News Article

Talking Point: Wii U vs Xbox One - Online Requirements and On-Disc DRM

Posted by Thomas Whitehead

A big deal, or a mountain out of a mole-hill?

Last week Microsoft unveiled its Xbox One, or the non-gaming aspects for the most part, and seemingly managed to confuse as many viewers as it hyped up. Those that opt for schadenfreude should tread carefully, however, as Nintendo's Wii U reveal at E3 2011 similarly baffled many in terms of what the system actually was — an expansion for Wii, or another portable system? The only proviso we'd throw in is that the issues confusing people about Xbox One are more complex, and even after fevered analysis in recent days some areas are still causing the scratching of heads, especially as Microsoft executives have a habit of making vague, contradictory statements.

As the heading suggests, we're going to consider what seems to be the case with the online connectivity requirements of the Xbox One, and also how it's set to handle on-disc DRM (digital rights management) and, by extension, the resulting impact on the used game market. We're just going to outline the latest info that we're aware of on these topics below, before we get to the important bit, your opinions in the polls and comments. We're focusing on the Xbox One in comparison to Wii U in this case as Sony's being rather coy on these topics to date; if you want a more extensive state of play summary for Wii U and its upcoming rivals, you can always check out our talking point on the Wii U's next-gen challenge.

So, what do we know so far? In terms of the Xbox One's online connectivity requirement, pre-reveal rumours that the system would be "always-online" proved inaccurate, which was the only sane outcome. It's clear that an online connection is integral beyond standards such as TV streaming or online multiplayer, however, as Phil Harrison explained to Kotaku that, as he understands it, games will need to connect once every 24 hours. Microsoft's official statement on the matter is as follows.

No, it does not have to be always connected, but Xbox One does require a connection to the Internet.

The clear point is that the One won't be a useless brick if your internet drops for a few hours, but an internet connection will need to be there in the first place — this is perhaps unsurprising with the range of media being implemented — TV, Skype, web browsing etc. Yet the daily connection for games also hints at the DRM system that will be in place; a great deal of related ire has gone Microsoft's way for confirmed aspects of on-disc DRM, and the potential impact on used game sales. What we do know is that game discs are essentially unique enablers, with the content being downloaded to the system's hard drive (or an external drive if the system's is full) automatically; the disc then has no actual use for playing the game. If you take the disc to a friend's system, you can play it when logged into your account — user accounts are in the cloud, rather than tied to hardware — but the game can only be played when logged into that account. When you go home and log into your system again, your friend will have the data but will have to buy the game to utilise it.

So, what are the negatives? For one, you can't simply lend your friend a game that you're no longer playing, as they'd also have to use your account on their console; this system drives people to buy the game for every system. It's rather like the scenario with Nintendo eShop download games — albeit with cloud-based user accounts — in that once you buy those games they're yours alone, and you have no way of traditionally lending them to others. The Xbox One goes further than the eShop as this is no longer optional, but part of physical copies.

And this is where a current hot-topic comes up — the role of used game sales, which are integral to retailers and also a significant proportion of the gaming community. What we've outlined above shows that it's not simply a case of taking your disc copy into a store for cash or credit, but that the DRM adds Microsoft as an additional middle-man. Officially, Microsoft executives have vaguely stated that a framework will be in place to allow used game sales, but has stated that more will be revealed at a later date. Retailers will seemingly need to be part of the cloud-based system to enable these transactions, as any data or license related to your account for a given game would likely be revoked when you trade it in. Like when you sell a game disc, it's no longer yours, but this system takes that idea to data on your hard drive.

Short of solid answers, Eurogamer has spoken to retail sources which suggest that Microsoft will set activation fees to be paid by retailers; part of that fee goes to Microsoft and part to the game's publisher. One arguable benefit, if this is true, is that publishers will receive some money for used game sales, while a negative is that Microsoft can essentially set the prices of used games. If an activation fee is $40 to the retailer — that's purely hypothetical — then you're unlikely to see used copies for anything less than, say, $45. Rather like the DRM being applied to new games, this seems to be a method to drive more consumers into new game purchases, stripping away the simple process of lending games around or picking up older games for a song in the form of a used copy a while after release. However you cut it, it's a more complex arrangement than we currently have, and one that could be a disappointment for gamers that currently share games with friends or rely on cheap used copies. It's also a potential issue for retailers, of course, that are so reliant on the traditional used game market for revenue.

We'll see how it shapes up, but there's a reason that we've spent plenty of words explaining the Xbox One setup and said little about the Wii U's equivalent, and that's because Nintendo's system takes a simpler approach. As we've already reported, potentially affected business such as eBay Germany have highlighted the appeal of the Wii U in comparison, as it's easily catered to your circumstances. Is online required? No. You'd miss goodies such as Miiverse, the eShop and online multiplayer games, but the system doesn't need to go online regularly as a mandatory process. What about used games, or sharing copies with friends? Simple, sell your disc, or lend it to a friend; you pop it into the system and go.

We're highlighting these Xbox One details as issues and headaches, compared to the simplicity on Wii U, but are they? We want to know how important these issues of on-disc DRM, mandatory hard-drive installs and online connectivity are to you. We cite Nintendo's approach as the fairer way to treat gamers and make this hobby of ours so flexible, but we want to know whether you see it that way.

So let us know what you think in our polls, below, and also sound off in the comments. We know that these areas of the Xbox One will be different and potentially anti-consumer in nature, the PS4 is still a mystery in these respects and the Wii U plays it straight and old-school. Does it matter, or is this a big song and dance over nothing?

Is mandatory online connectivity an issue? (561 votes)

Yes, I don't think online should ever be mandatory

72%

Not for me, but I don't think it's a fair idea

20%

I'm not sure, to be honest

  2%

I don't think it's a big issue

  3%

Not an issue at all, welcome to 2013!

  3%

None of the above

  1%

Please login to vote in this poll.

Do you actively share games with other console owners? (551 votes)

Yes, and I think it should be allowed without restrictions

49%

I do, but I don't object to the Xbox One setup

  1%

I rarely do, but I like to have the option

40%

Never, so this issue doesn't affect me

9%

None of the above

  1%

Please login to vote in this poll.

Do you trade-in many games? (551 votes)

I trade-in often for cash and store credit

22%

Occasionally, but not often

34%

Not really, but I'd like the option to be simple

18%

Practically never, I keep my games or have download copies

24%

None of the above

  2%

Please login to vote in this poll.

What do you think of the used games market? (549 votes)

I think it's vital for some, and is fine as it is

45%

It's an important way for me to buy games I want

31%

I think retailers abuse trade-in/used game values, so it needs to change

16%

I think publishers should get a cut, as with the rumored Xbox One system

  4%

I'm against the used game market as a whole

  1%

None of the above

  3%

Please login to vote in this poll.

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User Comments (221)

DemonicNinja

#1

DemonicNinja said:

Wii u is a true next gem console unlike the Xbox one which is archaic and smacks of cronyism.

Whopper744

#2

Whopper744 said:

The polls don't' surprise me. I'm with the majority of us on this one it seems. Some people who don't have 60 bucks to spit out at a new game, rely on there being used games.

WebHead

#3

WebHead said:

I buy games new often, but I don't think companies should be too restrictive of used games. regardless of how it is handled, you have to allow the consumer fair use.

Treverend

#4

Treverend said:

For the ones who voted "Not an issue at all, welcome to 2013!" in the "Is mandatory online connectivity an issue?" are dumb... it's not about that! Sure you should be able to keep your console hooked to the internet at all times but it should not be required and it is a form of DRM. DRM of all kinds is bad. Number one reason I abandoned my 100+ games on Steam in favor of GOG.com. All DRM free. Still play a few of my Steam games though, like Civilization V but I haven't bought from them sense. It's much bigger than your understanding if that's really how you think about it.

neumaus

#5

neumaus said:

Okay, how many people here had to look up "schadenfreude"? >_>
/learned a new word
Imagine using this in the real world with someone, rofl.

Yamagushi

#6

Yamagushi said:

This won't be biased as hell or anything.. Rolls eyes.. Used games are bad for the industry. You don't get a "Used game" you get to play from the start and experience it no different than a new game. Unlike tangible items which wear and tear, and don't give me "the disc does" because if it didn't work you'd return it, you don't expect the disc to only read partially through the game.

Daz-brum

#7

Daz-brum said:

If i bought a game i have the right to borrow it to a friend to play not get a companies permission i own the game. Simples as it shoukd be!!

Whopper744

#8

Whopper744 said:

Hey, sorry @Yamagushi. I'm not sure if I see what you are trying to say. Maybe I'm just not reading it correctly (not being a smart elec, just trying to understand a little better)

nik1470

#9

nik1470 said:

Example one: recently brought mh3u by trading in games that weren't keepers. Example two: Wasn't sold by original bioshock a friend handed me his copy and insisted I player it. Ran out after 1 hour and brought a copy.

Oopsiwin

#11

Oopsiwin said:

From everything I have heard, I am very happy that I went with the Wii U. I had an Xbox 360 until recently, and was excited for the new one until it was revealed. I'm gonna stick with my nintendo consoles (i love the 3ds) and maybe get a ps4 in the future, depending on what happens at e3 and beyond.

Yamagushi

#12

Yamagushi said:

@Joshers744 Used game sales return no money to the creators of the content, yet cost a sale. With normal tangible items this isn't a big deal, because there is plenty of incentive to buy new. With games you don't have to continue were the last person left off, like say a used car, you don't get the first "50k" miles back. Imagine if you could reset used cars back to their mint condition state, no miles, no damage, as you can with games. The new car market wouldn't be doing so well would it?

Yamagushi

#13

Yamagushi said:

"Example two: Wasn't sold by original bioshock a friend handed me his copy and insisted I player it. Ran out after 1 hour and brought a copy." This is the same example used by pirates. And while you may do this, most will play the free copy in front of them all the way through, return it to the friend, and never buy it. If your not BSing, you're a rare case.

Varia01

#14

Varia01 said:

It's like the Cold War. The Wii U is the U.S and the Xbox One is the Soviet Union. The Wii U is a free console (The U.S is a free country) allowing you to explore the internet freely and play games freely. Backwards compatibility has little control (The U.S's democracy has little control over the government) too. The Xbox One has a stupid mandatory online connection were most things require online and online connections are required (Enjoying how well the Wii U is doing and winning), used games are highly limited, no backwards compatibility (Where's my red lantern ring?!), and there are probably more limited features. The Xbox One may keep beating the Wii U at competitions (I personally think the Wii U is winning), but the Xbox One's gamers will eventually grow tired of the Xbox One and make the Xbox One change things up (The Soviet Union wasn't broke up by loss in competitions with the U.S, it broke up because the leaders thought it was time to do so). `Raises fist up and chants "Wii U is going for GOLD!" `

Oscarsome

#15

Oscarsome said:

I think any gamer on here can agree that restricting the used games market is ridiculous and the wrong step. If my friend comes over and I'm playing some game and he think it looks cool and wants to play it. I should be able to lend him the game so he can play it on his console or give it to him if I so desire. What's next? Movies? It's just so greedy and such a horrible move.

Whopper744

#16

Whopper744 said:

@Yamagushi. Ok I see your point on that.
I'm still not real sold on the idea though, personally. Especially with people like Nintendo still offering it, I feel like it would hurt Microsoft some. It may make people less interested in the system itself by a bit.
Plus, I like taking games to other peoples houses. I've done it for years and would hate to lose that. I think games work a tad different then other used items anyway. Kind of like used movies maybe. You get to start at the beginning of them too.

Yamagushi

#17

Yamagushi said:

@Joshers744 To some degree, but I think its extremely likely PS4 will be doing the same thing, as developers/publishers want this, not Microsoft and Devs/Pubs aren't going to have it on only one system. In which case people will just get used to it. And once they do, I assure you the next Nintendo console will do the same.

Yamagushi

#20

Yamagushi said:

@Oscarsome It's greedy to want to be payed for each person who plays the game? Curious, do you get paid for each hour you work, or only the first hour?

X-Conor-X

#21

X-Conor-X said:

God, I hope this flops. Wii U will be superior to the Xbox one, but, sadly, not to the PS4. Why is Nintendo always a step behind in graphics and power? One step ahead in innovation, but it means nothing if no one wants to buy a system that belongs with the last Gens. Thankfully, this time around, we have a slight advantage due to Microsoft's mistakes. Trololololol.

Peach64

#22

Peach64 said:

None of that stuff bothers me at all. I can't remember the last time I lent a game to a friend, but it was probably almost 20 years ago now. And all my consoles have been 'always connected' since 2005. I'm not excited about the Xbox One because I haven't seen any games that interest me, but at the same time I'm not writing it off because they've said the reveal was for the console and E3 is for the games.

If I buy a Wii U, it will be because it has games that impress me, not because I can disable it's internet or because I can borrow games from a friend.

Oscarsome

#23

Oscarsome said:

@Yamagushi
It is very greedy. I can understand what you're saying: people are entitled to money for their effort. The thing is, games have always been something that you could lend to a friend or that you could still go and waste some money (but not much) to rent a game and try it out. Many of these gaming companies already make enough money. If anything, the used game market can help sales, too.

rmeyer

#25

rmeyer said:

I love the wii u.I'm playing through Zelda skyward sword for the first time and loving it. I loved my 360, but I'm really nervous and will not be buying an Xbox one until I hear positive results from consumers. From the looks of it, their might not be positive results.

LDXD

#26

LDXD said:

This is a HUGE deal next thing we will be buying games and have to renew the license to play the game every 6 months or so, its greedy and is a huge step in the wrong direction for the gaming industry that I refuse to be a part of!!
And by the way I always buy my games new and rarely lend games out its the point more and more of our rights or being taken away

Epicnessofme99

#27

Epicnessofme99 said:

For me the used game thing is a double-edged sword, on one hand I believe the developers should receive money so they should be extinguished, but if they create a used game fee through having a code for that particular game you are unable to share.

TheAdrock

#29

TheAdrock said:

Translation: people who live in a rural setting cannot use the new Xbox. Believe it or not, many homes don't have internet; most rural areas only have dial up options. And the issues with used games could also be a major fail. As of now this new Xbox looks like a total flop.

strongest_link

#30

strongest_link said:

While I understand that consumers are against this, this may be ultimately a necessary measure for the industry. Games are getting more and more expensive to make, and every year more games don't see a return on the investment that was made in them. In the used game market, only the retailers/rental vendors see those additional profits, not the licensor, the the publisher, and not the developer. The alternative to this strategy of DRM may be to drive up the price of games, fill games with advertisemnts, or cut back on budgets. Unless games stop getting "bigger" the additional revenue has to come from somewhere.

cmk8

#31

cmk8 said:

I'm not that bothered by this either, I buy a lot of used games as I think prices are too high but it does bother me that the makers don't see that money.
I never sell games nor lend them out.
Many game companies seem to be struggling so this should help - downloadable demos can get round many of the rental issue. Hopefully this will help new game prices fall so customers won't be too inconvenienced (might be bit too optimistic there!)

DualWielding

#32

DualWielding said:

What they should do is offer the two options, Physical copies are free as usual and digital copies are DRM restricted but about 20% cheaper.

theblackdragonAdmin

#33

theblackdragon said:

There are legal precedents with regards to lending, borrowing, trading and reselling your physical personal property, up to and including a game cartridge or disc. Equating the act of lending a game to a friend (or even someone in the same household with a separate console) to piracy is flat-out ridiculous to me, and I find it offensive to be honest. I grew up in a three-kid household, we each had our own handhelds and since we had two separate rooms, one Christmas we actually got our own SNESes, one for each room. If we'd had to pay a fee to share games across consoles, our parents would've been bankrupt with a quickness. my husband and I each own a 3DS now, we both had DSes and still have DSis as well, and we regularly share games together. if we had to pay extra whenever we wanted to share a game, my wallet would be a damn sight lighter than it is now.

I understand that gaming companies are trying to corner that resell market, and that's fine, but charging to allow someone else to borrow a game is flat-out ridiculous to me — no one charges to allow you to let a friend play your DVD on their player during 'bad movie night', you aren't required by a jewelry designer to pay a fee if you borrow a friend's brand-name bracelet to wear at your wedding, you don't have to pay a fee to check out books from your local library. And what about services like GameFly or Redbox? They've already paid the same way Blockbuster and the like used to do — there's a higher fee and/or a license paid when you legally purchase a game for the purpose of renting it out. if i ran a service like this, i'd be pretty pissed off that i would have already paid that much and my subscribers are being hit with further fees afterthefact; i'd probably be getting complaints left and right.

Microsoft is making their bed, and that's fine — it's theirs to lie in afterward, after all. I suppose we can only wait to see how it'll all pan out, but i think it's a stupid move overall. and don't even get me started on requiring internet access to play a freakin' game, haha! absolutely ridiculous.

MasterGraveheart

#34

MasterGraveheart said:

While I think the used game market is important, I think the monopoly run by GameStop is kneecapping new ideas and IPs from flourishing. Do you really think we'll see another Ivy the Kiwi game ever again? Or even another Moon? No. They'll end up used at GameStop where they get 100% of the profit and the developers get swallowed up by the sea of AAA-releases that GameStop consistently pushes into the public spectrum. We need to take this power away from GameStop. They're the whole reason this is even an issue right now.

The Game OverThinker actually had some really good ideas about that and while it may be too late to stop the XBone and even the PS4, which is rumored to have some major used games issues themselves, it's worth a look. It's kept GameStop from being my first place to get video games nowadays.

Oh, and warning? NSFW audio:

The Game OverThinker V41 - The Revolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C2xRYUDbvI

nik1470

#35

nik1470 said:

@Yamagushi ok I'll give you another example. I played the dead space demo and hated it. My mate brought the full game and said it was amazing(he trades everything in) said I could have for a tenner which was less than the trade in. I played it, loved it (still own it) and went out and brought Dead Space 2 brand new. Did EA loose out? Or did they gain a fan? I assure you I'm not the only one. The bioshock was a steelbook and I still own it.

Yamagushi

#37

Yamagushi said:

"There are legal precedents with regards to lending, borrowing, trading and reselling your physical personal property." Yup, legally you can do whatever you want with that physical peice of plastic, the data on the disc however is not yours. You may be "offended" by the idea, but it doesn't change the facts, lending your games to someone else allows them to pay without paying, same as piracy, get offended all you want it doesn't change that. Now tell me, if you burned a pirated copy of a game, and lent it to your friend meaning he returns it to you, how is that any different than borrowing a real copy?

Yamagushi

#38

Yamagushi said:

@nik1470 You didn't pay the developer for Dead Space 1. Just because you bought the sequel it doesn't erase the original lose.

ueI

#39

ueI said:

I think it's common sense for internet to be required for online features and not required for offline features.

Regarding used games, I think I'll paraphrase the comment I left on purexbox. If disks can't be traded and aren't required for any game, why even make disks? Might as well make everything download only.

@theblackdragon You would have 100 likes by now if this site had a like button.

Whopper744

#40

Whopper744 said:

Why has this not been a real issue until now is something else I'm wondering. There is not a problem with me lending a game to a friend. I agree with ya @theblackdragon

DualWielding

#41

DualWielding said:

@Yamagushi

No its not the same thing as piracy because when you lend you cannot play yourself. It's only a problem for Microsoft because their games are going to be installed on the hard drive but that's a problem that they created for themselves....

Scollurio

#43

Scollurio said:

If they want to raise the general price of new released retail games and/or raise the price of used games and have some control over my buying/selling behaviour they a) might want to increase the quality of their games by a 100% (no day one patches, on disc DLCs and basicly all the same bland games all over again) and b) will have to do with a lot less money spent on gaming (besides on Nintendo) from me.

Seriously, whatever the news of the near future bring, it all comes down to one thing: Gaming is stagnating. I salute all the awesome Indies and Startups that dare to bring back gaming glory of the 80's/90's and early 2000's.

Gnoll

#44

Gnoll said:

@Yamagushi
I dissent. As a not-very-rich child, I grew reading used books and comics. They, like games, give you the same experience as new ones. Are used books bad? In that case I think libraries are bad too, as they let many many people read the VERY SAME book!!! Practically the pirates of literature!! ;-)

theblackdragonAdmin

#45

theblackdragon said:

@Yamagushi: You're right, the data on the disc is not mine. However, you are mistaking 'data' for 'bubbles burned into the surface of plastic with a laser' (i know, it's a very general description, but that's what it boils down to). I do not own the code, however I do own those bubbles burned into that piece of plastic, and they are mine to lend out however I please, as I have purchased them with my hard-earned money. It's just like a piece of jewelry, a book, a car, a paintbrush. I have purchased a physical object and it is mine to lend out or resell as I please. It is not equatable to piracy.

As for your potential scenario, it makes no sense in context with what we're discussing here. You are talking about downloading someone else's backup copy off of the internet, something they had no right to make available in that manner. They are free to resell their bubbles-on-disc that they originally purchased, but they are not free to rip the code off of that disc and make it freely available to others.

Yamagushi

#46

Yamagushi said:

@theblackdragon The experience of playing the game is a service, you have no legal right to give away someone else's services.

As for the games, the point was in both cases, someone who didn't pay for the game has access to it, and plays it through without paying for it. It doesn't matter if it's your friends game, or a game downloaded off the internet. Yes both originals were paid for, but not by the person now playing it. It does an equal amount of damage from a financial sense regardless if its your friends game, or someone on the internet's game.

Yamagushi

#47

Yamagushi said:

@theblackdragon In the example of this DRM, you still have your bubbles on a disc. And you can still sell your bubbles on a disc. But like you just said, the code isnt yours. So when it doesn't run for the next guy, your rights weren't violated.

HeatBombastic

#48

HeatBombastic said:

I need used games not because I don't have some extra bucks to buy the newest Wii U game, but because of old games that aren't being shipped anymore. Such as hidden Wii and DS gems at the end of its life-cycle. Certainly buying a used Conduit 2 for the Wii won't hurt the industry.

theblackdragonAdmin

#49

theblackdragon said:

@Yamagushi: The experience of playing the game is a service, you have no legal right to give away someone else's services.

However, when lending out a game in the manner described, the other party will have already purchased the console required to play it. No, I don't have the right to write an emulator to give away the code-interpreting/game-playing 'services' the Xbone supplies. I can loan my console to a friend if I like, however (unless M$ plans to charge per IP accessed by the console next!)

As for the 'it does an equal amount of damage' statement, you have no facts or studies to back you up on that. I hate to say it, but it's the same thing as the 'piracy vs. game sales' argument — no hard studies have been done, so we can assume all we like and make up all the numbers we please, but no one really knows for absolute sure what monetary 'damage' is or is not done by either piracy or simply lending a game to someone else.

also, I'm not talking about just 'in the example of this DRM'. I'm talking specifically about your continual insinuations across this site today that lending a game to someone else equals piracy, which it does not, and I find offensive. with regards to this DRM specifically (as I stated in my original comment to this article), I find it a ridiculous move on Microsoft's part, and I hope they like the feel of the bed they're making.

SuperJoon

#50

SuperJoon said:

@Yamagushi Ive done it loads of times where ive borrowed off my neighbour, enjoyed the game so much ive gone out and bought the game new. Fable 2 and 3 being my example. My wife enjoyed them so much as well that she bought copies for her own Xbox. So we could play together in each others games.

These i dont believe are rare cases. I think loads of people do it, im not saying that people dont just borrow and play and dont buy the game themselves, i just think you've made a mountain out of a molehill over the amount of people that do it.

nik1470

#51

nik1470 said:

@Yamagushi pretty sure the only people winning here are Microsoft and the publishers consider Microsoft is NOT allowing Indies to self publish. So most devs will be on fixed rate contracts and will probably appreciate anyone playing the game that will take the time to stop and check out the desk they spent hours on that most people just walk past.

Yamagushi

#52

Yamagushi said:

@theblackdragon Buying a console does not equate to buying the game..

And as for "Piracy vs Game sales" that's not what I said. What I said needs no studies. In both cases somebody played the game who didn't pay for it. No research needed.

@heatbombastic You can buy conduit 2 new for 8$. Why do you need to buy used for more and lose the devs money? http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B003GB4UXI/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1369767155&sr=8-1&keywords=conduit+2&condition=new

@kingjoontoon "Ive done it loads of times where ive borrowed off my neighbour, enjoyed the game so much ive gone out and bought the game new." Pirates say the same thing, most people don't but it after playing it for free.

rjejr

#53

rjejr said:

@theblackdragon halla-freakin-llueah

I've been reading about all this used game nonsense for a week now and you are the very first person to mention the rental market. A weeks worth of blogs and replies and somehow game rentals never come up.

I rent games from both Gamefly and Redbox but I don't see any way for rentals to work on the X1.

Im glad Nintendo seems to be behind the times on this issue. EA is no loss for me.

Wamtu

#54

Wamtu said:

@theblackdragon About what you said about lending: exactly! Piracy you can download it off the internet from people you don't know. Lending games you have to actually know someone who owns the game. And used games were new games once.

And back when games were almost always "physical copies," someone would actually have had to have bought the game. And generally, when I lend a game, I'm gonna want it back, so they can't use my copy indefinitely (especially some of my friends, who don't exactly...take the best care of games).

And used retailers require a customer who wasn't interested in keeping the game. For every used copy, somebody would have to have bought a new copy. How is this comparable to piracy, where you can just generate a "free" copy practically from thin air? And besides, the claim that they don't suffer wear and tear is stupid. Missing manuals and shabby boxes, anyone? Honestly, I've turned down several used games for those very reasons. And by the way, sometimes a scratched disc will only play part of the game. It's happened from time to time that I'd play through a large portion of the game before it crashed, then I'd look at the disc and go, "Holy crap! How long has THAT been there?" Oh, and it would help sales for a franchise, if not that particular game. Several series I've bought the earlier games used because one of the newer entries looked interesting. Which brings me to another issue: what the heck will this accomplish when the game goes out of print, the number one reason I get a used game?! Plus, this is how it's always been in the past. Has the gaming industry collapsed yet?

Microsoft needs to realize that DRM is for stopping pirates, not customers. I can be a bit forgiving for a lot of DRM mishaps (it's really the pirates' fault, anyway. Without them, there wouldn't be a reason for DRM), but ones that seem deliberately targeting used game retailers? They aren't stealing. They are buying your product. This is like if book publishers used DRM to make sure only the person who bought the book read it. Honestly, if the book is still in readable condition, it's the same thing.

Y'know, when the Wii U was announced, I had little interest because it was, in my opinion, unspectacular (and appealed to an audience they didn't have). I remember all the doomsayers saying that Nintendo had really blown it this time. It seems their competition is trying to save them; Wii U will be the console that "doesn't suck." I guess we'll have to wait and see if Sony understands competitiveness better than Microsoft...

tchaten

#55

tchaten said:

The real problem is in 20 years or fewer will Microsoft shut down those servers that authorize games to be played?

From a collector's standpoint and a retro gaming standpoint this console is dead the day it launches. I love the fact that in 20 years the Wii U can still be played - it may not have all of the online gaming at that point, but the discs will play just fine.

Ryo_Hazuki-san

#56

Ryo_Hazuki-san said:

@DemonicNinja
i agree xbox one is not a true gaming console its a media hub for talking to a tv to change the channel (super lazy n dumb) and checking facebook like you have ADHD every 2 seconds lol sad wii u is a true NEXT gen GAMING! console!

AtomicToaster

#57

AtomicToaster said:

Thus far of the console announcements I may just stick with the WIiu. I don't really go on steam anymore. Even though there's good games on that I mostly don't have time for them because I have plenty to play between 3ds and Wiiu. I don't feel the need to pay for online because I'm not on often enough to make it worth it. And I'd rather watch a movie on netflix than play a game that wants to be a movie so many of the triple a games don't always appeal to me. I like games where it doesn't take a few hours just to get to the fun part. Brown shooters or big open barren lands like in skyrim don't appeal to me. The most interesting damn thing on the other consoles is the Last of Us and that's freakin' a game on last gen tech, if they showed that on PS4 people would have been like "OMG the GRAPHICS!" So the best looking game on Sony consoles is coming out on PS3 just months before the launch of the PS4 that doesn't have games that look nearly as good? Fail!

Yamagushi

#58

Yamagushi said:

"And used retailers require a customer who wasn't interested in keeping the game." Why do you people think, that you are entitled to a "refund" after playing through the game. You got what you paid for, end of transaction.

theblackdragonAdmin

#59

theblackdragon said:

@Yamagushi: You switched it up to discuss 'services', though. The game disc or cartridge on its own is useless, it requires a console to play it. The console itself is what provides the 'service' of playing a game for you.

As for 'in both cases someone who didn't pay played a game', it's not that black-and-white — in one case, one person who didn't pay for a game borrowed it from a friend for free. the act of lending was not illegal in any way, shape, or form under the law. in the other case, one person ripped the game code from their disc or cartridge and uploaded it to the internet (an act that is illegal under the law), and thousands of people downloaded it for free. Please tell me you can see the difference in both scope and legality.

nik1470

#60

nik1470 said:

@HeatBombastic I couldn't agree more I'm there are gems I haven't played that won't get a re-release and the second hand market is the only place to get hold of them. As they are normally highly praised but only manage modest sales.

MrGawain

#61

MrGawain said:

Lending games to people is a good way for them to gauge if they want to buy it themselves, as is renting it. I think the monetary benefits to Microsoft of taking a cut of the pre-owned market will be hit by both the bad press and limiting of their audiences and fan self marketing. They will have to rely on positive professional reviews to convince people to buy their full price game. Also how many people got a first game in the series 2nd hand, but rushed out to buy the sequel for full price on release date?

The games market is a closed $70bn- It will only rise by enticing new customers, not charging the existing customers more. People can't just magic up more money for each game. So people will buy less games- the big ones they REALLY want and know are great, and will miss out on the sleeper games that slip under the radar. The sales for these games will be cannibalised for people to afford the big games. This could also affect the amount of DLC is sold in the long run. If you don't own the game, you can't buy the extra characters, levels and items. You're also unlikely to buy the branded t-shirt, poster, action figures and official COD home pregnancy test (or whatever). Also, less people owning a game means they'll be less people playing that game online- which will affect the online experience.

And that's not taking into account the games may still cost more- trust me, they won't cost less due to this practise. I expect the company line is they need these 2nd hand revenues to pay for game development, but they won't get any more cash from their current customers and may scare them away in the process. And possibly put a few retailers of their games out of business at the same time.

Of course the alternative is to cut the budgets of these radically over funded games... nah, that would never work!

Nintenjoe64

#62

Nintenjoe64 said:

I think as long as DRM never interferes with the gaming experience, it's fine. I also think publishers should get something if they're continuing to provide an additional service such as subscription-free online. On the other hand, I worry that publishers will be able to force us to upgrade our CoDs or Fifas by turning off the servers after shorter and shorter amounts of time.

The same publishers need to acknowledge the importance of the used market for getting their less successful games into as many hands as possible. So many successful sequels gained sales because people played the original second hand or borrowed. If publishers can keep the prices of games high for longer, it might mean we never get bargain bucket gems like XIII and Freedom Fighters, just full priced guaranteed sellers like Fifa and CoD.

In summary, MS are entitled to charge whatever they want for a service and that's great for them and not so great for us. Hopefully people's wallets will speak and put an end to what MS is trying. The gaming industry was already worth billions without the need for online-DRM and no second-hand market. They're clearly just coming up with new ways to take our money and it has nothing to do with our gaming experience.

AtomicToaster

#63

AtomicToaster said:

I'll probably stick with Wiiu, maybe get a PS3 slim for bluray. I'll wait for the naughty dog games and the redesign before considering the PS4. Definitely not getting the Xbox One. Besides the difference between PS4/Xbox one and Wiiu looks like the difference between PS2 and Xbox. Not any big deal. I'm sure as the years go they'll be a bigger difference, but I think we got a couple of years before we really see it. I'd like to see a big open world game look as good as last of us. But the money involved in that would probably be insane so who knows if we'd ever even get it!

Backwards compatibility would have made PS4 a day one for me it's a shame they couldn't make a version of PS4 that had full compatibility with all of playstation's library!

Yamagushi

#65

Yamagushi said:

@theblackdragon You have a legal right to lend the hunk of plastic, not he experience of the game. Its not your experience to give to someone. And you keep focusing on pirated versions origins. In both cases, piracy and borrowing, a game was bought, and the person now playing it didn't pay.

And you all keep mentioning returning the game like that matters. Once you've played it who cares about returning it? If I destroy a pirated copy afterwords it doesn't erase that I played it for free, just like if I return it to the friend it doesn't erase that I already played the game.

theblackdragonAdmin

#67

theblackdragon said:

@Yamagushi: I have a legal right to the plastic and its bubbles and the experience that interpreting it with a legally-purchased console gives me and anyone I choose to share it with, up to and including my friends, family, acquaintances at work or school, etc. and so forth. With what you're describing, even the act of having a friend over for the day and letting them play through a game I've purchased on my own console would be piracy. How do you not see the difference in lending a legally purchased physical copy of a game to someone versus downloading an illegal copy from the internet?

rjejr

#68

rjejr said:

@Yamagushi - I was pretty sure you were just an annoying troll but thank you for that last completely asinine post so that now everybody will know and stop replying to you.

A refund? Really? We should all keep everything weve ever purchased and be hoarders, or should we fill up all the landfills as nothing we own should ever be resold?

Reuse, repurpose and recycle.

Royalblues

#69

Royalblues said:

Always online, while a bummer, won't deter me from buying this console. I mean be honest, most of us are always online anyway. We keep up with our bills from the cable providers, so I don't see what the big fuss is about anyway.
My biggest fear is that it won't have enough first party support, and exclusive games.
Quite the opposite situation is going on with the Wii U. So far, the PS4 is winning this new gen thing.

Mk_II

#70

Mk_II said:

Just imagine if this was implemented in the days of the NES or SNES... the very vibrant second-hand and collectors market we know would not exist at all.

OracleOfTruth

#71

OracleOfTruth said:

@Yamagushi - Sure returning matters. If I borrow "Mass of Duty: Resident Assassin L33T Edition" from a friend and love it, I'll probably go out and buy my own copy because he'll want his back. Not the same as smashing a pirated game disc.

Yoshis_VGM

#72

Yoshis_VGM said:

Hey remember now, the Xbox One is also a water cooler, so if your fridge ever breaks down, you can count on it to keep your water cooled. But chances are an Internet connection will be required for that functionality to work.

Wamtu

#73

Wamtu said:

@Yamagushi Currently I'm replaying several games I've already played. SEVERAL TIMES (man, Freedom Force is such a great game. Too bad the series was discontinued when they made Bioshock...). If I had given them away, I would be incapable of doing this. Your "experience" argument is invalid.

Please, you're not convincing anyone. And unless you work in the game industry, it really doesn't affect you if you're against used games. Just don't buy games used.

LDXD

#74

LDXD said:

@Yamagushi what if people that come over to play my system and was in no way what so ever involved in spending money are they stealing to?
So my friend comes over to play co op with me on my system he should pay a fee to?? Because he is getting the same experience as I am
Mind=blown

Wamtu

#75

Wamtu said:

Good grief, half a dozen people posted in the time it took to write my last post!

Oopsiwin

#77

Oopsiwin said:

@theblackdragon: I'm glad you are on here making sense and making good points. Too many comments (looking at you @yamagushi) are comparing things that are way too different to even try to compare and losing sight of the bigger picture.

LDXD

#78

LDXD said:

Microsoft could just install a fingerprint scanner on the controller each person would have to pay a fee of course

nik1470

#80

nik1470 said:

@rjejr are you the script writer for bob the builder because I'm pretty sure that's his motto. hahaha

well said but often naive people with strong ideals are mistaken for trolls when really they are just ever so slightly miss-ballanced in their opinons. Sometimes a little bit of debate can make them research their statements a little more.

Whopper744

#81

Whopper744 said:

@tchaten "From a collector's standpoint and a retro gaming standpoint this console is dead the day it launches. I love the fact that in 20 years the Wii U can still be played - it may not have all of the online gaming at that point, but the discs will play just fine."

^This. This really matters to me, who still on occasion enjoys hooking up my old SNES, 64, and the like. While they seem to have undying classics, I don't see how Xbox One could be anything like that in 20 years.

TheAdrock

#82

TheAdrock said:

@theblackdragon <-- She's right, by my way of thinking. I buy a book, I own the book, and the right to lend it to my sibling without paying a fee to the author or publisher. I don't own the copyright, so I cannot photocopy and distribute. But the book IS MINE. Game discs/cartridges should be treated the same.

brokenfang

#83

brokenfang said:

@Yamagushi: Your extreme views on digital ethics are insulting and borderline harassment. Take it somewhere else. Who are you to shove your twisted logic in my face? Exuse me? You are the law in matters of digital media ethics and morals? No you are not.

I will do whatever I want with my property. I paid for it!

And save your lectures for someone who cares.

please, let's try to keep it civil — TBD

FJOJR

#84

FJOJR said:

Lending games is something I used to do with my friend as a kid, I still do with my sister using 3DS, and I'm lending my Wii and GCN games to cousins now. Gaming is social and sharing has always been a part of it. Piracy is something different entirely. But sharing a good game with a friend or family member may lead them to get the game themselves or a sequel or other game from that developer or series.

Zup

#85

Zup said:

@Yamagushi So basically what you're saying is that if I were to purchase a Wii U game with my own money, then my little brother should have to go to the store and get his own copy just so he can play?! This is essentially the same as your friend argument.

Even Nintendo disagrees with you. If I download something on my Wii U user, all of the users on the Wii U will get a copy of the game that was only payed for once by me.

Best_

#86

Best_ said:

One thing I hate is when I go to sell a rather new game, they offer me $9-11 dollars, but then they put a price tag to sell for $49.99.

Rapadash6

#87

Rapadash6 said:

One thing I don't think a lot of people realize is that these DRM policies aren't just the work of the hardware manufacturers, but of publishers as well. Most of them have been pushing for measures against used game sales for sometime now, and Microsoft (and Sony as well, I'm sure) take those measures in order to avoid losing that vital support. For Nintendo, this could very well be one of the main reasons third parties have been hesitant to bring a lot of games to the Wii U (among other reasons of course), but in the end they are all only thinking of themselves and not the consumer. The sad thing is, this probably won't be seen as an advantage for Nintendo because the bias against them is so ingrained in the gaming culture, those ignorant gamers will still buy these systems up, even with a clearly better option right in front of them. Naturally this will set a new precedent, which will only allow things to become worse in the future, but at least we aren't playing on horrible Nintendo hardware, right?

andrea987

#88

andrea987 said:

@Yamagushi He wouldn't have bought it, had it not tried it. And then he wouldn't have bought the sequel, of course. And that's true for most people that are renting games, or even that are downloading it from pirates. The majority wouldn't buy a new full price copy. Now, if new copies would cost half of what they are now... Fight piracy more effectively, reduce the price for new copies, especially digital ones, that would be the sensible way to go about it.

mookysam

#89

mookysam said:

Equating the second hand market to piracy is actually rather offensive.

Microsoft and others in the industry really need to look at the bigger picture. Perhaps a start would be to stop blaming the consumer and look inwards. Gaming is an expensive hobby and not many people can afford to buy every single release at full price. For certain games, I would wager a good many people who buy a game second hand would probably not buy that same title new if second hand was unavailable to them. Moreover, by restricting how consumers can both access products and fund new purchases, policies like MS' will do nothing more than perpetuate the current AAA sickness that is blighting the industry. This is because pubs and devs will do everything in their power to gear their product to the widest possible audience and therefore provide it with the best chance of market success. In an age of spiralling development costs, how much has this already creatively bankrupted the AAA market? COD and Fifa and GTA will be fine, of course.

Perhaps what really needs to be done is establish a more balanced, perhaps tiered pricing structure for new games. Give people incentive to buy new, rather than making the audience feel like criminals for buying used or trading their games in. If games are offered to download, have regular sales like Sony does on PSN. Methinks many publishers and developers are currently vastly overestimating just how much their products can and should sell for, and the current £40-£50 model is fundamentally broken.

bassoongoon

#92

bassoongoon said:

This is too bad. The online requirement and the restriction of used games is not fair to the consumer, although I can see how Microsoft would want to make a buck or two off of used game sales.

I think in the long run this policy towards used games will lose console sales for Microsoft, which I think should be a larger concern than the used games market.

MetalKingShield

#93

MetalKingShield said:

I am 100% against having an online requirement. It's the principle. If Xbox One has this, I won't even entertain the idea of getting one.

Regarding 2nd-hand, I do occasionally like to lend a game to a friend, but to me it's more about resale value. I only buy a lot of games because I know I can sell them. If I don't like it, I've paid about £10 to try it, and I think that's fair. If Sony/Microsoft destroy the concept of resale value, forget it, I won't buy anything.

DESS-M-8

#94

DESS-M-8 said:

Digitally, launch ALL full retail games at £44.99 ($59.99) digitally at £39.99 ($52.99) on day of release and stay at that for launch period of 3 months. then drop to £29.99 ($39.99) for rest of time available digitally with periodic sale discounts. no digital game should still be at £49.99 months after launch. Dropping the price systematically and in a good time scale would see active day one purchase gamers still buying and paying a fair standard price. Those who tend toward 2nd hand games due to finances or sheer volume of games they want to play would adopt a wait a while and pay less approach rather than hanging on for cheaper 2nd hand copies. This would also help build the online user base of gamers for each game. Rather than swapping out an old gamer for a new one with the same disc, more people would own the game at the same time and give healthier online nunbers

DESS-M-8

#95

DESS-M-8 said:

Secondly.
I will NOT be buying an Xbox one. The wii u is an awesome machine and will see me entertained for the next 5-7 years. I guarantee it

Knux

#96

Knux said:

Microsoft has made the ultimate nightmare of a device. I cannot call such a POS a gaming console, because it's not a gaming console. It's essentially a multimedia DRM nightmare of a brick that is probably the most anti-consumer product I have ever seen in my life.

Your console has to be connected to the internet once every day? Utter BS. I remember my internet going down for a few days back when I was playing Donkey Kong Country Returns on my Wii, and I was able to play it despite my internet being non-existent.

Blocking used games is also utter BS. A person should have the right to buy games new and used. I buy games used because some of them are just not worth a whopping $60. I try to buy as many games new as possible, but most people like myself don't have endless amount of money.

Lending or giving your copy of a game that you bought to your friend being even remotely compared to piracy is utter foolishness. You bought the game, and so it's your right to do whatever you want to said copy.

The entire ''you should feel like a criminal if you bought the game used'' is such a wrong mentality that it will probably be one of the reasons why the gaming industry may eventually crash.

To everyone that is planning to buy a Xbox One, I have no respect for you whatsoever. You're essentially giving up your rights as a consumer and don't care if you are treated unfairly simply because you like to buy games. You're willing to basically buy a device that will become a brick if you don't connect to the internet once a day, blocks used games, and basically kills off retail games. I cannot consider you even a gamer at all, because you're not if you buy a Xbox One. It's just a device that has games as a bonus.

And the sad part is that I would have possibly bought a Xbox One had Microsoft not included all of this anti-consumer BS within it. Sony better not even think about going down Microsoft's route, or I can also skip the PS4. I can just stick with a Wii U, 3DS, and Vita for my eight generation needs. Because combine that with the massive amount of previous generation games that I still have to play or complete, and I can potentially game like this for years to come without ever buying another console.

Microsoft doesn't seem to care about their customers, so why should I care about their brick...oh I mean ''new console''?

bassoongoon

#97

bassoongoon said:

@Best_ , I totally agree with you on selling/trading in used games: its a rip off. I try to avoid selling games to retailers if I can. I would much rather sell it for a comparable price to a friend who will actually play the game and not sell it back immediately for 300%.

Yamagushi

#98

Yamagushi said:

@brokenfang Who are you to think you can sell someone elses work? You didn't make the game, you have no rights to let anyone experience it. And as far as the laws go, YOU DO NOT OWN THE GAME, you are granted a license for you and only you to play the game. Been that was since NES.

Yamagushi

#99

Yamagushi said:

This is a wasted effort. I should have known better than trying to argue this on a nintendo site populated by a bunch of entitlist 14 year olds who are used to getting things free. Fact is this is being implemented whether you brats agree with it or not. It will be on PS4, and it will eventually be on Nintendo consoles. So enjoy your entitled to the world views while it lasts. Cause the free rides over.

dizzy_boy

#101

dizzy_boy said:

Microsoft are making a silly move with the online side of things.
What's gonna happen to all of those xbox ones when it's not being supported online anymore?
There's gonna be alot of brick systems that nobody can play because they can't connect to the internet.

brokenfang

#103

brokenfang said:

@Yamagushi What exactly is a "entitlist" by the way?

My son is almost 14. I, on the other hand, am quite a bit older. lol.

Thanks for trolling and have a nice day!

bunnyking

#104

bunnyking said:

It's a big deal. I twittered all the manufacturers and major companies that XBOXone's model sucks and to not support it.

Wamtu

#105

Wamtu said:

@Yamagushi You're taking a nice thing that friends and family have done for each other for years (share their belongings with one another) and trying to make it into something evil just so you can feel more righteous than the rest of us "brats." Of course no one likes what you're saying.

I have no idea why I'm posting this. You're still going to think we're all scum. I guess I just get really ticked by people like you...

atomicjuicer

#107

atomicjuicer said:

The problem with 24 hour DRM is that your games will stop working when they turn the servers off after a few years.

^ NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THIS. ^

tasmans11

#108

tasmans11 said:

I can already see Microsoft having problems with Hackers that hate them for the DRM. Get ready for an online battle Microsoft

SCAR392

#109

SCAR392 said:

It won't be a problem. GameStop will most likely have to pay like 20% of the money they get from a used game.
I'm also pretty sure that Microsoft kniws how many of their users on Xbox Live have internet. In the worst case scenario, you'll have to plug into a dial up moden for a second, or use cellular data(smartphone hotspot), etc.
This won't matter at all, just watch. People just don't understand, then jump to conclusions.

brokenfang

#110

brokenfang said:

Apologies to my fellow NL'ers. I may have been a little rude there.

Just got fed up with the hate.

Tender_Cutlet

#111

Tender_Cutlet said:

The greatest moral issue here is that it is totally unfair that companies like CEX and GAME should make money out of used games at the expense of the Developer/Publisher who are undercut from selling an additional BNIB copy of their [several years of] hard work.

Every sane minded Gamer wants Developers/Publishers to take risks and come up with original ideas but in a world were only very few franchises ever become 'must-buys' and make a fortune at launch [COD, FIFA etc] is it any wonder why these companies take fewer risks and churn out sequel after sequel of tried and tested franchises?

If, like me, you want to see more variety in modern gaming then you should be prepared to support the developers by paying a premium for a new copy of their work and every so often make an effort to avoid the second hand market.

ChiefHomer

#112

ChiefHomer said:

@Yamagushi - if the 'experience' as you put it should only be sold once per disc, i.e. brand new, then are you surely not suggesting that all shops selling used games are operating illegally?

SSingh68

#114

SSingh68 said:

I think that online requirement and borrowing games and trading in games should be without restrictions.

LDXD

#115

LDXD said:

@Yamagushi you and I have rights as a customer also its a fine twisted line that I don't want to bother with anymore if you feel that way so be it support it all you want I rather see the gaming industry crash and burn than to go down the path that Microsoft and EA want to take it
@Knux well said and I completely agree with you 100%

miiandmario

#116

miiandmario said:

Although I mainly use my Xbox, the Wii U will most likely be my next gen console, due to whats been revealed of the xbox one

startropics3

#117

startropics3 said:

I don't understand the relevance of the Xbox considering it lacks game exclusivity from the PC. Plus most Xbox games I assume will look and play beautifully if not better on the PC. Now they want to make a new Xbox with almost all the functionality of a PC, except maybe for motion capturing. Is MS forgetting why they entered the video game console market?

I would love to see MS offer an offline-only console to see how well they sell given this DRM and online requirement debacle. I bet they could do something similar to Nintendo's offline Wii with their Xbox 360.

Macattack

#118

Macattack said:

@LDXD: Brilliant idea. Still, they would have to make it so that any fees that might occur could automatically be billed to your account. 'Cause, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't appreciate having to press "accept" every time someone might pick up one of my extra controllers. Ease of use is very important to me.

swordx

#119

swordx said:

So if the Xbox One requires online, how will us retro gamers survive when the servers go down?

How am I supposed to play old games that are no longer in production without used games?

You people voting FOR the Xbox One seriously need to WAKE UP! Retro games count as used, and I'm pretty sure you can't buy them new anymore.

DarkLloyd

#120

DarkLloyd said:

Looks like some of you guys dont mind being spied on and having your privacy invaded and recorded ;)

also shame of some of you for wanting Used games to go away :P

skjia

#122

skjia said:

@Chuckie-Doll I agree. I stopped buying used games when I realized that GameStop/GAME all pocket the profits and the people who actually worked on it don't get any of that support.
Also that's why you rarely ever see little gaming stores anymore. In my area (L.A.) all you see are GameStops. Everything else has gone out of business so it's not good for the economy either.

crazyj2312

#123

crazyj2312 said:

I blame gamestop for a lot of why they did this. for several years a lot of their used games were only like five dollars less than new games, and that practice had made them a load of money. I've made it a mission of mine to just not shop there anymore because their business plan was ludicrous, and while they've shaped up a bit, they've done more than enough damage to things that they've made the used game community look like cheap wallet grabbing pirates and the market look like it's circulating millions of dollars unpaid to the devs every two seconds

which it is for freaking gamestop but not at any other honest shop that has the decency to mark a used game down by 40 bucks. I just hope the xbox one doesn't gain momentum.

Chunky_Droid

#124

Chunky_Droid said:

A lot of times people will buy a game when it comes out or gets cheaper. Used games is the only way I can go back and pick up some old PS3 games not being made anymore.

Microsoft is essentially ignoring these people unless they plan to have every game on XBLA, then in that case is 500GB truly enough space?

Zup

#126

Zup said:

@Yamagushi That sounds like the weak comeback of someone who's obviously lost an argument. Being as closed minded as you are being prevents you from learning anything. In most arguments, others will at least bring one or two valid points that you may have overlooked. The fact that you have disagreed with all points shows that you are like a small child who believes that he can win an argument by shouting the loudest. Do us all a favour and grow up.

Joe1113

#127

Joe1113 said:

I'm planning to get the Wii U no doubt, and I was contemplating getting the PS4 and/or XBOX1, but now that I know there's fees for used games, and that online connectivity is mandatory, there is NO WAY I'm getting an XBOX1. For one, I'd like to say that not all of us gamers have online connectivity for our gaming devices, and second that Ive never had an Xbox 360 or PS3, and I barely touched my Wii(I however loved the Gamecube and PS2 before them), and that they have lost a potential customer in me. Looks like the only way I'd get an Xbox1 is if drops out of the sky on my front doorstep.

D2Dahaka

#128

D2Dahaka said:

@Yamagushi There's nothing wrong with used games. The majority of games made are poor products, that offer little value for money. It's no mystery why the used market exists. There are alot of people who trade their games for new ones after beating them in 6 hours. The industry shouldn't cry when products don't meet ridiculous sales expectations or that people trade them for new ones. Innovate, adapt to the times, make better products or fail. We are paying the price for their failures and are being told it's our fault.

ToxieDogg

#129

ToxieDogg said:

A couple of interesting links....I know Micheal Pachter isn't very popular on this site but he talks A LOT of sense here....

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Pachter-Destroys-Industry-Lies-About-Used-Games-Killing-Gaming-42679.html

And as for Microsoft's DRM and setting the price for used game activations...aren't they walking a thin line between what's legal and what isn't? Weren't Nintendo massively fined for 'price fixing' a decade ago?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2375967.stm

MAB

#130

MAB said:

lol looks like the Xboner has become the latest traffic generator... My parents raised me into the thought of sharing should be a key quality in our lives but Microsoft just come off as the spoiled brat that nobody likes or could care less about ;)

SteveW

#131

SteveW said:

Imagine if NES was full of DRM, what a nightmare this would be for future collectors. If Nintendo ever does something this stupid I am done.

IAmSpike

#132

IAmSpike said:

It's a sad thing that many of the people I know will still be going to buy this thing. :(

Lobster

#133

Lobster said:

I don't share games around as much as I used to when my friends still lived nearby, but I do still buy used often. This is an expensive hobby for all and it's important to keep costs down. Nobody I know is getting that much richer and frankly a hit to the used and trade in market, not to mention simple lending or renting of games, could be a make or break issue for a console at this time. A decade ago when people had more money maybe it would have been different.

I'm one of those people who never trades in her games or consoles and subsequently I've built up a pretty impressive collection over the course of my life (I'm 25 now) but I know I'm the odd one out on that. Most of my friends trade in.

WingedSnagret

#134

WingedSnagret said:

I seriously hope the Xbox One falls flat on its face, but only because if it does well, Sony, and perhaps maybe even Nintendo, might follow in their same money-grabbing footsteps. Then the industry as a whole could crash, just like the last glory days of Atari...

LDXD

#136

LDXD said:

@WingedFish I doubt Nintendo would follow in their footsteps seeing how they don't really follow any one's footsteps and I think this is one of the many reasons why EA and Nintendo aren't getting along, I could be wrong who knows
Nintendo has already saved the gaming industry a while back and may have to do it again, I sure hope sony don't follow Microsoft with this

LDXD

#137

LDXD said:

This is probably why Nintendo isn't pushing power over game play and lets face it they aren't the ones driving up development cost so high that they cant sustain their selves

QuickSilver88

#138

QuickSilver88 said:

I am pretty sure Microsoft will come up with a license recycling feature.....which if the price is reasonable and the devs get the biggest part of the cut that might be acceptable. Aslo everyone talks about Gamestop but in my mid sized city there are multiple mom and pop used game shops that are making a nice business out of this and the dvd/brd market. So the system needs to be fair and open, maybe even to users so you can deactivate the game youself to lend or give to a friend? To those talkin about the used marktet hurting devs bottom lines.....i think this is simplistic and let me explain why. Major releases when they are good or excellent sell well.....generally in the millions, sometimes 10 mil copies. Bad games thankfully usually don't sell. Occasionally an excellent game doesn't sell well and this is often related to distribution issues or the game being released alongside other better known titles. The used market really doesn't effect much of this. Note to devs...make good games and they sell well. Now two things people have failed to mention here is many times the best games do not show up used right away because people keep them, play them, want them forever. When they do they will be newr full proce so I and others say so what and pay a little more for new. The next issue is at retail games rarely stay on the shelf more than a year. So if you want to try spec ops the line or dues ex or some other game from 2+ years ago you won't find it new because it is out of production. Great games get rereleased at budget sometimes or part of GOTY with DLC or as a series. This is good and provides good value for consumers and allows devs/publishers to continue to proffit. Something else to consider is if used goes away then the only way to get these older games is by buying them digital, if they are available. The problem is the console digital market is not like PC with steam and the pricing is warped and too expensive....without a compeditive used market this will not improve. Also what rights do I the gaming consumer have? WhenI buy a game domI own it? Do i have the right to play it forever? Am I really just leasing it and whenever the DRM says goodnight I am screwed? The important thing here is we as consumer get a say and should not tolerate being strong armed by publishers or manufacturers and can vote with our wallets. Last point and that is I say the used market is largely its own niche. Many people participating in used can not or would not be able to afford gaming without the used option. These people will likely be slow to leave this generation and may drop out of gaming altogether if they don't have access to lower priced options, or migrate to PC or tablets which have cheaper, more open environments. So these issues are not as simple as some of you would indicate. I have been in gaming forever and seen it all. With the poor economy and ridiculous sucess of all 3 systems, this transiton is going to be precarious. I think Nintendo has staked out the most old fashioned and consumer friendly position, Microsoft so far the least....what will $ony do?

skjia

#139

skjia said:

"If you take the disc to a friend's system, you can play it when logged into your account — user accounts are in the cloud, rather than tied to hardware — but the game can only be played when logged into that account."
Do you have a source for that? All I've read is that it's not confirmed whether it's tied to an account or system.

DaveC

#140

DaveC said:

You need to remember THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT USED games! This effects NEW ones too! Even if you never buy used or trade in you will be adversely effected. You will NOT be able to play your new games if you don't first go to the internet to ask permission to play. You can't lend, demo , or keep the games indefinetly. Eventually support for these will expire and your ENTIRE game collection will be rendered null and void, new or used (even applies to any digital format, such as e-shop). potentially thousands of dollars will be lost when they decide to "flip the switch". It will be THEIR decision, not yours as to when "your" games stop working.

This is why "the industry" loves Digital DL and online DRM. This is why they are pushing hard for this in all media industries such as movies too. You are basically renting for full price and own nothing. They keep your money forever, but you don't have the games forever. Raw deal and supremely anti-consumer fascism.

Relias

#141

Relias said:

Agreed with Dave C... The problem I have and have always had with companies that try to destroy the used game market through various ways.. is Ebay.. and Amazon.. basically.. a lot of people resell their games on these sites.. and they should have the right to do this.. as well as letting your friends borrow your games.. or maybe just handing some to a family member.. any company that tries to take those rights away is wrong... I love when people talk about this and then talk about used cars.. you can't reset a game.. it has miles on it too.. (Scratches on the discs.. etc.. ) That can affect the way it plays.. and it's life span in general.. in addition.. I promise you.. if the car companies and dealerships told you to pay full price.. then limited what you could do with the car.. (Can't sell it.. Can't trade it in.. Can't let a friend/family member drive it.. Can't give it to another family member oh and by the way.. the dealership and or company gets to repo it upon your death) Plus at any giving time they can come back and either repo your car.. because they stop supporting it.. or just take it out and total it.. and force you to buy a newer model... there would be a lot of Po'ed people out there.. cause that is almost what is happening to the games all the people on XBOX One will be buying.. and quite possibly the PS4..

Funny_Moblin

#142

Funny_Moblin said:

@DaveC Thanks you for this information. Very well said. I was on the fence of deciding to buy 3DS games digitally for convenience, but thanks to you, I am deciding to buy physical form 3DS games. I think you saved me there, bud.

BenAV

#143

BenAV said:

I haven't had a working Internet connection in over a month now (stupid phone companies), so if my console had to connect it'd be a big issue.

jayblue

#144

jayblue said:

games get more exspensive is a crock of crap so prices are put up,without preowned games the consoles will not be bought by me,downloads are worth nothing trade that in.

Dogpigfish

#145

Dogpigfish said:

I understand the importance of sending money back to developers and not having stores fundamentally sell used copies, but I would like to get my hands on favorites which in most cases shows up at a used game shop. I don't want to buy the same copy of a game years later with a few minor tweaks. Maybe eshop concept will fix all this. What's good business in the short term isn't very good customer service in the long term.

ueI

#146

ueI said:

@Funny_Moblin DaveC's post wasn't addressing the 3DS. You can keep digital games on your 3DS forever once you've downloaded them because they don't require an online connection to play.

Funny_Moblin

#147

Funny_Moblin said:

@uel Oh alright thanks. But I thought I heard something about Nintendo not giving your games back if you 3DS breaks...I think I'll wait until Nintendo ties its games to the account (and hoping they make accounts for 3DS)

ueI

#148

ueI said:

I don't know what happens if your 3DS breaks. And yeah, I don't like digital buying either. It just has nothing to do with servers going offline.

deitypower

#149

deitypower said:

as much as i want to have wii u, ea have some great games and they're not in wii u much. ea has partnered with xbox. i'm really torned apart by which console i will buy this holiday.

Marioman64

#150

Marioman64 said:

for the online mandatory thing, I buy a console to play game. If I have to pay for something completely unrelated to play my game then the console better have built in internet or pay for my internet provider for me

DaveC

#151

DaveC said:

@ueI "DaveC's post wasn't addressing the 3DS. You can keep digital games on your 3DS forever once you've downloaded them because they don't require an online connection to play."

You will not be able to MOVE any 3DS digital games without the internet though. If your unit breaks or is lost, oops! You can't transfer from a broken unit because you can't connect with it! When Nintendo no longer supports the games, oops! If your unit is damaged/worn and you just want a new one you need the internet to transfer the games. You can do this as long as Nintendo supports the games on their servers (and are still in business).

In the future when the 3DS is no longer supported and you try to get a replacement all your digital content is lost. If you want to roll the bones and go digital go ahead, but remember you are leaving your entire collection of games to the whims of a third party! No thanks, for me physical all of the way, even if slightly less convenient, that way I truly own them. Restrictive DRM is bad any way you look at it, because it is well, RESTRICTIVE!

With a cart, you just pop it into the replacement unit without having to ask permission, done.

JaxonH

#152

JaxonH said:

@Yamagushi
By that logic selling used books or silverware is bad for the industry. It's not like you get a book with half the pages torn out or a fork with only 2 tongs, right? If you did, you'd probably return it! Used merch is used merch, and in 99% of cases the merch gives the buyer the exact same full functionality of the product as in brand new condition. That's the nature of the beast, and the nature of buying used goods. If I buy a football, I get the enjoyment of playing with it as long as I own it. If I decide I no longer want to own it and continue that enjoyment, I have the right to sell it. The ONE argument that could be made against me is that games are, for the most part, designed to provide temporary enjoyment for "x amount of time", usually until you beat the game, unlike many other types of products which provide long-term enjoyment. With that in mind, developers should create features in their games to provide long-term enjoyment, one such example being the multiplayer experience.

NotEnoughGolds

#153

NotEnoughGolds said:

It's a simple fact that used games are beneficial to everyone, including publishers and console manufacturers. Any economist would agree, but apparently Microsoft didn't hire one of those.

People who buy new games, then sell them, are getting money to buy more new games. Used games buyers won't suddenly increase their budget to buy the same amount of games new instead of used, they'll simply buy fewer games.
The new games buyer who can't sell his games, likewise, will not increase his budget by the amount for which his games would have sold - he will simply stop buying.

FJOJR

#154

FJOJR said:

I wonder what retailers like Gamestop think about this. Or rental services like Gamefly.

MarioFan1985

#155

MarioFan1985 said:

Well, I like on how gamers right now are saying negative stuff about this new X-Box (as I am anti-XBox because it's made by an evil corporation). But upon release it's going to be the talk of the town because it's "new". Seriously, the reason a lot of people (Americans in particular) because X-Box is "American" and not Japanese like Nintendo's consoles and the Playstations, or because you can play Online in tournaments. Of course, as being a lifetime gamer, I find Online play problematic, and with good reason. You don't know who you're playing online with, and that person may be using an emulator (which makes the gamer invincible in online play) or use another computer program that can mess up your game console, or steal your personal information.

As for buying used games, it is like a double-edged sword. Yes, they're cheaper, but you really don't know if that game is going to work or not. That happened to me when I bought Tekken Tag Tournament 2 for both the Wii U and the PS3, both discs didn't work and I had to download it from the PS Store. Plus, my Wii U can play Wii games, but my PS3 can't play PS2 games.

Hopefully, this new X-Box will fail. Sorry X-Box fans.

XCWarrior

#156

XCWarrior said:

For anyone that feels bad that the devs are not seeing money form used sales, then buy new! If you avoid Gamestop - not hard - Best Buy, Target, Walmart do sales on games all the time. I have yet to pay full price for a single Wii U or 3DS game. But I've bought all of them, and all my Wii games (almost 70) NEW. DS is 80% bought new. I don't pay full price 90% of the time, I wait for a sale, but I do want the devs to see money.

What Xbox One is doing is wrong. I like being able to borrow from a friends, and vise versa. And if I do want to pick up an older game, I don't want to have to pay both the store I bought it from and the manufactorer.

Anyone defending Microsoft is against the consumer. They already make huge profits per game. So don't feel bad for them. especially when they make bad games that aren't worth full price.

HawkeyeWii

#157

HawkeyeWii said:

Seriously I would rather go buy an Atari 2600 than an Xbox One. At least I can play used games on it.

bonesy91

#158

bonesy91 said:

Seriously you would have to be the biggest moran on the planet to even consider buying an xbox1

WaxxyOne

#159

WaxxyOne said:

Will never understand the (currently) 4% of people who voted for "I think the publisher should get a cut." Be honest, are you industry plants or work directly for a publisher? The publisher does not deserve a cut on second-hand sales any more than a company deserves a cut when you transfer physical goods for money to another person. There is absolutely zero reason for games to be treated differently.

I firmly believe this decision, if true, will seriously hurt the Xbox One's chances, if not remove it as a contender entirely.

thepitt

#160

thepitt said:

"So, what do we know so far?"
"pre-reveal rumours"

That's enough said about the starting quotes from this article.

As per consoles or any device that requires an Internet connection some companies might want to remember not all of the entire gaming population nor world population has access to the Internet.

P-Gamer-C

#161

P-Gamer-C said:

I understand the case of killing used games because gamstop is making a fortune while devs dont see a penny and i know poor gamers want used games but developers are dying and they need money im a real gamer and being selfish is hurting the devs thus hurting the industry so i tell devs do as you will and if your that selfish you only game if a bargin bin is nearby to bad for you

Gamer83

#162

Gamer83 said:

This is a huge deal and for the good of the industry I hope Nintendo pulls something off to get the Wii U selling and that is smashes the competition at retail. I'm not even that interested in Wii U, but I hate what M$, $ony and EA have conspired to do. And the issue with Xbox One goes even deeper than used games. That f'ing Kinect setup turns the damn thing into a voyeur box for the sick dbag execs like Phil Spencer to watch your every move.

Gamer83

#163

Gamer83 said:

@P-Gamer-C

You're eating up the bs these clowns are feeding you. You know where the extra $$$ from killing off Gamestop would go? Right into the pocket of some whorish higher up at EA, that's where. The developers won't ever see a penny of this extra revenue.

Gamer83

#164

Gamer83 said:

@WaxxyOne

Unfortunately due to moronic North American consumers, Xbox One will never be completely out of the picture. Hell I still think there's a chance it could trounce the competition on name alone because dumba$$es in this country don't research products before buying them.

That out of the way, I couldn't possibly agree more with the other stuff you posted and it is simply stunning to me that anybody who doesn't work for one of these publishers could be backing them.

Gamer83

#166

Gamer83 said:

@P-Gamer-C

Keep believing the sob stories these people put out and supporting the bs policies of these big wig execs. You'll find out the truth, just like everyother person who doesn't want to see what's really going on, when this industry has another crash. It will and needs to happen for things to get fixed.

GamerJunkie

#167

GamerJunkie said:

The Wii U needed to be connected to the internet on Day 1 to get the update to be able to even use it... So what is the big deal?

P-Gamer-C

#168

P-Gamer-C said:

@Gamer83 Wow so you want the game industry to crash you said it all just because devs want there money that is getting stolen by thieves hackers pirates and terrorists like you exposed!

dadajo

#170

dadajo said:

This is my deal with the xboxone and used games. I'm 16 and I am the only one in my family who cares about videogames. This means I have to save up and buy all my games. There is the new option where you can pay more for a copy of a game more shiny, and then there is the used option which may have a few scratches but is loads cheaper. I of course wanting as much games as possible end up choosing the used option. I know that I am not directly supporting the developers this way (which I am sad I can't, but I actually buy a majority of my games from this local business so I don't feel totally horrible), but I still at least getting a legal copy of a game. (Unlike my friends. I can not stand pirating and will not support it myself though I do understand some people's arguements for it) Then a console comes along and ruins this used game market. We still don't know how much this fee for the XB1 will be so it may not be fair to judge the console completley yet, but it is more of the concept they are doing it. I know there are people in the same or worse postion as me and doing this is really just a dick move trying to grab a few more bucks. Defintly reminds me of a worse version of the online passes. Wiiu for me.

dadajo

#171

dadajo said:

@GamerJunkie Yeah, but the update was not required, and it is not needed everyday. My family's wifi singal (dang it forgot to remind my mom to call about fixing that) is not strong and does not reach our living room. (I update the wiiu by plugging it in near the router and use the gamepad to navigate to the update menu. I don't need a tv lol.) With the wiiu also it was just where you had to move it to your friends house if you did not have wifi for that one update. For the XB1 if you don't have wifi you are screwed, though I don't see this being a huge problem in America and Europe where most people who are buying this will have wifi I think. It is stupid though you would need to be online though once a day for it to function. On most pcs even you can not ever be connected to wifi and it will run fine (not much to do on it but still, and while we are on the subject on stupid stuff, why couldn't the wiiu big update near release already been on the console. Was it that hard or am I missing something?lol)

Tender_Cutlet

#172

Tender_Cutlet said:

Lots of great points on the used game market here.

1. I think we're unanimously agreed it has a place and needs to exist - albeit for the benefit of the consumer who has a right to do as they please with their used physical property [used games] and beneficial exposure of "last season" software that at £40 and limited print runs might well fail to reach a decent sized audience.
2. There is no issue with the retail of 2nd hand [cart or CD] copies of older gen games - the retro market needs ebay and the few surviving retro games stores to stay alive and to reach new audiences in their original, glorious formats. [I for one would never settle for a downloadable Rom over a lovely slab of grey plastic!]

3. However something has to give, and parasite companies like CEX, GAME, Gamespot etc should not be so readily able to profit at the expense of the Devs / Publishers undercutting prices of new games with 2nd hand copies. [*I recently bought a copy of Tomb Raider on PS3 on launch day [5th March 2013] for £40 and within 10 days the price had nearly halved for copies in CEX. This game is not even three months old and you can now buy it in these stores for a tenner - and NO [for the record] it is not that bad a game!]

I'd propose a solution to the DRM struggle to be that all newly released games should have a DRM code that expires exactly a year from their official, regional release date registered in the Cloud. This would get around the harmful resale of [unsealed] copies of new software whilst the title is still a latest release and in it's original print run. After the year and the code expires, the game is free to be traded in the used market for the lower fees we expect.

This way consumers can pick up cheap copies of older software no problem [exactly as you might now] and the Devs do not miss out to such an extent on their due cut from their hard work - whilst the publishers make their money back on their initial print run in which they've invested. If you cannot wait to play and want to purchase the latest releases, then it should only be fair that you pay a premium.

andreoni79

#173

andreoni79 said:

I don't need a internet connection because 1) I don't like online gaming 2) my city offers me a free limited connection which is enough for checking email, posting in NintendoLife and many other useful little things.
No way I'm gonna update my 360...

Davidiam007

#174

Davidiam007 said:

@Yamagushi I think it's our rights to be able to sell our games. To be honest I think the industry would not have last if people weren't renting games or buying used copies. It promoted people to want to buy consoles and more games. Not to mention the store purchases the game from the publishers, we purchase the games from the store. So it's not about them losing money, its about potential profit. I think if you were taking buying and selling used games you would see a collapse in the market. People sell their games to purchase new games. This does not hurt them at all cause the store already purchased it from developers. Can you imagine how bad the game industry would fall if you were stuck with every game you purchased.

MegaWattsAdmin

#175

MegaWatts said:

I'd be interested to know how much of a chunk of sales that pre-owned games take away from the market. Given that most games get the majority of their sales during their first week, it makes me doubt that pre-owned sales are really having that big an impact.

Regardless, the issue here is one of quality. If publishers want people to rush out and buy their games, then they need to start making better games. Some games don't sell because there's just absolutely nothing enticing about them, or they're shoddy and bugged. When creativity has seemingly reached an all-time low — and not because of technology, but because of developers constantly following the same template over and over again — it's no wonder why a) they're not selling as many games and b) why people don't take a risk and go pre-owned.

dumedum

#176

dumedum said:

I didn't need any of these news about the Xbox1 to know that the Wii U is superior to the Xbox1 and PS4, for one simple reason - Nintendo games.

DeltaPeng

#177

DeltaPeng said:

@Yamagushi while I'm glad you are wanting what's best for developers- which is good, as consumers we don't tend to consider the work involved behind a game- a point to be made (concerning lending games one owns and whether that is piracy): it should be considered that up to this point games are created with the expectation in mind that they will be borrowed and shared. Sure, in the ideal world developers would see more profit for their work, and middle sales stores may not claim the profit instead, but this is the way the gaming hobby has tended, and as many people stated, the ability to lend and sell used games is currently common and expected among games and similar media such as movies, board games, etc.

Maybe this should change to favor the developers more, and by changing perhaps the industry will be more profitable and more games will be created. That would be the ideal case. As is, though, since games like other entertainment media has not had this restriction, it's a little unfair to claim that borrowing/lending games is unfair or not morally right. Perhaps in future games this can and should be changed, but as is this is and has not been the case nor the expected standard. As stated before, I believe that games were intended to be shared amongst family and friends and that developer's had this in mind of at least accounted for it before launching the product for sale. Consider multiplayer games, did developers expect that in a game with 4 player co-op, that the owner will single out 3 of their friends to give out those multiplayer spot rights to the copy to enjoy the experience with you? No, rather, it is extra functionality that gives extra value to the game, so that the owner can enjoy the experience with lots of other people (and buy more of their game :p).

Who knows? Perhaps developers will band together and change this 'right', but as things stand there are no laws or rules concerning lending a game to a friend (bar obvious things like piracy). I for one think the main issue of removing used games is price-setting, if only one store controls all the goods then we may have older games remaining at $50 from creation till....forever. This would affect sales due to supply and demand, which would be the company's decision, but overall for us gamers that would mean that we'd typically get to play less quality games and that gaming as a hobby becomes less feasible for the masses. Chances are there will still be a lot of well-priced games, but some of the more quality works (like Nintendo's own or others) would be less accessible on the condition that price points if prices get set and do not change.

If we are wanting to improve the situation for devs, we can talk about solutions in how this could be done - rental stores, perhaps online renting or online accounts that give you access to a library of games, etc. My personal opinion is lending is fine as games are essentially the same as other entertainment media, and if a company really wanted to avoid sharing they could put their game up for digital download only. In this sense nintendo WiiU wins out because it combines both physical and digital download options, rather than forcing one method (if indeed ps4 and xbox one end up doing this).

Gamer83

#178

Gamer83 said:

@P-Gamer-C

I've never hacked a gaming device or pirated games, hell I don't even buy used games but I'm not going to go against something that is hardly bad for the industry. You need to stop buying the bs that gets fed to you by corporate slime. If you think money gained from killing the used game market is going anywhere but to the publisher, not the people who actually made the game, well sorry but you are absolutely clueless.

LDXD

#179

LDXD said:

@GamerJunkie being connected to the internet to install a mandatory update is one thing being always connected to the internet to make sure you aren't even playing your brother's game who lives in the next room is another its wrong on so many levels
Nintendo did that to push more systems out before the holidays before the system was ready Microsoft is doing this for greed big difference

LDXD

#180

LDXD said:

@P-Gamer-C if anything this way of thinking promotes piracy and this wont stop it anyways there will always be ways around it, you should know this already pc gamer
This does nothing but hurt the people who pay good money to play their games not only that but now they are telling me I don't have the right to lend my friend the game to see if he/she is willing to also spend the money to buy it, with this I don't have that right anymore without extra fees

Araknie

#181

Araknie said:

I'm never gonna buy the Xbox One.

I don't care of the other problems.
The major problem for me is having the Kinect always on, i have to pay more in electricity bill because you don't have a middle button on your controller?
Suuuuuuure.

mookysam

#182

mookysam said:

@MegaWatts

I was wondering that. My guess is it wouldn't make that much difference. People who buy used wouldn't necessarily automatically buy new. What's interesting is that for certain titles many publishers and developers have complained when a bulk of their sales were achieved when a product reached that £17.99 sweet spot - and these were new copies!


I'm beginning to think that used games are a convenient scapegoat for everything wrong with the industry. Did used games cause ballooning budgets or unrealistic sales expectations and could either of these things be mitigated by restricting access to them? They certainly didn't cause the death of THQ or a myriad of others who made poor financial and creative decisions, or developers who were closed down by publishers who chewed them up and then spat them back out.

BulbasaurusRex

#184

BulbasaurusRex said:

Another problem with DRM: It won't allow you to rent games like you can from Redbox, Gamefly, or a library (although technically not a "rental" in the latter case).

OpDad

#185

OpDad said:

Licensing is going to have to happen. What other way do we ensure that developers get the profits they deserve? Buying a car then selling it is completely different because with a used car you pay the difference for a product that has clear use. A car after 50k miles is different from a car that is new. A used game is no different from a new game so why ever buy a new game? Microsoft also has to give some though if they're going to require licensing and bring prices down if they require everyone to basically buy new. $35 for regular titles and $45 for the more popular ones then slowly bring the prices down over time. If they don't bring prices down for new games then they're really asking to get beat.

HorseLoverFat

#186

HorseLoverFat said:

One player monopoly is going to suck hard if Hasbro introduces this too. Gather round kids for a family night of monopoly and don't forget to bring your piggy bank. Hasbro's got to get paid. It's only fair

mikeyman64

#187

mikeyman64 said:

It's been predicted for a while. What do you do when graphics aren't the only area you can improve? Only Nintendo seems to know, because they have always been the road of innovation. They brought the gaming industry back to life with the NES in the states, let's see if they can keep it alive with the Wii U.

ramstrong

#188

ramstrong said:

@theblackdragon There are legal precedents with regards to lending, borrowing, trading and reselling your physical personal property, up to and including a game cartridge or disc.

Not to burst your bubble here, and I see the conversation has petered to the end, but I'm curious, have any of you who said this is legal/illegal has consulted any lawyers and/or legal case somewhere? If so, please give reference.

Laws do change. Furthermore, it differs from country to country. The least you can do is give background info as to which country you're from. It would be a pity if thread wars erupted just because misunderstanding of laws of different countries.

And AFAIK, there is law, at least on US side, where if you give legal advice without a license, that's illegal. That's why when in doubt, I always say, "I'm not a lawyer" (and the proceeding advise should not be construed as legal advice. You are encouraged to seek a lawyer and discuss the matter with said professional.)

Furthermore, if we're talking about Microsoft, that's different. They have not been selling physical product for a long time. Everything, AFAIK, is license, not physical product. Internet connectivity requirements? That's been like that on PC side for years. Reading their EULA is very illuminating. :)

I will not be telling gigantic corporations how to do their business. I will, however, vote with my wallet. So far, Sony is on the black list. Looks like I need to put Xbox on there, too.

HorseLoverFat

#189

HorseLoverFat said:

When I was a kid my older brother owned the Nes console. We never had a super Nes but my next door neighbor did. Friends of mine owned Sega consoles. Each of these machines I played many hours with. Because of these "free" experiences as a kid I grew to love computer gaming as a hobby. As an adult with my own disposable income I am able to indulge in this hobby. If I had to pay at any stage as a kid (besides birthday presents) to play these experiences which were "lent" to me I wouldnt have grow up to spend thousands of dollars on games and console like I have.

theblackdragonAdmin

#190

theblackdragon said:

@ramstrong: lending, borrowing, reselling, etc. all has to do with the Doctrine of First Sale. I remembered it came up in that discussion we all had on the forums a while back regarding the court case with the textbooks being resold and whatnot that could possibly have set a negative legal precedent for buying and selling used games (thankfully the courts ruled in the favor of the reseller, at least in one of the cases being heard, haha — not sure if the other has been decided or not yet!). there's a reason i said 'legal precedents' rather than a hard 'laws'. anyone can see a court case go down and point it out to someone else, and I'm not attempting to put myself forth as a lawyer in any way, shape, or form, therefore any assumptions made about my qualifications (or lack thereof) would be entirely on the part of the person reading my comments — whatever you choose to do is fine, but i'm happy with the way I represented myself during the discussion yesterday.

furthermore, the both of us (myself and Yamagushi) identify in our profiles as being in the United States (as were most of the users chiming in along the way), so country of origin for our discussion is not an issue IMO.

finally, the user in question had been trawling that same 'lending a game equals piracy' line all day yesterday (not just here, but on the forums across multiple threads), which is why i jumped in to say the things I did regarding physical personal property and have it out with that user in this thread. obviously Microsoft is not preventing people from doing so outright, they're just trying to profit off of consumers choosing to share game discs with one another, and it's their right to make their bed however they please. most of my arguments in this thread versus that user specifically have been toward the 'lending = piracy' argument, not so much what Microsoft is doing with the Xbone.

ramstrong

#192

ramstrong said:

@theblackdragon finally, the user in question had been trawling that same 'lending a game equals piracy' line all day yesterday (not just here, but on the forums across multiple threads),

I keep forgetting that some people have all the time in the world to chat on-line. :( Thank you for the prompt response TBD! Never underestimate people's intelligence, willfulness, and tenacity to do something boneheaded stupid. ;)

@GamerJunkie
Is that a 5 GB download? Yikes. That's my monthly Internet allowance. Can I resume interrupted download? Is there an alternative method (via DVD mailing)? Because if not, I will remove WiiU from the list of Christmas wishes!

Objection

#194

Objection said:

RE: Yama debate thing: Sure, if everyone had the money to buy everything full-price, they would. But people don't and what's more, even if they did, they wouldn't because there's a finite amount of space and time. The markets are built around accepting this. Hence, sales and renting and borrowing and secondary markets (eBay is my s---!) abound and are not a bad thing per se.

RE: Xbox One. Atrocity. One bad idea after another. I don't think I need to go into why each one is awful (and I'm not just hating here, I legitimately shudder for each if they were to become the norm) but the worst is how games have been reduced to...installs and multiple purchases for the same physical thing. Sickeningly stupid and greedy. In attempts to make more money, Microsoft will likely find themselves in a distant third, even to the slow-selling Wii-U. Shame, they did quite well this generation (I recognize this even though I'm more of a PS3 gamer) and now I can honestly see this as being their Dreamcast Swansong.

P-Gamer-C

#195

P-Gamer-C said:

@LDXD There's nothing we can do there will always be ways around it lets just give up let the pirates screw the actual devs who make the games we claim we love

ungibbed

#196

ungibbed said:

@Joshers744 used games I buy often are not found at retailers. Money isn't an issue for me so the uppity takes on the "ur poor lulz" that many people like to use when I'm bargain hunting for games that are collectible or otherwise. Next to my Wii U on a lower shelf sits my N64 setup. Where few games that are collectible are reasonably priced.

ungibbed

#197

ungibbed said:

@ramstrong the few hour system update really annoyed me. Despite having a 50MB Internet connection with a 250GB cap. The download speeds from Nintendo to the Wii U system is awful regardless.

The other problem is when buying full retail titles from the eShop. No size given on titles such as the game I bought due to bad weather but favorable review scores. Lego City Undercover after finishing downloading by the following day came to a 19GB! Now when updating my Mac, some updates or full game titles have downloaded and installed ready to go in only hours. Even games I bought digital versions of for my PS Vita still downloaded and installed much faster.

Nintendo has either a dodgy network issue on the Wii U regardless over Wireless N or using the USB network adapter from the old Wii.

It's either the system or the datacenter that Nintendo is using is clogged not being able to keep with demand. It's frustrating being an early adopter.

dadajo

#198

dadajo said:

@GamerJunkie
My personal experience was updating it the next day. It was not mandatory for me, but maybe my wifi was not working or something. Either way there should of never been a update to begin with, but in the end it made the system better so oh well. (Also on a funny note my sucky wifi actually downloaded the update in 40 min about. Apparently it has really good download speed but sucky range go figure lol. Not saying that the actual update was like that for everybody else, just to be clear, I just thought it was funny that the wifi I don't trust at all worked well for those 40 min. and only those 40 min.)

TwoSmoove

#199

TwoSmoove said:

I only buy used games for out of print games or really hard gems that I missed out on (had a very hard time finding Rhythm Thief for months after it came out). This usually opens me up to newer games in the series, which I buy new because I liked the previous version (Borderlands, Zero Escape series, Tales of series, etc.). The only time I would consider selling a game is if I seriously disliked it, which is rare. I don't mind when people sell games, but wished it was handled better for the developers.

For the comments regarding lending vs. piracy, should people not play multiplayer games locally because their friends didn't pay? By that logic, it sounds like yard sales should be more frowned upon.

LordGeovanni

#200

LordGeovanni said:

I haven't read all the comments, however I wanted to make sure that something was said. I buy Used Games all the time. Especially games that were just released (when available, I like to keep the extra $15 or so). But the other side of it is the fact that people keep referencing piracy as a major problem that this is built against... Wouldn't this actually lead to even more piracy?
I buy Used Games. As simple as that. I bought Pokemon Mystery Dungeon (3DS) for $29.99 instead of $34.99. Why? Because I could. I wanted the game before the end of the month so I could get the free download content. If it wasn't for that time limit, I would have waited even longer. Final Fantasy Theatrythem I waited until it was below 50%. It was only at Black Friday sales that I found it that cheap. I actually told myself that I am not buying Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D until it is below $25.
But what about the people who don't want to wait? The ones who don't want to wait until 2+ years go by before the price drops below 50%? They end up going towards pirating the game. If there is no Used Game market, the amount of people who will not want to pay the (full) price will go up even further. What would be easier for people to do? Find the extra $10 from their pay? Or find a way to make that $40 game not hit your wallet at all? Now I would have that $40 in my pocket and another game around the corner instead of the right way...
And the idea of an "activation code" from the main company really has me worried as well. Hooray for $40 Used Games that would otherwise be in the $5 bin. It will eventually just be cheaper to wait and grab the New game at the price drop. And what about after the (new version of the) game is sold out? Will we find Earthbound equivalents with a $300 activation fee? Will it be $400? Microsoft will be able to raise it as they want.

NOTE: I do NOT encourage/like/use/etcetera pirated games and do not encourage others to pirate either. I just say that many people pirated Earthbound when the physical copies were $200. My case is as such.

Magnox

#202

Magnox said:

Guys, forget about the xbox one having the worst preowned policy in the history of gaming, amazon have just started taking preorders for Xbox-one and to be fair at this low price, I don't see how any of us can not throw our money at microsoft. Grab it quick before the pre-orders sell out at this price!! Heres a direct link to save you time:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Microsoft-Xbox-One-Console/dp/B00BE4OUBG/ref=sr_tr_sr_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369908283&sr=8-1&keywords=xbox+one

b23cdq

#203

b23cdq said:

@Yamagushi "You didn't pay the developer for Dead Space 1. Just because you bought the sequel it doesn't erase the original lose"
That just comes across as incredibly greedy. If he hadn't bought the game used, he wouldn't have bought Dead Space 2. So they gained a sale. And he wouldn't have bought Dead Space 1 new anyway, so there is no loss.

You seem to care only about short-term profits, which in the long term will hurt.

b23cdq

#206

b23cdq said:

@Magnox Low price? That's almost thrice the price of a WiiU. I'd rather buy a new U, a new 3ds xl, and a Vita for that price.

TheFozboz

#207

TheFozboz said:

I have read through most of this discussion and am horrified at some of the borderline brainwashed statements for pro-drm/anti-share. I understand the point of view "the developers deserve every dollar from their work". At the same time, do you pay royalties on the refrigerator design that you are selling? remember you only payed to use the finished cooling product, there was a lot of research and work put into the final design, so lets give those engineers some credit huh. Or even better we all like music right? I have a few guitar tab books, I suppose you should pay the artist of these books if I decide to lend or even........gulp sell it to someone.
Some of you have to remember that it is not the 'poor' developers who are trying to change the used game paradigm, it is large money centric corporations who are the shakers of this movement and I am pretty sure it is not so that the developers get their "fair share".
sorry for the mini-rant but jeeze.....

Magnox

#210

Magnox said:

@LDXD Yeah think its a highly priced placeholder tbh, but if true is absolutely the final nail in the coffin for Micro$oft :D Long live the wii u!

P-Gamer-C

#211

P-Gamer-C said:

@LDXD U hate developers so much do you know how many have went belly up already thq just drowned gamestop is a damn terrorist headquarters devs need all the money they can get devs are getting gangbanged by freeloaders like you and pirates yet we still expect them to make new ip's and take risks please

cheetahman91

#212

cheetahman91 said:

The online thing is what really bothers me. Doesn't M$ realize that not everybody in the US has good internet? The "once a day" connection is a load of BS too. What if my internet were to go out for a few days? Looks like I'm SOL. And then there's the servers. Those things aren't going to last forever. It would be like you're renting the console because you can only play games as long as you can connect online.

Unless M$ makes some major changes before launch, I hope this abomination flops harder than the Virtual Boy. Aw who am I kidding, that'd never happen. :(

LDXD

#213

LDXD said:

@P-Gamer-C I didn't say I hate developers and I'm far from being a freeloader
Drm is a terrible thing you loose all rights to you owning anything it's more like you're renting the xbox1 and its games than owning it what about that don't you understand knuckle head
Pirates aren't going to suddenly start paying even more for the games now they will just find ways around it thus hurts people like me who pay good money to buy the games I like and I don't want to worry about my internet going out or one day the servers do look at what EA did with sim city what a joke

S7eventhHeaven

#214

S7eventhHeaven said:

some retailers take full advantage of joe public and abuse the second hand system and i think both developers, publishers and sony, microsoft and nintendo should create some kind of system that is fair. games lose value too quickly.

P-Gamer-C

#215

P-Gamer-C said:

@LDXD You didnt have to say it your stance on this issue is whats killing developers and allowing pirates and gamestop to canalbalise off there corpses pc went through this did it kill gaming no pc is bigger than ever lets move on so many hard heads y must i teach you all

LDXD

#216

LDXD said:

@P-Gamer-C its a lot more complex than you think it is
Btw video joe has been around since Atari and hasn't killed the gaming industry it has a lot more to do with games costing a bazillion dollars now and only being 6 hrs long no replay value on more like movies than a video game but we all want that we rather watch our games than play them and developers want to see how close than can be to the next Michael bay than anything else thq went under because of poor business decisions not pirates
Catch my drift?

P-Gamer-C

#217

P-Gamer-C said:

Witcher2 two pirated over 5 million times plus the whole used game thing i have friends and family that work in the gaming industry devs were up softs donkey because they feel its harder to make money [because of your terrorist friends] pc went through it now consoles will saton will not destroy the world if you only u gamed on pc and knew about this industry you would know there is nothing to fear

EpicGamer

#218

EpicGamer said:

Why were people arguing about borrowing or buying used games is illegal? What the heck was wrong with "Yamagushi"? Did he seriously think that was illegal (or should be illegal)? That doesn't make any sense what-so-ever. With that kind of logic it's like saying "Oh this book was amazing, I really want my friend to read it, oh wait, I have to make her pay the full price of the book first." Didn't make any sense, right? Sooo why are books any different than games? Oh wait...books are not as important, whoops, silly me. Also with the economy that were in (if you live in America) we can't just go out and buy ever $60 dollar game. Why do you think people actually RENT games before they buy them? So does that mean Gamestop, Gamefly, those Redboxes are all doing something illegal? Well, better cancel my membership with Gamefly then (not really, you think I was serious? lol what?). Thank you so much Yamagushi for showing the world your stupidity, now please go share it somewhere else, thank you.

MEGAMAN_D

#219

MEGAMAN_D said:

Its funny how 360 fanboys were dissin the wii u, and now their beloved microsoft may have just created one of the worst consoles ever.

Xbox one is a joke, we all know it, and unless microsoft throw out some groundbreaking poop at E3 then they can shove it.

Wii U is a great console, it just needs some games for gods sake !

Gamer83

#220

Gamer83 said:

@P-Gamer-C
You just don't get it. The developers, the men and women who put the actual work into the game won't see a dime even if used games sales are killed off completely. That extra money will go right into the pocket of some super douche exec at EA, Activision, M$, $ony or any other big publisher. These companies aren't being white knights for the people who make the games. The bottomline is that used games have not and would not ever hurt the industry. There are far bigger issues than used games.

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