News Article

Microsoft's Ken Lobb: Metroid Prime Wouldn't Have Been Made If Nintendo Had Listened To The Fans

Posted by Damien McFerran

"Every once in a while, you have to learn to not listen"

Ken Lobb is now employed as Creative Director of Microsoft Studios, but Nintendo fans will recall that he was a big part of the firm back in the days of SNES and N64 — heck, he even had the "Klobb" gun in Rare's GoldenEye 007 named after him.

Before he departed Nintendo in 2001, Lobb was involved in the production of Metroid Prime for the GameCube, and in a recent interview with EDGE magazine, he reveals the kind of resistance that was encountered from the fansa2 to the new direction the series was taking:

The fight, in the pre-internet world, was that we were getting a lot of pressure from fans. Nowadays, you'd be buried under Twitter, NeoGAF — both of which I love, by the way — but those voices are even louder today than they were back then. It comes back to a lesson I learned a long time ago: always listen to your customer, but also understand that if you do focus testing what you're going to hear is, "I want that thing you did last time, because that was awesome." Every once in a while, you have to learn to not listen to that and go, "Actually, Metroid in firstperson we think could make more sense." Great creatives are going to disrupt their earlier designs and make things that are new, or build completely new games or new genres.

Keeping with the Metroid theme, Lobb also reveals that one of the games he is most pleased about being involved with is Super Metroid, although he readily admits that his input was minimal at best:

Super Metroid is one of the games I'm most proud of, but I didn't have that much to do with it, other than playing it and making suggestions. And bingo: I ended up in the credits. That was super-awesome. I'm a huge Metroid fan.

More recently, Lobb has helped Double Helix reboot Killer Instinct for Xbox One, another famous game from his time at Nintendo. Some eyebrows were raised when it was confirmed that original developer Rare wasn't in charge, but Lobb explains that his own involvement ensured that at least some of the original DNA was included:

Double Helix gave us their best pitch for Killer Instinct and that was a prototype that was playable. I was deeply involved in Killer Instinct 1 and 2 working at Nintendo with Rare. I designed the combo system and work closely with them on basically every character on the game and all the animations. It's an IP that I love dearly, both from the memories of working with those guys and also because it's kind of fun to go to the arcade and win a lot. I was able to bring some of that back.

Let us know what you think about Lobb's comments by posting a comment below.

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User Comments (99)



erv said:

This man is so right I want to hug him. The best games are the ones no one wanted and everyone loves. The games people say they want will always be second class citizens.

It is not up to the fans to know what they want. It is up to them to enjoy what is being made. The fans exist because of the creative outing in the first place.



dizzy_boy said:

While I'd be inclined to agree, Nintendo's current mind set has been making me think otherwise.



AltDotNerd said:

If Microsoft had listened to fans, we wouldn't have the Kinect. That's a prime example of why companies SHOULD listen to fans.



Dreamz said:

I'm in agreement with Ken. Players suffer from extreme tunnel vision. They think that what they like is what everyone will like, which as we all know simply isn't true. And at the end of the day, a player is just a person with an opinion and the potential to buy your product. They generally don't have a clue about how software development works, and game theory is classified in the same box to them as rocket science.
While they should keep an ear to their players to make sure they understand what the player wants. In the case of Metroid, it was more the gameplay style and not just the 2D platforming style (even though that was important, too).



Marshi said:

Ken lobb is so right its almos. Painful to see how many people will disagree with his view. Let me put it into perspective for any doubters : if you listen to fans all the time you get Games like Resident evil 6. Nuff said



Artwark said:

I guess in some ways, Ken is right. Sometimes if you want to be creative, you just need to change something that you wished that it could work. But this doesn't always work.

Take Sonic for example. People wanted a Sonic game like generations and colors and proved how Sonic can work in the modern gaming until the release of Lost World and the upcoming Sonic Boom. Sega can reborn Sonic by just rehashing the speed they did with Colors and Generations until fans get very tired of the same thing and that's a good thing.

Its like the New Super Mario Bros series, many people tend to think its boring but its still a fine series overall.



Ony said:

Other M was made because Sakamoto wanted it, not the fans.

And that was a poor decision.



FluttershyGuy said:

I understand what he's saying, and game makers should follow their own hearts, and see a vision through! Some all-time greats, such as Prime, have been made as a result!

However, with each passing year, I feel Nintendo becomes more and more deaf to it's fans, and gives less and less of what we want. Going only by the wishes of fans would kill innovation in gaming. To generally ignore them isn't good business either.

It's ironic to read this article at a time when Nintendo is ignoring the pleas of fans to make ANY new Metroid game (plus Star Fox & F-Zero)! You can't make everybody happy all of the time, but you can try to make some people happy some of the time! I'd love to see any new Metroid right now.

Maybe high-heeled Zero Suit Samus in Smash will revive Metroid interest, lol!



Goginho said:

Read the heading and I agree. Don't listen to consumers / fans. Because that can be overwhelming and therefore amount to a lack of freedom and creativity that the developer initially has. They're also under pressure, trying to please everyone's demands, which is totally impossible. At the end of the day, maybe just take a select few that you might come across, that seem intellectual enough and well thought-through to begin with. Not the one-sentence suggestions that are just blurted out impulsively, because it was "cool" and what not.

I myself have always had suggestions, but I think them through and try to make something thoughtful out of it. In the end, I still end up pretty amazed by the production, despite not having anything of mine implemented into it. So hopefully, developers will continue to feel the freedom of creating games the way they are meant to be created, you know, the way it was back in the day, when the market was still young and where nobody really knew what to expect, but the devs made something that we ended up liking a lot, and thus gradually establiching fanbases. People constantly complaining today need to chill and reassess some things.



BestBuck15 said:

Nintendo are good at not listening as we know, which is good, sometimes. .

Funny the topic of Metroid Prime came up because I'm 8 hours into MP2 on Gamecube. All I have say is 'what a game'. I only played it once 10 years ago and didn't finish it. I can't remember a thing about it, so it is a total new adventure.

Anybody who had a Gamecube please play this.



electrolite77 said:

I agree to an extent. Good original ideas should be protected from complaining fans. The creative side of gaming needs its freedom to create.

There's a balance to be struck though. On the commercial side of things-pricing, online distribution, Retro IP management, developer relationships, customer relationships etc. listening to fans is a very good idea.



AlexSora89 said:

If all of this is just a way to say Nintendo's right to ignore the fans' demand to get the GBA VC on 3DS, I'm (if you forgive the pun) not buying it.

I know this is about Metroid Prime's development and about how not listening to the fans turning out to be a good thing, but if - in this very period of time, I mean - you talk about Nintendo not listening to the fans, the GBA Virtual Console on Wii U immediately comes to mind. So yeah.



alLabouTandroiD said:

If you're really passionate about being a dev you'll make something that hasn't been done before. Some day people will become tired of getting the same thing over and over again so gaming would be in a very hard place if it doesn't have something up its sleeve when that time arrives.
I'm not saying simple sequels that basically only evolve graphically don't have their place in the industry but there should be lots of new and breathtaking stuff as well.



hiptanaka said:

Ken is right, but Metroid Prime is a bad example for me, since I prefer the 2D Metroids by a margin.



YoshiTails said:

It's all context sensitive. Wind waker was a perfect example of ignoring fans producing something utterly brilliant. While A Link between worlds is great fan service.



dizzy_boy said:

I'm fine with Nintendo moving into other areas like the quality of life thing they're looking at. Let that be an internal R&D issue.
But what I don't understand is why on earth they don't get their external devs on to making new entries for their other IP's.
Donkey Kong returns is proof that it can be done. Punch Out wii and kid icarus uprising were two big hits in the hands of the 2nd party devs, and yet it's like they're totally irrelevant.
Miyamoto even admitted that he thought people were bored of F-Zero until somebody out the contrary, which just shows how little time they have for listening, or they just don't care.



MuchoMochi said:

@Marshi I don't think there was one fan of the Resident Evil franchise series that asked for the Resident Evil 6 that Capcom made, so that comparison is ridiculous.



kensredemption said:

I've been a loyal follower of Nintendo for decades and not once did I hype up expectations for anything they would make or develop. As a result, they've always been surprising me - and pleasantly so. It's kind of like watching a TV show: If you want things to turn out one way, it could compromise a lot of the universe. I get that Nintendo's trying to join the standard that MS and Sony set last-gen, but at the same time innovate gameplay. If the Wii U ended up being a PS3.5 or Xbox 540, I doubt I would've bothered with it. As far as I'm concerned, the Wii U is the only next-gen system.



unrandomsam said:

@Ony It should be what he wanted. Retro should have made the 4 other far more interesting sounding games they axed.



Xilef said:

He makes a great point. I would even say that the ideas we didn't know we wanted or even don't want very often makes for the best games. If they are well implimanted and made of course.



Whopper744 said:

Kind of like how everybody was crying when DKC:TF was announced, and I think it's the best Platformer in a long time.



Dyltheman said:

i can agree. wind waker, DKC TF, for examples are games that weren't asked for, for say, but ended up fairing quite well.



Marshi said:

Resident evil 5 split fans down the middle. Some wanted more online action gunplay,some wanted a return to the horror routes and a whole lot wanted more story on leon and wesker. As a result we got resi 6 was an amalgamation of all of the above. So in what way is my comparison ridiculous?



element187 said:

I'll agree with this statement. Most gamers have no idea what they want..... I see people begging for a brand new 2D Metroid on Wii U. Wtf can they do in 2D that the 3DS wouldn't be able to do?

That's kind of the point of having a console, to do things that are not possible on the portable, to have a grand experience. And you will not get a grand experience creating another 2D Metroid on a console. I'm all for getting a new 2D adventure on the 3DS. But not on Wii U. The console already has a glut of 2D games. No thanks.



Varoennauraa said:

And in addition, Due to the ever thickening astroturfing, the presence of the viewpoints, that are advantageous to your competitors is also stronger than ever, so listening forums is downright dangerous to your business.



Emaan said:

People complained about Metroid Prime and Wind Waker; look how acclaimed they are now. I say take more risks Nintendo, forget the fans



LAA said:

Er fair enough in a way, but I feel theres a difference between "once in a while" and "never."
Of course Metroid Prime (All of them in fact), ended up being great game, so glad they didn't listen to fans back then if it meant we'd never have got them.

Nintendo however have this trend lately to not listen to fans ever, which more annoys me more than anything. Espicially when what they're doing instead, doesnt make me like them more.
Game wise they can probably afford not to listen as they're proven kings in that area. Anything to do with consoles or software console wise, I think they need to have every possible ear open.



BakaKnight said:

Consumers/fans can provide a good feedback if you need to know how good is what you already did, but they are a terrible reference for test new ideas...
Keep working on old ideas is seen as "more of the same" while new things are "awful decisions that kill a franchise"; with opinions like those there is no room for doing anything, developpers would just stop making games if they listen to fans' opinions XD



LetsGoRetro said:


You say you're fine with it, so maybe you're more familiar with this QOL thing than me... What is it? To me it sounds more along a "casual" route, which would be the nail in the coffin for this company for me. Ya know, like, "a little mini game while you work out" "Keep track of your daily activities and goals app". That's what pops into my mind when I hear Quality of Life. What do you make of it?



ChessboardMan said:

Obviously you shouldn't always do what the fans want. There's a part in Bakuman, where the main characters, two young manga authors, decide to go through their fan mail for ideas, to give the fans what they want. Their editor looks at the results, and sees it for what it is, terrible.
However a big problem with games these days is that developers are listening to someone else, who has even worse ideas… Years ago I was working on an action horror title based on big movie Franchise. At one point, someone set up a test example of gameplay where what happened (whether a monster burst out of a wall, ceiling, or it was a false alarm, kind of thing) was randomly triggered. It worked pretty well. But we were told not to do it, even though it was pretty easy to do in our engine. Not because it was extra work for level designers and QA testers, or any other half logical reason, but because we were told that the monsters had to be in centre view when they attacked, and if they were coming from a random direction, then they wouldn't be, even though this Very Idea went against the whole idea of horror. This decision was partly made by the Franchise holders/publishers, though also by our lead creative director too I think, which is even more horrifying if you ask me.

However the Most horrifying thing is that sometimes publishers are making these truly terrible games of today, like the Freemium Dungeon Keeper, and truth be told, they're probably making more money than if they had made an actually Good game, so why should they bother?



Marshi said:

@MadJay1664 Thats what im getting at mate. Resi 6 was a result of devs trying to do what every fan wanted and as a result creating a mess that wasnt good in any department.



GN004Nadleeh said:

if that is how it works then nintendo i really want a health based system which i have to feed it carrots to play and instead of a vr mask that gives me peripheral vision and head tracking i want a non wearable device that moves my head for me and don't forget the the wireless issues of not using your microwave or flushing a toilet near by to cut connection



Marshi said:

@SahashraLA I could not have put that better myself. I am constantly moaning and wanting nintendo to make a new star fox,a new metroid. But to be fair I bought star fox 64 3ds and metroid other m and loved them too.
I really think the gaming industry is struggling and WE are the ones to blame. I dont blame capcom for making resi 6. I dont blame activision for making cod. Frankly they could care less what we moan about as long as they make money,which they do. But if devs keep on listening to hardcore fanboys they will bury themselves in a corner they cant get out of. Oh wait ive just described the wiiu! Its a hypocritical industry now where the only way to make money seems to be to make the same old game on an annual basis. And the very same fanboys that created this mess are the first ones to cry that nintendo are for casuals and dont make new ip's anymore



Nintenjoe64 said:

Twilight Princess sold more than Wind Waker and Skyward Sword so Nintendo were probably correct to pander to the fans who were after a 'darker' Zelda. The idiotic hipsters that pretend they've played every Mario, Metroid and Zelda just so they can sound credible when they hate on one particular entry in the series hold absolutely no power over what Nintendo choose next. People keep crying that game 'a' didn't sell well and will kill a franchise but that's not how Nintendo work. None of the Pikmins have sold well or made a success of their systems but they've tried 3 times. Nintendo have been very shy of completely new IP for Wii U so far but by Xmas they will only have Zelda left to make meaning there must be a chance for all those other IP. Nothing has sold well enough or sold enough systems to warrant a sequel so Nintendo will will have to revisit Star Fox, Metroid, Pilotwings etc or just try something new.



LztheQuack said:

I don't care about the mistakes. I don't want companies to bow down to fan demands. I guarantee you we will see the same dang games over and over again (even worse than now) if companies continue listening to fans. Also, fans typically don't agree with each other, so it's flat out impossible to listen to all of them in the first place.



TruenoGT said:

I agree 100% with Klobb, but it's a balancing act for sure. Retreating to older styles is a little of what's bugging me about recent game trends. For example, no doubt games in the DKC Returns series and NSMB series are solid titles, but I'm getting tired of this 2D platformer "renaissance" that's bolstered further by low budget indie titles. It's been a while since we've seen a true game changer like Virtua Fighter, Mario 64, Metroid Prime, Resident Evil, Ocarina of Time, Tomb Raider, GTA3, Wii Sports, Gran Turismo, Super Mario Kart, etc, etc, Games that really challenged the status quo or invented new genres altogether.



HylianJowi said:

@Damo "he reveals the kind of resistance that was encountered from the fansa2"

Just a minor typo, methinks.



LtAldoRaine said:

He's kind of right, but sometimes you just can't do whatever you want. Metroid Prime on the surface looked like it would completely move away from the standard Metroid gameplay, but when you play it you see it's a excellent, faithful transition to 3D that just so happens to be in first person. To me it's more of a true Metroid game than Other M is.



Wonder_Ideal said:

I'm certainly gald Ninty did not listen on that one. Metroid Prime is one of my favorite games, and it is absolutely brilliant. In fact, I'm replaying through it right now.



bezerker99 said:

Playing Metroid Prime is just a treat for me. It's still awesome to this day; the music, the atmosphere, the graphics, the HUD, Samus being bada**. I love how the game doesn't force you to read anything. You can play the entire game w/o having to be burdened by reading the story. If you want to read stuff, just scan stuff - but if you don't want to do that, it's cool. Lots of awesomeness can be found in Metroid Prime.



ultraraichu said:

I'm glad that there's developers that don't listen to the fans often. Fans are becoming more aggressive these days, feeling entitle to have their way in a game more so then the creators. Even if you give them something they want, they will still complain and disregard it with an excuse like Wii Sport with online play.



Minotaurgamer said:

Sometimes Nintendo shouldn't listen to their fans. I agree.

Case in point: the Wii and Wii U

Wii was a console that was giving nintendo a huge comeback to the lighspot but because Nintendo fanboys hated it they ditched their way and returned to the destructive Gamecube/N64 ways that fans love and adore. That's what made them create the atrocious Wii U. I hate when nintendo fanboys hate on the Wii U when the darn console WAS CREATED THANKS TO THEM

Most of times, fans are shortighted and selfish. Most of times, they don't care about no one but them. Mosy of times, is better ignore them for everybody's sake.



AugustusOxy said:

Which is whatever to me, because I would rather have a third person game over the first person game we got.

As good as the prime games were, I did like what the Other M did as far as concept, controls were awful, but the idea of a more action oriented, less 'slave to shooting' metroid game would be amazing.

A metroid game that handled like Beyonetta would be pretty much perfect.



Uro said:

There are also examples of very good games, where developers listened to fans... Bungie is an example, with the Halo franchise, where you can see the difference between Halo 4 and the previous titles. And it isn't true that fans tend not to be open to new things, in fact there's a lot of hype behind Destiny.
Beta testing is another good way to interact with fans, and see what doesn't work.
What I said counts most for multiplayer based games though.



Yorumi said:

@minotaurgamer aside from the lack of games which would affect any console design at this point what exactly is so wrong with it?

As for everyone else there's a tad bit of irony in most of the comments. In the interview Ken says "understand that if you do focus testing what you're going to hear is, "'I want that thing you did last time, because that was awesome.'" Which is funny cause the comments are doing exactly that, "don't listen to the fans and do what you did in the past, do this other thing you did in the past."

What he's saying, and there are a few comments pointing this out is that the fans don't always know what they want. Now you can't make a habit of always ignoring everything your fans say they want, but always listening to your fans leads to the kind of risk averse business model almost everyone is doing even nintendo to a large extent. It's a very difficult prospect because you have to essentially know what your fans want more than they themselves do and be able to sell that to the fans who think it's not what they want.

Making safe games isn't in an of itself a problem, what's been annoying me is nintendo doesn't seem to have any risky potential game changer in the works at all right now. X is pretty for example but it's just an upgraded xenoblade which again while pretty and containing a creative story gameplay wise is largely just an evolution of combat systems like crono trigger/cross. Mario kart was played perfectly safe, 3d world is safe, dkctf was safe, pikmin was safe, etc.



gage_wolf said:


How is the Wii U comparable to N64 or Gamecube? I would argue the problem with the Wii U is that it's too similar to the Wii, except a whole lot less elegantly put together (aka it's clunky). I don't think fanboys had anything to do with Nintendo's decision to make the Wii U, it was money. They wanted Wii sales again. Look at the current and slated 1st party releases for the Wii U and they almost mirror the successful games released for Wii... New Super Mario Bros., Wii Party U, Wii Fit U, Mario Kart, Smash Bros.



Lalivero said:

@LAA Agreed. It's obvious trying to please everyone will solve nothing, so they should just pick out ones that they feel could actually blend well with their intentions.

However, why do I smell an excuse to practically imply 'to hell with fan ideas'? It's shocking to see support in favor of basically tossing fan ideas, as a general thing, in the trash.



LAA said:

@Chriiis Welcome to pure Nintendo fans... ha ha.
I feel Nintendo is more...not caring about the core fans lately and its more about trying to attract everyone with their games/consoles. which most of the time, their games appeal to the core games anyway, so not too bad their, with consoles though, I think they're even giving the mass consumer little credit, acting like internet is still a new thing for example and the account system and etc. They have a lot to work to live up to even their standards, nevermind try and meet core gamers standards.



Darel18 said:

@Ony I have Metroid Prime and didn't like that much, felt like going from a good game (in my case, Metroid Fusion) to a normal one (like going from DK:C to DK 64).
When I saw Other: M, I knew that was what I was waiting for. But hey, that's me



Doma said:

@minotaurgamer You should know that 'fanboys' are cultists who love and praise Nintendo, no matter what. Any disregard to the WiiU being a perfect system will initiate anger within these folk, you see many examples of such behaviour on this website... They can't be the ones responsible for “hating on the atrocious Wii U”, lol.



Yorumi said:

@Doma it's rather easy to make broad generalizations about a phantom group to attack and insult them without any real specifications. It really just doesn't advance any discussion anywhere to go around attacking some group that probably doesn't exist.



SkywardLink98 said:

And then you get companies like Blizzard implementing always-online into all their games. Ignoring is good sometimes, but other times it's not the best thing.



Yorumi said:

@SkywardLink98 the main difference, and what is being said in this article, is when you ignore your fans to do something you think they will actually enjoy. When they remove things like offline from a single player game they arn't thinking about the fans they're thinking about themselves. In the case of creative new game ideas they're considering what might be fun not how they can squeeze their fans more.



Doma said:

@Dyltheman DKC TF is a terrible example, as it's a direct outcome of Nintendo appealing to the exact same fans as the previous DKC game/s. There's nothing fresh or creative about it.



Dreamcaster-X said:

I wouldn't say fans didn't want a 3D Metroid. I would say that they were hesitant of it because it was a considered a hard game to nail down in 3D but within seconds of playing it & doing the ball roll you knew they had succeeded but up until that moment yeah people were extremely nervous.



NathanVS said:

@Doma Yep because its level design wasn't fresh or creative at all. Its not like the area's surrounding affected the gameplay. Not to mention they brought back the buddy system from the past DKC games. Why can't they develop a new mechanic like tag teaming?




burninmylight said:


MP2 is my least favorite of the trilogy. It's not bad, but for me, it was TOO non-linear and isolated. The whole "To open this door, you need to find these three keys, but each key is split into __ pieces, and each piece is behind another door that you need ___ number of ___ to get inside" got mind-boggling, especially if your attention is divided between that game and others, or you play only once every few days and forget what you're supposed to do. If you haven't played the others, you really should. Get the Metroid Prime Trilogy on Wii; it's worth every penny.



BestBuck15 said:

Yes you do need to remember where you are supposed to be going but if you forget the game will give you a hint after a while.

I have all the Metroid games on Gamecube and Wii. I tried to give Metroid Prime a play last year but the problem was I remembered most of it and it felt very familiar so I got bored but with MP2 I raced through it in the past so i wasn't that familiar with it. Im really enjoying it.



JaxonH said:


You can't reasonably expect a company, whose interest is fundamentally at odds with the consumer, to listen to the consumer concerning pricing. Neither can you reasonably expect a company's relationships with developers to be exactly what fans want. Obviously, Nintendo strives to have good relations with everyone. But realistically, wanting good relations and having good relations are two completely separate things.

As for retro IP management, again, all for-profit businesses are fundamentally opposed to the interests of the consumer. We want low prices. They want high prices. We want all the good VC games right away, they want to ensure they maximize profitability by allowing the lesser-known VC games to occupy digital real-estate.

When it comes down to it, there's a reason most companies do not base decisions off fan requests. If the desires of fans were always the clear cut way to go, then everyone would be doing it. Unfortunately, fans write alot of checks they can't cash. Everyone talks about how great THIS would be. Company A responds by doing THIS, and no one buys it.

For example. I want a new F-Zero. I'm sure you do as well, and probably half the people on this site. However, I'm not so sure the fanbase can cash that check, if you will. In fact, I'm fairly certain a new F-Zero would struggle to sell more than Pikmin 3, and it'd be lucky to do that well.

Another example- everyone complained about poor Wii U VC offerings every week. Lo and behold, not only do we get fantastic VC games this entire month, they're games that have never been on Virtual Console before, which makes them all the more desirable (fans complain about a repeat of Wii VC, well, we're getting games that were never on Wii VC, and really good ones at that). This is EXACTLY what fans were asking for. But, now fans are complaining about those very games (we've all heard the abundant negativity surrounding GBA games on Wii U). Case in point> Fans complain about something. Nintendo responds. Fans complain about getting what they asked for.



Henmii said:

"It is not up to the fans to know what they want. It is up to them to enjoy what is being made. The fans exist because of the creative outing in the first place"

I don't agree. As with everything, there should be balance. Creators should make what they want, but sometimes they also have to listen to the fans. If you keep ignoring the fans, one day they will abandon you!

Like what is happening with Nintendo at the moment. Most of the old fans have left the building, and the new audience created by the Wii and DS have mostly migrated to Smartphones/Tablets. And they won't come back!



unrandomsam said:

@JaxonH It is a choice they make though. Amazon chooses to only be bothered about themselves and the final customer. Nintendo chooses to be good to everybody (Even the retailers who are basically totally ripping them off by only stocking used) except the final customer.

Cannot think of many fans who asked for GBA on Wii U. Gamecube / N64 yes but not GBA. No way was that exactly what people asked for.

If they just reverted the difficulty wholesale to GBA / Gamecube levels that would be enough for me but as it is all I get is less and less out of it.



JaxonH said:


That's not fair. No one ASKED for Metroid Prime. No one ASKED for Pikmin. No one ASKED for Wonderful 101. No one ASKED for DKC Returns, or Kid Icarus Uprising, or the Wii, or the Wii U, or the 3DS, or anything really. Just because fans don't ask for something doesn't mean it's not a good thing.

Fans asked for better VC, and specifically complained about VC games being titles already released on Wii. Nintendo answered that call with great VC games, and ones never before released on VC. How is that not something fans asked for? That IS what fans asked for. How could anyone NOT want great VC games on Wii U? They want great games, they want something new that's never been on VC before, but then when Nintendo does exactly that, GBA isn't good enough? GBA isn't what "fans asked for?". If no one asked for GBA on Wii U, it was only because it seemed like something too good to ever come true.

EDIT: Not to sound tempermental- I'm not upset at you or anything. I just very adamantly disapprove of the "we didn't ask for this" complaint. Because Nintendo isn't waiting tables. You wouldn't tell Picasso how to paint or what to paint- you let the master do his work and marvel at the result. Likewise, you don't order Nintendo around and cite specific demands- you let the masters do their work and marvel at the result. Every game in existence began as something fans never asked for. But every now and then Nintendo will do something to answer the complaints of fans. And fans were most certainly complaining about dull VC and re-releases from the Wii VC era. Now we get Metroid Fusion, Advance Wars, and the like, and people complain about that too, as if getting good, NEW games on Wii U VC is somehow a bad thing. It just boggles my mind. Perhaps people would rather go back the days of Volleyball NES VC?



Zombie_Barioth said:

Its definitely a balancing act. Fan often don't actually know what makes a good game, they're usually at odds with others or only thinking of what works for them. Look at Pokemon, you have fans that hate anything past gen 1 or 2, want all regions, have their own ideas to "balance" the game, and so on.

At the same time speaking up can be a good thing, case in point, Microsoft's DRM. As someone pointed out Bungie used a lot of fan feedback. Rune Factory 4 had a fan-art tribute. Capcom has a weapon contest for MH4. We had Operation Rainfall and got Earthbound on VC.

Unfortunately,many companies only listen when its convenient for them or hurts their bottom dollar. For Nintendo they're trying so hard to 'save' the Wii U they're throwing all the big, safe sellers out hoping at least one sticks. It doesn't seem to occur to them to try something wildly different to grab peoples' attention. Its to the point a new Star Fox or other fan-favorite would be considered such.



Gamer83 said:


Exactly what I was thinking. I can't think of a single Resident Evil fan, myself included, who was asking for the game Capcom delivered in RE 6.



NathanVS said:

@JaxonH You speak my language. Gamers are, dare I say it, spoiled. When DKCTF was announced, there was nothing but hate and disdain for it just because it wasn't ''Star Fox'' or ''another Metroid''. Some here even want it to fail so that Retro can stop making DKC games. It broke my heart.



Hortencio said:

Amen, brotha! We all want the U to work and succeed, but people have no patience, no faith these days. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough, but 10 or so (instant) classics a year, between retail and download, is enough for me...and yes, even now, the U is close to that mark. I agree with some that they're ignoring certain critical franchises (sigh F-Zero...) while crazily favoring others (2D Mario), but mad people complained about Other M (which I enjoyed, for one), the exact style of game many were calling for when OG Prime was announced! Execution aside, 'tis a balancing act, indeed, @Zombie_Barioth.



JaxonH said:

@Hortencio @NathanVS
The biggest thing that gets me is the systematic discrimination of the 2D platformer by the Nintendo fan.

When DKC Tropical Freeze was close to release, I heard so many complaints about Wii U being "nothing but 2D platformers" and that Nintendo "only makes 2D platformers" and that "nobody wants 2D platformers nowadays". Never in my life have I witnessed such blatant prejudice toward a genre of game.

Before DKC Tropical Freeze released, we had ONE 2D platformer from Nintendo. One. Yes, it had DLC in the way of New Super Luigi U, but that's all that was- extra content. In fact, there were only two 2D platformers on the system total at that time between 1st and 3rd parties. What I don't get, is we had two stealth games, two FPS, two racers, two 3D platformers, two minigame collections, two survival-horror, two adventure games, two action beat-em-ups.... pretty much no matter WHAT game would have released in place of DKC, it would have made Game #3 for its given genre.

So why the fuss about 2D platformers? There were no more of them than any other genre on the system. Furthermore, you don't see 2D platformers anymore on the other consoles, so they're actually even a rarer genre than any other. You'd think people would be in favor of more games in the genre, given they're so rare nowadays (especially good ones). Strategy RPGs are a niche genre, but no one complains when we see a couple of those. And 2D platformers are no more niche than SRPGs- that I can assure you.

It all comes down to the inferiority argument. Some people actually hold the prejudice that 2D platformers are "lesser" games than other genres. Can you believe that? As if one type of game is superior to another. No one would DARE say such a thing about a strategy RPG, or a dungeon crawler, or a dating SIM, or even an RPG card game... even though many of those genres are much more simplistic than 2D platformers.

Furthermore, we really only got to see 2 generations of 2D games before they all but disappeared with the N64 and Playstation. I can understand all games being 3D when the technology first made them viable, but we've actually reached a point that 3D games are exhausting their possibilities, yet there's so much more that can be done with the 2D platformer. We've had 3D games for MUCH longer than we ever had 2D games, yet people get in a frenzy any time they catch so much as a whiff of a 2D platformer, regardless of how good it is or how few of them there are available on the high market nowadays. It's genre discrimination, and it's run rampant among Nintendo fans. I say, every genre is just as credible as the next. I say, there is no superior genre. I say, if people are gonna complain about getting a third 2D platformer, I better hear the same complaints when Mario Kart 8 releases, seeing as it's the third cart racer (Sonic and F1). I better hear those same complaints about Smash seeing as it's the third fighter. I better hear those same complaints about Bayonetta, seeing as it's the third action beat-em-up.



Zombie_Barioth said:

2D platformers aren't the only genre in that boat. FPS are "all gray/brown" or all the same. Platformers in general have the "nobody wants" stigma. RPGs were and to an extent still are for "basement dwellers" and so on.

Your right about 2D being seen as inferior though. Back when the PS1 launched Sony even effectively banned 2D games to show off the console. I think the PS2 had that problem too, I remember hearing NIS had trouble with Disgaea due to such stigmas. "Nobody wants 2D SRPGs anymore" or something to that effect.

I think the sudden influx of 2D games might have caused the problem somewhat. Its the go-to for indies, you have a whole bunch of them between the 3DS and Wii U, and several of Nintendo's biggest IP are known best for it.



JaxonH said:

What's messed up about that though is when people complain about a lack of games they say indies don't count. They say they didn't buy a console for indies. But the second a 2D platformer releases from Nintendo, they use indie games (games they never bought or played) as reason of over saturation. Games that never mattered before all of a sudden count just as much as a full blown release when it fits their agenda



Action51 said:

@SahashraLA - Part of what you say is fair and true, but also some of it is a little ridiculous.

You have to look at the fanbases of each game, and what Nintendo has done with them in the past. First of all, the Starfox fanbase is one of the worst, and the cries for a new Starfox are mostly from internet fandoms who don't really care, but repeat stuff they read on forums. Same with F-Zero. The F-Zero fanbase didn't embrace the Excite Truck or Excite Bot franchises.

I think you have the metroid fanbase all wrong. If you remove the story and narrative elements from Other M, you are still left with a short, linear, inferior Metroid game with a control scheme that feels more situationally gimmicky then immersive. Also, when Metroid Prime released back in 2003, FPS games weren't the juggernaut they are today.

The main point of contention I have with you is, how is this any different then the fanbase of any other popular game? Take Assassin's Creed for example...every game gets picked apart and criticized. Halo? God of War?...all these games have unpleasable fanbases too.



Action51 said:

@Zombie_Barioth said:

"Back when the PS1 launched Sony even effectively banned 2D games to show off the console."

Wow really? From what I've read the PS1 was actually created as something of an ultimate 2D platform and it's architecture was designed around that. The launch lineup contained both 2d and 3d games.

Are you sure you aren't talking about the N64?



Dyltheman said:

@Doma tell me there was many people that wanted the game, there wasn't. it then look at it's critical reception. nothing "new" about it. that statment would make sense had retro pawned it off to the devs of NSMBW.



Hortencio said:

Agreed. Besides my greatly malnourished RPG feedings from Nintendo (Child of Light, I cannot wait!), I think the spread of genres on the U is appropriate thus far. The popularity of these sparing 2D games creates the perception that that's all Nintendo can and wants to do. It's a shame, but then again, I don't play videogames to feel accepted by my peers ( 90% of my gaming friends wouldn't be caught dead buying Nintendo, especially the U); I play what I want and say buck the rest! There are a ton of games slated for 2014 that I am very excited about (albeit digital, for the doom-gloomers), and if E3 can be the 2015 preview we all are hoping for, then I will be happy for years to come. And if not, well, at least I got my Smash!



Zombie_Barioth said:

I don't think it was a "ban" so much as they really discouraged it. I remember hearing we almost missed out on games like Legend of Mana because of it. It might have just been 2D RPGs, I know it didn't last too long and pushing games like FFVII probably had something to do with it, along with 2D RPGs doing poorly in comparison.



AshFoxX said:

We could use some of that Lobb magic on the Wii U. Still, it's good to hear they didn't put the 'Kinect Sports' developer on Killer Instinct. (I refuse to say the name because it still hurts.)

I won't ever play Killer Instinct because I believe that Xbox is scum, but I'm sure other people are very happy with it.



Arminillo said:

If video games are truly an art form, developers should be able to make whatever they want, regardless of fan input.



MadJay1664 said:

@Marshi zombies should not have guns lol it's ridiculous! How would they find them and how would they find ammo init it's just stupid XD



Alucard83 said:

Well first of all the "NEW" Killer Instinct is simply not the same as the past games! I get only Street Fighter feeling. This new one is not worth it's name! Totally no Killer Instinct feeling. The movements of the characters and the music it's just not what it should be! Nuff said. Failure for MS! .....................................FLAT!



Alucard83 said:

@JaxonH Long live 2D! First of all the 3D games doesn't even come near to the same gameplay as a 2D game offers. 3D isn't even close to real 3D all we see still poopoodoodoocacapoopledoopledoggiepoople graphics! If only fans are impressed by 3D they are simply no gamers. Nuff said

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