News Article

Sakurai: Dual Analogue Control in Kid Icarus: Uprising Was "Technically Impossible"

Posted by Thomas Whitehead

Stylus aiming speed "is on a whole different level"

Kid Icarus: Uprising enjoyed an excellent critical reception from the majority of the gaming press, though even some of the most positive reviews raised the controls as an issue. We argued that they work well 'with practice' in our Kid Icarus: Uprising review, but it was nevertheless a common concern amongst critics and gamers on community forums.

With that issue following his game around, Masahiro Sakurai has defended the controls in an interview with IGN, addressing the stylus aiming and the fact that dual analogue control wasn't included.

Considering how close to the limit we pushed the 3DS during development, it's a miracle that we were even able to provide support for left-handed controls at the point of completion. Providing support for independent analog control was something that was technically impossible.

I do have my doubts over whether it'd be that easy to provide support. I think any game needs to provide new experiences and stimulating things to discover, but if we provided run-of-the-mill controls for it, that cuts down on the game's potential. If a player used to touchscreen-based aiming played against someone used to right-analog control, the first player would probably dominate. The speed is on a whole different level.

If there are players who say that it makes their hand tired, that's because you're applying too much force. Try to relax and work on building a rhythm to your control. Place the pen in the middle of the touchscreen; when you're flicking it, take the pen off the screen as you're sweeping with it, and stop right there. That's the basic idea.

Sakurai clearly feels that issues with the controls are down to gamers or critics not embracing the way the title is supposed to be played. He cited a similar reaction to the original Super Smash Bros. on Nintendo 64.

Smash Bros. led to similar misunderstandings when it first came out. Some people, including within the company, commented that they couldn't imagine a worse game. The project was really saved by the fact that people "got" how to play it after it was released. If we had just listened to the complaints and instituted health gauges or command-based special moves, I don't think we would have invented a new style of play that way. The controls here really aren't that difficult, either, so I'm hoping that people will be able to get used to them.

What do you think of the Kid Icarus: Uprising controls? Have you got used to them? Do you agree or disagree with Sakurai that they're the best option for this title?

[via uk.ds.ign.com]

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User Comments (99)

accc

#1

accc said:

Not that I disagree with him, but isn't there already a control option that lets you aim with the joystick and move with the face buttons? It seems like it should have been easy to implement dual joystick controls once they had that option in place. But still, given how much better the touch screen controls are for aiming he probably shouldn't have put in the other control option at all.

Adam

#3

Adam said:

I don't understand his comparison to Smash Bros. Dual analog would make this game easier to learn. Command-based specials would make Smash harder to learn. KIU's controls take hours of getting used to while Smash Bros's take a few seconds at most.

I am surprised more fighters haven't caught on and abandoned commands, really. It just favors memorization, not skill. If every fighter is going to end up with 30+ characters, each with 15+ moves when you count supers and all that other nonsense, commands are just adding to a learning curve and placing an artificial barrier between experienced players and newcomers that has nothing to do with skill.

tat2

#4

tat2 said:

I just got the game, and my biggest complaint would be with the powers. Their so slow and tedious that if you're searching for a specific power you're open for attacks for quite a while, unless I'm missing something. And if I am, I blame the tutorials for not making it clear.

FluffyNinja

#6

FluffyNinja said:

I do believe that the stylus is the best option for this game. Stylus allows you to have a fast aiming speed and allows you to flick to quickly rotate, which is especially important in multiplayer. And I feel that the game is too fast paced for dual analog controls anyways. Of course, this is coming from a person who plays a lot of FPS games on the PC, so I required a faster aiming option.

Whopper744

#7

Whopper744 said:

The contorls are tough, but I use the buttons anyway, so I don't have to fool with the stylus and touch screen. The controls are pretty point blank I guess, but at the same time, it's a little hard to control.
Man I suck at wording things.

metafaniel

#8

metafaniel said:

I'm super enjoying the game, it's too awesome for me. At first when I didn't own it, I read those reviews complaining about the control, I almost didn't buy it because of this, but the positive comments where enough to give it a try and WOW I enjoy this game so much!

While playing at first I felt I wasn't playing well so I ADJUST THE AIMING RETICLE to my personal needs and the way I play. Now I can play easily and precisely even with my thumb on a moving bus!!

So, my conclusion it's players doesn't bother to adjust the reticle to their needs. I think the control it's quite good and, yes, it need practice at first but it's a quite good control scheme FOR ME ;)

BenAV

#9

BenAV said:

Anyone who says this game has bad controls is just doing it wrong.

mrkuribo

#11

mrkuribo said:

The controls are fine. Kid Icarus couldn't really work that well with analog aiming anyway because it's so hectic. I had problems when I first started to play but adjusting the reticle speed really helped a lot. ALWAYS CHECK THE OPTIONS before starting to play your games, people :). I do sometimes get some hand pain but it's quite common with 3DS anyway since the system itself is so uncomfortable to hold. I think that those complaining about the stylus controls are probably same folk who don't understand motion controls and play FPS games with dual analog....

seronja

#12

seronja said:

i did have problems, at the first ground battle but then i got used to it in like 5 minutes after that

Robo-goose

#13

Robo-goose said:

By the end of the second chapter, one can easily get a strong grip on the controls. I'm surprised that so many are having trouble with them, seeing as how nice of a setup it is.

DrDaisy

#14

DrDaisy said:

I'm so sick of excuses. Just because a developer prefers a certain way to play doesn't mean there shouldn't be options. That logic really hurt games like Metroid Other M and it was also the main reason I didn't buy ExciteBots. I also didn't buy Super Smash Bros on N64 because I hated using the analog control stick in it.

I know it's a stretch, but it reminds me of school teachers demanding left-handed students use their right hands with the expectation that they'll just adapt. And no, I'm not saying Nintendo is forcing anyone to play its games so don't even go there.

Big_Gamer

#15

Big_Gamer said:

The 3DS gets to heavy holding with one hand so the stylus controls dont cut it for me.
I use the dual holding option with both the slide and buttons which works perfectly fine.

Burning_Spear

#16

Burning_Spear said:

@metafaniel

"Now I can play easily and precisely even with my thumb on a moving bus!!"

I have to play parent here and say it's really not safe to play while you're touching a moving bus. Please be more careful.

Wesker

#17

Wesker said:

I prefer to play my games sitting on an armchair or on the couch, not hunched over a desk like i'm putting together a model airplane.

warioswoods

#18

warioswoods said:

It's true that dual analog could not even begin to compete with the aiming speed offered by the touchscreen. I gave a friend my Starfox 64 3DS, but would have kept it (and enjoyed it immensely more) if they'd have allowed a touchscreen aiming mode. For me, pushing a cursor around the screen using a stick just feels archaic.

BenAV

#19

BenAV said:

I use the stylus controls, but I still manage to hold the system in both hands with a pretty good grip, which is actually really comfortable for me.

Sure, they could have added dual circle pad support, but they already added more than enough alternate options, and anyone who elects not to use the stylus controls is always going to have an extremely significant disadvantage against players who are.
I'm curious to see how people hold the system when they're playing, because it's serious not an issue for me whatsoever.

thefabfour64

#21

thefabfour64 said:

I've had no problems with the controls and I can see where he's coming from. KI:U is very frantic/fast-paced. You really do need the stylus to keep up.

Minny

#22

Minny said:

I have called Nintendo of America on this one. I am left-handed, 10% of the world's population is left-handed as well. The option of using ABXY to move doesn't allow for the freedom an analog stick provides. I ended up criticizing this to people high up at Nintendo of America, bringing up the issue of the circle pad pro being sold out and only one location to purchase it. They sent me one in mail that day.

Some lefties say playing it with the stylus in the right hand is fine or using the ABXY is fine, but I needed the analog stick. The game became much more enjoyable once I had the circle pad pro.

metafaniel

#23

metafaniel said:

@Burning_Spear HAHA Did I said something weird?? Maybe my english fail there? HEHE My natal language it's spanish so I didn't notice any problem there hoho. What I tried to say was I even don't need the stylus to play, I can use my own fingers to play while I travel hehe

hydeks

#24

hydeks said:

I agree with sakurai that the stylus is the idea way to play it properly. There is an option to use the face buttons to aim but that just shows WHY the stylus control was there focus for this game.

Mandoble

#25

Mandoble said:

With dual stick they can always fire to the closest enemy to the aiming center, or is that with KI we are supposed to be snippers? For me trying to play with the stylus while holding the console with a single hand and with the 3D effects enabled is simply impossible, and if I'm supposed to play over a desk with the stand then the game is not designed for a handheld system. The picture with the stand says it all.

DestinyMan

#26

DestinyMan said:

With all the control options offered to play around with, there should be no excuse for someone complaining about the controls. They do take getting used to, but you should have it down after Chapter 2 or 3. Kid Icarus Uprising is a fast-paced game, and it takes tight controls to get a hold on things.

Onett

#27

Onett said:

@tat2

You can browse through your abilities by pressing left or right on the D-Pad and hit down on the D-Pad to activate it.

CowLaunch

#28

CowLaunch said:

Great insight. I personally love the controls. It's possible that I didn't have much trouble learning them as I don't play FPS that much, and wasn't used to double stick controls. The controls for the first Smash Bros, in particular the jumping, was weird to begin with. For me, Kid Icarus is a great use of the 3DS control scheme.

Lalivero

#29

Lalivero said:

My complaint is that it takes a lot getting used to as a lefty, wasn't near as accurate aiming with my right hand and it just had this awkward feeling('swapped' hands and held my stylus in my left while picturing the Circle Pad on my right, since I don't have a CPP, and it felt like it'd work much better for a game like this).

The game has CPP support, doesn't it? I'm thinking of ordering one for anything in the future it might feel better with anyways. As of now, even though it's still fun, it's a nightmare to play in multiplayer with this awkward feel of controls. Switching the directions to the buttons isn't cutting it, makes it worse actually.

Katernity

#30

Katernity said:

i have gotten used to the controls and I like them now. however, the only way I can comfortably play it is by using the 3ds stand at my desk or dining room table, which seems a little ridiculous to me since 3ds is supposed to be a portable console.

CosmoXY

#31

CosmoXY said:

I got used to the controls pretty quickly and have really enjoyed the game. I think KIU is really a jewel in the 3DS' crown.
EDIT: I've never used the stand, never even took it out of the box.

PixelatedPixie

#32

PixelatedPixie said:

So he's basically saying that if playing Uprising hurts your hands you're playing it wrong? What complete and utter arrogance. Uprising is ill-suited to the platform and it's control scheme is imprecise (having a character dash around like a smash bros character does not work in 3D, not the mention the unintuitive camera controls) and uncomfortable (at least for many people if not all). To blame players for this problem is arrogance of the highest order.

CosmoXY

#33

CosmoXY said:

@Mardt No, it sounds like you ARE playing it wrong. I don't have any of the problems you're talking about.

bofis

#35

bofis said:

I completely agree with them, the stylus aiming is great and I wish StarFox64 3D had an option to use the stylus aiming with independent dodging with the circle pad because after being Kid Icarus: Uprising, I am totally used to the controls and really love them for aiming, it is far more precise and fast than you could do with a right stick, it's more akin to aiming using a mouse, which is to say: great.

AbuJaffer

#36

AbuJaffer said:

@Mardt Calling someone arrogant when you're being a plain ass is just a tad ironic...

I didn't have any problems with the controls at all, and I currently play it every day on my hour and a half commute (3 hours total). Takes a while to adjust to the rumbling of the bus but once I did I was completing chapters on 9.0 like a pro.

BenAV

#38

BenAV said:

@Mardt That's right, you're doing it wrong.
I've been playing this game for over 100 hours with no control problems or hand cramps whatsoever.
I use the standard controls and I don't use a stupid stand.
I just play it properly, which a lot of people don't seem to do.
It's really not that hard!

But hey, if people have that much of a problem, then they can just miss out.

Aqueous

#39

Aqueous said:

I love the stylus controls, they are really well done and work fantastically.

CosmoXY

#40

CosmoXY said:

@Mardt And another thing, it's fine not to like a certain game or type of game. There a plenty of games I've never gotten into because I didn't like the controls, the design, the story, or whatever. If you don't like the game, nobody would blame you for putting it down and moving on. But to get all mad about it and balst the dev, that's not cool.

kyuubikid213

#41

kyuubikid213 said:

I personally love both sets of controls, but for different purposes.

I use the stylus controls for the on-rails flying segments because it is easier to survive and aim.

I use the ABXY face buttons to rotate the camera on the ground segments because to me the layout is similar to that of other third-person shooters (such as BattleFront and Tomb Raider) so using a "dual analog" option made more sense.

I did like how Sakurai-san decided to keep the touch-screen controls no matter what control option you choose. That was a nice touch.

Remonx

#42

Remonx said:

For those of you about controls I'm playing ABXY-R, for moving and shooting. The stylus to me is too much work. I adopted this from RE:M that was the best playing option oh btw I kick most of the times online, you can't always win.

kyuubikid213

#43

kyuubikid213 said:

Actually, I also experience no discomfort using either set of controls.

For maximum comfort, I use the CPP, but I use the right-handed controls. I switch the right-handed shooting button to the R button so I can use ZL to shoot. I am also able to use my pinky to hold onto the right side of the now CPP bulked system in order to have two hands holding the system.

PixelatedPixie

#44

PixelatedPixie said:

@Duney - I'm certainly not playing it wrong. I actually played Uprising exactly as mr Sakurai suggests. I think it's great that you along with many people don't have the issues I describe, but sufficient people do that you must at least acknowledge it as an issue with the game. Even if Mr Sakurai is correct and all those people who have experienced discomfort with the control scheme are simply using the controls incorrectly, surely the responsibility for that error still lies with the designer for not conveying how the game should be played. In any case, I don't think that's true. In my personal opinion (and that's all it is) I think the control inputs are poorly designed.

@AbuJaffer - Calling someone an ass is...well. being kind of an ass. Ironic. Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway, I'm not trying to be an ass, but I really do think that Nintendo's approach to controls this generation has been incredibly arrogant and this is just one such example. Metroid: Other M, DKCR, Uprising. These are all examples of games where Nintendo had ample opportunity to either address control problems with alternatives or to design around certain issues and they chose not to. And yes, blaming players for valid complaints is, I think, incredibly arrogant.

@BenAV - As someone who has played acoustic guitar and ukulele for about 12 years I can tell you my hands are as strong and as dexterous as most, and although I wouldn't say that I had discomfort throughout my experience with Uprising I would say that it felt perpetually...well awkward. I was constantly having to adjust my grip, often trying to prop the system on the right side (the hand I was using the stylus with) with my palm, my knee, a loose finger. It just wasn't a fun experience for me, especially when trying to enjoy the fabulous 3D graphics.

@Duney - It's not a question of not liking a certain type of game. In fact, I've been the biggest Treasure fan for years, with Sin & Punishment and it's sequel being considered among my favourite games. Uprising had the potential to be up there with them. That's partially why I find the control problems with Uprising so frustrating, because I can appreciate that there's a good game there, but it's sorely undermined by a lack of thought and care when it came to user experience.

I'm not mad about it in the slightest. Despite my issues with game I feel I got enough enjoyment out of the game to warrant the purchase. Weirdly though, quite a lot of that enjoyment came from the visuals, story and characters. I say that's weird because normally I'm sold on a game by it's gameplay and, yes, it's controls.

Anyway, it seems to me that people seem to get mad when Mr Sakurai is criticised or called arrogant. So I'll just shut up now. For the record though I kind of hate Smash Bros and Kirby, so...there's that.

Dashtag

#45

Dashtag said:

Thought it was easy to pick up and play anytime, I got used to the controls prety fast, even for being left handed.

TimboBaggins

#46

TimboBaggins said:

I love the stylus style aiming and I have no issue with that. However, I hate having to hold down the shoulder button while using the joystick at the same time. Its my LEFT hand that cramps up during gameplay. I have no complaints about the stylus at all, it works great for aiming.

JohnDoe123

#48

JohnDoe123 said:

My only issue with thenstylus control is that the sensitivity at max is too slow for me. I would have appreciated more dynamic sensitivity options.

PokeTune

#49

PokeTune said:

I really can`t use the stylus controls however,I am perfectly comfortable using the abxy buttons to move the reticle.

tat2

#50

tat2 said:

@Onett I know that, but then I can't move since my thump isn't on the circle pad and it takes ages to find the right one. And I have to look at the touch screen no matter what so I don't see the action.
I'm surprised that I seem to be the only one having this problem.

I personally don't have a problem with the other controls, though.
What this game needs is a real tutorial. Modern games have the annoying habit to throw you in the middle of the action and only then explain what to do.
Videos aren't enough, they should be interactive.

EvisceratorX

#51

EvisceratorX said:

I've honestly never had any problems at all with the controls and I agree with Sakurai. For the style of this game, there is no other control scheme that would've worked without sacrificing the gameplay. People just aren't playing it right if the control scheme seems horrendous to them. Though I will admit it's a steep learning curve, you should have a rudimentary grasp of it by chapter 3.

Arehexes

#52

Arehexes said:

I refuse to agree with a developer who won't even give the option, and I'm a leftie I had to use the face buttons for ground fights cause it was just getting nuts to hold and control. Also if a game requires you to use a stand to make it easier to control,FIX THE CONTROLS. Also great job show casing that CPP so people would want to buy it nintendo.

ouroborous

#53

ouroborous said:

No matter what Sakurai says, it would have been technically easy to add CPP analog control for aiming, they already had aiming via the buttons instead of the stylus built-in to the game, and they already added CPP support solely for Left-Handed players.
It really sounds like they were just lazy first of all and couldn't get it done in time for release (not like it didn't already take a million years to release the game after the 3DS came out, it should have been a Launch Title to begin with...).
Secondly, they apparently think that DS games HAVE to have some kind of stylus controls, even if it's a detriment to the gameplay, which is dead wrong. Options are always good, and smooth and easy gameplay is the most important factor. I actually bought a CPP primarily for the purpose of using it with this game, so much for that idea. Luckily, the CPP is indispensable for use with Res Evil and Metal Gear. Those games both prove how much better Icarus would have been with CPP support.
Finally, there is no reason they couldn't release a patch (optional if necessary to keep everyone happy) so that the game can be played with dual analog controls. I sure hope that happens, but I'm not going to bother pining for it.
Oh and by the way, though I did get used to the stylus aiming control, it's still a horrible idea and gives me wicked-awful cramps in my arms that don't go away for days after I play the game for any amount of time.
It's a great game all in all, (even if it's obviously just Space Harrier with an Icarus skin on it), but the control scheme is a SERIOUS detraction from overall quality and satisfaction.

WingedSnagret

#54

WingedSnagret said:

I've honestly never had a problem with the control setting. At first I thought the cramping thing was only with large-handed people, but I have rather large ones myself, so I guess its different for everyone. Of course it also may be that I always rest the 3DS on my leg or table... But even then I never had a single cramping episode.

BenAV

#55

BenAV said:

@ouroborous I have Revelations and Snake Eater and I use the CPP for both, but that doesn't change the fact that CPP controls for Kid Icarus would have been TERRIBLE.

There is no possibly way it could have ever been as fast and accurate as the stylus controls, it just wouldn't work for a game like this.
If you ask me, they shouldn't have even bothered adding in the face button option, they should have just forced people to play the game how it's meant to be played and if they don't like it, then don't play it.
Amazing game, PERFECT controls, 10/10.

Rapadash6

#56

Rapadash6 said:

The controls are a huge barrier, whether or not you're using them as intended. If you have to play in a specific way, and have it explained by the creator that you're doing it wrong, that's just poor design. I love the game, but I can't agree with the choices made on the touch screen control scheme.

crazyj2312

#57

crazyj2312 said:

I just put the system in the base of my left palm and hold the system in that hand, using the stylus with my right. I personally don't have a problem with the controls but that's just me.
As far as dual analog controls, I think it could work, but the sensitivity of the circle pad would have to be way up to get the kind of accuracy you get using the stylus.

CanisWolfred

#58

CanisWolfred said:

From what I'm reading here, the problem isn't that they're impossible, it's that the 3DS didn't come with Dual Analogue built in, so online matches would become a factor of whoever shelled out extra money for the add-on. That's...actually not a bad excuse, if you ask me.

DarkKirby

#59

DarkKirby said:

Smash Bros. Brawl's issue was the developers intentionally put in anti competitive mechanics to discourage people from playing the game competitively. People played it competitively anyway.

The main issue with the controls in Kid Icarus is the "slide to turn quickly" mechanic. The stylus should just let you rotate freely as if you were playing a first person game on the PC.

Linkuini

#60

Linkuini said:

On the one hand, I didn't have much of an issue with the controls. In fact, I played through the whole game and didn't take out that plastic stand even once.

On the other hand, telling players they're "playing it wrong" or that they "don't get it" is still terrible form.

ramstrong

#61

ramstrong said:

It took me a few weeks to get used to the controls. It did hurt my hand, and I had to do short burst of play session in the beginning. It gets better. It gets even better with AutoFire option on. Now? I can just move using circle pad, shoot by moving stylus. Use buttons for power from time to time. I'm having a blast with it, and I do it without using the stand!

I'm having trouble accepting the fact that the control is faulty when everything else is so brilliant. So, I analyzed it. I come to the conclusion that at the highest level (level 8-9), you need to have the stylus control. The circle pad is just not quick enough. I applaud Sakurai for bravely implement the control as-is, knowing that there will be lashbacks. The dual control scheme will actually be a handicap at the highest levels, thus represent false hill.

It is the reason why I don't enjoy StarFox. From designer point-of-view, Kid Icarus beats Star Fox for maximum audience suitability. It does need a new control scheme to go along with it. Yes, you need to get used to the control. They say that a lot because, well, YOU need to get used to the control.

I agree with Sakurai-san. If you force normal controls, you will have to make sacrifices to game play. I'm not convinced even aiming with gyroscope Resident Evil style will be suitable. The main problem, of course, is when you combine the view and shooting into one stylus operation. Maybe someday we'll have buttons for legs (or third arm), but until then, this will have to do.

In case you missed it, there is a tremendous range of difficulty in that game! From personal point of view, I actually sit back and relax with the game. Left hand=Circle pad. Right hand=stylus. Buttons? No buttons. Don't need it, except rarely when using powers.

Henmii

#62

Henmii said:

Technically impossible?! He probably just meant that there was not enough time left. I don't think they wanted to delay the game even more!

Well, I can live with the controls. Just make sure that you don't play to long, and everything is fine!

Mulder1617

#63

Mulder1617 said:

I tried the circle pad pro the first time and it was bulky. I was dumb enough to return it and then end up buying it again. Both times my wrist was totally screwed up and in pain. I could barely hold the stylus either way. Adjusting the level and speed, etc. of the stylus didn't help me either. So, I tried moving with the A,X,B,Y buttons and that worked for awhile along with the stylus and once again my wrist was a wreck. Setting up the cross button, left, or right shoulder button to use powers is a pain too because you like have to stop right in the middle of battle to push whatever button you had mapped to use the power and end up getting pummeled. I tried fighting online and got my butt kicked every time most likely by right handed people. Movement was just too intense in battle against other players and left handers are left getting the shaft.

WaxxyOne

#64

WaxxyOne said:

I think the core of his message was delivered best when talking about the reception of Super Smash Bros. and how people were afraid that the things about it that weren't the same as other beat-em-ups wouldn't be received well. To the contrary, the game did exceptionally well, revolutionized the genre and spawned a successful game series. But to get there, you have to take that risk, try something that hasn't been done and sometimes you have to ignore the people saying it'll never work.

Whether Kid Icarus' control scheme is "revolutionary" or not is up for debate; however, the development team clearly felt that to provide the type of interface they wanted to use, they needed to adopt a new control style to support it. I'm sure they could have come up with a way to use dual analogs, but then they would then have to fully support it, and that might mean cutting things back to support more generic control styles. I'd rather have them keep trying new things even if it sometimes leads to a game where the controls might not quite work the best, because that method sparks innovation and creativity — concepts that are often foreign to die-hard fans of the HD consoles. When Call of Duty 17 is coming out, adding nothing but maps and guns to the existing formula, we'll hopefully still be getting titles with new and untested concepts, and that's the core of what I love about Nintendo.

Sakura_Moonlight2421

#65

Sakura_Moonlight2421 said:

Practice makes perfect. I recently got wifi in my home and have been practicing with online players. :3 My forte is sniping with any long range weapon.

Birdman

#66

Birdman said:

Never had any problems, and I've only used the stand like once or twice. I've found that it helps to use (and have in general) a Nyko Power Grip (but, caveat emptor, using the shoulder buttons with that thing takes some time to get used to).

Adam

#67

Adam said:

It's certainly not technically impossible. Obviously other shooters do it. Maybe it would have been worse — I would say undoubtedly — but it would have worked for those who can't get used to touch. They tried to offer button aiming, so what is the excuse for dual analog? Why are crappy button controls technically possible despite speed issues when another circle pad from CPP isn't? I'm glad touch is in, and I have mostly gotten used to it, but wish dual was an option. If the circle pad were set to high sensitivity, the frantic pace would not be that much of an issue. As it is, I find staves completely unplayable due to the controls, and don't ask me what's going on with melee combat, though that's less a controls issue.

A lot of users are trying to shout down anyone with criticisms because apparently if they don't have issues then everyone else is stupid, a jerk, or "doing it wrong," but the fact is a lot of people have issues with the game, and control options would not have hurt anyone here. I've gotten used to the controls mostly (it helps that Babel Club doesn't exactly require a sniper's precision), but I still find vertical aiming difficult and when I need to turn around, it is up to the fates where I end up facing.

One of the benefits of dual analog would have been the potential for easier access to our spells through button mapping. As it is, I refuse to use more than four spells (and would prefer three but find I need all four of my current ones right now) because sorting through them is too clumsy.

PixelatedPixie

#70

PixelatedPixie said:

I have to agree with @Adam. The amount of people who have issues with the controls and the fact that a peripheral was included to facilitate the default scheme for me seems to demonstrate that there are fundamental issues with how the game controls. I appreicate that there are those out there who don't have issues with the controls, but there needs to be similar recognition that a significant proportion of players have had problems with the controls. This is not an issue that can be chalked up to people holding the system or controlling the game incorrectly.

DraculaX

#71

DraculaX said:

@Adam If that were to happen then fighting games would be a joke and incredibly boring. Not saying that SSB is not fun, but there is a difference between fighters and brawlers.

BulbasaurusRex

#72

BulbasaurusRex said:

I personally love the default control scheme. I've always hated dual analog controls, anyway.

I am restricted to only being able to play with the stand, as the 3DS is just too heavy to keep lifting from one side with my non-dominant left hand, and there's no reasonable way to use my right hand for both stylus aiming and getting a reasonable grip on the other side of the system at the same time. However, playing with the stand works very well, and it's not that hard to find places to set it down. The only problem is when the table/desk/whatever is too low and hurts my back after a while.

TysonOfTime

#73

TysonOfTime said:

This is what shows the inferiority of lesser nerds. A gamer that can't adapt is a gamer left to die.
...Except with iDevices. That's a devolution there.

In all seriousness, I've never even bothered to take the stand out. All you people who really have issues with the controls I deeply pity. Because this game is absolutely amazing. But then again, hey, if pain will stop you from doing what you love, don't do it. I pity, but I don't sympathize. After all, I don't share your pain.

GreenDream

#74

GreenDream said:

I think the CPP and "stand" add-ons are unnecessary wastes of resources. All Nintendo needed to do was update and improve the old DS phat "Thumb stylus", which they could do using the existing CPP wrist strap. Using the touch screen as an alternative "analog substitute" has interesting potential.

Also, I think if Nintendo's hardware engineers had removed the traditional 4 face buttons, then created a modified 2nd analog "circle pad", which would map commands similarly to PC controllers (such as the Logitech Dual Action), lefties would be honored and less contortion of the hands would be needed.

Nintendo had a chance to introduce some great ergonomic strides with the 3DS, and they blew it.

GreenDream

#75

GreenDream said:

Just for the record, I have played KI:U for about 13 hours game time, and have tried: holding the 3DS while using the stylus, using the stand while using the stylus, using the face buttons or d-pad for movement/aiming, and holding the 3DS while using my right thumb with the old DS phat "thumb stylus".

By far, using the "thumb stylus" was the most comfortable and ergonomically-inclined option for me...yet, because of the face buttons, lefties would get the shaft.

Honestly, Sakurai-san couldn't do much about this situation by himself- the hardware engineers were instructed to appeal to DS-owners, not to create a unique marvel of science.

MhicttheGamer

#77

MhicttheGamer said:

This is not a debate of which control scheme is better. This is a pointless debate over which control scheme you are ACCUSTOMED to. I've grown up with Nintendo and I obviously am inclined to the default controls. Hand me a Wii? No problem. An Xbox 360 or PS3? Don't expect me to be mastering it anytime soon. I just got the Xbox 360 and still have trouble with it after 2-3 months. Kid Icarus's controls? 20 minutes tops. What you are used to you are more inclined to adapt towards, and you are more likely to reject of foreign scheme. Personally, I agree with Sakurai-san that if you are feeling pain (unless you're a lefty, where I can understand where you're coming from) you are doing it wrong, but that wasn't a very polite way to put it. However, it can be justified since huge reviewers such as IGN and GameInformer have been bashing this game strictly on the controls. Sakurai-san and his team spent loads of time developing this control scheme, which as a novice programmer I am amazed by the intelligence of, and the only thing these professional reviewers can say about it is "It feels uncomfortable, therefore it sucks." I could see them annoyed with the controls. I could see them annoyed with AR card distribution (which I was, not them surprisingly), but the control scheme was one of Sakurai-san's masterpieces, and all that these people would say about it was that they simply didn't like it. Now, GameInformer did use language such as "physical pain" and "chronic stress," and if you are seriously having so much trouble holding the light-weight 3DS with one hand you either have horrible wrists or you are in fact doing it wrong. Very little is wrong with this and I am tired of people bashing a game for something so minor as minor discomfort.
PS: @Koto : Nice.

MhicttheGamer

#78

MhicttheGamer said:

@Henmii : "Technically Impossible" means that it would require the team to add a second set of control code specifically for the Circle Pad Pro, which basically means re-writing the game's mechanics. Like I said before, I am a novice programmer. That isn't fun. At all. It is time consuming, energy draining, and money wasting for something that, in my opinion, doesn't really need or should be fixed. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

@DarkKirby : Actually, that kind of motion would require the player to lift the stylus and then place it back down to aim somewhere else. This would lead to a lot of broken screens.

@Mardt : Since we have to provide Wheelchairs to people who can't walk, does that mean there is a fundamental problem with walking? It is simply an aid for those who may need a bit of added comfort. It is a very stressful game.

@Adam : This is no regular shooter. This is somewhat revolutionary. Most shooters seem to have a focus on shooting and a bit of motion. This game has a focus on motion with a bit of shooting. This game has a focus on upgrading your weapons so you can focus more on dodging and puzzles and hidden secrets and less on shooting the actual enemies. On the rail sections, what am I mostly focused on? Dodging shots? On the ground, what am I mostly focused on? Looking around, getting acheivements and the like.

@GreenDream : If I had both hands on my 3DS while playing this game, I'm afraid I'd rip the thing in two with the rage I feel.

Overall: my final point is that you need to play the way you feel most comfortable, but don't rip on the game when the default controls aren't to your liking.

luminalace

#79

luminalace said:

While I see where he is coming from, I don't agree with him! OK so dual analog players may be disadvantaged against stylus players but that's a choice we could have got to make ourselves! ON COD on Wii, Wii mote players go up against classic controller users and there are people who say they dominate with either!

Mandoble

#80

Mandoble said:

In fact my biggest issue is not the controls, but the controls + the 3D effect ON + holding the 3DS with my hand, that 3D sweet spot was gone most of the time. Aside of this, personally I cannot find anything about this game outstanding or amazing, not even the dialogs which are localized in English only.

onlyaman

#81

onlyaman said:

Sounds like dual analogue wasn't impossible at all, but that Sakurai-San felt a moral prerogative not to include it. I mean, after all, they implemented an option for aiming with the face buttons- dual analogue would take very little time to program with that already in place. His comments strike me as defensive and even a touch arrogant, but in the end it was his game and his decision to make. Yes he is correct that the stylus can offer more speed and precision to a skilled user, but why not offer all control options and let the gamers decide what to use? This would have netted the game a broader acceptance, and those who really wanted to push their skills with the game would use the stylus aiming anyway.

Terave

#82

Terave said:

@Mandoble I play with 3D Effect + stylus controls + holding in my hand without a problem. Finding the sweet spot is not that much of a problem either. So maybe you're doing something wrong?

Slapshot

#83

Slapshot said:

I've just recently found the time to pick the game up, and I take issue with the controls as well. In flight, the stylus works wonderfully, but on the ground, they're unintiutive and frustrating. I've played through the hand cramps with Metroid DS, but I'm pretty much done with this one, simply because of the controls.

For the record, the exact same argument was raised when Killzone 3 merged Move vs DualShock 3 controls against eachother in online multiplayer. Both control methods have their pros and cons, and the competition only grew in intensity because of Move's integration.

eviLaTtenDant

#84

eviLaTtenDant said:

Yes, the controls in Uprising aren't perfect. In ground battles i sometimes can't pull off a sprint when i want to. The camera isn't a big help during close melee attacks. Changing your ability when you don't want to and being unable to pull off the quick dodges in flight battles isn't too nice either.
I don't know if they could have been better with a bit more fine tuning. But i'm quite sure they would not have been there in a Wii version of the game. An analogue stick and a flick of the Nunchuck to dodge in the air would have made quite a difference here imo. It wouldn't have been as fast as with the Stylus and item usage would have been more complicated though.

So in the end i have slight problems with the controls but still think they complement the gameplay nicely enough.

Remonx

#86

Remonx said:

For righties complaining about pain try this setup: move with circle pad move reticle with abxy and r to shoot reticle speed fast. I found no discomfort just a lil getting used to in this setup. I mastered this this after chapter one.

Onett

#87

Onett said:

@tat2

I guess I've gotten comfortable enough with my set of power ups to take a quick glimpse down and navigate it in less than a second during battle haha. Though I can understand your frustration.

I've never had a problem with the camera seeing as how tapping the L-Trigger (in my control scheme) automaticly adjusts the camera to whatever your character is facing. That is the way I have mine set up.

Circle Pad: Move
ABXY: Aim Reticle
L Trigger: Fix Camera
R Trigger: Attack
D Pad: Powers

I often find myself using the tip of my right thumb on the touch screen to aim and adjust my camera during gameplay while still being able to keep my index finger on the R Trigger to attack. Keep in mind that I also adjusted the sensitivity to make it work to my liking. I'm almost tempted to post a video to show my control scheme and method of play.

BulbasaurusRex

#88

BulbasaurusRex said:

@Remonx That's just an even worse version of stupid dual analog controls. Using the stand is worth it to be able to use the much superior default control scheme.

@MichttheGamer It's not just the wrist pain. It's also really hard trying to hold the system steady with just one hand, which is very important for such a fast paced game that relies so much on stylus control.

DrDaisy

#89

DrDaisy said:

@TheNintendOtaku I don't care if you think my excuse is adequate or not. I don't like steering using motion controls and I won't waste money on a game that gives me no other option. I've given motion-control steering plenty of tries and I've only ended up hating it more.

Henmii

#90

Henmii said:

@MhicttheGamer,

While I don't want to doubt your words (I don't know anything about programming. I am just a gamer), I think it's more because of the looming deadline, + that they really thought their controls where the best. But if so many people from the press complained about it, you should be a man and say: We go the extra mile and also offer dual analogue control! That's what I think anyway!

JRJalapeno

#91

JRJalapeno said:

Using the stylus kills my hand and nintendos thumb stylus wasn't great but I found an awesome new ring stylus at http://www.txtrng.com/. It' amazing and it needs to be packed in with every game and system. It's that good. Perfect for kid Icarus. You can comfortably hold the system with both hands. I told the developer to give one to Nintendolife for review. I actually bought 4 so I have them incase they ever go out of business! I can't believe Nintendo the king of innovation didn't think of it first. $30 bucks for two may seem high but worth every penny IMHO.

bowkid50

#92

bowkid50 said:

Well I think it would have been better if they included the analog buttons anyway. I mean like really i play modern warfare 3 on my 3DS all the time, and when I play with my friends they use stylus but, I use analog controls and are still better then them.

MhicttheGamer

#93

MhicttheGamer said:

@BulbasaurusRex Tell me, how do YOU play the game? Sorry, what I mean is that I'm curious as to how you play. I play sitting down in an office chair and the worst I get is numbness.

@DrDaisy : What do you mean by Motion control? Gyroscope or Stylus? The stylus isn't technically "motion control", if that were true, the mouse is "motion control".

@Slapshot I keep hearing the word "unintuitive". I don't see how it is not. The stylus in the same as a mouse in theory.

@onlyaman How is this moral? How does morality play into this at all?

MhicttheGamer

#94

MhicttheGamer said:

@Henmii Ok, here's the difference between the dual-analogue stick control and the stylus from a coding standpoint. With the way the stylus is set up is it will draw the reticule on screen and the reticule will move with a velocity based off of a proportion between the speed of the stylus and the sensitivity setting. If the reticule hits the edge of the screen the game will use the velocity of the reticule as added force to the camera's rotation, which requires quite a bit of trig. Then it will take the speed of the reticule once the stylus is removed and use a friction code to slow it down based upon the settings option. The dual analogue stick is much simpler, using the same principle but for a control stick. However, the trouble with it is that different times of the game require different speeds that the cursor must move, it would be much more difficult to use the control stick in opposition of the stylus where it moves at the player's speed, not a set velocity. Since there really isn't any effective way to adjust the speed in game, the control stick is in fact "technically impossible" to implement effectively without changing the game layout itself. Now, it's not as simple as going the extra mile, it is that the game itself would be impossible to complete with the game as a player when you can only move with a set velocity. Also, it isn't really fair to offer this option when the entire USA is sold out until the middle of the summer. Once the Circle Pad Pro is more accessible, it could be patched in, but I doubt it.

Korbin64

#95

Korbin64 said:

The game is perfect as it is, and is actually easier to play than Metroid Prime: Hunters (my pick for best DS game ever created).

shinesprite

#96

shinesprite said:

Within the last week, I've gotten used to stylus controls and I see how dual-analogue would be a problem. If you don't believe me, trying playing through Portal/2 both ways and tell me how it works out.

Was_Loved

#97

Was_Loved said:

I really enjoy this game it's challenging and fun. And I've noticed my left hand cramps up seriusly bad from working the L Button and Circle Pad while holding up the system. Because of this I can only play one level at a time even when I want to play more. I bought the Circle Pad Pro accesory because the game says it is compatible, I thought my problem was fixed but It just does the same as the regular Circle Pad :( . And maybe the touch screen could be faster than the other controls but I really would choose to be slower so that I wouldnt be in pain while playing the game. Mario Kart got a patch so I know they could give Kid Icarus one because it is newer than Mario Kart. And if it already has alternate options what is the harm in adding more? It can only make people happy because you know everyone is different and diiferent controls are better suited to different people.

UnseatingKDawg

#98

UnseatingKDawg said:

I think the control scheme of Circle Pad for movement, L Button for firing, and Touch Screen for aiming using the 3DS Stand is a great setup. My hand almost never cramps, and the 3D is excellent from the angle.

LuigiTheGreenFire

#99

LuigiTheGreenFire said:

I disagree with Sakurai so much. I have played Super Smash Bros. and the controls work great (granted I am using a GCN controller on VC).

The only thing I would imagine being a problem playing on the N64 would be the analog stick in the middle, though that was the problem with every N64 game.

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