News Article

A Third-Party "Secret Developer" Gives an Inside Story of Working on Wii U

Posted by Thomas Whitehead

"We would be lucky to make back all the money that we had invested"

One regular topic that can worry or frustrate Wii U owners is the issue of third-party support, particularly with retail content. While the Wii struggled to maintain third-party parity with its rivals — albeit with some excellent exclusives over its years — there was some hope that the Wii U would come closer to delivering a sizeable number of major third-party retail multi-platform games. That hope is gradually deteriorating as, at present, more and more projects skip the system.

There are various factors behind this, with the commercial struggles of the hardware being one, but it's intriguing to read from developers themselves why this may be the case. Digital Foundry — over at Eurogamer — has published the latest article in its "Secret Developers" series, this time with the focus on early-day development on the Wii U.

In attendance at an early reveal meeting at a major studio, the writer highlights how the unveiling of the GamePad was pleasing, but that Nintendo's desire that the system "wouldn't make much noise, so 'mum wouldn't mind having it in the living room'" was an early cause of concern.

Then the new controller was shown as a dummy prototype, complete with a glossy video showing how it could be used in games as a series of mock-ups, which looked exciting. By this point we were all considering how we could use the controller in our games. But then they revealed the internal details of the console and I realised the reason for my earlier alarm bells. If Nintendo wanted the hardware to have a small footprint and be quiet, they needed minimal fan noise, meaning that cooling was limited, which in turn meant that the CPU would have to produce a minimal amount of heat, which meant that the clock speed would have to be kept low. While I can't confirm specific details, the collective thoughts of the internet are presented for reference on Wikipedia.

The developer's early experiences on a technical level generally appear to have been frustrating, with lengthy processing times that would slow coding work. For example — "As a team, we lost days of time to the compile/link/debug overheads and this negatively impacted the amount of features that we could put into our game before the release date."

Perhaps the next segment is one of the most important in explaining why this developer and their major company had such a hard time early on, with documentation not up to scratch and lengthy communication time with Nintendo, while also outlining much of what's been said before about the CPU and GPU capabilities of the hardware.

Now that the game was up and running on the console we could start developing features that would use the new controllers and make our game stand out on the platform. But soon after starting this we ran into some issues that the (minimal) documentation didn't cover, so we asked questions of our local Nintendo support team. They didn't know the answers so they said they would check with the developers in Japan and we waited for a reply. And we waited. And we waited.

After about a week of chasing we heard back from the support team that they had received an answer from Japan, which they emailed to us. The reply was in the form of a few sentences of very broken English that didn't really answer the question that we had asked in the first place. So we went back to them asking for clarification, which took another week or so to come back. After the second delay we asked why it was taking to long for replies to come back from Japan, were they very busy? The local support team said no, it's just that any questions had to be sent off for translation into Japanese, then sent to the developers, who replied and then the replies were translated back to English and sent back to us. With timezone differences and the delay in translating, this usually took a week!

...As far as the CPU optimisations went, yes we did have to cut back on some features due to the CPU not being powerful enough. As we originally feared, trying to support a detailed game running in HD put a lot of strain on the CPUs and we couldn't do as much as we would have liked. Cutting back on some of the features was an easy thing to do, but impacted the game as a whole. Code optimised for the PowerPC processors found in the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 wasn't always a good fit for the Wii U CPU, so while the chip has some interesting features that let the CPU punch above its weight, we couldn't fully take advantage of them. However, some code could see substantial improvements that did mitigate the lower clocks - anything up to a 4x boost owing to the removal of Load-Hit-Stores, and higher IPC (instructions per cycle) via the inclusion of out-of-order execution.

On the GPU side, the story was reversed. The GPU proved very capable and we ended up adding additional "polish" features as the GPU had capacity to do it. There was even some discussion on trying to utilise the GPU via compute shaders (GPGPU) to offload work from the CPU - exactly the approach I expect to see gain traction on the next-gen consoles - but with very limited development time and no examples or guidance from Nintendo, we didn't feel that we could risk attempting this work. If we had a larger development team or a longer timeframe, maybe we would have attempted it, but in hindsight we would have been limited as to what we could have done before we maxed out the GPU again. The GPU is better than on PS3 or Xbox 360, but leagues away from the graphics hardware in the PS4 or Xbox One.

It seems that the approach to launch was challenging across the board. In terms of operating system and online capabilities Nintendo was "late - very late - with its network systems". The secret developer suggests that in this area, Nintendo was "trying to play catch-up with the rival systems, but without the years of experience to back it up." After much effort with the development, meanwhile, it's said that sales figures of the project in question were "less than impressive", and that "we would be lucky to make back all the money that we had invested in making the game in the first place". This naturally makes future projects from the company unlikely, barring a change in circumstances. The conclusion, unfortunately, isn't particularly positive.

There are some fleeting parallels between Wii U and the next-gen consoles - the combination of a low-power CPU with a much more powerful graphics chip - but the notion of next-gen titles being easily portable to the Wii U just doesn't work. The gulf in power is just too high, while the GPGPU that we'll see on Xbox One and PlayStation 4 isn't compatible with the older shader model four hardware found in the Wii U.

Doubtless, the first-party developers at Nintendo will make the hardware sing - they always do - but the situation looks grim for those of us in third-party development, with the opportunity to progress on the hardware held back by both the quality of the tools and the lack of financial reward for tailoring our code to the strengths of the hardware. So where does that leave the Wii U?

Personally I'm not sure on what will happen, but if the current trends continue, the Wii U will probably continue to sell in small quantities until a "must have" title is released, probably from a first-party studio, at which point the sales will sky rocket for a while - but even so, matching the momentum of PlayStation 4 and Xbox One seems highly unlikely. Other variables such as the recent news regarding China lifting the ban on games consoles may influence Nintendo's future direction. This huge untapped market may provide a lifeline in terms of sales, but with the low wages of the general population these sales might well come from the original Wii, rather than the more expensive Wii U.

Of course, this is the experience of an individual in one third-party company, but it reflects much of what's been said about retail development for Wii U. The secret developer does acknowledge that you can't discount Nintendo, but the issue of major third-party content is certainly an area of concern for the console.

We recommend reading the full article for more details, but let us know what you think of the topics raised in the comments below.

[via eurogamer.net]

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User Comments (307)

Samurairu

#1

Samurairu said:

Oh no, making tens of millions of dollars is hard to do. That gaming industry has it so hard..... I guess when you have a job considered a dream job to many, you take it for granted.

Warruz

#2

Warruz said:

To me its just interesting that the problem they had are the same problems PC devs have been dealing with for ages.

MrGawain

#3

MrGawain said:

Anyone willing to make a stab at what game is being talked about? Guessing first game in a series... made for PS3/Xbox 360... flashy graphics... features removed.

Any guesses?

Porky

#4

Porky said:

Of course 1st party titles coming from Nintendo is going to be almost flawless; they built the Wii U from the ground up and know it too well unlike 3rd party developers. It's much easier to make games for Sony and Microsoft systems.

Kifa

#7

Kifa said:

It seems that Nintendo got carried a little bit too far with their "gameplay first, hardware second" philosophy. Making a quiet, energy efficient and relatively cheap to manufacture system is one thing, but giving the developers something to work with is another. Still - I thinkt the Wii U is far from a flop, and more like a slight of hand...

@MrGawain - I'd bet a penny on Treyarch... ;P

element187

#8

element187 said:

@mrgawain launch title? Flashy graphics? Crappy sales? Mass Effect 3.

I didn't learn anything new here. You can squeeze a lot of resources out of the box but in a different way, that puts that troll lie of "its on par with the subhd twins" to bed. The weak CPU lie came from the poor documented toolkit. That issue has been resolved with better documentation on how to get the machine to outperform the cpu's in the xbox360/ps3.... We knew the GPU was several generations ahead of the subhd twins. That's expected when one system has a GPU from 2005 and a device comes along with a GPU from 2011, of course there is going to be 5 or 6 GPU generations in between them.

We already knew the development tools for the system weren't up to snuff until 6 months after release of the console. That documentation has improved considerably. The ps4/xBone are suffering from the same issues. Look at resolution gate where most games are sub 1080p and 30fps where a patch is coming at a later date to fix these issues because the documentation wasn't fully ready.

This is the Wii U's reality until more first party titles arrive. It will continue to be ignored until the install base grows. The only way the install base grows ifs if more games are released,but third party games won't come until the install base grows. So on goes the cycle. Lots of 1st and 2nd party games is the only way to reverse that trend.

MikeLove

#9

MikeLove said:

I'm waiting for SCAR392 to show up and explain to us why this developer is wrong

Shworange

#10

Shworange said:

It's definitely disheartening to hear. It shows that Nintendo really has to get better at cooperation and assistance. Waiting a week between communications is rediculous. As he pointed out, Nintendo will make fantastic first party games that will sell systems. That is true, but if Nintendo wants 3rd party support, it must show developers how it's done. Immediate feedback to questions and available developers to assisst important 3rd party developers and immediately necessary. If they can't fix that broken aspect of their business model, when the next system is released in 2017 (or so), the new developers meeting will be attended only by lonely cricket chirps.

akaDv8R

#11

akaDv8R said:

This is ! developer, who wishes to remain "secret", if they exist at all. For one, other developers have said, making games for Wii U is not too difficult, and that they are now getting to grips with how to use the GPGPU properly. In the first year or so of ANY new console, you never see the "best" it is able to produce, not even from 1st party developers. Judging from their launch titles and how they perform, neither the PS4 or Xbox ONE is mind blowing. They took the easy route, and just copied what current gaming PC`s are using inside. Nintendo will bounce back from this, as Sony did with the bad launch of the PS3. Besides, where would Microsoft and Sony get their ideas without Nintendo?

HiroshiYamauchi

#13

HiroshiYamauchi said:

If Nintendo strengthen their first-party and second-party studios i'll be a happy Wii U owner, i have a PC, a PS3 and a PS4 to backup my third-party titles needs.

element187

#14

element187 said:

@Kifa doubt its Treyarch. Call of duty doesn't need very many resources to run. It has to be mass effect 3 or funky barn.

:::looks at the sales of blops2 on Wii u:::: if you can't profit off of a port from a quarter million in sales, you have bigger issues.

Peach64

#15

Peach64 said:

The most surprising bits for me are the requests for help being sent to Japan, translated, responses being translated, which all sounds like one of those stories you heard of how hard it was to work with Japanese companies in the 80's and early 90's, and the part about NOBODY on the Wii U design team knowing how other online systems worked.

Between this and Emily Roger's great History of the Gamecube article, it's pretty clear Nintendo still treats third parties like dirt, so it's no wonder none of them are willing to throw away money on Wii U games. Such a contrast to Sony who went around devs at the very start to ask them how they could make a machine that was easy to make games for.

cyrus_zuo

#16

cyrus_zuo said:

As much as I'd love a more powerful system, why would it increase sales?
The bias against Nintendo is not b/c of system power and being more powerful would simply cost Nintendo more money...which means losing more money.

There are 2 power focused systems already. Competing w/them by providing the same experience is a terrible strategy. Nintendo's approach of doing something unique is the right way to handle the situation. They need to be different to compete, that is the lesson of the N64 & GCN. Unfortunately, they may have picked the wrong uniqueness w/WiiU, but a more powerful console is a more wrong approach. You can't compete where your competitor's are already dominating.

GN004Nadleeh

#17

GN004Nadleeh said:

nintendo has always been about first party games anyways and that is where they shine. so while i am having fun playing wind waker hd others are still shooting each other in another skin of cod and it will go on forever like that.

akaDv8R

#18

akaDv8R said:

Yes, Sony worked so hard making the PS4. Let`s see, right, that is what a gaming PC has inside, let us stick it in a box, and put SONY on it...... brilliant. Does ANYBODY remember the PS3 launch? No, short term memory "fanboyism" loss maybe? lol. Ask anyone at Ubisoft, Two Tribes, Shinen or countless others how hard the Wii U is to develop on, and, how Nintendo are constantly in touch with such companies offering tech support. You read 1 or 2 articles, and you doom the most successful console company in history. Nintendo must be so hard to work with, that is probably why they only shifted just over 11 million 3DS consoles last year, that explains it..... my bad.

LetsGoRetro

#19

LetsGoRetro said:

Things like this are upsetting. Nintendo has been a giant in this industry for near 3 decades, so they should have multiple contacts with every relevant company. They should design their hardware by either consulting other companies about where the industry's heading, or at the very least keeping them in mind.

They're placing priority on the thing being NOISY over keeping it friendly for third parties? The thing can make a 56k dialup connection modem noise the whole time it plays if it means more great games are coming to it.

Nintendo is still the best software developer around, but not by a huge margin anymore. There are lots of good ones that we shoulen't have to miss. I'm sick of blaming third parties for being lazy. Nintendo is the stubborn one.

Nintendo is the kid at the dance standing in the corner, staring at the wall and we, it's friends are telling everyone at the dance "It's YOUR fault for not going out of your way to go talk to him." No, it's not. it's his fault for choosing to be a loner, especially in a school he was the most popular kid in for quite a while.

This gen, everyone needs a PS, and only Nintendo fans need a wii u. I love mine, but I totally understand those who don't.

thanos316

#20

thanos316 said:

this isn't five years ago. nintendo knew that they had to come out with something much better than the wii was at the time. this is something that they are a little nieve about. what sold today won't necessarily sell tomorrow. i love the wii but im not sold on the wii u. the best controller ive ever played with is the wii mote and nunchuck. nintendo for the wii u needed to add more power for devs and still be creative. they got one part right but not the power part. im sure the wii u kicks out some good graphics but some devs wants the power to do anything..

SetupDisk

#21

SetupDisk said:

Why all of that might be true it's hard to rely on the words and opinons of a coward.

Artwark

#22

Artwark said:

The thing about the Wii U is that it is a different system in its own. So devs are forced to get creative with the thing and I think its really paying off.

Bizzyb

#23

Bizzyb said:

The thing to realize here is that this was EARLY development where devs are still trying to figure out the hardware. That's the case with ALL new hardware.

Also, there ALWAYS going to have to be cuts made to games due to specs and cpu strength etc. MGS 2 had to cut down texture quality and other effects to maintain 60fps. PS3 and 360 games had to have effects and such cut in certain games. Its not limited to Wii U as if all other systems have infinite power.

Developers who complain about lack of power usually have the least talent and need a scapegoat for their shortcomings. Look at devs like Shin'en. You don't see them complaining.

akaDv8R

#24

akaDv8R said:

People are saying Nintendo needs to put its best selling IP`s on other platforms. WTF, that is what makes them so unique. There is nothing to touch Mario, Mario Kart, Zelda, Donkey Kong (unlucky Microsoft lol), PikMin etc.etc. And now news that a new Metroid game may be in the early stages!!!!! Seriously, when it comes to forward thinking, innovation and 1st class game design, Nintendo leads the way. Yes, they need to improve their Network, party and cross-game chat should have been a given. But, I believe that some of these will be addressed this year.

Sidewinder

#25

Sidewinder said:

@akaDv8R
Many Ubisoft games have multiple issues. AC3/4 have huge frame rate drops. AC3's online was broken for 10 months before they fixed it. AC4 has extreme difficulty finding a match when you're in a party.
Splinter Cell has so many frame drops, they couldn't get split screen working on the system, and if you try to play the competitive online mode your Wii U crashes. Yeah, they really know what they're doing.
The only Ubisoft game that has impressed me is Rayman Legends, and I have every Ubi game on the system except for Just Dance..

Sidewinder

#26

Sidewinder said:

Also, people. The mainstream gaming audience doesn't want Nintendo franchises anymore.

akaDv8R

#27

akaDv8R said:

Either you are unlucky or something else. My AC4 works fine. With lots happening on screen, it may drop a frame or two, but appart from that, works fine. Splinter Cell Backlist, again, split screen ok. Also, you are talking about games released within the first year of a consoles life. ALL developers are getting used to it, and as each game is created, they learn more about its strengths and its weakness. If it was that hard, why would Ubisoft still be developing for it. Can you remember the amount of updates both the 360 and PS3 had to have for Blacklist????????

akaDv8R

#28

akaDv8R said:

By mainstream, you mean 12-18 year old gamers, who have been brought up on a diet of COD, Modern Warfare and GTA????

Tsurii897

#29

Tsurii897 said:

@Sidewinder the mainstream gaming audience sucks anyway. I just see it the way, that we won't have to bother with as many choleric 13yearolds in our communities as the people on PSN/XBox Live etc.

Also regarding that Ubisoft topic, you mentioned: I had NEVER any problems with AC3 or 4. And seriously...if you buy games like that for their mediocre online-features, you're playing the wrong games...

akaDv8R

#31

akaDv8R said:

When I was still in the British Army, any time we had to ourselves.... out came either the Ds or 3Ds or Game Boys. Not a PS console or hand-held in sight. Are you saying the British Army is made up of kids and idiots???

MAB

#32

MAB said:

Another one of these nerdy MicroSonyNintenbot click bait article battles ;)

Untitled

Peach64

#34

Peach64 said:

@akaDv8R

Citing Shin'en is not a great example. They've never worked on any hardware but Nintendo. The point is not that it's hard to make games ground up on Wii U, it's that it's hard to port them. Devs are not gonna make games ground up for Wii U because no games sell enough to make that money back.

Sony had EXACTLY the same problem with the PS3. Skipped over by Bioshock, Mass Effect and so many others.

Kifa

#35

Kifa said:

@element187 But ME3 had no cuts in graphics and game logic, it only lacked in terms of DLC. Heck, it even looked better than on PS3, so it's most certainly NOT this. I bet on Treyarch because how BLOPS2 underperforms in terms of framerate, but still... If it's not them, I can't think of any other dev/title...

PokeTune

#36

PokeTune said:

How can a company that has survived this long in the industry be so out of touch with reality? Seriously, NCL needs a MAJOR shakeup.

akaDv8R

#37

akaDv8R said:

New CEO @ Microsoft, "Of course we would sell our console division and Bing"!!!! Inspires confidence.... both of which are bleeding Microsoft millions. 3 years ago, Microsoft console division had nearly 20 billion in reserves, now, it is around 7 billion in debt. they have already said they will not make any money of the ONE for at least 18 months. Both Sony and Nintendo could, bit wouldn`t, afford to loose around 100 million U.S. dollors a year for the next 4-60 years. Xbox ONE is make or break as far as consoles are concerned for Microsoft.

edhe

#38

edhe said:

So there you have it. No more big name third party games on the Wii U. GG, Nintendo.

LDXD

#41

LDXD said:

Thing that is disheartening when they ask for help and have to wait weeks to hear back from Nintendo and they get a response sent back to them in broken English that doesn't even answer the question in the first place, Wow wtf? :o

akaDv8R

#42

akaDv8R said:

Is that even true though? Why do they wish to remain "SECRET". ? Why not come out openly and admit it? So much easier to create a story about a company, when you do not have to give their name lol.

Wolfgabe

#43

Wolfgabe said:

I figured you people are lapping up this flame bait hook line and sinker. We don't really know who is the developer that is talking and there are a couple of errors. It says Wii U CPU is made on a 55nm process but its actually 45. There was thread on this at WiiU Daily you should see Quinton McLeods post in it its quite informative

Wolfgabe

#44

Wolfgabe said:

When you look at a game like Project Cars which is being developed for X1, PS4, and Wii U, it doesn't take a genius to see that the real problem is developer laziness

TravisTouchdown

#45

TravisTouchdown said:

Developers are just lazy when it comes to Nintendo. Most of them want to see Nintendo take the same road as Sega and put minimal effort into developing games for them. This couldn't have been more clear during the days of the Wii. There were some solid 3rd party games, such as No More Heroes, those along with 1st party titles like Super Mario Galaxy shown that the Wii was a good system that devs could do great things on.

But what happened? A lot of sloppy ports and only if the game was also ported to PS2 most of the time. Dev cause their own problems on Wii U.

akaDv8R

#46

akaDv8R said:

Do you honestly believe a company that has been going since around 1885, is so out of touch? they would not have lasted long if they did not listen to and help devs who wish to launch on its consoles.

Wolfgabe

#48

Wolfgabe said:

Code optimised for the PowerPC processors found in the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 wasn't always a good fit for the Wii U CPU. This pretty much says what I and many others have been saying. Developers don't optimize their games well for Wii U and they just treat it like PS3 and 360 which doesn't work well

bonham2

#49

bonham2 said:

We have heard this argument before. This is just more detail. We know certain companies felt this way. If we're looking at a 3rd party developer that ported a game from PS3/360 to Wii U and was unhappy with the returns, I would think of 3 games/developers.

Ninja Gaiden 3 - this was developed by Tecmo Koei, so I think they speak Japanese.

Darksiders 2 - made by THQ, certainly possible but I didn't hear anything about missing features or even them complaining at all. Also, they didn't have tons of ideas for the gamepad that this developer mentioned.

And finally, Madden 13 - EA has been complaining about the Wii U since day 1. They had to drop tons of features that were on other systems and the game performed noticeably worse on Wii U than on other systems. That's my guess.

LDXD

#50

LDXD said:

@akaDv8R Nintendo has always had a communication problem, stubborn and don't listen to anyone
They've lasted this long because of their IPs not because of their communication skills and user friendly consoles

BinaryFragger

#53

BinaryFragger said:

I love all these "3rd-party developers are" lazy comments. If you were a developer, would YOU spend millions developing a game for a console that has a relatively-small install base? It doesn't help that people here are constantly saying they buy Nintendo consoles only to play Nintendo games. If these "lazy" developers DID make Wii U games, I bet none of you would even buy them.

You often hear game developers talk about their passion in developing games, but ultimately, the game industry is a business. They go where the money is; the 3DS has great 3rd-party support because the 3DS is flying off store shelves.

Kaze_Memaryu

#54

Kaze_Memaryu said:

Sounds troublesome, but they xhould've seen some stuff coming.
First off, comparing WiiU with Xbone and PS4 makes no sense, they're not the same approach.
Secondly, Nintendo has no interest in competing with PC's, so their consoles' structure obviously differs greatly from Sony and Microsoft platforms.
Also, every console in history had documentation and dev support issues. Can't expect them to do everything perfect - they're just human, after all.
Then they even tell us that the WiiU generally is more powerful than PS3/360 but complain about the difference to next-gen - completely pointless, since those titles are too big for WiiU to handle.

In the end, all those complaints sound like our 'secret developer' expected no changes to their workflow, which is absolutely delusional. Console business has no place for easy money - you gotta work for it. And while the WiiU still needs to step up in terms of sales, the general rule still applies:

"If you can't make profit, you're doing it wrong."

MikeLove

#55

MikeLove said:

@akaDv8R

So as to not further damage relations with Nintendo or other companies? Plus, this employee is likely doing this on his own accord, and not with the blessings of the developer he works for, so he is not going to put his own job in jeopardy. It's not hard to understand.

PikminWorld

#56

PikminWorld said:

An interesting story. I'm curious though if Nintendo would be willing to help other developers understand their hardware like they do. I don't know how that'd work like if they'd give kind of a step by step guide or a blueprint kind of guide but it would certainly help them avoid problems like these.

MikeLove

#57

MikeLove said:

@Kaze_Memaryu

"If you can't make profit, you're doing it wrong."

The Wonderful 101 was one of the best games of the year and sold like 7,000 copies. Please, do tell us what Platinum Games did "wrong" while developing that title? Thanks.

McGruber

#58

McGruber said:

I read the whole article and it was a very good read. At this point I am not surprised by anything though, except that nobody at Nintendo used Live or PSN. I also think this person hit the nail on the head in terms of the future of WiiU. It will sell in small quantities until Nintendo puts out a killer app, but even then it won't match PS4/One sales and real 3rd party support is all but gone regardless. Maybe Nintendo will learn from this and really give us the console we want next time.

hosokawasamurai

#59

hosokawasamurai said:

@bonham2

Ninja Gaiden 3? Team Ninja leader Yosuke Hayashi said multiple times the Wii U was easy to develop. And he also said he is interrested in making a new Wii U game that isn't a PS3/360 port.

If you're referring to the multiplat release of Razor's Edge, that was probably planned before the Wii U version came out. There were even retailers listing "Ninja Gaiden Sigma 3" for PS3/360.Team Ninja nowadays loves re-releasing games. Just see Dead or Alive 5, Dead or Alive 5 Plus and now Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate.

Don't know about the other games you mentioned, though...

AugustusOxy

#60

AugustusOxy said:

This doesn't worry me-- I don't expect nintendo to depend on high label third party support.

Where the Wii-u will shine is in the same area in which the wii shined, in games that can't be made on other consoles because of its unique control scheme.

Plus Japanese developers will actually be able to AFFORD to develope for the 'under powered console' because its far cheaper to do so.

I don't expect a Nintendo console to operate like a sony console, it wouldn't be nintendo then. I'm sorry if that is what others want, but it just wont happen.

Besides, they are still dominating in the handheld market and more than likely always will.

BinaryFragger

#61

BinaryFragger said:

@TravisTouchdown

Despite being a great game, No More Heroes didn't exactly ignite the sales charts. The game apparently sold a little over half a million copies, which is not very good considering the Wii's huge install base. It's the same story with MadWorld; great game with excellent reviews but nobody bought it.
People keep complaining about the lack of 3rd-party support but when a company finally does release a game on a Nintendo console, nobody buys it.

sadsack777

#62

sadsack777 said:

please third-party devs carnt get wii u working up to the next gens look at Bayonetta 2, running at 60fps. now come on who spending time on wii u and whos not u tell me

MamaLuigi

#64

MamaLuigi said:

I don't see how this differs from, say, talking on a forum and getting a straight response from another member, which never seems to happen. :/

Peach64

#65

Peach64 said:

@sadsack777 Please read the article. Nobody is saying you can't get good looking games on Wii U. The developer says that Nintendo first party stuff is going to look great, because they don't have any worries about needing to make a profit.

The developer, like so many others, is commenting on the difficulty of porting games from other consoles to the Wii U. Bayonetta 2 is probably going to lose money, just like Wonderful 101 did, but it doesn't matter because Nintendo paid for it all. 3rd parties don't have that luxury. They can't make games only for the Wii U. At this point it costs so much money to even port a game that they won't make it back.

W1totalk

#66

W1totalk said:

Project Cars is coming. In the end, and the careful time Slightly Mad has taken to make the game, if you like racing games, will it be worth it? I have seen some of the work put into that game and it is a beast. Can Wii U owners be patience and content with not only solid graphics but great gameplay? if Project Cars proves to be that?

BinaryFragger

#67

BinaryFragger said:

@FutureAlphaMale

The Wonderful 101 is a perfect example of why 3rd-parties are shunning the Wii U. People said they were excited for the game, Nintendo Life rated the it 9/10, and then, nobody bought it.
This was the second time Platinum Games got burned by Nintendo fans because MadWorld was a sales flop too.

ExtraVinegary

#68

ExtraVinegary said:

Whatever man, I usually only buy 2nd and 1st party games on consoles anyway. I leave 3rd party for my PC because I can buy them for less then $10 on Steam, which is usually what these games are worth.

LUIGITORNADO

#69

LUIGITORNADO said:

@MrGawain

Arkham City.

Anyway. This is really too bad. Third parties are a business and if they don't see it profitable for developing their games on Nintendo systems then they won't do it. Nintendo really needs to switch it on high gear in that front. It won't be a change that happens overnight, but they need to stop being so closed off to the rest of the world.

I don't think having a beefier system with architecture more similar to the other next gen console would have guaranteed support, but it would have got rid of a road block.

LUIGITORNADO

#71

LUIGITORNADO said:

@Peach64

Like dirt? You're getting a little dramatic there, bub. They clearly have communication issues, which need to be worked on, but it's not like we're hearing that they are replying with scathing comments or whatever.

My concern is why a Western dev team was put into contact with Japan instead of someone at NoA. Nintendo lives too much in a box. It's too bad Nintendo doesn't utilize Retro more in that regards: Communication.

Peach64

#72

Peach64 said:

Project Cars is another that does not have to worry about sales figures. It's crowd funded. They have been paid their money and are now using it on the game, so they don't need to hope the sales come in to cover everything. Nobody is saying Wii U can't produce great games, there's plenty of examples to show they can.

Caryslan

#73

Caryslan said:

@akaDv8R The PS3's issues at launch was exactly the reason why they went with the approach of using PC hardware and trying to cater to Third-Party's wishes as much as they could. The PS3 lost a good amount of support with games that were exclusives on the PS2 and PS1 and they lost a massive lead to Microsoft which they finally began to overcome last year.

Maybe we aren't being told the full story, but Sony and Microsoft are getting third-parties lined up to develop games on the PS4 and Xbox One. The Wii U for all intents and purposes is still having trouble selling itself to third-party developers. Many are either unwilling to take the plunge, or have no interest with working with Nintendo.

Third-party games are not selling on the Wii U, and unless this trend reverses nothing will change.

And yes, 11 million 3DS systems sold in a year is impressive, but what does it matter for Nintendo home console business? Since the Game Boy, their handhelds have always been strong sellers. And let's be honest, there is virtually no competition for the 3DS. The PSP is an old system that's long past its prime, the Vita is still struggling, and there are no other handhelds out there that can compete. The argument could be made that smart phones games are a threat, but the market is so different from the one the 3DS is aimed at, there's not really much overlap.

The home console market is a different story. Nintendo is facing two competitors who have a strong presence in the market. You played up the 3DS' numbers, but here's something to keep in mind. The PS4 has already sold 4.2 Million units, while the Xbox One is around 3 million. They are close to surpassing the number of units the Wii U has already sold.

What incentive is there to make third-party games on the Wii U?

Every time a story like this appears, people either assume the third-party companies in question are either being paid off or are involved in a major conspiracy to throw Nintendo out of he market.

This is not a new problem. Nintendo has had trouble getting third-parties onboard since the N64. Yes, we hear praise from indies and some major third-party companies, but does Nintendo treat all of them the same way? Sony went and asked developers what they wanted in a console. They asked for their input with the PS4.

Nintendo on the other hand, likely did the same thing they have always done. Built their hardware for their games above all else. It's not a bad approach, but in an era where third-parties games are getting more expensive to produce, its not going to win them much support, especially when more time and effort(money for companies that they stand to lose) could be lost making a port that might not even sell.

Especially when the core hardware of the Wii U is radically different from what the rest of the market is using.

LUIGITORNADO

#74

LUIGITORNADO said:

@BinaryFragger

It's not the fault of fans for not picking it up. It's Nintendo's fault for not marketing the game. All I saw were a couple of ads taken out on GI. Where were all the commercials on CN or WB Saturday mornings? None I bet. And Nintendo expected it to be a soft sell because the shipped the game in low amounts.

Kaze_Memaryu

#76

Kaze_Memaryu said:

@FutureAlphaMale Mostly a lack of advertising. The vast majority of promotion was limited to videos on WiiU and 3DS. If you didn't have either, odds are you've never heard of it until release. The game needed marketing on TV, in magazines, on websites, just somewhere. I have yet to see a banner ad for W101, or a promo page in a games magazine.

GiacomoHall

#78

GiacomoHall said:

People are far too sensitive, including this developer. It's just business; from Nintendo's perspective third-party games are a low priority because they usually sell poorly and therefore do not generate much in terms of licensing revenue, there just isn't enough profit when compared to their own first-party franchises. From the third-party puiblishers' perspective, their games don't usually sell as well on Nintendo consoles so the funds allocated for those versions are low, compromising game quality and damaging sales. Add in the weak Wii U sales performance and you have a vicious circle of Nintendo not commiting to third-party publishers and vice-versa; it has been this way since the N64 and will probably continue to be this way in future.

open

#79

open said:

So basically this is what my understanding of the situation is:

The PS4/Xbox1 asked how to make the system easier to develop for - and basically they said "Like a P.C!". The devs have been making games for p.c. for years at even higher specs so they KNOW how to push it to it's limits from DAY 1. Smart move.

The Wii U didn't - this results in Devs being unable to port multiplat games without putting in a lot of effort (and basically rewriting the whole game)*.

For the few that actually put the effort in and develop a game from the ground - exclusives and 1st/2nd party games - up we will see 1) great games and 2) a larger increase in graphics over time than the other 2 as devs work out how to maximise the hardware.

*They would do this if the console was selling well and they could make money - but even the games they do release they don't market well (CoD:Ghosts/AC4 for exampe)

ULTRA-64

#80

ULTRA-64 said:

@Kifa I was thinking they were on about zombie u at first but if it's a port then maybe darksiders 2 as I know thus had allot if glitches and problems. Also, since thq went bust.....a lot of devs with nothing to do but dodgy interviews!!

TrueWiiMaster

#81

TrueWiiMaster said:

In reality, how often to launch games end up profitable? I mean, looking at Xbox One launch games, only one title hit 1 million sales. With multiplats, other versions can cover the development cost, but exclusives don't have that advantage. Dead Rising 3 only hit 0.6 million so far, for example. Though it will definitely sell more, sales will decline from here. For perspective, ZombiU sold about 0.6 million, and Ubisoft said it didn't even break even. ZombiU should have been cheaper to make than Dead Rising 3.

Genesaur

#82

Genesaur said:

"We would be lucky to make back all the money that we had invested." isn't that true of just about every game, book, movie, or just about any consumer entertainment project ever?

unrandomsam

#85

unrandomsam said:

Consoles should be total silent I agree with that. (Both of my Wii's make far too much noise.) Gamecube was fine incidently.

unrandomsam

#86

unrandomsam said:

@akaDv8R Breaking an NDA which is not something you want to do. (Somehow the guy making Fez seems to have got away with quite a bit when it comes to that sort of thing though).

unrandomsam

#88

unrandomsam said:

@GiacomoHall They do commit to 3rd parties the ones worth having making quality exclusives on Nintendo usually end up with Nintendo either buying outright or taking a large stake in the company. That is much more commitment then Microsoft or Sony give. (I suspect they just offer lower licensing fees for the big games because they both require them but I dunno.)

bizcuthammer

#89

bizcuthammer said:

So now that we've heard the real story from a 3rd party developer who actually did try making games for WiiU... And we learned the truth that WiiU is low on power and hard to develop for, and even for some reason only known to Nintendo, hard to create ports of last gen games on....

Can we stop pretending like its all 3rd parties' fault that WiiU isnt selling like PS4?! Seriously, even the good 3rd party games that make it to WiiU like Need for Speed and Splinter Cell sell pitifully on WiiU, making these ports not worth it cause its obvious to 3rd parties that WiiU owners apparantly dont want them.

No, WiiU is Nintendo's failure alone. By making a console yet again that is nowhere near as powerful as its rivals, and by making it stupid hard to develop for and port games to, they've failed to understand the direction the gaming industry is moving in (which to be fair isnt a new thing for them).

And for all the fanboys saying 'its not all about the graphics,' just stop. We all know that if WiiU had the best tech, not only would that make the games on it look way better, but fanboys like you would be shouting from rooftops that WiiU has 'all teh powerz.'. So dont unnecessarily defend Nintendo when they unnecessarily handicap their system to the point where no one wants to make games for it.

Nintendo had better learn from their mistakes this time, like Sony did with PS3, and make a console that people actually want next gen. That or they need to quit and go handheld only, and then make console games as a 3rd party for Sony.

Technosphile

#90

Technosphile said:

The best thing Nintendo could do in the future is focus more on the western market, and take note of how Sony and Microsoft cater to western devs. Clearly, niche Japanese-y stuff like The Wonderful 101 does not sell consoles.

Couldn't hurt either to fire "The Yes Man" Reggie, and install someone at NoA with some guts and gumption, who can see what works in the West and guide Kyoto accordingly.

JarredBuzzo

#91

JarredBuzzo said:

Assuming this "anonymous developer" really did work on a Wii U game, it makes you wonder which one it is. How come some studios working on Wii U games talk about the system like it's a dream to develop for (Criterion) while others (the studio for Metro and various other "anonymous studios") trash talk the system? I think some of these people may not actually be developers, but reps from certain companies that don't want Nintendo to succeed and some of them are legit, the problem is knowing which ones are which. I'm not saying Wii U is the perfect system and every developer needs to flock to it, but I'm left inquiring about those that talk about Nintendo like they're great (of which there are many) vs. the ones that say things like the people in this one.

Those are my thoughts, not that you care.

Anguspuss

#92

Anguspuss said:

So they had issues with Nintendos off the shelf cpu. But didnt have a problem with the notorious difficult cell cpu of the ps3.

What makes this & other developers comments strange as AC4 & Splinter Cell seem to run quite well on this inferior cpu.

JarredBuzzo

#93

JarredBuzzo said:

@bizcuthammer "That or they need to quit and go handheld only, and then make console games as a 3rd party for Sony."
That's actually counter-intuitive, if they keep making handheld devices, but make console games for ANY other device, that will give people less of an incentive to buy the handheld. Think about it, people would just say "why can I buy X game on my PS4 but I can't just get Y game on my smartphone, tablet or other Non-Nintendo device" and not buy the thing.

Prof_Clayton

#94

Prof_Clayton said:

This is obviously by EA. They were with Wii U from the beginning, raising it up like a child, then dropped it day 1.
They left many things out too.
If its EAs, I'd say they couldn't program it from stupidity over the hardware's fault. Games can be ported just fine. They have been before.
They basically said, "Wii U won't do the work for us. Who wants to spend money to make games? Let's go to Sony where we watch them make games for us for pennies, and make millions."

vattodev

#95

vattodev said:

@BinaryFragger On the other hand, as a customer that bought some games with missing features, I find it very deserving that they had low sales. Splinter Cell comes to mind easily. Online is still broken and it has been several months already. How would you call that? Assassin's creed 3 at least had it fixed after some time. Yes, that's lazy. They deserve the bad reputation they created.

Anguspuss

#96

Anguspuss said:

Dont think its in Nintendos interest to publish on any other format. Plus so many people that are writing off the wii u arent they the same that said handheld gaming was dead & the 3ds would be a failure.

It does look like that has been the case for the 3ds.

Zach

#99

Zach said:

It's hard to put ourselves in Ehhh Aaahhhh some anonymous company....'s shoes.... I think the problem here is infrastructural incompatibility. EA praises certain features very highly, and their ability to port is a must because XBox One and PS4 are better for this and sell better. Fine! Great! You know what we have then? Great games of a large variety that differs greatly between two systems. And perhaps this larger gulf in design requirements and gameplay variety will spawn two different, overlapping consumer bases! There are some great games made by great teams whose companies have really business-minded, inelegant and inartistic CEOs and such. Maybe one day it won't make one such a pariah to consider having one or two systems — say, the Wii U and the PS4 — and get one type of game on one console, and a completely different one on another. Why must we bicker over the fate of two gigantic companies whose philosophies don't align? It would be like being mad at Dove Soap to not make oatmeal because they just can't do it on their machines, but your feelings are hurt because you considered yourself such a Dove devotee that your desire for niche oatmeal made by a soap company was so strong and you believed others felt the same way. "Our machinery doesn't process oatmeal, and no one wants to buy oatmeal that may or may not taste like soap!" they would say, and the subject of this hypothetical situation might respond, "Cowards!" I just think it's all very silly and a waste of time to take such a personal stake in it. OK IM RANTING LOLOLOLOL BYE!

hosokawasamurai

#100

hosokawasamurai said:

@vattodev

Splinter Cell's online issues on "Spies vs. Mercs" are the smallest problem. I find the missing split-screen multiplayer, the super-long load times and the abscence of the option to install highter quality textures much worse.

The Wii U owners surely got burned by Ubisoft on this one. It was clearly a rushed game with no effort at all.

umegames

#102

umegames said:

at the end of the day no developer can use "the systems limitations" as an excuse, because Nintendo has been able to fully utilize the hardware.

This was my same argument on PS3, how is it that naughty dog with 3 games, uncharted 1 - 3 can make a near flawless, glitchless, no loading , consistant frames, game, but others can't???

These developers need to stop.

bloodycelt

#104

bloodycelt said:

From looking at the various internet articles, the reason the WiiU is hard to port titles to is the limited data transfer. As far as I can tell, the bottleneck is getting the textures over to the GPU and CPU. This is why the developer mentioned leveraging shaders, because you could do some of the textures as code rather than loading them from disc.
When they realized this, they didn't have the time for their current project to try and leverage that.

They are correct, making a game on the WiiU is going to require optimization to get around this rather large flaw. This is not laziness, its trying to make your time efficient so you can make a profit, and continue making games.

I think Nintendo would be better off buying more development teams as 2nd party devs, to fill out what they are missing. If they can get systems sold, and a decent collection of games for each demographic, the WiiU will do well.

CaPPa

#105

CaPPa said:

I don't think that the higher skilled developers have trouble with the Wii U, it's more the 'cut n paste' type devs that struggle.

I really like the Wii U design with its small form factor, low footprint, quiet and cool. Compared to my scorching hot PS3 or noisy 360 the console is a dream. Most people don't care about those things though and would prefer a desk melting juice sucking jet engine sounding system that can render more realistic blades of grass.

Artwark

#106

Artwark said:

@LetsGoRetro While I can agree that their policies are annoying to most people, keep in mind that devs like Ubisoft and Next level games are fond of Nintendo and will continue to support them.

Tysamu

#107

Tysamu said:

That doesn't tell me something new as this was a central issue during early to mid 2013. This however reinforces one philosophy I came up with roughly a year or so ago. Never put a release date on your game while it's in development because of stuff like this.

gatorboi352

#108

gatorboi352 said:

Keep trying to tell you people, the 3rd party situation on Nintendo consoles are the fault of Nintendo and the demographic that buys Nintendo consoles.

WaveWarlock

#109

WaveWarlock said:

@MAB
That gif made me LOL, but then i puked a little after skimming by all of these Bait biting mini novel posts. :P By the bayside, ins't the saturn considered one of the toughest consoles to develop on? thought i heard that somewhere.

Anguspuss

#110

Anguspuss said:

CaPPa said:I really like the Wii U design with its small form factor, low footprint, quiet and cool. Compared to my scorching hot PS3 or noisy 360 the console is a dream. Most people don't care about those things though and would prefer a desk melting juice sucking jet engine sounding system that can render more realistic blades of grass.

I had one of those called a pc when I ran three screen eyefinity set up. Baby girl kinda changed priorities. I love low power use & quite wii u. Plus the off screen play is great

midnafanboy

#111

midnafanboy said:

well nintendo does not care anymore about third party support it only has ubisoft as a third party developer and they said thats enough. now they are thinking they are on there own now they better bring the games that made them famous and maybe the third party support might come back not likely.

LDXD

#113

LDXD said:

@umegames Nintendo can fully utilize the hardware because they created it and understand in more than anyone
And not all developers are as talented and naughty or Nintendo
It wouldn't have hurt them to come up with a console that was easier to work with but I don't think Nintendo is really bothered by this

b23cdq

#114

b23cdq said:

This would be more believable if it wasn't for the numerous devs who have stated pulicly that the Wii U is easy to develop for. Are we to forget that when an anonymous person who claims to have developed a Wii U game claims it's difficult?

vattodev

#115

vattodev said:

@LDXD: No, Nintendo will make great games because the problem is not their hardware. The problem is that PS3/360 games are CPU intensive and most devs are not willing to rewrite a lot of code to put the work that should be done in the GPU to the GPU. And now that the PS4/XBO require the same changes they say that the Wii U is too underpowered when compared. It's weird, because most of these games play on PC too and PC games are well known for scaling graphics according to your video card.

Kroisos

#116

Kroisos said:

@bonham2 My guess is Darksiders 2. I remember an interview on dromble.com with one of the Vigil guys, and he called the Wii U a 360 7 years late, even though he also admitted he hadn't worked on the system, and was happy that he hadn't. The thing is, I played the original Darksiders on PS3, and nothing about the game suggested any sort of technical effort. Rather, I got the feeling they wanted as much power as possible so they could do what they wanted with minimal work.

AdanVC

#117

AdanVC said:

This was probably an EA developer. He(or she) talk about developing for Wii U like if it was a truly nightmare wich I don't believe at all... Maybe the part when they are trying to contact Nintendo for technical advice is true due to the fact that Nintendo is a mistery house when it comes to Japan developers and they would not share anything that can risk a leak of it's "magic" that all of their 1st-Party titles have... but it's sad that they behave like that even with 3rd-Party devs when it's extremely important to give them all the necessary resources to create their games on the console.

Sigh, hopefully this first year of Wii U makes Iwata to change a little bit that concept and being more open-minded to 3rd Party devs and allow them to literally "go crazy" with the hardware and give them all the necessary tools.

LDXD

#118

LDXD said:

@vattodev the problem isn't the hardware for Nintendo because they understand it
The problem seems to be that its difficult to port and develop games for the Wii u, in turn raising development cost even further than what they already are. This is a big problem in the gaming industry its why we aren't seeing to many developers take risk, we are getting shorter and shorter games, micro transactions and so on. This type of stuff is only going to get worse

Link41x

#119

Link41x said:

I was taking this article seriously until I read that Xbox One had momentum.....Now that was funny.

jcags

#120

jcags said:

@sadsack777 look at how much it has taken for that game to be developed, this other dev didn't have that much of a timeframe.

JaxonH

#122

JaxonH said:

@King47

Yes, I suppose that's a fair statement, but at the same time, they have to make a choice: make a console for 3rd parties, or make a console for themselves. Seeing as it's the 1st party content that sells Nintendo systems over 3rd party content, it's understandable that's the direction they went with.

I would like to point out that yes, developing for consoles is always a stiff task. Always has been. As someone above so rightly stated, no one complained about the Cell Architecture. And now we're hearing companies like Capcom state that PS4 development requires 8-10 times the amount of work. So sure, Wii U development might not be a walk in the park, but neither is any of the other consoles. Only reason they don't complain about PS3/360 is they've been doing it so many years.

shingi_70

#123

shingi_70 said:

@AugustusOxy

Most if these japaneae developers your talking about have petty much said they're sticking with the PS3 and moving to PS4 for console games. Were seeing a lot of cross gen games where a game is coming out on both and guys like Namco and Falcom are working on PS4 games.

Kifa

#124

Kifa said:

@ULTRA-64 Oh, that. I forgot that this game was on Wii U. And if it is Darksiders 2 and former Vigil employee, then all I can say is: lame excuses. I have both Darksiders games on PC (which is a fairly powerful machine I might add) and both games are glitchy, slow, unstable and looking just plain horrible at times. No wonder they couldn't get Wii U right if they couldn't even write proper PC port with all the superfulous horsepower those have... ;)

shingi_70

#125

shingi_70 said:

@JaxonH
To be honest I feel like Capxom is full of it and want to justify making a expensive free to play game. We've pretty Mich heard the opposite from nearly every other developer.

This is capcom the company who almost canclled dead rising 3 bexuase it was too expensive for them.

JaxonH

#126

JaxonH said:

@shingi_70

It's logical though. I mean, the more powerful the console, the more detail goes into the games. Which means more work to create that detail. Look at the file sizes of the PS4 games. Killzone Shadowfall pushing 50gb... that takes alot of man hours.

N64ever

#127

N64ever said:

Man this is getting to technical for me. I guess the moral of the story is Nintendo should of had a better developer support team on hand for the companies that are quick too drop game development if it becomes difficult for them. Isn't technical hurdles part of the challenge to all digital works out there?

shingi_70

#128

shingi_70 said:

@JaxonH

Most PS3 games are around d 50GB its mostly due to Blu Ray allowing for uncompressed assets a d fitting more on a disc. Loco cycle is 20GB ffrom a developer that's made 3GB games but than you realize everything is at 1080p and uncompressed.

All that new hardware and power doesn't have to inflate costs especially since we know developing for the PS4 is pretty much making a PC game.

http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/01/01/kadokawa-boss-on-ps4-itll-keep-development-costs-low-wonders-if-it-can-revive-consoles-in-japan/

Theyre working on their first internal console game and they've had nothing but good things to say about the system.

LDXD

#129

LDXD said:

@shingi_70 #121 the wiiU sold around 3 million its first few months also, its after that when it started to slow down to a crawl

azg

#130

azg said:

Most disturbing thing is that technical progress that we see is slowly killing game industry as a whole. Consoles aside but when developers have to invest so much money in the game that it becomes all in or out for the studio that's not healthy environment.
So Nintendo approach gameplay over graphics is the good one in my opinion. Indie developers have same philosophy.
You cannot make progress if you scared to take a risk. Vicious circle...

shingi_70

#132

shingi_70 said:

@LDXD

I'd blame the wiicu getting a lot of stuff delayed killed the momentum, there was little coming and the stuff that was like Rayman and pikmin was delayed.

Xbox One is having still no major droughts on the horizon like the Wii U did.

GunstarHero234

#134

GunstarHero234 said:

Well this is awkward that some of these people on here as usual with their insane guidelines of this developer opinions and other systems sigh.......Please if you so keen to "save" Nintendo in this 3rd Party Developer mishap which they put themselves in this position since the N64 era develop your own 3rd Party title for Nintendo and the community then see how "simple" it is.

LDXD

#135

LDXD said:

@readypembroke and that's the point time is money I'm pretty sure it cost beth more to port skyrim to the ps3 than to the 360 dealing with all the bugs and constantly trying to get the game to run right cost money
This is what happens when a console is a pain to work with

Link41x

#136

Link41x said:

@shingi_70 The Xbox One is going to have a drought, there is nothing on the horizon for that system with the exception of a few ports and Titanfall. The Xbox One lost momentum after launch going into December, with the Wii U/PS4 outselling them in the crucial holiday month. It looks good on them, 2013 was a joke for Microsoft.

Zhenya

#137

Zhenya said:

I find it hard to believe, there are MANY other articles that said other wise in the past.

Remember that article about that other secret developer that said the Wii U is no weaker than a PS3 and XBOX360? Yah...

GC-161

#140

GC-161 said:

@element187 @Galactus

It wasn't Mass Effect 3 or EA

The article gave plenty of hints over what launch game it was.

Here are the hints given:

1. Anon Dev had to adjust the code from the PS3/360 version to make it run on the Wii U. That means that the game was a PORT.

2. The only online featured in the game, was Miiverse support. The dev had problem just adding that. No mention at all about online co-op. Just Miiverse capabilities. This rules out most of EA's offerings for Wii U.

3. The Anon dev mentions that the game was "well received". Meaning that critics gave it good scores. That is a good hint to cut down on potential candidates. Not many launch games for Wii U had good scores at Metacritic.

There are only 3 games that fit the bill, based on those hints from the article. They are:

1. Skylanders Giants (metacritic score: 80) – Developed by Vivendi (Vicarious Visions)

2. Batman: Arkham City – Armored Edition (metacritic score: 85) – Dev by Warner Bros. Studios

3. Darksiders II (metacritic score: 85) – Dev by THQ

I saw videos and interviews with the people behind the Batman game. They were all excited and hyped over working on the Wii U port. So its not them. The Skylanders game? Well, there was continued support of the Wii U from the Skylanders people. So that rules them out.

All signs point to DARKSIDERS II being the launch game. And therefore, the developer was THQ. The same company that went bankrupt in late 2012. Anyone who has played that game, knows that it wasn't exactly a stellar port. It lacked polish.

This is what a dev who worked at THQ said about the Wii U:

  • About the Wii U interface & GamePad: "I’m already a known skeptic on whether the interface paradigm is at all anything but idiotic" and "as a UI Designer applying experienced critical thinking to game mechanics UI and the Wii U tablet, none of it makes sense to me to truly add value to gamers, even if you try".

That same developer mentioned that "the tablet" of the Wii U was a gimmick.

So yeah, it was THQ folks. They never really cared for the Wii U in the first place. Why should we care?

faint

#141

faint said:

I am not a tec savy person I can't argue specs but I can think for myself. This "developer" expects me to believe that nintendo of japan doesn't have at least 50 bilingual employes. That every message has to go thru 3 or more translations and that they sent out info in broken English? I call bs all over this article.

lacaras4

#142

lacaras4 said:

Considering what I've heard other devs say who actually identify themselves, I don't think "Secret Developer" here is an actual developer.

sub12

#143

sub12 said:

Yup, it’s all fake and make believe, Eurogamer (the guys who called Super Mario Galaxy the #1 title of the 7th gen) just has a vendetta against the Wii U, and they decided to risk their credibility so they could make Nintendo look bad.

Look, Nintendo is an amazing developer, but they have made same big mistakes with the Wii U, stop being “this has to be fake, etc. etc.”, just look at the release schedule, outside of a couple of titles from Ubi and Activision, with Slightly Mad, mostly every other developer is skipping the console wholesale under current conditions.

Nintendo f’ed up a bit, that’s not saying the Wii U is the next Atari Jaguar, because it isn’t, but hopefully Nintendo learns from their mistakes and stops riding the Wii wave which sank a long time ago.

Sparx

#145

Sparx said:

So from what I see, Nintendo's biggest issues are communication and online. Power limits or code issues should be almost nothing of Nintendo answered questions quickly and helped them understand how to program for the wiiu

Unfortunately Nintendo always had sucked at communications with third parties

Luffy

#146

Luffy said:

nintendo needs to step it up big time next gen. and leap the ps4's power in 4 years. 150% more powerful then ps4 would be nice. and the ps4 would still be in mid life cycle.

vattodev

#147

vattodev said:

It's so easy nowadays to spread rumours about the Wii U. Haters love it, most Nintendo fans are offended by it and you don't have to prove anything.
To anyone that believe in this kind of thing I have only two questions: How hard it is to develop for the PS3? Do you think the Wii U architecture is that much different from the gamecube or wii?
Annoying rumours.

Macarony64

#148

Macarony64 said:

@Charley_U na, it most have been the fifa developers or 2k with nba2k13 but since 2k did never said nothing on stage about having an unprecedented partnership my guess is that. But in reality this sound more like fake since even that thq developer which said the horrible things about wiiu is now happy to be developing for wiiu.

Slapshot

#149

Slapshot said:

@MrGawain It could have been a number of them: EA, BioWare, SEGA, Vigil Games - there were several developers who ported games to the Wii U at its launch. The developer clearly is trying to get finished code to work on the Wii U, instead of writing new code, which the basis of my sentiment comes from.

@GC-161 Considering that the developer was most likely breaking NDAs with this article, I'd like to think that he/she intentionally penned it to make it look like they were someone they aren't. ;)

GC-161

#151

GC-161 said:

Again, it wasn't EA, SEGA or Bioware. The port in question only had Miiverse functionality and that's bout all it had in terms of online capabilities. So it rules out almost everything EA, SEGA did for the Wii U.

It was most likely an ex-THQ dev.And the game in question is most likely Darksiders II.

Macarony64

#152

Macarony64 said:

@vattodev is not harder than porting a PC exclusive to Xbox 360 than it is to do the same to wiiu look at need for speed on wiiu that thing was coded in months using the PC assets so who are you going to belive some who say something that can't be verified or someone who has already proved that the wiiu is a capable console with the games they have released?

Memeboy3

#155

Memeboy3 said:

@King47 That's more of the fault of 3rd Party developers..it's not like developing a game of Sony or Microsoft is easy in the first place..
If the developer is not devoted enough for the Wii U, it's their own fault, Nintendo sticks to it's guns...

GC-161

#156

GC-161 said:

@Macarony64

Dude, the game mentioned in the article only had Miiverse integration as far as its online capabilities are concerned. Everything EA or 2K produced for the Wii U had a lot more than that. So that rules them out completely.

The only games that got good scores, had Miiverse integration (and nothing else in terms of online capabilities) and that were more or less a port were:

1. Skylanders Giants (metacritic score: 80) – Developed by Vivendi (Vicarious Visions)

2. Batman: Arkham City – Armored Edition (metacritic score: 85) – Dev by Warner Bros. Studios

3. Darksiders II (metacritic score: 85) – Dev by THQ

Those are the only LAUNCH games that fit the bill.

And since the Wii U got more Batman and Skylanders games after the launch period, that means that the anon developer in the Eurogamer article was from THQ.

Macarony64

#157

Macarony64 said:

@faint Even tweets from those developers are better writhing than the American counterparts also Indies have been saying that they are having great support in just days so the big Ines can't? I call BS on the full article.

Memeboy3

#158

Memeboy3 said:

@Sparx how does Nintendo suck at communicating to 3rd parties? Nintendo has no conrol over 3rd parties.
I guess Sony and Microsoft suck at communicating with indies because one Team is now devoted to Nintendo...

sub12

#159

sub12 said:

I realize it’s “Mr. secret developer”, but do you think Eurogamer would publish it if they knew it was complete BS.?

The guy isn’t even hostile towards Nintendo, he comes off credible, and why would he say he works for X or X company when he doesn’t want to hurt relations nor possibly lose his job from his head shed? He probably just knows somebody at Eurogamer, he was explaining the situation to them, and they say, “cool beans, can you write me a article on that?, and we will keep your identity hidden”. Happens all the time.

I’m just saying, for the people who are saying this article is BS, your kinda putting your head in the sand. The lack of third party support from numerous developers (not just EA, etc), indicates that probably quite a few developers / companies feel the same way.

GC-161

#160

GC-161 said:

@sub12

"The lack of third party support from numerous developers (not just EA, etc), indicates that probably quite a few developers / companies feel the same way"

^^^^ Nah. The 3DS suffers from the same problem in the WEST. And historically, 3rd party devs not supporting Nintendo consoles ever since the SNES, tells a different story. Something else is going on here.

electrolite77

#161

electrolite77 said:

Really good read. The same criticisms of Nintendo and their treatment of third parties have been bubbling around for years but nothing ever seems to change.

electrolite77

#162

electrolite77 said:

@sub12

The 'head in the sand' crowd on here will find this difficult. If anything goes badly for Nintendo, it's someone else's fault. Other developers, other publishers, retailers, consumers, European consumers, British consumers, a media conspiracy, people on the internet, EA, Sony, anyone else will do....

GC-161

#163

GC-161 said:

@electrolite77

You couldn't be wrong even if you were born twice and said the same thing in a different alternate universe. Because the reality is this:

Here are some 3rd party devs that have worked closely with Nintendo and who continue to work with said company to this day:

SEGA, Namco, Tecmo, Capcom, among many others.

And there are several INDIE devs who have nothing but good things to say about working with Nintendo. Such as "Renegade Kid" and even one dev that has worked on several Nintendo games: Next Level Games.

So there goes your half-baked theory about 3rd party devs having a hard time with Ninty! If what you said had even a molecule of truth, there wouldn't be so many 3rd party devs working with Nintendo for so many years. Even working on Nintendo IP's. :D

Macarony64

#164

Macarony64 said:

@GC-161 I agree completely. The refuse they giv for nit developing on wiiu is kind of realistic( doubt that's the reason ) but why not making 3ds games if it is the best selling console? I think they are afraid of the return of Japanese third party rise back to being on top and the console and fans that are goin to make that happen is a Nintendo home console.

Macarony64

#165

Macarony64 said:

@GC-161 don't forget those developers that made their fortune making only games for Nintendo console like akklaim,thq and midway which they all die once they made game out of Nintendo consoles.

Macarony64

#166

Macarony64 said:

@sub12 yea lets belive what some anonymous developer says when their is evidence that proves he is completely wrong on his subject like how need for speed was ported in record time using the pc assets, BRAVO INTELLIGENCE?!?!

jrob23

#168

jrob23 said:

LOL. I believe there are forces at work trying to make the Wii U look bad. There are a couple weak donkey blogs that are running a story that Nintendo has lowered sales forecasts. It's funny because they are quoting some random dude's tweet and trying to pass this off as official or news. It's like this article. I believe there were issues from some 3rd party developers. But I also believe they are in Microsoft and Sony's pockets for the most part so it means nothing. If Shin'en has no issues, and Ubi on rare occasions (Rayman Legends) has no issues then it can't be that difficult. This sounds like a butthurt EA developer to be honest.

electrolite77

#169

electrolite77 said:

@GC-161

My theory has not gone anywhere. Put your head back in the sand, avoid doing any research on things like Nintendo's antitrust cases, the N64 being deliberately difficult to code for, Iwata admitting problems with third party sales on Wii and that they needed to fix this and instead spend your time enjoying GTA V, Bioshock, Tomb Raider, FIFA 14 and DMC on the Wii U.

Keep blaming someone else, anyone else....

MAB

#170

MAB said:

Come on now, the Wii U won't start selling until we get Bird Mania Christmas 3D... BMC3D will fix everything ;)

Untitled

ajcismo

#171

ajcismo said:

All I got out of this article was a lot of tech blah blah and what seems to be programmers not liking having to change things up from one system to another if they're not already similar in language. Sounds kinda lazy to me.

GC-161

#172

GC-161 said:

@electrolite77

"My theory has not gone anywhere"

^^^^ You said it. Your theory hits a brick wall when faced with REALITY and goes nowhere.

Like I said before, there are several AAA 3rd party devs that have worked with Nintendo since Iwata took power at Nintendo. And who have continued to work CLOSELY with Nintendo and who have nothing but GOOD things to say about the company.

I suggest you educate yourself on that by reading many of the Iwata Asks where Iwata has talked with many 3rd party developers. Who are happy to work with Nintendo and who aren't LAZY or who do not whine a lot, such as some Western devs who want things to come easy to them.

And also, please read about an INDIE dev who has worked with Nintendo on several IP's from said company:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/205707/Next_Level_Games_Working_with_Nintendo_making_a_studio_great_for_developers.php

And to seal the deal, read this:

"Harder to Develop Games on the Wii U? Not the case says Renegade Kid."

http://nintendoenthusiast.com/news/harder-develop-games-wii-u-case-says-renegade-kid/

So yeah, so much for your theories. Pull out your head from down there and smell some reality, dude!

P.S. And nice strawman argument you tried there by coming up with tired old arguments against Nintendo since the NES days. We're not talking about anti-trust anything here. This is about a site known for yellow journalism coming up with another inflammatory article with wonky facts that don't match up with what most devs say about their experience working with Nintendo.

Peach64

#173

Peach64 said:

@GC-161 All your examples are people that are only working on Nintendo consoles. The developer in the article says quite clearly if you're just working on a Nintendo console, then you can make great games. The problem is, unless Nintendo is footing the bill or you're making a small indie game, nobody can afford to spend millions making a game just for Wii U because it won't sell enough.

People are getting mad without actually listening to what's been written. He did not say it was hard to develop on Wii U, he said it was built extremely differently to 360 and PS3, something every developer agrees on, so porting is hard. The PS3 suffered the same until it's hardware sales made it impossible to ignore.

mercurio2054

#174

mercurio2054 said:

@BinaryFragger and with all that is for win millions they make bad games with lots of bugs even in consoles like 360 or ps3... with all the experience that they have programming there....

GC-161

#176

GC-161 said:

@Peach64

"All your examples are people that are only working on Nintendo consoles"

They were? Ok, let me re-read the examples I gave here:

"Here are some 3rd party devs that have worked closely with Nintendo and who continue to work with said company to this day: SEGA, Namco, Tecmo, Capcom, among many others. And there are several INDIE devs who have nothing but good things to say about working with Nintendo. Such as "Renegade Kid" and even one dev that has worked on several Nintendo games: "Next Level Games."

Hmmm.... Yep. Every single one of those developers have worked on Non-Nintendo platforms at one time or another.

So I dunno what you're talking about Peach64. The 3rd party developers I mentioned have done multiplatform work. Maybe you should try finding out what games and on what platform they have develop games for.

Heck, even Kamiya, who people find "difficult" to work with, said this when asked about becoming a 2nd party & joining Nintendo:

“I would love that. It would be great to work more closely with Nintendo.”

The theory that Nintendo is difficult to work with is a bit wonky at best.

taffy

#177

taffy said:

Having owned a 360 I think an under powered CPU makes sense. Last Gen we had the RROD for 360 and YLOD (to a lesser scale) on the PS3. I think an under powered CPU makes for a more reliable piece of hardware, atleast by looking at previous generations, I'm no tech expert.

With regards to who this anonymous source is, wasn't there an EA guy saying some rather negative things about the Wii U:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/17/ea-senior-engineer-the-wii-u-is-crap

WaLzgiStaff

#178

WaLzgi said:

This article reeks of EA, and everyone knows how credible they can be ;)

GC-161

#180

GC-161 said:

Its probably not EA. The game described in the article doesn't have online capabilities beyond offering Miiverse support. All of EA's launch games had at least online co-op.

IMO, its actually defunct developer, THQ. And the game is Darksiders II. And the anonymous dev is probably an ex-employee of THQ. They weren't kind to the Wii U in some interviews.

I already wrote here what one THQ dev said about the Wii U's Gamepad (or as he called it, tablet) and who described it as being idiotic and not very useful.

Tritonus

#183

Tritonus said:

@BinaryFragger In all fairness, while I'm sure W101 is a great / awesome game, it DID get a rather lukewarm reception from the general gaming media, even though a few sites gave it stellar ratings. I think part of the problem is that many Nintendo fans have come to expect buying most 8-9-10 rated games, and won't even consider a game that scores lower, while these games can in fact be more than enjoyable.

A lot of third parties probably think that they will never be able to compete with first party titles on Nintendo systems, and therefore don't even take the chance.

It's a vicious cycle, where Nintendo fans don't buy 3rd party games because they allegedly don't have the same level of polish as 1st party games, and 3rd party developers start giving up, and then people only gravitate MORE towards 1st part titles.

IceClimbers

#184

IceClimbers said:

Did any of you guys ACTUALLY expect 3rd parties to support the Wii U at all? It was quite clear that they weren't going to support the Wii U. They aren't going to support Nintendo's next console either, or the one after that.

3rd party games DO NOT sell well on Nintendo consoles. The majority of everyone here on this site aren't going to buy 3rd party games on their Wii U (some exceptions obviously).

Honestly, Nintendo should just continue to work closely with Sega, Namco, and Platinum Games, buy Capcom and Square Enix, and then work HEAVILY with indies and raising them to reach their full potential. Western devs don't care about Nintendo. They will die off the same way as Microsoft and Sony's gaming divisions will. This gaming industry will crash eventually, and Nintendo just needs to wait it out and come back to pick up the pieces.

Slapshot

#185

Slapshot said:

@Zach Hahahahahaha! I tried to eat Dove soap once, but quickly realized that Dove soap and Dove chocolate isn't the same thing. :P

SCAR392

#187

SCAR392 said:

@FutureAlphaMale
Being wrong is different than not knowing. They clearly don't know how to use the hardware, yet. I can't really prove anything wrong, as much as give suggestions on what areas of the hardware I think they should be using.

These developers are apparently still trying to load most of the processing onto the CPU, when the GPGPU is supposed to handle alot of what they're putiing on the CPU.

SCAR392

#188

SCAR392 said:

In otherwords, tell the CPU to tell the GPGPU what to do. If they're overloading the CPU and hardly using the GPGPU, that implies that they need to use the GPGPU for more tasks to get more performance. The GPGPU can handle anything the CPU can, as long as you tell it to.

micronean

#189

micronean said:

They all sound like excuses, especially the communications part. I mean, if you have to resort to using a computer translation, then you are just being lazy. Hire a real human Japanese translator! If you are constantly working with Japanese hardware developers (i.e. Sony, just as much as Nintendo), then you should really have Japanese-speaking engineers on your payroll. I mean, come on!
These people may be good coders, but it sure looks like they never left their basements and got any common sense. None of these problems cited seem to be unsolvable, as long as you change the way you do things and ADAPT! Don't just go the "Microsoft Windows" way and throw more code into the bucket. To me, this developer just wanted to get a game--optimized for xbox--rushed to the Wii U as quickly as possible, and didn't feel like investing the time to make it easy for Nintendo to help them. It sounds like an American "me first" mentality.
I'm glad Nintendo doesn't bend over backwards for these clowns. This kind of attitude would make Nintendo's consoles into a derivative handicapped step-child of the Sony's and Microsofts rather than being their own.

DualWielding

#191

DualWielding said:

It is clear that Nintendon't think about third party developers when developing their consoles, with the 3DS it doesn't matter because they are leaders of the handheld market and developers would come and game developing is cheaper for it meaning exclusives can be profitable... but for the Wii U where they are competing against other consoles and higher production cost mean only multiplats can be profitable their "build it and they will come" attitude towards third party developers just doesn't cut it

Vincent294

#192

Vincent294 said:

So many people in the comments are stupid. They were not informed by Nintendo on how to optimize for Wii U well. Not sure how much simpler it gets. Nintendo needs to their crap together w/ the Wii U & tell devs how to get the most out of it, perhaps there would be less crappy ports.

GC-161

#193

GC-161 said:

@VincentV

What an inane comment. That anonymous dev complained about not having Nintendo holding their hand through the whole process of porting a game that required them using a different code.

They needed to make an effort. But they expected Nintendo to do it for them. Have everything in a silver plate for them to just push a button and out comes the game.

If you had actually read between the lines of what he said, you would've notice that the dev was angry that "management" forced them to work on a Wii U game. Take a hint man, this dev did not liked working on a Wii U game. Because it required a lot more work than the simple copy-paste job that he expected it to be.

He's probably still angry about it because the game failed in term of sales and he ended up without a job.

That is why I believe that the anon dev was working at THQ. Because that company publicly complained about Darksiders II sales not meeting expectations. And that company started laying off several employees soon after that game came out.

Yorumi

#194

Yorumi said:

As a programer myself working in an extremely limited environment where optimization is everything, these devs are just whining. First of all it was no secret at all that nintendo was making a gpu heavy system and that the cpu would be weak. That's exactly how a PC works, you can cut way back on the cpu and still play most modern games, the gpu is huge. The twins are using their cpu's to basically brute force a lot of it. That's really not a good way to do things. It's also funny they whine about this while admitting they're going to have to do gpu optimizations on the ps4 and xbone. So it's hard to port to nintendo if they're the same as current gen? Yeah ok.

Second, who tries to push a system to it's limits for a launch title anyway. Seriously look at ps3 launch titles compared to modern ones, it's night and day. They sound like they were out of their league. Something to keep in mind, just because someone makes games doesn't mean they're necessarily good at what they do.

There are simply a lot of lazy devs, they want to whine and complain instead of exploring the system and finding out things that work. I and the other programers where I work have had to do a lot of probing and experimentation with our systems and tools to see what they're capable of. We've even had to make creative solutions to get around problems and push systems even farther than anyone thought possible. This is what programers do, and we don't complain that the dev of some tool or system isn't waiting to instantly respond to questions. In fact most of the time devs arn't even available at all.

One week response time? Nintendo is a multi-billion dollar corporation, at the tiny little company I work for answering questions for our own staff can take a good chunk out of my day. I can't imagine trying to work with hundreds of other people to build a system and have dozens of devs asking you highly technical questions all the time. Nintendo may not have the best response times but here's an idea how about instead of waiting for a response you experiment and see if you can figure out how it works.

I just get really sick of the whiny devs who prey on the fact that most people don't know the first thing about programing or how computers work(a console is a computer).

Chris720

#195

Chris720 said:

Problem is, developers have got into a "copy and paste" attitude. They want to make money very quickly with very little effort. That's why they build the PC version, port over to consoles and change bits to make it run at its optimal best.

Throw in the Wii U that is made completely differently and you have to tinker with this and that to get the best out of it, most will probably think "oh blow this." It might be getting easier for the devs that stuck around to get used to it, but for many others they can't be bothered, like EA for example.

Now we could say its Nintendo's fault for not being dev friendly. Or we could say devs are lazy who don't want to learn new things. But Nintendo's consoles survive on 1st party titles, always have, always will.

FineLerv

#196

FineLerv said:

Armchairs Experts. As far as the eye can see.

What I find interesting about this kind of article is when we see it being contradicted by developers who know how to get their games working properly.

guelffo

#197

guelffo said:

The truth is: some mediocre companies are crying because they can´t sell too well or not al all crap games (AC4, Need For Speed Rivals, Call Of Dog Duty) on Wii U.

They make mediocre games, same old-cliché story (Asassins Creed III and IV are horrible in every aspect, DmC (who will replay DmC in the next 10 years: no one! l We will continue to play Majora's Mask, Perfect Dark, 007 Goldeneye, Donkey Kong Country, Xenoblade Chronicles, Mario 3D World, Wind Waker HD etc because they are good games and good games takes effort to develop. If they want to make giant profit by selling Dog Duty and Battiefield every 9 mouths, struggling to reach 30fps - 720p on XONE and making false ads ("Xone and PS4 have amazing Cloud Services - do they? they are not even stable yet). Ubisoft's son Rayman Legends - that´s what they have to learn - make good games , it will sell. If you want to make Call Of Dog Duty every year, it will sell but next year nobody is going to give you 1 cent.

Macarony64

#198

Macarony64 said:

@electrolite77 The only company to deliberately make a console hard to develope for is Sony with both the ps2 and ps3 but The ps3 backfires in them and almost send them to bankrupt.

guelffo

#199

guelffo said:

I do own a PS3 and I must say this: By early 2012 there were only half a dozen good games(keep in mind PS3 was almost 6 years old by early 2012). Then late 2012 and 2013 they had like giant ads on playstation blog : "A new Action-RPG will be released soon, it will blow you away. It´s going to be epic" and then , a few weeks later, they stated: "Dead Space 3 is released". Dead Speace 3 is really really bad. It´s not RPG and not survival game. I find difficult to label which genre its blong to. By early 2012 there were four great games (2 of them are obscure and hard to find marketing ads). All I´m saying is: reading this article , the author is saying basically: We want to make more Dead Space 3 , we want to make First person shooters with the same plot and engine but we are not getting money because Nintendo is not making easy for us to sell mediocre games.

Thanks for that Nintendo.

guelffo

#200

guelffo said:

Let´s say I´m a EA developer. All I want is to make the same game and make 3 times more money (Selling it on Sony, nintendo and microsoft systems). When Nintendo cuts 1/3 by not helping them to make horrible games, I will cry of course. I will scream every where that Nintendo is bad, is hard to program, the console lacks power, etc.

Why do I scream and yell ? Because I´m not getting more money.

It´s so easy to understand: my money? ok. Give me good games, then we well have a deal.

JarredBuzzo

#202

JarredBuzzo said:

I think @GC-161 is right, I was more or less going to post something like what he/she said because you know it isn't someone from Ubisoft, EA, SEGA or any Indie developer working on games for Wii U, because why would support continue from most of the previously mentioned if they didn't like working with Nintendo or on their home console? To echo the statements made before, why should we care?

TheRealThanos

#203

TheRealThanos said:

@element187 Nope, it's not Mass Effect 3. They made Deus Ex after that, remember? The story is from a developer that made only one game. Best bet seems to be Darksiders 2: one game made, studio went bust. Although that game is also debatable seeing as mixed signals came from developers and Vigil Games' lead designer Haydn Dalton, so it is probably going to remain a mystery which game it actually is.
@SCAR392 They actually did look into using the GPGPU, but for reasons described in the complete article, they couldn't (or didn't) go for that option. And besides that, using the GPGPU as an alternative for the CPU only works if the Wii U's memory/data pipeline is short and there is a minimum of latency between CPU/GPGPU, also assuming there's bigger L2 cache to benefit from.
@GC-161 See you already called out Darksiders 2 way before me. Credit were credit's due...
@Everyone Please, keep calm and continue breathing. This is an article concerning Wii U dev kit v1, by now we are on v5 or v6 and some of the issues have been resolved, so it's a bit different now. Needless to say that the Wii U still needs a marketing blitz campaign and a ton of software to get back in the game...

But one thing that doesn't click is the part about communication. It is possible that Nintendo has a low priority for smaller third parties, but the bigger ones like EA and so on would not have to wait for text to be translated; they would more than likely arrange for a translator in-house when needed, so communication would still be more or less instantaneous.

Sparx

#204

Sparx said:

@Memeboy3 The wiiu was built with first party in mind, and if what this secret guy says is true then Nintendo did not have a way to efficiently answer their questions. A week is not efficient at all to answer some questions. that there is a problem with communications, and I don't think I said Nintendo had control over them

AVahne

#205

AVahne said:

Seems Wii U really will be Gamecube V2. Personally I'll be getting Project CARS on Wii U rather than my much more powerful PC, just as a sort of thank you to the developers for giving Ninty fans a pretty racing sim. But other than that and Watch_Dogs, I really don't know if there will be any other multi-platform third party games to buy in 2014. I fear we may see game droughts in between the exclusives.

Jazzer94

#206

Jazzer94 said:

@micronean Did you even read the article in which the developers obviusly contacted NOA because thats their Nintendo region, NOA could not answer their enquiry so translated it to japanese who response was translated back to english by NOA ie its Nintendos fault if the question and/or response was misinterpretated not the developers.

gameboy1975

#207

gameboy1975 said:

@BinaryFragger

And I bet that you're wrong as heck with your over generalizations & woefully inaccurate statements. Considering that almost all my games are 3rd party, I alone pretty much prove the fallacy & frankly foolish ASSumptions that you made. And we all know what they say about those don't we amigo?

jayclayx

#208

jayclayx said:

@element187 still the wii U´s cpu is weaker than the xenon structure on 360, and all the points you touched yeah you may be right but all this would we unnecessary if Nintendo had done things right from the start, I don't know about the xbox one but I can tell you the ps4 run killzone, need for speed , ac4 and many others at 1080p, the problem here is that Nintendo failed to entice people to buy the console and one the consequences are that developers are afraid to make games on the console at the risk of lost their money been unable to back their invest.

Subie98

#209

Subie98 said:

@BinaryFragger they got burned because not everyone thinks its a good game. I personally think its garbage. No need to explain why. Its simply stupid to me. Im not the first or last to think this. There is many others.

Yorumi

#210

Yorumi said:

@jayclayx well in a lot of ways using the cpu to brute force through things like the 360 does is actually doing it wrong. As soon as gpu's became necessary PC's have been relying way more on the gpu than the cpu. PC devs always try to get as much as possible off the cpu and onto the gpu.

Furthermore the sony and ms new systems are all going to this hardware strategy too. So as I said in my other post, this dev is mad that nintendo is doing what the other console makers are doing.

Also as I pointed out before, as programers it's our JOB to figure out where bottlenecks are and how to work around them. This can even come as far as just experimenting with where the compile time optimizations are and deciding which method among many is the best way to implement something.

They're whining that a lazy port doesn't work.

TheRealThanos

#211

TheRealThanos said:

@jayclayx Nope. The Xenon triple core has only 1 thread per core. The brute forcing analogy that @Yorumi is talking about is a good one in that respect, which is one of the exact reasons why the Xbox360 stuttered on some games/game scenes. The Wii U's CPU may seem weaker in numbers on paper, but it has multiple threads per core, and it is obviously a more modern CPU, so definitely NOT weaker. Even if it was the exact same CPU but a newer version, it would still be better...

unrandomsam

#212

unrandomsam said:

@jayclayx Not sure it is weaker if it used properly. Problem is the option exists with the 360 to only use one out of the three cores at a higher clockspeed. (Which allows a simple but poor port to the PS3 not using any of the good parts of the PS3).

Mommar

#213

Mommar said:

@Yorumi And let's also not forget the average span of time a developer stays in the gaming industry, five years. Most of these larger publishers are programmer mills. They churn through guys with very little experience all the time. And let's face it, unless you're a genius (and I, as a software engineer too, am not), these guys coming out of college likely wouldn't be the smartest/best or experienced programmers working on the game either. Ports are generally considered easy by management, which hardly ever turns out to be the case.

Bryon15

#214

Bryon15 said:

I think nintendo should just forget about third parties and focus on increasing their own in house development teams. Maybe buying some small independent studios. Like platinum games, monster games, sumo digital, treasure. Then they can carry their own system, without relying on third parties.

Yorumi

#215

Yorumi said:

@unrandomsam it's not weaker, it's way newer and has improved architecture among other things. Without an essay, generally speaking clock speed is one of the worst indicators of processor power.

@Mommar yeah porting tends to be one of the more difficult tasks. Programs just don't like to be changed.

@Bryon15 actually it's more a paradigm shift. There's quite a few indie devs praising nintendo and some of the traditional 3rd parties are as well. The biggest problem is while they're are certainly influential, people tend to look at about 5 to 10 big companies as the sum total of all 3rd party devs. When one of them says something bad all the sudden it's the end of the world.

McGruber

#216

McGruber said:

I just want to point out that even though the 3DS is selling well, third party support is just as bad as Wii U and a lot of that also has to do with specs and lack of duel analog. Anyone who thinks Nintendo needs to just forget about 3rd parties is an idiot. There are a lot of people like myself that enjoy Nintendo games (not all), but desperately want to be able to play more 3rd party games. It's the reason I don't own a Wii U and frankly don't own more 3DS games. The game I want to play just aren't there. That is a loss for Nintendo

Vincent294

#217

Vincent294 said:

@GC-161 He had "very limited development time." If the publisher didn't want him to take the time to do experiment w/ optimizing, he had no choice but to ask Nintendo. Heck, look at Two Tribes. They couldn't even afford to do it. They took time optimizing on their own, and look at what happened to them. They barely scraped by. It wouldn't hurt to give a little advice. You're right, devs need to do work on their own. But they are also held by constraints, like time or budget; Nintendo does nothing about this. If they want more 3rd party games they need to put out big games of their own or help out the devs a little, because nothing will change. The bias on this site is ridiculous. Apparently, it's okay for devs in Japan to skip Xbox because they don't translate any help to devs, but if it happens to Nintendo, people here are outraged. I'm not saying Nintendo needs to help them w/ everything; they need to offer some help. Is that much to ask for?

Yorumi

#218

Yorumi said:

@VincentV well it's not really nintendo's job to babysit these people. It's not that they wern't giving advice, but really nintendo is a multi-billion dollar corporation that has multiple studios working for them first party, and dozens of 3rd party devs. They have messages that need to be translated both ways, and then they have devs that have other things to do answer the questions.

It's also not nintendo's fault that some company doesn't properly manage it's budget.

And finally you want to talk about bias, many devs praise nintendo and what they do, no one really cares. One "secret" dev says they do things wrong and suddenly they're the most out of touch company in the world.

Vincent294

#219

Vincent294 said:

@Yorumi You must've stopped reading my post halfway through or forgot I said, "I'm not saying Nintendo needs to help them w/ everything; they need to offer some help." As for the bias in the comments section I referred to, I never said Nintendo sucked. I said this is a mistake. I love their games. You only prove the bias in the comments section by how much you misinterpreted what I said. So if I give one criticism to Nintendo I hate them? Wow, I get a lot of hate here just for speaking my mind. At least this isn't as bad as Sony fanboys.

GC-161

#220

GC-161 said:

@VincentV

That developer wasn't the only one with a limited development time. Some developers took some pride in rising to the challenge of working on new hardware. And they weren't intimidated by the prospect of having to actually do some actual work. Even on the Wii U. There are several 3rd party devs who despite not making big money on the system since it launched, are still making games for it.

Think about it: If it was so hard to make games on the Wii U & Nintendo was in effect difficult to work with (as Eurogamer's article claims), why are some 3rd party developers still making games for it? Especially when they're not making a lot of profit. The working relationship between Nintendo and these companies MUST be so good, so good in fact, that even that situation won't hurt it.

In regards to not having enough of a budget. How is that even Nintendo's fault? Was it Sony's fault that FACTOR 5 invested their entire capital in LAIR & that it eventually bombed? To the point where FACTOR 5 ceased to exist?

Its funny how you're trying to make excuses for a lazy developer who should've been making MOBILE games in the first place. The type that don't require as much GPU optimization or having to adjust too much code for games to work on mobile phones. And who didn't even had a DECENT budget to make a LAST GEN PORT.

If you wanna make excuses for such devs, go ahead. Just don't complain that no one else does it too. Because not many will make those excuses.

I had to deal with BETHESDA making bug infested games for my PS3. And I heard all their dumb and lame excuses as to why we always got watered down ports of their games. So sorry if In don't have sympathy for lazy developers. Because I don't have any for them. NONE.

So yeah. If they wanted Nintendo's help & they imagined that Nintendo didn't had anyone who spoke English in their entire work force, that dev could've hired a JAPANESE translator to help them out. But nooo. Its all up to Nintendo to do all the work for them.

Jesus.

Vincent294

#221

Vincent294 said:

@GC-161 It's not necessarily them so much, they're certainly not amazing programmers. But what about a smaller game studio trying to get something on Wii U? Well, they could need help. and it's not like an indie studio can afford to hire a translator. Without help, it can take a while to optimize for them: look at Two Tribes's recent troubles. The lesson to be learned is if Nintendo's friendlier, they'll get more devs or more ambitious games.

SCAR392

#222

SCAR392 said:

@TheRealThanos
Ya, I read that part. I think most of the trouble is that Wii U's hardware isn't compatible with 7th OR 8th gen systems. I would guess that it takes just as much effort to port from an Xbox 360 or Xbox One, to the Wii U.

Like you said, the CPU in the Wii U is alot more complex than anything the Xbox 360 has. These devs just need to figure out what works, and find other means on how to get things working from different systems. Alot of the multithread and cache aspects of the system haven't even been touched, so there's no conclusion to drawn.

Xbox One mainly uses the CPU to do stuff, so these devs need to figure out what components in the Wii U can produce a similar result. They're probably trying to load up the CPU, then can't figure out how use other parts of the system after that.

Tell the CPU to run a process, than have a certain ratio of data to be uploaded to the GPGPU for processing. 1/3 of the task is being processed on the CPU, and 2/3 of the process is being ran on the GPGPU. That would elevate the CPU for further processing, elsewhere. This is my guess anyway. It's no secret that the GPGPU is WAAAAY under utilized, because other wise the problems they're having with the CPU probably wouldn't exist.

Yorumi

#223

Yorumi said:

@VincentV indie studios ARE getting help from nintendo. They were getting help from nintendo from the start. Indie studios have praised nintendo, and said it's a good platform to develop for. That's why people are saying these devs are whining. Somehow the small studios can figure out how to make a wiiU game but bigger ones can't?

I didn't misinterpret your post one bit, it's not nintendo's job to babysit, they are offering help as others have said. This article is an extremely one sided story. Maybe the devs in the article were so incompetent they wore out their welcome at nintendo, maybe the claim is exaggerated, who knows. BUt it's their word against quite a few others who say the exact opposite.

You accuse so many people here of bias while you're taking the word of one single secret dev and using it to indict nintendo while at the same time ignoring what other devs say.

GC-161

#224

GC-161 said:

@VincentV

You mean indie developers? Who says they're not getting any help? And why are we even discussing hypothetical situations here? That sounds like the moving of the old goalposts to me.

But anyways, indies.... there are several of them making games for the Wii U already. Nintendo even boasted how they're supporting them on eShop and released a video dedicated exclusively to showing indie games running on the Wii U.

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50GcvuABEHY

And about Nintendo being friendlier? Did you even read my past post? There are hints all over that their relationship with 3rd party devs who work with them is as good as gold.

C'mon son.

Vincent294

#226

Vincent294 said:

@GC-161 Well, I suppose you have a point. I've known Nintendo has taken efforts to make developing on Wii U easier, such as allowing devs to use Javascript, etc. & allowing more self-publishing. I can see why someone thinks a dev should have to get used to the hardware. I overreacted.

RogueBologna

#227

RogueBologna said:

After reading the article plus over 200 opinions on it, the only conclusion I can make is that I spend too much time on the internet.

Capt_N

#230

Capt_N said:

The answer is that Nintendo needs to firstly make a console that is not just more powerful than current gen, but make one that will have enough power to be within a stone's throw of the competition's next gen hardware. The second thing is, no matter the power put into a console, making it relatively easy software dev kits to use, is important. Then, it makes gripes more trivial. This entire solution is considering Nintendo really wanting 3rd-party support.

Also, there's equal chances this 'dev" is legitimate.

retro_player_22

#231

retro_player_22 said:

So let me get this straight, the hard as hell to developed PS3 got a lot more third party support than the almost hard to developed Wii U? The easy to developed Wii got less third party support than the hard as hell to developed PS3, the inferiors PS2 got more support than the powerful GameCube and Xbox, and now the almost hard to develop Wii U had less support than the easy to developed PS3 and Xbox One?

My point is 3rd party devs, what are your freaking problems? Doesn't seem like Nintendo will satisfied them no matter what, you give them power, they whine about restriction, you take out restriction, they whine about power, you give them both, they whine about lack of innovation, you give them innovation, they whine about it being too gimmicky and just want power again, you give them all of that they whine about sales, you make the sales they ditch you for the competition, and vice-versa and vice-versa, so what do you want 3rd parties? So yeah but if it's not Nintendo then it's okay. It seems 3rd parties doesn't know what they want out of Nintendo. They can say one thing and change their mind the next, this is the reason videogames as a whole will soon perished. Remember that once you killed the great, it ain't gonna be great anymore, Sega is one example, Atari being another. Don't turn Nintendo into one of them. They are great the way they are now, turn them into you guys, and they are great no more so support them for it may be your last.

banacheck

#232

banacheck said:

I think everyone is missing the reality of today's market, there is X amount of devices to choose from and if they can develop a game in half the time and make more money doing that these publishers won't lose sleep over one platform. Now the real question can Nintendo adapt to today's market, because the Wii U surely hasn't.

smashbrolink

#233

smashbrolink said:

@King47 It's also third-party-developers' faults for not taking the time needed to understand the system.
It's got enough power to create great exclusive games, they just don't want to try it because it doesn't work the way the other systems do.
They actually have to learn a new system, heaven forbid right?

the_beaver

#234

the_beaver said:

I just want to add one point: According to Vgchartz, Call of Duty: Ghost is the best-selling game in Ps4 and XBone, with more than one million sales so far, while the WiiU version (yes, there's a version of the latest COD in WiiU) has only sold around 100.000 units. And NSMBU has sold more than 3 millions.
The consoles have very different audiences. The common third party games don't appeal the majority of public who buy Nintendo consoles. That's a fact... If you buy a WiiU is not because you wanna play most third-party games. There's no excuse, there's no point on saying that COD hasn't sold because you can find it in the last-gen consoles (the same could be said for the PS4 version, for example, and look at it...). It's simply because most people here prefer to play Super Mario or Zelda, rather than the typical shooters or sports games.
That's how we are pals, we shouldn't expect a lot of third support. That's why I think Nintendo is doing great cooperating with them in order to create the games that they know we want and will sell well (see Luigi's Mansion, Smash Bros, Fire Emblem, Hyrule Warriors, etc.)

Byron-3D

#236

Byron-3D said:

Screw 3rd party's, do people seriously buy Nintendo consoles to play anything other then Nintendo games, I know that's all I buy them for and if a good 3rd party game comes along it's a bonus.
If your that bothered about 3rd party games buy a 2nd console and follow the sheep

Laxeybobby

#237

Laxeybobby said:

I'd hazard a guess that the secret developer will be one under the EA banner.

That said though, its a good an informative article that has bought together a lot of question to answers and surmising made on other posts over the last week, when the news posts were made about games skipping the WiiU. (The likes of Aliens for example)
I think it doesnt matter who the secret developer is, it has opened a window into the very real reasons as to why decisions are made to skip development on the Wii U.
In my previous posts, I made reference to lazy developers that wanted to easily be able to use a universal game engine without the need to do too much code alteration and thus save money and development time. I smiled when I read the comment "Code optimised for the PowerPC processors found in the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 wasn't always a good fit for the Wii U CPU"
The underlying theme that ran through this article was money and that with all the issues the developer mentioned cost them money which when combined with the relatively small amount of hardware sales means the developers/publishers are in for losses before they even start.

So I can understand the business sense of putting the WiiU in the 'To hard to do' box.

I can also empathise with the developers opinion that Nintendo should shoulder some of the blame. Let face it you could make the worlds best gaming machine, but if the ability to make games for it is so difficult and confusing due to it uniqueness to be different to other consoles means that experienced and accomplished developers have to discard all their generic experience and skills and learn and start over again or just choose to work on a newer console that uses the basic platform of the one before it but with faster CPU and GPU then why would you make games for that console?

In relation to some posters about why would you buy a Nintendo to play anything but Nintendo games is a little closed minded. I only have a WiiU console, yes I bought it to play the future Zelda game, Pikmin and other 1st part games I hope are released, I am also one of the 100,000 COD Ghost Owners, I would have liked a realistic racing game, or another FPS and I am looking forward to Watchdogs. I expect people bought XBone and PS4 for their exclusive series games that only appear on those consoles and accept that they cant get Nintendo Exclusives, like I accept I cant get their particular exclusives. However I cant afford nor do I want to buy a second or even third console to be able to obtain and play what are deemed as multi-platform releases which appear on both the other consoles.

I have now accepted that the WiiU will become a niche console, mainly supplied with games via the indie route or virtual console on e-shop rather than major disc retail releases.

Legromancer

#238

Legromancer said:

@Shroom_Muncher
two things: first, may don't have enough money to buy a second console.
And second, Nintendo sold us on the premise that 3rd parties are coming. The developers reel at the E3 unveiling, the announcement of the partnership with EA...they screwsed at least me up. I believed them. But Nintedo beeing Nintendo they gave a damn about 3rd parties. In this time, Sony and MS gave their pitch to them and they realized that it made more sense so scratch almost all plans for the Wii U and bring all their big guns to PS4 and One. It was Nintendos job to not let that happen and they botchered it. That is all, no big 3rd pary conspiracy.

TheRealThanos

#239

TheRealThanos said:

@SCAR392 All true, but there are a lot of other VERY true things in that article. 'Only Nintendo will make the hardware sing' probably being my favorite. And it's a fact too, since they've always done that; showing other developers how to get the most out of Nintendo hardware. Unfortunately it is also true that both the CPU and GPU, even though it is General Purpose, is still miles behind the other two. Nintendo is only just now experiencing the troubles coming with an HD console (RROD/YLOD, anyone?), as also mentioned in the article, while the other two already had that experience 7 years ago and they now have developer friendly consoles. I don't agree with the 'hard to develop for' bit, but of course the other two are becoming more like 'PC's in a console box' and the Wii U still has it's unconventional hardware, so obviously porting to the other two is simpler and faster. Coupled with the installed base that more or less closes the mystery case of the missing third party supporters. Here's hoping that Nintendo will drop backwards compatibility next time (besides offering that on some of their handhelds they only started doing that since the Wii anyways) and also come up with a 'PC in the box console'. After all: they could then still make innovative peripherals or ways to interact with it that would rhyme with their philosophy.

Pod

#241

Pod said:

An sparsely funded port on a Nintendo system has trouble making back the money invested in pre-launch development.

How incredibly surprising.

Really though, It's awful with Nintendo's technical documentation being so bad after a full year's delay of the system. And then the poorly thought out and barely advertised launch certainly didn't help either.

Any technical team with any knowledge of Nintendo would know that their questions would need to be translated into Japanese. If it's a "major publisher" they should be able to get hold of a translator for a few hours and set up a meeting that would straighten out the issues much more immediately. Even if it meant someone having to stay up late for the time-zone differences to be accounted for.

Discostew

#242

Discostew said:

Sorry, but this whole "secret" business sounds like a copout. Almost like someone that doesn't want to lose is job in case he's wrong. That's thing with internet anonymity. No consequences. If he's not confident with revealing his identity with what he believes in, then he's a coward for hiding behind the curtain. Anyone can be anonymous and say whatever they want on the internet, assuming a position relevant to their claims. Doesn't mean much compared to folks like Renegade Kid who openly stated the exact opposite. They didn't have to, but they did, and stand behind their statement as a known game developer.

Kid_A

#243

Kid_A said:

Pretty interesting stuff. To be fair, though, most console launches are nightmares for third parties. Seems to have improved, anyhow, as the recent third party ports have been great on Wii U.

unrandomsam

#244

unrandomsam said:

@TheRealThanos Rare managed to make stuff at the same level as Nintendo and do well. To do well on NIntendo you have to be as good as Nintendo and consistently. (And make exclusives.) If they are good enough then chances are Nintendo will either take a stake or buy the company outright.

TheRealThanos

#245

TheRealThanos said:

@unrandomsam Rare was good, and close to, but not as good as Nintendo themselves. Besides that they were second party, not third so in relation to this article that isn't a relevant example.

Caryslan

#246

Caryslan said:

@unrandomsam Rare was a second party of Nintendo during their glory days, so they really don't count. I know they had some successful titles before DKC, but their glory days was due to Nintendo haaving a direct role with them.

Once they left Nintendo's umbrella, Rare quickly fell apart. Retro is a great company now, but that's because of Nintendo's direct involvement with them. Nintendo has to support them, they have invested money into them and given them access to their IPs. Next-Level games will likely be a Nintendo second-party in a few years. I would not be shocked if Nintendo is invested some money into them as well.

Rare and Retro are the same as Naughty Dog for Sony. They are second-party developers who a hardware maker has put a large stake into. That means they have access to the resources of their parent company, and are pretty much guranteed a publisher.

Rare can't be compared to Capcom, Sega, Konami, or any third-party developer. During their glory days, they had the direct support and of Nintendo to help them out. Yes, they made games at Nintendo's standards of quality, but that's because Nintendo expected to get everything out of their investment. They has access to Nintendo's knowledge. It was in Nintendo's best intrests to see them be successful.

That's in sharp contrast to a company like Sega who might make a exclusive game, but does not really have access to Nintendo's resources and must take all risks themselves. If Sonic Lost World Flops on the Wii U, does it hurt Nintendo?

No, because Nintendo has no direct stake in the game. But DKC: Tropical Freeze flopping would hurt Nintendo, because they have a direct stake with that game.

Rare in its prime was no different from Hal, or Intellgent Systems. It was a second party, which meant Nintendo had to be there to support them. Can the same be said for third-party developers?

KittenKoder

#247

KittenKoder said:

This explains the lack of interest in the WiiU as well. Nintendo appears to be seeking that happy medium, where they can accommodate more devs while maintaining profits. The sad fact is that they have not quite found that medium.

The 3DS has found it's spot on the market, let's hope they find it for the WiiU soon as well. Develop the hardware more, make it more capable, and they should have the winning mix by the next generation Wii console.

sdcazares1980

#248

sdcazares1980 said:

Even if Nintendo were to jack up the first party releases, it would still be miles behind from the Xbox One and PS4 because there is no third-party support. Nintendo and Super Nintendo were successful because of third-party support, but that's not the case anymore.

nungi

#249

nungi said:

If these guyz stole one of Nintendo games out of Nintendo brains don't you think it will sell over a lifetime.you make something good and (it doesn't come overnite neither)I think I'll buy it and the many more Future U owners will add it to their library so make crap and expect people who don't have moni to eat will spend $60 for garbage.Seems like Nintendo will have to make M rated games and Fps lol

TheRealThanos

#250

TheRealThanos said:

@sdcazares1980 It more than likely helped them along quite a bit, but people buy Nintendo systems for Nintendo games and they always will. By the way: on the SNES, Super Mario World, Donkey Kong Country and Super Mario Kart were by far the best selling titles, so no third parties in the top three then... (Super Street Fighter came in 4th)

nungi

#251

nungi said:

Think Nintendo have something coming for them a line of 1st and second party poopoodoodoocacapoopledoopledoggiepoops that's going to make FULL USE OF what they have dont see Revalations was a problem to put on U and barely touched nothing that would overheat so put your talent where your mouth is
You've been asked repeatedly to watch the profanity, the next step is a temp-ban. Please be more careful in the future — TBD

sdcazares1980

#252

sdcazares1980 said:

@TheRealThanos It is true that people will buy Nintendo systems for Nintendo games no matter what (I'm one of them), but I wonder how long will that hold water. People just can't afford to buy 2 systems now. I will concede on Mario Kart and Donkey Kong Country for the SNES. Sonic did the same for Sega, but we're not living in that era anymore. It's now the third-parties that will be the determining factors.

TheRealThanos

#253

TheRealThanos said:

@sdcazares1980 And don't forget Super Mario World. The order I put them in is 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I think that in the end the Wii U will be this generations' GameCube. For us that may look like a loss, but even with the GameCube, Nintendo made quite a profit and it is part of the reason (next to the obvious handheld successes) that they have such a healthy bank account today. I'll still pick them as my first console any time...

TheRealThanos

#255

TheRealThanos said:

@sdcazares1980 No need to wonder: it will, easily. People need to stop all the doom and gloom and I hope you're not going to name Sega as an example, because that was an entirely different situation. I've outlined Nintendo's finances before and there has been an article on NLife about it. Can't seem to find it though, so here's one from another site:
http://www.gamesradar.com/nintendo-doomed-not-likely-just-take-look-how-much-money-its-got-bank/
Now in the version that I outlined, taking into account current standings and how the Wii U is faring, even the most pessimistic forecast I can come up with is 2035 before Nintendo has nothing left but their IP's to sell.
Of course anyone with half a brain knows that this isn't going to happen, because it would mean that not only the Wii U would need to totally fail, (and mind you, contrary to popular belief it hasn't failed by a long shot yet, so that final verdict needs to wait) but also the next two consoles AND handhelds they bring out. You certainly do not have to be a fanboy to realize that this is hardly a situation that is realistically going to happen.
Take it to heart and please keep a sane and logical mind about it. Nintendo will outlive the both of us. If any company is in danger of going under, it's Sony. They have gained a second lease on life thanks to the success of the PS4. They've suffered so many financial losses in both their video and audio departments, that they desperately needed this success, but objectively speaking it would be very bad for the entire business for any of the three to have to leave.

SCAR392

#256

SCAR392 said:

@TheRealThanos
I was thinking that, too, as far as figuring out HD and such. I wouldn't say Wii U's hardware is miles behind, though, unless I'm misunderstanding what you wrote.

These systems are all built differently, so you can't directly compare any specs, directly. You have to translate, then compare. In this case, numbers represent different values. Clockspeed(and currency) is the perfect example of how numbers represent different values. Or even look at the golf scoring system. A lower score is better.

Just thought I'd throw out some examples of how numbers are used in some case. It all depends on the relation between these numbers, because you can't directly compare 1 and 2, if said numbers mean something else.

EDIT: That's where I think most of the misunderstandings are coming from. No one ever should have doubted that Wii U was more capable than any last gen system, but finding out how it compares to Xbox One and PS4 will take alot more than comparing numbers to find out.

TheRealThanos

#258

TheRealThanos said:

@SCAR392 If you take the CPU and GPGPU and compare them to what is used in the other two, they are indeed leagues behind, but in practice what matters is what you do with it, otherwise Ferrari would win the F1 races every time. (how about that for an example? ;)) Just having the best hardware means nothing if you don't work it. Good titles will come, and the Wii U will more than likely do a bit better and will at the end of it's run score a reasonable average. (not expecting them to do a 3DS move, realistically, but still... )
The thing is that Nintendo has made some less fortunate choices when designing the Wii U; they just HAD to make one that is small and very energy efficient, hence the very humble CPU. The GPGPU can do some great things and the eDRAM inside can multi-task data by a factor of 4 to 8 compared to 'normal' RAM, but the fact is that if you do an overall comparison to Xbox One power wise, it is about 2 to 4 times weaker, and the PS4 is a bit stronger than the Xbox One, so that would probably make it 3 to 5 times. But on the other hand, they still have the 60fps and 1080p cap, and already games are known on the other two platforms that have a VERY hard time locking these two, nowadays hardly shocking, values so if Nintendo can get Wii U's marketing right and can mend at least some relationships with third parties (or just up the installed base and they will come automatically, because there'll be profits to make in that case) then the Wii U will do okay. Like I said some comments ago, it will then become 'this generations' GameCube' and will make them a profit still.
You are right about clock speed, though. That says absolutely NOTHING. Fanboys like to be able to say things like: 'that is only a 1.6Ghz CPU and the other one is 2.4Ghz so it will completely destroy it' but there are so many other factors to take into account that I'd sometimes even dare to call it extremely tiring and annoying to try and explain that to those types, since their ears are plugged with unhealthy doses of BS and they do not care for truths or facts, even if they would be staring them in the face.
@Laxeybobby Realistic racer wanted? Project CARS will DEFINITELY be your poison...

Caryslan

#259

Caryslan said:

@TheRealThanos Yeah, but the strong third-party support that the NES and SNES got was a major reason why they won their generations. In fact, it could argued that the SNES' third-party support played just as much of a role as the first-party games did in allowing Nintendo to beat Sega during the 4th generation.

The NES and SNES charts are mixed, with both First and Third-party games being best sellers on those platforms. Compare that to Gamecube and Wii which barely have any third-party games on their best selling games list.

Nobody doubts the success of first-party games on the NES and SNES. But all Nintendo platforms have strong first-party support. What gave Nintendo the edge against Sega and their console makers in the 80s and 90s was the strong third-party support on those systems

Something that is lacking on modern Nintendo home consoles.

TheRealThanos

#260

TheRealThanos said:

@Caryslan That has some merit, but Sega had more than enough third party support too. As for what it was then: I would argue that the SNES especially had the better hardware overall, contrary to what Sega fanboys said and were thinking at the time. The SNES could display significantly more colors on screen at the same time, and audio compression/decompression was better. Personally I always thought the sound from the Genesis was a bit 'tinny' and only improved if you used the Sega CD add-on. And not having the most powerful console is currently what is biting them in the *ss.
And before you or anyone else steps in with a counter:
The N64 DID have better hardware than the PS1, it just lacked the CD drive to process larger amounts of data, the GameCube was stronger than the PS2 in just about every department (lack of a DVD drive doesn't count since that's not horse power related) and was only slightly less powerful than the original Xbox. GameCube had better lighting and transparency effects and also did some more efficient audio processing. So, the Wii was actually Nintendo's very first weak console, but it certainly didn't hurt them that much...
Anyway, here's hoping Nintendo gets it together in marketing and managing their relationships and we might just see a second coming, AGAIN...

aaronsullivan

#261

aaronsullivan said:

@Samurairu Assuming sarcasm in your post, but the gaming industry IS hard to make money in. 10's of millions? How many games do you think really make that much money? Plenty of games don't even break even, and it's quite regular for a development studio to go out of business due to one game not selling enough. I love making games but making money is the tricky part.

BlackStar9000

#262

BlackStar9000 said:

@akaDv8R total global sales of the 3ds is over 40 million now, but honestly that is mostly because of all the second party and first party games from Nintendo, hardly any 3rd party games sold well, RE revelations did (Best RE game since 4), can't think of many others though.

Samurairu

#263

Samurairu said:

@aaronsullivan I'm not being sarcastic and I understand your points. What I am saying is short is the gaming industry is one of the biggest richest industries which a huge potential to make large amounts of cash... Of course it's hard to be successful, if it was easy everyone would do it. The way you say you love making games, but it's tricky to make money is one good way to say that and I wish you success to reward you for your hard work, but these whining gaming industry members who try to blame others for their misfortune and take part in bashing Nintendo, because Nintendo is different and doesn't do things like everyone else to make it easy for them.... I have no patience for those whiners. Then they should go work as something else. I have a close relationship with Japanese, I go to Japan many times for weeks on end. The way Nintendo is talked about is often borderline or racist by how it propagates stereotypes as facts. I deal with large and small Japanese business's. I really have a hard time believing Nintendo conducts business the way described in this article and other mainstream articles where people love to bash Nintendo. Like suggesting they can't speak in english etc... I just don't buy it and I'm at a point in my life where unless people can provide evidence to counter facts I have experienced, then I call BS. Sorry for the rant, but this isn't just about the gaming industry to me. The comments made by this spineless developer are inappropriate and I feel based in the cowardly fact knowing that Nintendo and many Japanese will not stand up for themselves. They still prescribe to the idea of not responding to BS in the belief defending themselves will only further grow the negative beast. They do not realize we live in a time where negativity rules with the masses and staying silent is an admission of guilt.

SCAR392

#264

SCAR392 said:

@TheRealThanos
I get what you're saying. I think Wii U is a system designed for advanced software, while Xbox One and PS4 are designed for advanced software, and software design. When it comes to running software, all the Wii U needs is to do is recognize software.

Xbox and PS need to recognize the software, then run it. From what I can understand, the Wii U has different tasks set for it, so the specs are no doubt, going to be different.

Xbox One already has development tools built into the console on a fairly high level. Wii U probably won't get a consumer level development kit like that, and I think that has more to do with how these consoles run.

In conclusion, Wii U won't have any trouble running software, but hardware heavy tasks won't be available, like the development kit I mentioned above.
The Wii U being able to run software is ultimately what is the most important here. The only hardware Wii U needs is enough to run software, not alter or develop it. That's what I think anyway.

TheRealThanos

#265

TheRealThanos said:

@SCAR392 Sorry to say that I'm not following you there completely, 'designed for advanced software, and software design'?
If you mean that the other two are sort of dev kits AND console in one, then you would be wrong, but I don't think you do.
Might be that you are over thinking and thus over-complicating things.
If you just look at it more simpler, then people may be able to follow.
Allow me to make a brief overview:
Xbox One/PS4 = PC in a box, easy to port to, needs hardly any extra work, already a better installed base = more third party support.
Wii U = proprietary hardware, more or less along the lines of the original Wii but more advanced, needs extra work for games to be ported to due to weaker hardware and a non-standard OS, low installed base = very little third party support..
Now, those facts are out there, but it doesn't mean doom and gloom for the Wii U. Like I said before: it's what you do with the hardware that makes or breaks a platform, and we all know that Nintendo has some great stuff lined up for the coming months. Now all they need besides that is better marketing, a steady stream (momentum) of titles, and getting third parties back. The last thing should be a cake walk when they nail the other two, since they will see to a bigger installed base and that in and of itself will result in Wii U attracting third parties again.

aaronsullivan

#266

aaronsullivan said:

@Samurairu
Okay, I hear you. I didn't get that from your first post, which sounded more like "boohoo, you work in a big industry of easy money and you found something disagreeable", but I see you didn't mean that. I've seen developers heap nothing but praise on Nintendo and others blame them. Says more about the developer than Nintendo I think.

SCAR392

#267

SCAR392 said:

@TheRealThanos
It really depends on what you consider "PC in a box". Xbox One doesn't have off the shelf parts that you can get for a PC, unless you're an engineer and know exactly what Microsoft has done in order to make the components in the Xbox One, in which case, you would have to mod parts to get similar performance, and it wouldn't have the Xbox One OS, anyway.

The consoles are built differently, and have different tasks. That's enough to throw any specs debate out of the window.

goonow

#268

goonow said:

My guess is the developer of wonderful 101. It is wii u only and the games graphics are mediocre considering the wii u is more powerful than ps3, but there are better looking ps3 games. Wonderful 101 also didnt sell very well either.

TheRealThanos

#269

TheRealThanos said:

@SCAR392 I wasn't aiming for a 'specs debate'. The other two are closer than ever to being a PC, that is a known fact. The Wii U is not harder to develop for, it is just that the software that it runs on in combination with the non-standard hardware (much more so than the other two) makes for more or different steps during porting.
And of course there are the lesser capabilities, that is not debatable. Engines are scalable, luckily, so that shouldn't hold developers back, but they can't switch on all bells and whistles, so when they port, they need to downgrade, and that might also take some work. Building from the ground up on Wii U is another story entirely, obviously.
Talking about a console 'not having off the shelf parts' is a moot point, since no console nowadays has standard chip sets, they are always customized/optimized. Besides that there are quite a lot of serious websites that take these consoles apart and study and explain the innards, so even if we may never get to know everything, we can get pretty close to a good estimate...
And I wouldn't say that consoles have 'different tasks': they all play games, but some have added functionality to accommodate other uses, but it's a bit irrelevant since ALL consoles have some multi-media capabilities now, some more so than others, but still...
As for me, I'm an IT sales & marketing professional with a 12 year track record of selling graphical workstations amongst other things, so I do happen to know a thing or two about hardware, I'm not just posting comments to go against the grain, I make my points largely based on fact. Not bashing you, just saying what's what.
And more importantly, I try to filter out the positives, in this case for Nintendo.
@goonow You can't be serious. That was made by Platinum and they are still making games for Wii U. Besides that they have been more than positive about the Wii U. Darksiders 2 is a much safer bet considering how that all went down...

WiiWillRockU

#270

WiiWillRockU said:

I hope Nintendo can get more third party support for their sake. I think the Wii U cycle will be like the cycle Wii had for me. I bought it about two years in to the cycle. Great first and third party games were out. Most third party games that were great were also cheap. Core Nintendo franchises were well represented with new features/ideas. I have a PS3 and I'm not interested in a PS4 or One at all. A lot of those great, can-only-be-done-on-this-type-of-awesome-hardware games like Skyrim don't sound so awesome to me with all those reported glitches, so why would I want a PS4 if PS3 games are still buggy?

SCAR392

#271

SCAR392 said:

@TheRealThanos
All I'm seeing is ×86 systems and a PowerPC console, here. The original Xbox was ×86, so I don't get what the concern is. They've made this sort of transition before.

I was just pointing out that none of these consoles are exactly "PC in a box". I get what you're saying, beside that, though.

I only see the Wii U becoming outdated a year or 2 before the Xbox One, at least. Wii U's newer components and modern structure are from 2011. That's far from anything Xbox 360 had, so I don't see any "downgrades" happening until further along.

Even if it does get outdated, that's far from determining whether a console will sell. Wii was basically a GCN 1.2, and they still ended up figuring out how to make games like Xenoblade. I'm not worried about software compatibility, one bit.

TheRealThanos

#273

TheRealThanos said:

@SCAR392 Okay, let's get to a close for now. (Yank living and working in Europe, it's 4:30am here now) Might also be why we sort of agree but keep talking past each other on some points; because it's so late I'm getting tired. And I am an old guy after all... ;)
First off, let's forget about last generations' HD twins for a moment, because my comments on ports mainly concerned games coming out on all the newer consoles.
I see no problem in compatibility same as you, they only have to adapt engines because Wii U doesn't support DX11 (according to some it does support some DX11-like effects, but no more than that) and hence the downgrade comment. For example, I could see a more advanced Xbox One/PS4 title at 1080p/60fps being ported to Wii U at 720p and possibly also a different frame rate, OR with considerably less advanced effects to guarantee the same graphical fidelity and frame rate.
The only thing I have on my mind other than that is the impact of older vs newer shader models (Wii U's being model 4, the other two consoles model 5) I know more about hardware than software, unless it's CAD...
The determining whether a console will sell part we agree on: that's why I made the 'it's what you do with the hardware that makes or breaks a platform' comment. Well, luckily I don't have to start that early, but I'm going to get some shuteye now, have a good one.
@goonow Dude, it's NOT The Wonderful 101. Seriously...
Besides, Platinum Games is a Japanese company. Why the hell would they need questions sent off for translation? EXACTLY...
And the sentence 'This naturally makes future projects from the company unlikely' is also a dead giveaway, since Platinum Games IS making more games for Nintendo. So that rules them out instantly.
That leaves us with this list: http://www.ign.com/wikis/wii-u/Wii_U_Launch_Games_%28US%29 so I guess you are going to have to make your choice from that list since it concerned a launch title and The Wonderful 101 isn't one of them...

michaelshellman

#274

michaelshellman said:

who ever these developers are,they should be ashamed to call themselves professionals. they hired a group that cant find a way to take advantage of a cpu? that sounds like an embarrassing issue for them not nintendo. not being able to make your money back on a game you made has everything to do with rather people like it enough to buy it or not considering you had the numbers of how many console were sold before you made the decision to develop a game on that console and instead of channeling that motivation into being more creative and financially efficient they have attempting to share there failure with the team of nintendo with a bad review. in case the developer are reading this comment here is some advice. first hire someone who speaks japanese that's an easy issue to tackle you cant get a high school diploma unless you take classes for a foreign language how can nobody in your team who has a passion to develop video games not be prepared for this? secondly shape up your team,you have a reputation to keep!you cant keep blaming the console every time your sells arnt up to par be a professional and over come the issue you face and be triumphant in the end

ecco6t9

#275

ecco6t9 said:

Arrogance from Nintendo or developer laziness from third parties?

Probably a little of both.

TheAdrock

#278

TheAdrock said:

Fascinating. All I can say is, "See, I told you so." Nintendo wasted a good 3-4 years just milking the old Wii sales and clearly didn't invest the time and energy into the next console as they should have been. Nobody to blame but themselves.

Yorumi

#279

Yorumi said:

@TheRealThanos I don't know for sure but I highly doubt the ps4 supports dx11. DX is owned by microsoft, in a console war I just don't see ms letting sony use that. The wiiU's chipset has already shown off some pretty advanced features. Also keep in mind the sheer number of these doom and gloom articles that have been debunked.

Before launch everyone was convinced the wiiU was weaker than a 360, oh wait it's not, by a lot. This is the problem with these types of articles, they feed on confirmation bias and appeals to authority. Look how many people are convinced, despite many articles contradicting what these "secret devs" say, that these devs know the truth and everyone else has some sort of ulterior motive and isn't trustworthy.

These are articles that prey on people who know nothing about game design, programing, or anything else in related categories. People who don't know these things just take what they say at face value, spread it around the internet, and then it becomes "oh well gee everyone is saying it so it must be true." Need I remind everyone these same type of people were convinced the vita was going to dominate the 3ds, nintendo had lost the portable market and it was just a matter of time before they went the way of sega. How's that working out for all the prophets of doom?

Platypus101

#281

Platypus101 said:

@SetupDisk this guy could get fired, should his company find out who he is... This is not cowardice, corporations are mean motor-scooters. More than likely there are contractual agreements that keep him from saying anything about his work. Should he be found out, he will more than likely lose his job, and get sued.

TheRealThanos

#282

TheRealThanos said:

@theadrock13 This is an article concerning the very first dev kit, it's once again an anonymous developer, they were apparently a VERY incompetent company for not being able to arrange for a translator, something that even you or I could do AT HOME. And he makes a lot of assumptions that have long since been debunked. Maybe you should save the "I told you so's" for a moment when it's actually appropriate, hmm?
@Yorumi I'm afraid you misunderstood. If you read my previous posts, then you would have seen that I am more of an advocate for Wii U than a critic. I'm just trying to be realistic about it without the fanboy blinders. Most statements I made in this topic however, indicate that I don't believe this developer or that it is because he had a v1 dev kit, so issues with that (if any) are already resolved by now.
You need to direct the stop doom and gloom message to people that think Nintendo is going to go bankrupt. I'm not one of those, so you're kind of preaching to the choir. No offense taken though, if somebody starts commenting on this topic now, it's a hell of a chore reading all the comments.
EDIT: that last comment was in general, and you were already commenting before. Still, you might not have read all my (rather long) comments...
And as for PS4: my bad, I read somewhere that they were going to provide developers with some kind of API to be able to port DirectX11 features more easily, meaning they don't have to circumvent DX11 when programming because it isn't compatible with or running on PS4. They actually use LibGMC and possibly OpenGL.

Platypus101

#283

Platypus101 said:

@Peach64 not sure how accurate the statement by the developer was... :( I have worked internationally... There are (and have been for quite a few years) human translation services. Simply put, you set up the call, a human translator speaks for both sides, giving the pertinent information. All this was done for a worldwide telecommunications company... Yes, every continent, any authentic language (not made up ones)

TheRealThanos

#284

TheRealThanos said:

And for all you doom prophets and pessimists out there, here is a VERY insightful comment that I found underneath the original EuroGamer article, made by someone calling himself Quinton_McLeod:

"Very interesting read, but what the developer is saying appears to have some holes.

1) He faults the manufacturing process of the Wii U CPU while negating the fact that the CPU inside the PS4 is actually bigger. He says the Wii U's CPU is a 55nm process, but it's actually a 45nm process. 10nm is quite the difference in the CPU world. He also throws around 28nm, but that's the size of one CPU module. The PS4 uses 2 CPU modules because it's two quad cores. Of course, the unit is an APU using AMD's full 7870 silicon. That makes it considerably large.

2) Wattage (power consumption) has never worked very well as a benchmark for performance. A good example is the i7 compared to the FX series of processors. Intel has AMD beat on performance per watt.

3) He then calls the Wii U "Shader Model 4" hardware, and claims the PS4/Xbone GPGPUs are incompatible to it. This is incorrect. The term "Shader Model 4" is a term associated with Direct X. As you know, Shader Model 5 is the latest version, and it's backwards compatible to Shader Model 4. Also, the GPGPUs are both created by AMD, and they use the OpenGL framework. To suggest these similar GPGPUs are somehow different or incompatible to each other is inherently false.

Considering the information provided, I now question how much this particular developer knew of the hardware he's been developing on. Especially when he himself admits to using an outside source for a lot of his hardware information."

Apparently a lot of people on EuroGamer also don't like facts or realism, because the poor guy has been modded down and now has -10 below his comment. Losers...

Rossdp

#285

Rossdp said:

Perhaps this has been mentioned somewhere in the previous 280-odd comments, but if we're still debating the identity of this mystery developer, then I believe it's inextricably related to 2K/NBA 2K13.

After all, if 2K was serious about backing Wii U, then surely it's latest flagship franchise - WWE - would have made it to Nintendo's home console, just as it had under THQ in all but two of the previous fifteen years (2001 and 2006 - between N64-GameCube and GameCube-Wii). That's a license that I don't doubt cost 2K Games a fair amount of money, and a decision that's the maneuver of a company that's "unlikely (to) ever release another Wii U title". Likewise, there's been no sign whatsoever of NBA 2K14, Bioshock Infinite, Borderlands 2 and the rest of the 2K Games canon.

gregrout

#287

gregrout said:

I really think you're all missing the point here. Nintendo rushed this console out the door and left 3rd party developers blowing in the wind. Leaving 3rd party software developers spinning their wheels for weeks at a time waiting for answers to be translated is a huge expense to these companies. This stupidity on Nintendo's behalf lays the foundation for the console's reputation. If you're a developer and you hear that company X shelled out 4 weeks of developer pay for zero results as they waited for Nintendo to "get back to them" I'd steer clear of the Wii-U too. As expected the Wii-U is going to be forever dependent on in-house titles. To take that into account and you factor in how many titles these in-house developers can make in the life cycle of the system and the console's future doesn't look very bright.

Yorumi

#288

Yorumi said:

@TheRealThanos yeah part of my response was mostly a rant against these kinds of doom topics. My whole post was really poorly written. Anyway your quote in #284 says what I was getting at just much better.

@gregrout no actually we're not missing that. The guy in the article doesn't know what he's talking about and doesn't understand hardware. You have confirmation bias, there are lot of articles that contradict this and you're ignoring them because you agree with this article.

Any competent programer should be able to figure out how hardware works and not need their hand held by the devs. Often times the devs of various engines and platforms are unavailable. This guy is basically whining that he had to do some actual work. If they couldn't experiment on shaders on their own in 4 weeks that says more about the quality of their "talent" than anything else.

TheRealThanos

#289

TheRealThanos said:

@gregrout And I think you're missing the point of most of this story being BS. Nearly all of it has been debunked. If you had ACTUALLY read some of these comments (or basically used logic or common sense) then you would know that they would not have to wait for text to be translated (hell, you could even hire a Japanese language student from your own town, or from somewhere nearby) and it is hardly realistic to suspect ANY company to leave parties that want to support them and make software for them high and dry for weeks. Also, not very gentleman-like of you to throw everyone on a large heap and generalizing it to bits. There actually are quite a few people on here with a more informed opinion than that. Just saying...

gregrout

#293

gregrout said:

IBM's PC Power chip is only a small component of the Wii-U, just like the GPU. Interestingly enough you complete glaze over the most unique feature on the console, the gamepad. This is unique, especially to game developers that make console and PC games. You can quote all the specs in the world and I'll show you a Wii-U library that still underutilizes the gamepad. Developers today are STILL having trouble integrating gaming features for it. That all aside, in reality none of it matters. As I said before it's the console's reputation that's the real factor. It's that reputation (deserved or not) along with poor sales that's steering third party developers away. Were 13 days into 2014 and there's already more reports of new 3rd party games that will be skipping over the Wii-U.

Yorumi

#294

Yorumi said:

@gregrout and how much did good sales of the wii help get 3rd party support? When the GC and the n64 were the most powerful consoles how much did that help? The 3ds has it's support but devs arn't exactly falling over themselves to make games for it. Furthermore we do have quite a few 3rd parties that are making games for the wiiU and praising it.

You're looking at a subset of the gaming world declaring that to be the end all be all of it.

gregrout

#295

gregrout said:

@Yorumi I agree with the sentiment of the article. I believe that the gamepad itself would cause confusion for game developers at least in the beginning (you have to keep in mind that these developers are keyboard, mouse and traditional gamepad centric). So I do think there was a learning curve at least in the beginning. If I was a betting man I would place EA as the source. They contributed greatly to the "we're not developing for the Wii-U" movement, they attacked the power of the hardware, questioned what place the gamepad's touchscreen in console gaming and they're an American company that would have to address a language barrier. I think that true or not, it's a perception that's sticking.

Yorumi

#296

Yorumi said:

@gregrout as I said earlier I'm a programer, the gamepad wouldn't give me even the tiniest bit of confusion. Sure I could never use it creatively, but nintendo never asked or demanded anyone use it creatively. Arguably it's the 3rd parties that have already used the gamepad more creatively than nintendo themselves. However, that's irrelevant, simply plastering and inventory, map, or just a copy of the gamescreen itself on the gamepad is easy.

Anyone who has used 3d tools has used multiple cameras in their projects to do things, pushing that output to the pad isn't anything complicated. Other than that the buttons are completely traditional in every single sense. Any dev whining about the gamepad is just that, a no-talent dev that's just whining.

As far as perception there's a reason people say ninendo "doomed since 1889", people have been out to get them since the beginning. Heck I think nintendolife themselves posted some retro news articles from other media sources in the '90s proclaiming nintendo was finished(while the snes was selling like crazy). Simply put there are a lot of loud voices screaming out there and when confirmation bias and group think takes over you can start believing things that arn't true.

This is why nintendo doesn't listen to all these armchair experts. As I said, remember how the vita with all it's power was going to crush the 3ds, nintendo was doomed cause they had lost the portable market and that was all they said and this would be the last gen they made any consoles whether home or portable? I sure do, it was all you heard everywhere on the internet from the day the vita was revealed through about the first year or so of the 3ds.

With prophets with such foresight I don't know why nintendo doesn't just pack up shop right now cause clearly it's over they already lost to the vita and don't know it.

TheRealThanos

#297

TheRealThanos said:

@gregrout I'm afraid that wouldn't be a very good bet. If you just take a minute to stop and think about it, do you actually believe that a company as large as EA, with the scale of resources they have, would run into an insignificant problem such as a language barrier? With all the companies under their wing there is bound to be a few Asian/Japanese people among them, and if not, said resources would arrange for one to be in place when needed in barely an hour.
The GamePad might be a thing, but I believe that it's not that big of a thing in the end. Developers nowadays also branch out into smart phones, tablets and touch screen PC's so they are already getting used to peripherals like that. Granted, with the Wii U there are different purposes for the second screen, but still.
The silliest thing though, is that we're all arguing over an article that is essentially set in 2011, when all of this supposedly went down. Any problems evident back then have long since been solved, as can be read in many articles on many sites, the link that @mudmask posted only being one of the many. In closing, I hope you are also willing to look on the positive site, because although we don't need more blind fanboys defending Nintendo no matter what, just coming here to complain about Nintendo is also hardly something one should do on a Nintendo related site... (and there is enough good stuff coming up this year, so why should we be so negative?)

gregrout

#300

gregrout said:

Here's my problem, if the Wii-U is easy to develop for then you have to ask yourself why did EA personally slagged the console repeatedly using social media? They could have stayed quiet about their experience instead of using the most public forum to "vent". The way I see it one of two things happened at EA, they had too much difficulty developing titles (a la this undercover report) or they were motivated to do so by bigger fish (e.g. Microsoft / Sony).

As for Nintendo; I do see the positives, so far they're all in house titles (e.g. Mario Kart, Smash Bros and X). I would like nothing more than Nintendo to succeed (own Wii, 3DS XL, 3 x 3DS and Wii-U, no Xbox/no PS). If I didn't have a gaming PC I'd honestly be loopy over the titles that are passing the Wii-U by.

TheRealThanos

#301

TheRealThanos said:

@gregrout Simple: money. Besides the (debatable) rumor that Nintendo refused EA's online system, the installed base of the Wii U is just too small for them to meet profit targets and another debatable rumor is that their engine is CPU heavy, making it run poorly on Wii U. Me personally, I just go with the money reason. They're a business after all.
On the other hand, if the rumor of Nintendo's refusal are true, then butt hurt could have emerged, since even EA's CEO's are only human...
You really have to take a minute, relax and try and see the bigger picture. I can cheat a little since I have been in IT Sales & marketing and next to sales and generating new business I also have to make financial reports and estimates sometimes. I have been doing this for more than 12 years now, so I have some experience on b2b affairs concerning hardware, software and so on. The console business isn't that different, so I can use my experience there as well. As far as marketing goes, Nintendo does need to step up and that would also help creating a greater installed base, and that in turn will bring back the third parties. Please do not be fooled in going along with all the doom sayers, because there's an awful lot of shouting but hardly any truth in it to be found at all, if you take the time to dig into it a little. Unfortunately there seem to be entire armies (mostly online and anonymous) wishing Nintendo to die or whatever. Hardly a thing anyone with half a brain would do, or maybe that's just my opinion...

gregrout

#302

gregrout said:

@Yorumi I hear you, but we have to look at the end results. There's a number of titles that aren't coming to the Wii-U, e.g. Elderscrolls online, Titanfall, GTA V, Tomb Raider, Alien: Isolation, Witcher 3, Dragon Age 3, Minecraft, Walking Dead (not the FPS), Borderlands, Sims 4, The Witness, Tom Clancey's The Division, Destiny... all of these top games and most anticipated titles of 2014 won't be coming to the Wii-U.

Yorumi

#303

Yorumi said:

@gregrout EA is an extremely vindictive company, and again this is confirmation bias. You are just flat out ignoring all the other comments by other devs who say the wiiU is easy to develop for. There are more people saying it's easy than that it's difficult but you're choosing to believe a minority of mostly anonymous people and entirely ignoring everyone else.

You are also looking at a minority of games and devs to determine what 3rd party support is. The wiiU has CoD, assassins creed, splinter cell, sonic, lego, racing games, both kart and more realistic, bayonetta, monster hunter, batman, and tons of indies that are making amazing games.

Some of them are pulling back because their games arn't selling but that's not really nintendo's fault, the market base for nintendo is not the same as sony and ms. Simply put the world of gaming is bigger than the few games that have a multi-million dollar marketing budget.

gregrout

#304

gregrout said:

@TheRealThanos I can see the money aspect due to poor console sales figures; but it doesn't explain the high-profile attack on the hardware, gamepad and network infrastructure. We also had a string of comments that certain development engines wouldn't run on the Wii-U (e.g. Frostbyte, Unreal 4 engine, etc.). These were somewhat refuted later; but again the console's reputation was damaged by this.

TheRealThanos

#305

TheRealThanos said:

@gregrout Why so doubtful? Things I told you like taking a step back and using logic and common sense are friendly advise. You should really try it instead of continuing to question everything. Not that I mind a discussion, but there has to be some progress along the way. Progress is looking forward, not back. So I think you really need to get out of your current mind set to be able to see the bigger picture here. As for your doubts/concerns about the various engines, I already handled that topic in another article. It's too long to post here, but if you want to read it, it's here: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/01/mercurysteams_new_next_gen_title_isnt_coming_to_wii_u#comment2163337 I'd call that COMPLETELY refuted, not somewhat. And it also happens to cover the money issue...
And there will always be people complaining for some reason or other, but in my 12 years of business 2 business experience if one company is complaining about the other it always has to do with money, so that is the underlying reason 9.9 out of 10 times. Also consider this: although you did name a healthy list of games not appearing on Wii U, if you take into account that they are simply too expensive development & marketing wise, then it is actually quite logical that they won't be appearing (yet) on Wii U, because they will not be able to recover enough of their investments, and they can't (fully) compensate for that with profits that they make on other platforms. And you also need to wonder why the positive articles are really starting to outweigh the negative (and mostly old) ones (I've counted them) and more importantly, many of the negative ones always talk about the start of the Wii U and the positive ones are all current opinions... hmm, there must be something to that, methinks...
P.S. Titanfall is currently Microsoft exclusive due to a deal they made with EA and will (for now) only be appearing on Xbox One and PC...

ghosto

#306

ghosto said:

When you have the exact same tools available to make a game that your competitor has and you keep finishing last place I've got some bad news, its not the hardware that is the issue, it is the operator. The whole anonymous angle is pathetic because these sources know the world will be rolling around on the floor laughing at them when they reveal their list of "accomplishments".

DarkKirby

#307

DarkKirby said:

This is just a repeat of what I said the problems were with the Wii U since the specs were released (although the notion that Nintendo seriously cared about the Wii U being quite not to bother "mom" is seriously horrifying, it's not as if the Gen 1 PS3 is a noisemaker, even with all the fans it's only as noisy as a basic room fan), and doubly after the PS4 and Xbone were released. Nintendo thinking they are going to get 3rd party support when their system is so far behind hardware wise to the competition is a fantasy, as is thinking they are going to repeat the miracle with the Wii selling to casuals with similar tactics. Casuals don't care about consoles, and they haven't for a while. Casuals are all about tablets and smartphone games now, they are not coming back.

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