News Article

Renegade Kid Worried About 3DS Piracy

Posted by Andy Green

Hacking could cause developer to stop supporting the system

It has recently been reported that a couple of hackers have broken into the 3DS, allowing them to run custom code on the device. They claim their motives are good — getting around the 3DS region lock for example — however games developers, as you can imagine, are less than pleased with the news.

In a recent blog post Jools Watsham, co-founder of Renegade Kid, the developer behind the hit 3DS eShop title Mutant Mudds, claimed that illegally delving into the guts of the 3DS opens up the door to piracy — something that could damage the industry and support for Nintendo's handheld.

If piracy gets bad on the 3DS, we will have no choice but to stop supporting the platform with new games.

Watsham rubbished the claims that people try hacked games before they buy them and pointed to the damage that was done to DS game sales:

Piracy on the Nintendo DS crippled the DS retail market, especially in Europe. We’ll never know how/if Dementium II landed in as many hands as the first game, Dementium: The Ward, due to the rampant piracy at the time. Dementium: The Ward sold more than 100,000 copies worldwide, which is a great success for an original mature-rated title on the DS. Recorded sales of Dementium II are less than half that. We’ll never truly know why that was so, but many seem to believe that piracy had a lot to do with it.

Renegade Kid is clearly worried about the impact piracy can have on the sales of games, but Watsham feels Nintendo is in a good position to combat it:

The good news is that Nintendo has the ability to put up a good fight against pirates due to 3DS system updates and such. Let’s hope this is enough to stop piracy. Time will tell.

What are your thoughts on this issue? Do you see hacking as a good or a bad thing? Fire-off in the comments section below.

[via joolswatsham.blogspot.co.uk, tinycartridge.com]

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User Comments (156)

RupeeClock

#4

RupeeClock said:

It does seem a bit paranoid, but obviously they're watching out for their own backs.

What are the implications of the hack? Will a few people get to run some unsigned code like emulators and homebrew games, and maybe actually get to import games?
Or will it actually lead to rampant piracy on the system, where retail titles and digital downloads are indiscriminate in their theft?

I've been following the hackers and their intentions are to only allow users to run homebrew, and not pirate stuff. They are apparently taking measures to try and prevent piracy, but there is no guarantee that some sort of flashcart manufacturer in Hong Kong will not try and reverse engineer the exploit.

Well, time will tell. I have faith though that the worth of the 3DS software library and consumer's faith in the brand, in Nintendo handhelds in particular, will help the 3DS overcome any potential piracy issues.
Nintendo and the 3DS itself at least. Smaller developers like Renegade Kid may have cause for concern after all when they lack the resources for heavier marketing or appeal to a niche market. Such a market that may be smart enough to pirate.

Oh dear.

Retro_on_theGo

#5

Retro_on_theGo said:

Ugh, don't ruin the fun for everyone else hackers. I really hope Renegade Kid doesn't stop supporting the system. I want ATV Wild Ride dang it!

Kagamine

#6

Kagamine said:

Most Hackers that create Homebrew applications and really don't want to allow people to play pirated games.. They are disigned to not allow that. Not all hackers are interested in piracy.

SkywardLink98

#8

SkywardLink98 said:

I can't blame 'em. If I thought people were playing my games without buying them I'd pull all my games from the store.

ToxorAxiom

#10

ToxorAxiom said:

Lol, principled hackers. Right. Not a single one of them is ignorant of the fact that piracy always follows after their "work", which in turn leads to more illegal downloads and more piracy justification. Just like with the Wii. My best friend used to say: "I'll download it to try it, and if I like it I'll buy it." A Xenoblade here, a World of Goo there... hours of gameplay later and it's, "I'm broke and can't afford it. Oh, well, they're rich enough. They won't miss my money." But guess who goes out of business. And it all starts with these well-meaning hackers, our light-bearing and benificent revolutionaries. "Every revolution bears the seeds of its own destruction." So, here we go again. >= (

gamepopper

#11

gamepopper said:

If the 3DS was region free, games were more readily available, the online shop didn't restrict you to a points system, there would be less reason for hacking. Hacking has great benefits, some of them give gamers a better experience with their work, so they shouldn't be the only ones being blamed for piracy, the pirates themselves who encourage it themselves.

So Renegade Kid, it's understandable to be a bit paranoid over piracy, but remember there are reasons why it exists.

MarioIdent

#12

MarioIdent said:

There was a previous NL post some time ago about how Nintendo were determined to stop hackers on 3DS and Wii U, I hope they do something, we don't want it ending up like the Wii and DS did... :(

Einherjar

#13

Einherjar said:

I NEVER saw a physical copy of Dementium 2 ANYWHERE. Hacking CAN have benefits, although they are small.
With developers that do not release their games world wide and systems that are region locked piracy is often the only way to play some games.
Dont get me wrong, im absolutely NOT pro piracy, but its crap like that, crap like DRM that give piracy at least some good arguments.

Jayden

#14

Jayden said:

@Hyperstar96 Try, not making any money to support the studio, pay bills and buy food?
Still think they're being paranoid? Piracy leads to nothing but bad things.

Prof_Clayton

#15

Prof_Clayton said:

If they just wanna make games, buy Petit Computer. :P
Anyone feel an update coming? Hopefully with Miiverse? :D

AyeHaley

#16

AyeHaley said:

Just import a 3DS if you want to play foreign games. Its not as if there aren't any games to play over here..

meppi

#18

meppi said:

The region-lock excuse is being used a lot these days.
Even though I don't think Nintendo would ever do this, I think they really should remove region locks from their systems to not give these hackers the excuse that they are doing it for the good of the customer. I would even be fine in having to buy a special "unlock app" from the shop or something like that, which would make the 3DS able to play Japanese and US games.
As someone who has imported a rather large amount of Japanese only games in the past 2 decades this affects me as well, yet I'm not looking forward to having a hack show up that might undermine the systems support from 3rd party developers.

9th_Sage

#19

9th_Sage said:

It's funny, what they said above (that is, Renegade Kid) is something I've tried to explain to people who are super gung-ho about piracy in the past. "But the DS was a success!" they say. Um, sure...but for who? Nintendo, definitely...but then there are smaller third parties like Renegade Kid who probably got hit hard by the fact that piracy was stupidly easy on DS by the end of it's lifespan. I'd hate to see that happen to 3DS, especially since it's pretty great so far.

Spoony_Tech

#20

Spoony_Tech said:

I hate hackers. Why do they need to run homebrew on the 3ds. Is it really necessary?! The 3ds is a video game system first and for most. You can run most of that other crap on a tablet if you want! I'm also surprised it took them so long.

Hyperstar96

#21

Hyperstar96 said:

Here we go again, everyone thinking that all hackers are pirates and everyone will take advantage of piracy. @Kagamine and @Einherjar are the only ones here who actually know what they're talking about. But I digress...

If piracy does kick off on the 3DS (and this applies especially for Wii U), it won't be nearly as bad since Nintendo is being more strict now. They actually have good online functions now and being denied access to these online functions is now more of a threat. People who "casually pirate" so to speak won't want to take the risk anymore.

MysticX

#23

MysticX said:

Sure, some hackers have non-nefarious intent with hacking, the anti region-locking for instance, some games take months to appear here in Europe (Or just don't crop up at all), so there's merit to hacking there, but as they say "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", so hacks WILL get abused for piracy.

But to go full blinders-on and saying that poor sales of a game are entirely due to piracy (The game couldn't have been bad or hard to find or anything, right?), that is an attitude fit for a child, not a professional company.

HugoSmits

#24

HugoSmits said:

I’m a hacker too… in fact, it wasn’t until the last two months of Flipper development I actually got cleared by Nintendo and got a real devkit. Now I think of it, the first time I showed Nintendo a build of Flipper was on my little sisters pink DS with some custom made hardware :)

When I look at the DS game market, I don’t really believe it was hackers that killed it, rather just a lot of bad games. The fact that Dementium II wasn’t selling well might also have something to do with the fact it wasn’t as widely available.

By the time that game came out the Nintendo DS was already marked a ‘casual gamer device’ meaning most stores where more happy to put puzzle games on their shelves.

I still see this, next February another bejeweled type of game I created will be released as a retail title for Nintendo DS.. while I still struggle to find somebody interested in publishing my original games.

I think we should stop putting our head into the sand by simply saying ‘it was piracy, nothing I can do about it!’ and instead take a good hard look at our industry, our games and how we market them (this includes pricing).
It’s time we face the real threats and deal with them in a professional way.

shinpichu

#25

shinpichu said:

@gamepopper
Amen to that. If Nintendo wants to stop piracy and hackers, they should improve their services. Clean up the eShop, remove the points system, remove region lock.

Also, I really wish some console dev added support for file patching for their games.

bro2dragons

#27

bro2dragons said:

I apologize if this is a dumb question, but I've only ever owned Nintendo systems, so I am a bit ignorant.

Is piracy not an equal problem on other consoles? Or is it just Nintendo's that get gutted and toyed with?

C-Olimar

#28

C-Olimar said:

Oh Renegade Kid, when you can charge £8 for a game on 3DS, then charge a fraction of that price for the same game with more content on iOS, why would you stop supporting 3DS? Plus Renegade's output has been less than stellar for 3DS so far: Mutant Mudds is dreadfully overrated, and the less said about Planet Crashers the better.

Rizsparky

#29

Rizsparky said:

I woudnt even pirate Planet Crashers, just because Mutant Mudds is a one hit wonder doesn't make R.K the holy grail of indie developers. Take a leaf out of WayForwards book...

AbeVigoda

#30

AbeVigoda said:

LOL@ those who think having no region locks would stop people from pirating games or that there are people out there who have hacked consoles who DON'T download games.

Every single person who runs homebrew on their DS or Wii has copied games, myself included.

SKTTR

#31

SKTTR said:

Homebrew and region unlocking, both are neat useful things, for at most 5% of all people with hacked consoles. The other 95% use their hacked consoles to play pirated games.

If 3DS is hacked now and no update can stop it, then small studios will fold just like on DS and Wii. Services like WiiWare died because of this. A real shame.

Good for speaking up about your concerns. Way to go, Renegade Kid.
The stupidity in the comments is overwhelming once again.
I guess most defenders have pirated games on their hacked consoles.

RunningWolf

#32

RunningWolf said:

I am surprised that it took this long to hack it. The console has been out since March 2011...

Bulbousaur

#33

Bulbousaur said:

Wait, so they will still support PC, which is easiest most pirated gaming platform, but not the 3DS?

kkslider5552000

#34

kkslider5552000 said:

yes Renegade Kid, this is the only time hackers will hack any game system ever. If you go somewhere else, this could never happen. Clearly.

Hokori

#35

Hokori said:

I'd only do a "hack" if it meant Japanese games form eShop, that being said I still won't buy Mutant Mudds

HugoSmits

#36

HugoSmits said:

@Fudge Yes I do. Almost all developers do, especially things like emulators (to quickly test if the enemies are placed correctly for example). I also use a lot of homebrew texture converting tools and I wrote a lot of my own tools (level editors, convertors, compression tools).

MikeDanger

#37

MikeDanger said:

Hey I would totally love to break the region lock on my system though. They're a bunch of 3ds games on japan I woul like to sink my hands into without importing a console as well.

I'm not defending the hackers but man it would be much cooler for the 3ds to be region lock free....

SirQuincealot

#38

SirQuincealot said:

just for threatenig us with this i dont think i will ever buy a renegade kid game again, especially with a name like renegade kid kind of hypocritical from them, they should rename their company benice kid then at least their crying would be more understandable

SteveW

#39

SteveW said:

Think what you want but when I had my flash cart for the DS I never used it for anything other than trying new games before I bought them. It sold me on a lot of games that I never would have trusted to buy. You can't trust game reviews alone.

AlmightyDerek

#40

AlmightyDerek said:

Why are some people saying the 3DS eShop is a points bases system? It's based on real money and you can add just the amount you need to buy a game. Also although I'm sure there are some benefits to hacking the 3DS they aren't worth it. The system is fine the way it is, don't ruin it just for a tiny amount of people who want to play imported games or homebrew games.

Advancedcaveman

#44

Advancedcaveman said:

Well, Renegade Kid put their game on iOS where piracy is so bad it's forced developers to pull their games. You don't need any special parts or modifications to jailbreak a iOS device, and I'll often hear about games with 98% piracy rate.

A game called "Battle Dungeon" was recently pulled because the sheer amount of pirated copies was overwhelming the developers servers; so people can pirate iPhone games and still use the online functions.

Waann

#45

Waann said:

Honestly, I think Dementium didn't sell well in Europe because it was very poorly marketed. Not saying DS piracy wasn't a problem , because it was--it was so easy to get flashcarts that even casual players managed to get their hands on them, and some of them didn't see anything wrong with never buying a single game (there are responsible flashcart users, but unfortunately they're not the majority). But many people just never knew those games existed--I've never seen one in a store, and you can't expect everyone to visit gaming forums regularly (or every regular forum visitor to like shooters).

And I know I wouldn't buy a sequel if I don't know the original game. It might have sold better with a subtitle instead of a number. I know it sounds stupid, but hey, every detail counts!

arrmixer

#46

arrmixer said:

Personally I feel most of commentors on here are naive on the fact that most of these developers are trying to make a LIVING off there fruits of labor and its not just a hobby to them.. In other words, accomplish a dream of theirs... and priacy does affect their bottom line..
The region lock issue is just an excuse in my book if nintendo lifts that restriction another one will pop up to make it okay....

TheDreamingHawk

#47

TheDreamingHawk said:

He has ever right to worry.... Piracy is illegal whether you like it or not, and the DS had a insane piracy problem... Hopefully they make a new system update to block the hack

WaLzgiStaff

#49

WaLzgi said:

I read a few alternative views on piracy as well. Notch's view was very impressive. He locked out a few features that could only be accessed by people who bought the game legally. Perhaps companies like Nintendo could implement this system (or do the opposite and make the game unplayable if it's copied)

Geonjaha

#50

Geonjaha said:

Jools Watsham needs to realise that piracy will always be present and stopping it completely and indefinitely is impossible. Threatening to stop supporting the platform wont solve anything - not that I'd really mind missing the sequel to an average-at-best Platformer.

I'd enjoy seeing Renegade Kid try to only develop games for platforms where there is no piracy - but bear in mind that would involve them never making another game ever.

@LZBirdboi - Notch only endorsed piracy by that method. He basically invited everyone who didn't want to pay for his game to download it elsewhere for free. Also; those additional features only for those who paid money, yeah - because hackers have no way to access those as well.

SteveW

#52

SteveW said:

@ncedcaveman - yeah that is pathetic, IOS has most games for 99 cents and ocassionally given out for free and piracy is that high. Hard to believe people are that lame...

RaylaxStaff

#53

Raylax said:

Delicate subject with no real right answer. On the one hand, hackers do tend to be people legitimately interested in finding out what makes the machine tick, and what they can accomplish from the hardware. This is a perfectly rational hobby and whilst it does inevitably open the door to piracy, I can't say I believe the original intention is there. We can argue the moralities of opening those doors unintentionally, but frankly I have no intention of trying to pick a side in a futile debate.

I will say, though, that the "I'll download it to try it first" logic is a frankly ridiculous excuse. It's equivalent to walking out of your local video store with an arm-full of Blu-Rays and telling the owner you'll pay for them if you enjoy them. It doesn't work like that.

King_Boo

#55

King_Boo said:

I wish all pirates would just go jump in a volcano. There have been too many games fail due to poor sales because the majority playing just stole it, and then subsequently hacked the game and ruined the online for everyone else.

Mk_II

#56

Mk_II said:

ive witnessed parents come into a shop to buy a DS. "Do you have one of those cards to go with it?" "No, we cant sell those, they're illegal". "Oh never mind, ill get it somewhere else". Thats how bad it got an a lot of games were never released here because it just wouldnt be worth the trouble.

BTW: i am not convinced that they've fully unlocked the 3DS already. AFAIK the DSi mode hasnt been cracked and thats been on the market for ages. Nintendo learned a thing or two from the DS piracy debacle.

SteveW

#57

SteveW said:

@King_Boo - I don't believe it affects sales as much as people claim, I hate piracy but most of the games that pirates are stealing are games they wouldn't have bought in the first place.

SteveW

#58

SteveW said:

I won't hack my 3DS but I would love to have an adapter to play import games.

WanderFan91

#60

WanderFan91 said:

Software pirates, hmmph! They ruin everything! >=(
For a personal example: I was given Dragon Quest V: Hand of the Heavenly Bride for the DS a few years ago (little did I know that I was given a pirated copy), curious to try a Dragon Quest game for the first time, and the first few minutes it wasn't so bad, all I had to was talk to everyone on board the boat in the beginning of the game. I did, which should've caused the boat to dock to the next area, but it never happened. So I decided to try over and over again, but nothing kept happening. It was because of this misfortune that's made me swear to myself to never play a Dragon Quest game again, even if the likelihood of their piracy is slim. And you know who's to blame for that??

Pirates! Software Pirates!!

Those scum ruined my foray into the Dragon Quest series and have scared me from trying another one; they deserve to get caught, every last one of them!!! I will never forgive them for this, NEVER!

Hokori

#63

Hokori said:

I don't wanna get games from the eShop for free, just you know Japanese ones, I'd even pay extra like the 4800 Pts for some games I'd spend an extra $8 for games I may never see, I think the highest I've seen on 3DS eShop is 5400 Pts

Bazly

#64

Bazly said:

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I REALLY don't think piracy affects sales as much as developers like to think it does, and I find it very disappointing that RK would be as silly as to decide not to develop for the system. EVERY SYSTEM WILL GET HACKED. Why even bother developing at all if you're afraid of that?

At the same time: there are a lot of things I believe piracy can provide that companies are selfishly not willing to, such as issues with region locks, that I think are actually important issues, when it comes to CERTAIN media. HAVING SAID THAT: the mentality of THESE kinds of hackers, and the general public when it comes to hacking tools, quite simply pisses me off.

They're basically saying that they bought a system that they don't want to play the games for. Why on earth would you spend money on a system if it has nothing to offer you without it being hacked? I can understand if you're using piracy to make available to you a TV show or song that you can't purchase normally in your region, or even to play games you can't otherwise play (whether because they're too old or hard to find or whatever) ON YOUR COMPUTER - but to buy a gaming system and essentially "break" it so you can play games on it that aren't FOR it... confusing.

BlackZero98

#68

BlackZero98 said:

Wow, Renegade Kid has absolutely no idea of what he's talking about.

When you think of piracy, you shouldn't think of it as lost sales or money you could have had, that's a stupid way to look at things and makes you sound like a weasely anti-piracy lawyer. Piracy has been around since the very earliest days of video gaming- and more than likely, since the very earliest days of recorded media. It is an inevitability, not a demon to be wiped out. He's wrong in the opinion that people who pirate don't ever buy; most people treat their pirated copy as a demo version, not as a full purchase-for-free. If they like it, they'll buy it. If your game is complete crap, though, they'll probably just delete the ROM. Very few people pirate games for keeps all the time, and Renegade Kid's weak threat to not develop for the system because of his paranoia that people aren't paying for his game is pathetic at best. Nevermind the hypocrisy; saying that you shouldn't ever play around in the 3DS' guts, then saying that the hackers of yesteryear did it and it's a great way to learn about the system you're mutilating? Hokay, Dr. Opinionchange!

In short, Renegade Kid, change your diaper, put on your big boy pants, and accept the fact that piracy will exist no matter what you do or how many Nerf guillotines you put over your development for a system in the event that someone sneaks a copy of your indie platformer. You sound like a child, and it's embarrassing to read through your crying about an issue that shouldn't even be taken into consideration when developing a video game. If anything, you should be PROUD that people are pirating your game! If they want to try it, the interest factor is there, isn't it?

Magnet_Man018

#69

Magnet_Man018 said:

@Tech101 Same here, pal! Piracy is very bad imo. I hated it when my friends were sayin': I have 50 ds for free, all pokemon at level 100 and 10 Darkrai, I pass a game 100% doing nothing, etc... But it's inevitable, hackers gonna hack, no matter what! :/

RaylaxStaff

#70

Raylax said:

@BlackZero98 As I explained in my previous post, pirating a game in order to 'try it out' does not fly as any kind of legitimacy pass for piracy. You can't walk into a DVD store, grab a handful of DVDs and promise the owner you'll pay for the ones you like and return the rest.

People seem to believe they live in a society where their wants come above all else. They do not. Your needs are taken care of. Your wants are constrained to the rules of the society that you agree to live by. You cannot pick-and-choose which particular rules you wish to follow, no matter how much you attempt to justify them. Sure, that means that some things become inconvenient. Some things will seem unfair. Whether it's the lack of demos, region-locking, unavailability or whatever other problems stand between you and a game you want to play. The rules are far from perfect. But that does not give you the right to manipulate them as you see fit.

tl;dr Life is hard.

arrmixer

#71

arrmixer said:

@Waann
Yeah you're definitely in the minority as am I... another user made a point in creating an app to allow region play.. I agreed with you from that point of view..

But I was specifically referring to the majority of users who use 'region locking" or "I just want to try it out" as an excuse just to ease their conscience.

WanderFan91

#72

WanderFan91 said:

@Swiket - perhaps it is, I agree, but I don't wish to take any chances. The reason I didn't buy it at the time was because I was ordering SNES games from eBay, and even when I did go to stores, something else always caught my attention.

arrmixer

#74

arrmixer said:

@BlackZero98
I believe your're referring to the hackers of old... because the majority of hackers would delete the rom if they don't like the game but the chances of them actually buying it are slim... most kids rather buy themselves something tangible that they cannot simulate for free b4 they end up buying that game they got for free in the first place...

I do agree with your latter post though priacy is a given just like lost inventory..

BlackZero98

#75

BlackZero98 said:

@Raylax Piracy is not a promise to buy it, I don't understand where you got that. There is no promise to buy involved whatsoever- as far as I'm concerned, playing a pirated copy for a few minutes (or watching a few minutes of a movie, in your metaphor) is making a slightly more informed opinion as to whether or not you want the product.

Being as it is that piracy could be considered bending the rules, as far as I'm aware it's perfectly legal as long as you're not publicly distributing the content or attempting to sell it as your own; so if you just want a Mario & Luigi ROM for your GBA flashcart and you're not going to be a douchebag and try to sell it to anybody or say you made the game, you're perfectly A-OK. A more apt metaphor would be that you can walk into a DVD store and pick a free version of the movie out from a bin that's shoved into a dark corner of the store; the manager of the store and the director of the movie doesn't like that people pick it out from the free bin and can threaten to sue, but so long as you don't resell the movie or try to say you made it you're perfectly fine. I'll have to look up the specific law in question, I just remember the barest details of it at the present.

You seem to be attempting to make the point that pirates are spoiled children who bend the rules to suit themselves. Not so!

AVahne

#76

AVahne said:

@Bazly
Piracy DOES affect sales pretty badly. The denizens of the Internet love to tell themselves otherwise to feel better about themselves and to put blame on the developers for whatever reason.

Sun

#77

Sun said:

Piracy is always bad. Bad for developers, bad for artists, bad for small studios, bad for the customers that pay and support the games and bad for the industry as the developers do not risk that much if piracy is stalking.

Only good for the thieves that get free games.

arrmixer

#78

arrmixer said:

@BlackZero98
I'm sorry man but that whole free DVD bin story you just wrote makes no sense... It's a movie either you pay to watch it or you don't...

Yeah and you and million other gamers are trying the whole game out for free and are not planning to sell it either..

BlackZero98

#79

BlackZero98 said:

@arrmixer But the same could be said of video games, couldn't it? It's a video game, either you pay to play it or you don't?

But there sits that bin in the corner of the store nobody wants you to see............................

AVahne

#80

AVahne said:

I find it hilarious that pirates use "Trying before buying" as an excuse when some of the games they're pirating have DEMOS.

RaylaxStaff

#81

Raylax said:

@BlackZero98 I'll admit it's been a while since I visited a video store, but I don't recall having ever seen a bucket at the back labelled "free stuff, please take this off our hands (but don't tell the manager / director)." Nor can I imagine that such a bucket, should it exist, would contain the shops' entire library of movies.

Regarding the promise to buy thing. I understand where you're coming from, but it's like this: if the developer provides a demo or trailers, screenshots, promotional material, then you use that to justify your purchase. If they don't, that doesn't give you the right to begin inventing your own promotional material. Might want to check out the law on intellectual properties for further reading on that one.

warvad

#82

warvad said:

Are they kidding? Poor sales are never due to piracy. Poor sales are due to having a horrible product. Piracy is free advertising.

Want to know who would be against free advertising? People who are trying to sell you junk.

Scary_Old_Lady

#86

Scary_Old_Lady said:

To stop piracy all you have to do is make more cool system updates with amazing features, then everyone will be jealous of non-piratees (Piratees :) ) and update, features like Miiverse, a faster browser, youtube and more StreetPass Mii Plaza puzzles would make things better. (I have high hopes... :( )

DerpSandwich

#87

DerpSandwich said:

They're completely overreacting and blaming their own failings on "pirates". The percentage of people that mod/break their systems to get free games is so ridiculously low.

I agree with some of the above sentiments. Renegade Kid...grow up.

SheldonRandoms

#88

SheldonRandoms said:

I would only like to get rid of that region lock, just to play games not released in my country, I remember getting the ouendan games and they are some of my favorite games for the DS (also Elite Beat Agents) but what if they made another one for the 3DS, how would I play it?

But I agree with Renegade Kid, I hope all of this gets better, or else this could be it for them making games for Nintendo :(

Waann

#89

Waann said:

I like Valve's views on piracy. Basically, if you provide a better service than pirates do, you won't have to worry (much) about piracy. And they can prove it. It's always more efficient to be loved than to be feared.

Right now, Nintendo just isn't providing a great service: very few demos, region locking, expensive downloadable games, no accounts that could be used with all their systems... It's getting better (except for that region lock thing), but they're not there yet. That is no excuse to pirate their games, but it provides incentive for people to just do... whatever the hell they want.

Muzer

#90

Muzer said:

I'll just state a few things I believe to be facts here:

  • Most homebrew developers who actually have a brain and enough knowledge to be able to find an exploit, at least for Nintendo consoles in recent years, are against piracy and just work on their exploits for the purposes of running their own code and fiddling about with cool hardware.
  • Nintendo consoles more than any other have huge failings in the amount that they allow people to do, with stupid and pointless restrictions left and right.
  • The PS3 was not seriously hacked until after Sony removed the ability to run custom operating systems.
  • Piracy usually only comes to pass after homebrew has been established by less talented programmers hacking other people's work together.

I think all of these point towards one conclusion - if you remove the motivation to run homebrew, you remove the piracy. To remove the motivation to run homebrew you need to give users enough freedom to run their own code already (being careful to ensure it's not quite enough to allow piracy, like Sony did). It's Nintendo's failing to understand this that indirectly creates the rampant piracy we've seen on the Wii and DS.

rayword45

#91

rayword45 said:

Hurry up and make Moon 2 then. That way we have a 3DS FPS before piracy is rampant.

rayword45

#92

rayword45 said:

@AyeHaley Yes, let me drop $280 to buy $70 games and play them that way while carrying 2 handhelds around.

Screw region locking.

C7_

#93

C7_ said:

someone should tell them that piracy is equally rampant no matter where they sell their game so if they're gonna take this approach then they might as well just stop making games.

I don't support piracy at all, but the truth is that it's normally less of a problem than developers make it out to be.

KnightRider666

#94

KnightRider666 said:

Region locking in general sucks. It keeps people from enjoying games from all around the world. Why should anybody have to buy an import system just to play import games? It's tough enough to put out the money to buy one new system let alone an additional system from each region. I'm glad Game Boy Advance SP's aren't region locked. I have bought so many import games from Europe(and a few from Japan) that were never released in the US. Region locking should be a thing of the past, not present or the future.

rayword45

#95

rayword45 said:

Frankly, I'm against piracy, but I'm more for Homebrew since the Wii proved that beyond the hackers, you can do tons.

Also, RK is really ignorant to say that piracy killed their sales. Explain how PC games and services like Steam stay afloat when piracy is easier then using a microwave.

iphys

#96

iphys said:

I'd love to have homebrew, but I don't want to see people pirating games or using online cheats. I wish we had demos for all games, because then there would be no excuse to pirate to "try before you buy," and the developers couldn't so easily trick customers by selling games that are little more than shovelware.

DarkCoolEdge

#97

DarkCoolEdge said:

Some of the things that come with piracy are good (not having to use the Wii's dvd for example) but piracy IS bad. You just have to look at the DS or better, PSP.

I'm fed up of people looking at me like I'm a lunatic becausr I buy all my games. It gets on my nerves pretty bad.

Nevertheless, Renegade Kid isn't that good. In fact their games go from bad to ok and sometimes, few, good. Mutant Mudds is very overrated.

theblackdragonAdmin

#98

theblackdragon said:

guys, we are not here to discuss the legality of piracy/ROMs/etc. or whether you personally pirate or not — that portion of the discussion does not belong here. the man featured in the article is worried about how piracy is going to affect his sales, bottom line. please, let's keep the discussion to the article at hand.

rayword45

#100

rayword45 said:

Alright fine, here's the bottom line, piracy does not affect sales as much as developers think at all.

Angry Birds is still a success (and that's a sad fact) despite the fact that it takes all of 5 minutes to jailbreak your iTouch and download it, or all of 5 seconds to simply run an APK on an Android.

Steam is still a thriving service even though you can simply pirate practically any of the games there.

again, this is not the place for that discussion. please stop — TBD

rayword45

#102

rayword45 said:

For a different perspective, Valve says that a good service trumps pirates. Hugo right here admits to using homebrew for development, and even showed off games using homebrew. The people at Team Meat think that piracy helps reach new audiences (something I both agree and disagree with), and for a really loose example, many developers believe in the good will of consumers and simply remove all DRM limitations. Quote Tomorrow Corporation "Congratulations! We're a team of three guys who quit our jobs to build this game on our laptops, by ourselves, with no office, and no funding. The game has no DRM or copy protection of any sort, and is very easy to pirate, but we rely on honest players to properly buy the game so we can keep making experimental new games like this.

You can find the real version here: http://tomorrowcorporation.com/littleinferno

Thanks guys, stay warm in there!
Kyle, Kyle, and Allan"

While they're obviously against piracy, they don't threaten to quit development or make idiot moves like Capcom and BCR2.

Suicune

#103

Suicune said:

@gamepopper

How dare they not let us play the games they make! We have a right to get a game they havent localizied! By any means necessary!

Suicune

#104

Suicune said:

Nintendo can do whatever they want with their products, and by accepting their terms & agreements, you agree that you will obey that.

JaythekidRS

#105

JaythekidRS said:

Oh, goodness. I don't feel safe around my 3DS anymore. The reason why is because someone could hack my 3DS and I'll never be able to play it again!

nomeacuerdo

#106

nomeacuerdo said:

Last year when I got my 3DS I headed right to the eShop to punish my credit card with Virtual console titles and... Surprise! My South American credit card wasn't valid to buy anything!

Maybe if Nintendo tried to give more effort to perfect their online retail services they would'nt have to worry so much for homebrew. Also, it break my balls that I can't put a movie on the memory and watch it. Netflix doesn't work either. The only way I can use my 3DS is with physical copies.

So that's a "give me homebrew to improve my experience" for me, please.

rayword45

#107

rayword45 said:

@Jaybuscus Please do some research before making ignorant statements.

A. It's very unlikely someone will be able to hack through networks like that. The Wii is fine.
B. Even if they could, who's enough of a jerk to do that?
C. Warranties. Renew them.

Pogocoop

#108

Pogocoop said:

At this point, I would do anything to get around region locking.

I own a copy of Project Mirai I can't even play...
But I would never resort to piracy, at least not on a Nintendo Console.

Madotsuki

#109

Madotsuki said:

Yeah, this is just a load of crap. Piracy might reduce game sales, but I honestly don't care, because a lot of lost sales are likely people who would have bought the game and barely played it due to not liking it. But that's besides the point.

I have two main points. One, even despite the piracy, many DS developers had commercial success. If you weren't having commercial success, why are you blaming piracy? Obviously others are doing well, and I doubt they were pirated that much less. You're just not making a good game, or if you are (in the case of developers like Renegade Kid) you're not promoting it right.

The other main point: Where the heck are they gonna go? Assuming they stick with handhelds, the PSP is rampant with piracy, the Vita barely sold anything so far, and they've already complained about the DS. They can't go to PC, because there's piracy there too. So, they'll go to consoles? I guess they'll just end up on Xbox Live Arcade, then.

Also, region locking... If anything, Nintendo deserves for the 3DS to be hacked, just because of that. They really had it coming. They don't deserve the piracy, but really, what did they expect? People would be happy with region locking?

WindWakerLink

#110

WindWakerLink said:

Seems like hackers excuse for hacking is the "Region lock" issue. However, I often wonder if region lock wasn't the case would they still hack? Probably, right? In the end, hacking just messes it up for everyone....

AugustusOxy

#112

AugustusOxy said:

Get rid of the fricken region lock and people wouldn't do crap like this. There is no reason for a region lock, and you are punishing fans of japanese games such as myself by putting it there.

I for one have no plans on hacking my 3DS, however, I do think that if nintendo was smart enough, they'd sell an app that would allow you to play Japanese games. Taking that sort of initiative would help fight a lot of piracy issues.

Ontop of that, piracy doesn't hurt the industry nearly as bad as developers want to say it does. What hurts the industry is ten million developers copying each other and no one doing anything new or interesting, forcing every one to be tightbutted with their money and scared to spend more than a few bucks on a game out of fear of repetition.

rayword45

#113

rayword45 said:

No region lock and easy homebrew would mean this would be long delayed.

It would still happen, but then you could make a fair piracy argument. Nobody would buy a cart except for pirates, homebrewers prefer softmods.

Mordresh

#115

Mordresh said:

Stop supporting the platform? Pretty arrogant by Renegade Kid. How about us, the paying customer, stopping to support them? Don't start crying before bitten.

ouroborous

#116

ouroborous said:

Wow, that's really drastically preemptively paranoid. One rumor that someone is just at the point of checking out the code of the 3DS and you wet your pants? Way to over-react.
A) It's just a rumor at this point
B) It doesn't mean anything as of yet
C) It hasn't been made public
D) It hasn't been exploited and maybe never will be
E) Nintendo has actually done a stellar job at keeping the 3DS locked up so far
F) For the record, there is no proof that piracy in any form has EVER hurt, much less killed, anything at all
G) Even if they can pirate 3DS games, DSiWare has been and still remains impervious to pirates, so any download game like Mutant Mudds is at zero risk anyway, so the fear is completely irrelevant and unfounded
H) Pirates are and will always be the minority, so acting like they can ruin the world is irrational, more people will still buy your product than steal it, even if there is a better way, the anti-piracy propaganda is so pervasive and the apparently drastically ignorant masses just eat it up, having no experience with it or real opinion of their own
I) If you made the things that people want available for a fair price, the pirate contingent would drop to near zero, (if the official means was easier than bothering to find workarounds). Just give people what they obviously want and make a fortune you idiots. STEAL THE IDEAS FROM THE PIRATES, or hire them to help you and everybody wins.

Shane904

#118

Shane904 said:

Colors! 3D was originated from Colors!, an amazing homebrew app for the DS. This, along with Hugo, are just a few of the many examples of how homebrew isn't bad. The 3ds hacking that people are so worried about was no more than a "Hello World!" app...

SparkOfSpirit

#119

SparkOfSpirit said:

Because piracy did the PSP a world of wonders. Believe it or not, basing future events on what has happened before is a perfectly valid position.

This isn't paranoid. Paranoid would be pulling out before the system has even been properly pirated yet.

FarukoSH

#120

FarukoSH said:

They are worried about the 3DS piracy, yet they put MM on PC and iOS, yep, that makes PERFECT SENSE

gundam00

#121

gundam00 said:

Cry me a river! Hacking is inevitable. Yes, Nintendo is taking the proper steps to prevent piracy. Renegade Kid get your panties out of a bunch.

If piracy gets bad on the 3DS, we will have no choice but to stop supporting the platform with new games.

You won't be missed. Mutant Mudds was boring and didn't even rank GOTY on Nintendo Life.

With Nintendo offering 1st party download games like Zelda 3D, Mario 3DLand, do you really think they're going to sit idle to pirating??

If you quit doing what you love because there's a possibility of hacking, maybe you don't really love what you do and are only in it for the money.

WildMan

#124

WildMan said:

I will never like pirates or hackers as long as I live. They always try to find excuses, but what they are doing is still illegal.

sweetiepiejonus

#125

sweetiepiejonus said:

I am not for hacking but this is stupid. Show me proof besides kids on the internet and I'll believe it. Make a good product and people will usually buy it. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Beyond Good & Evil, for example. That's life, not piracy. Anyone who is looking down from their soapbox, I'm sure they will admit they have never watched a video online. Listened to a song without paying for it. As much piracy is abundant, I'd be willing to bet hypocrisy is just as bad. And it seems from this thread you don't need any proof. Therefore I am right.

WaveBoy

#126

WaveBoy said:

Looking back, Mutant Mudds wasn't even that great. It's 12-bit visual style was a bit akward, pretty much unappealing and incredibly weak Art-Direction wise. Renegade Kid's only other 'decent' title is the first Dementium, but if you were to strip away the touch screen controls it would of failed pretty hard. Most of these eShop 3DS offerings are pretty lack luster as it is. I don't know if It's because i'm getting older or what, but i wouldn't even have the patience to take on Sakura Samurai again(it's a solid effort, but it can get quite repetitive).

Pushmo and Mighty Switch force are the only real two that even impressed me outside of a few
of the NES 3D Classics. :p

Ichiban

#130

Ichiban said:

Drop 3DS game prices, both retail & digital. They are so overpriced, which will only entice more to pirate.

Gioku

#131

Gioku said:

I read that the 3DS has finally been hacked, and my first thought was "uh-oh"

gundam00

#134

gundam00 said:

@KnightRider666 Thanks! I agree there is no need for Region Locking. I imported my Gameboy Advance back in the day before it was released in the States, with the Japanese versions of Super Mario Bros. 2, Mega Man Battle Network, and a couple Japan-only puzzle games that were really fun! There are Japanese games for 3DS I would import if it weren't for region locking - specifically Gundam 3D!

KnightRider666

#135

KnightRider666 said:

@gundam00: I found a bunch of awesome pinball games from Europe for the GBA: Pinball Advance, Pinball Challenge Deluxe , & Ottifanten Pinball. Also, check out Super Robot Pinball for the GBC from Japan.

Big_Al1

#136

Big_Al1 said:

I would kill to be able to play Culdcept and Puyo Puyo 20th Anniversary in my US 3DS, but meh, you can't always get what you want.

gojiguy

#137

gojiguy said:

It's all about dat region locking. I blame Nintendo for giving pirates a REASON to do this.

It's stupid to be in a foreign country unable to buy games for my TRAVEL GAMING DEVICE.

Nibelilt

#140

Nibelilt said:

Oh come on now. I love Mutant Mudds, but Renegade, you are completely ridiculous in this. If you WERE so worried about this then you wouldn't put your game onto the App Store and PC and it's really as simple as that. I'm against piracy, I'm indifferent on honebrew, but you're being totally stupid...

Dogpigfish

#141

Dogpigfish said:

Sounds like a cop out for low quality software. You gave consumers a demo and they still didn't buy your game; that's not piracy, that's lack of depth (no pun intended).

GreenDream

#143

GreenDream said:

This really depends on the platform and circumstances...

On PC and mobile, I think being DRM-free is essential for great customer service which treats them with respect. GOG.com is a good example of this. They trust their customers to not distribute their offline-capable products over torrent sites, and provide plenty of extras and forum support, which justifies the increased costs over services like Steam, Android Apps, and the iStore.

For home and handheld consoles, the publishers and executives aren't necessarily helping the developers' cause- hackers actually distribute superior versions of many products over the default sold ones, for better or worse. For example, the PSP firmware wars were a classic example of hackers creating and providing (free of charge) a completely superior product in every imaginable option. This same fate will also likely befall the Vita, at the current rate of Sony squandering it's potential. Even the previously indestructible PS3 software was hacked, infamously catalyzed due to Sony removing Linux support.

If Nintendo wants to avoid these pitfalls, they need to be vigilant in providing services which do not spit on their customers' intelligence. The R4 was likely an attempt to "modernize" the DS beyond it's admittedly GBA-like technological limitations, at least before DSiWare remedied that situation. Unfortunately, the ever-prevalant Famicom Disk System woes came back to haunt Nintendo in this case.

Overall, if your customers get a great deal, then pirating won't seem like a superior option by any stretch of the mind. Until more publishers and distributors realize this, pirating will be more likely to be fatal, rather than being just a nuisance.

Slapshot

#144

Slapshot said:

The 3DS being hacked was inevitable, just as it is with every gaming console, but I'm sure this happening was accelerated due to Nintendo's very own decision to region lock the console.

LittleIrves

#145

LittleIrves said:

Mutant Mudds comes out: "YAY it's amazing!"
MM dev speaks out on potential negative consequences of piracy: "BOO it's way overrated, who needs ya anyway?"
Well that was unexpected...

sweetiepiejonus

#146

sweetiepiejonus said:

LittleIrves, you haven't considered there are people who didn't say "Yay it's amazing!" have you? Unless you have names to go with your alleged quotes you're talking about an imaginary group.

Sorry it's just annoying when people use quotes incorrectly especially when they aren't quoting anyone.

Stuffgamer1

#147

Stuffgamer1 said:

I don't blame anyone for hacking to remove a region lock...but the problem is that it ALWAYS leads to other uses for the hack. Better solution: Nintendo gets their heads out of their butts and stops region-locking everything. Hey, it works for Sony.

TKOWL

#148

TKOWL said:

Articles about piracy are always the best way to see the worst from everyone, eh?

Phle

#149

Phle said:

@Einherjar I really wanted to play Dementium and Dementium 2, but I have never found a place to buy them. Amazon UK sells them, but refuses to ship them to where I live. So I ended up just giving up. I guess the publishers of Dementium really doesn't like letting people play their games, not even if they are willing to play a lot more than most DS games cost.

About the piracy matter, I don't know much about it myself. I don't consider getting the game in other ways than the legal ones. I can understand motive for piracy though. I'm STILL waiting for Devil Survivor Overclocked. But I've already waited for more than a year, a few more months wont hurt I guess.

t_vo

#151

t_vo said:

The only reason to hack a system is to allow for pirated games. Everything else is all BS to "legitimize" it to appease their conscience and lawyers. Hackers killed the wii. Developers stopped supporting it because game sales dropped like a boat anchor when the wii was hacked. I know guys with hard drives full of wii games they never paid for. Why spend your hard earned money on games when you can get them for free right? I guess if I can't afford to buy that nice sports car I should just steal it right? If you didn't buy it, you stole it. It's not piracy, it's stealing. So hackers, don't kill the 3ds, and the WiiU. Go hack something else.

Gridatttack

#152

Gridatttack said:

For all of you that are "zOMG, kill teh 3ds hackerzz, tey wil ruein the system" keep in mind that ninty is more prepared to fight piracy on the 3DS :P

Also, I think its really silly to stop supporting the system if it gets hacked, yet they would still support the other platforms, in which piracy runs rampart.

dimi

#153

dimi said:

The news here is about the hack. Dont think that anyone really cares about renegade kid. And the hack isn't even around the corner. It happened in ps3 aftter 5 years, it didn't hurt sales. Just make a good game and people will buy it.

Obywan

#154

Obywan said:

oh my... LOL This whole thread was a good one!

I still have a little popcorn left, so keep on going!

DaveGX

#155

DaveGX said:

Oh boy....hacking. here we go again. Here's my opinion on this homebrew garbage; If you're dissatisfied with the product or can't accept something that's being offered, dont buy it, don't mess with it and try and make it your own product. Simple as that. How would you feel if you were in their shoes and someone started altering something of yours already gaining success? That's pretty much what it boils down to, regardless of piracy. Majorities say consoles and handhelds aren't PCs so if that's their so biased opinion of gaming then quit treating them like 1 with this homebrew nonsense; Do whatever you will on PC and leave the console/handheld market alone.

Henmii

#156

Henmii said:

"Hackers ruin everything"

I totally agree, though I have to admit region locking is also VERY evil!!

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