News Article

There May Never Be Another Smash Bros. as Hardcore as Melee

Posted by James Newton

So says Sakurai

Super Smash Bros. Melee holds a special place in the hearts of many Nintendo fans, but creator Masuhiro Sakurai regrets aiming the game so strongly towards hardcore gamers, saying it's a mistake he wouldn't repeat again.

Claiming to have created Smash Bros. to counteract the industry-wide move towards making the fighting game genre more and more hardcore, Sakurai now feels the game was simply too difficult, something he aimed to put right with follow-up Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult.

How do you feel about this assertion from Sakurai?

[via 1up.com]

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User Comments (109)

RaylaxStaff

#2

Raylax said:

Good.
I shall now keep a close eye on this story's comments to laugh at the wavedashers and Fox/Final Destination 'Stop Having Fun' Guys

NGpenguin

#5

NGpenguin said:

what?! that game was easy.
Ill still be glad if he makes another but, WOW.
I liked the Brawl better than Melee but theres no point at all for Sakurai to say this.

Yadoking

#7

Yadoking said:

Well, people will just adapt and become better at the "harder" video game.

Link79

#8

Link79 said:

Well it was difficult If we're talking about unlocking all the trophies.
I still to this day haven't got them all. The one you get for never using a continue on hard mode is a good example. Some of the requirements are a little insane. I'm sure Brawl has it's fair share of hardcore challenges also.

Drewciffer

#9

Drewciffer said:

The only hard part was the 15 minute melee we had to endure to unlock .. Falco? was it?

Otherwise Melee was just plain enjoyable. Brawl is way too slow, i haven't played brawl since it came out and i beat it in a day... = Yet i played melee for almost 180 hours...

Omenapoika

#10

Omenapoika said:

That is really funny thing to say, but I suppose that I'm one of "the players who played deep into the game without problems". Yeah, I bet it's hard to think that the game is hard if you had no problems to play it through. I think it's one of the best games on Gamecube in terms of inviting challenge.

Birthday_Boy

#11

Birthday_Boy said:

@mariosmyhero
Did you use a cheat site, like I did?
Lets review,
51 DIFFICULT Events Where you can unlock many characters
29 Stages (But I never unlocked N64 Yoshi's Island and N64 Dream Land)
There was no cheap Ikes (Ike is way stronger than much brawlers)
There was no Smash Balls

MasterGraveheart

#14

MasterGraveheart said:

When it first came out, I was able to unlock everything. The only thing I had problems with was Cruel Melee. Unless I'm mistaking... IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFICULT!

Sakurai, if you don't have the guts to maintain a great franchise, then pass the buck off. Use the free time to make more great Kirby games.

Hardcore has nothing to do with difficulty or franchise. It has to do with the player's dedication to playing the game itself. Halo 3 can be played casually. Wii Sports can be played hardcore.

Bass_X0

#15

Bass_X0 said:

Buck Off? Is that what you're telling the developer of a great videogame?

JakobG

#17

JakobG said:

Well, all he does besides SSB is Kirby, a franchise that's focused on appeal younger and more inexperienced gamers.
Nevertheless, at least make the tripping optional, HAL.

Kid_A

#18

Kid_A said:

I understand where he's coming from, but I think he's wrong--Melee isn't a difficult game. I could never figure out Street Fighter as a kid, but Super Smash Bros. was always easy for me to pick up and play. I remember playing my six/seven year old cousins in it all the time--we weren't very good, but the core mechanics were super easy to figure out.

I think Nintendo understands who their core audience with this property is, though. I don't think the next Smash Bros. game will be "dumbed down." Brawl was already an attempt to make Melee more accessible, and I think it was a successful one. If they can make the game more balanced, and maybe add in some helpful/more simplified options for newcomers I think they'll be able to maintain that happy medium between hardcore/accessible.

Big_A2

#19

Big_A2 said:

I agree.

To an extent.
Melee is fine as it is, and Brawl is fine as it is. At least there's a choice.
I can imagine all the hate on other website right now. Ugh... It's March 2008 all over again.

KeeperBvK

#20

KeeperBvK said:

So a once great series just died for me. The original was great, the sequel near-perfect and so far I considered Brawl to be a mistake, but seemingly that's where the series is heading to, so I'll wave it good-bye then.

madgear

#21

madgear said:

I wouldn't say I thought Melee hardcore - it's just a bounce around button masher of a fighter. Some things took a while to unlock, but they did in Brawl too - I clocked up hours trying to collect all the characters and stages in that one. Let's face it, it's hardly a Virtua Fighter game is it.

SuperPeach

#22

SuperPeach said:

I didn't think it was hard. It did had enough challenge for me to take pride in the fact that I could beat every cpu on highest setting with Pichu. :D

Gene

#25

Gene said:

I just want SSB with good online game and maybe with cell-shaded graphics. :P

Joetherocker

#26

Joetherocker said:

So THAT'S why I unlocked all the characters/ beat almost every event and unlocked nearly every stage without help when I was 10.

Robo-goose

#28

Robo-goose said:

@Raylax
"I shall now keep a close eye on this story's comments to laugh at the wavedashers and Fox/Final Destination 'Stop Having Fun' Guys"
Those were my first thoughts when I saw the title. Surprisingly, I haven't seen very many, so I think your comment scared them off.

Noire

#29

Noire said:

Video games are serious business, guys. Why would you expect to have fun playing them? Sheesh.

STOP HAVING FUN!

Caliko

#30

Caliko said:

???
Is this a new trend to say Melee wasn't "HARDcore"?
I remember fans whining and complaining about Brawl being "nerfed up". There was a video with some of the best Smash players in the world talking about this.

I just think they balanced Brawl out more and I Love it.
This is good news to me. I thought Brawl was more accessible/fun.

1. Pick your favorite character.
2.Practice.
3.Brawl.

bro2dragons

#31

bro2dragons said:

I'm a Brawl fan, but there definitely needs to be some spots of extreme difficulty. Whether in All-Star or Boss Battle modes, ore the special challenges, or the Multi-Man contests, or what, it's the kind of game that should be able to tell you how "hardcore" a fan/gamer you are by how much you've unlocked.

HappyHappy

#32

HappyHappy said:

I could never unlock all of the characters, but other than that I don't think it was that difficult.

erv

#33

erv said:

I loved brawl more than melee, so that's probably a good thing.

If the new smash has incredible online and dlc in terms of characters and most importantly levels, count me in.

Jarael

#34

Jarael said:

This sounds fine to me. Brawl was tons of fun. And if you think about it this way "making it less hard" = making tripping optional. But maybe I'm an optimist. The way I see it, do what you want, Sakurai-san, just give us Mega Man, Simon Belmont, Geno and Ridley!

Caliko

#35

Caliko said:

@bro2dragons IDK some of the challenges on Brawl are tough for me. I have a very hard time beating the final event match and some of the multi man brawl challenges.

Xiao_Pai

#36

Xiao_Pai said:

I actually liked how all of the unlockables were a challenge in Melee...as opposed to Brawl where you can unlock the majority in less than a day. I dunno, Melee was a memorable game for me, being my first GCN game. Brawl, I already knew what was coming...stupid website updates, lol. Anyways if he does decide to make another, just keep the Final Smashes, Pokeballs (doubt they'll be taken out anyways but whatever, lol), and Assist Trophies and I'll be happy. :p

Dorkvader

#37

Dorkvader said:

I like melee but it is hard trying to unlock all the stages. but i did get all the characters. and i like that in brawl easy to get all the stages and characters.but i think brawl is more difficult with the ai then melee was but melee was faster so i always lost track of where my character. and i hate that stupit smash ball from brawl i turn it off it hard to get that before the ai does.

RyuZebian

#40

RyuZebian said:

@mariosmyhero
I think I did when I was 10...
A guy at school talked about how he had played the game at his cousin's and liked playing as "the flat guy..." At the time I thought I had already unlocked all characters! I was confused, and then played it A LOT, without any specific goal other than to obtain this character in some way... And after a while, I unlocked Mr. Game & Watch! Awesome. There can never be another game for me like SSBM. Never. It was what I spent almost all my Gamecube time with! If a friend came over, it meant Melee. Brawl can never replace a part of my childhood... I hoped for it to be both bigger, better and more badass than my previous SSB experiences. I was disappointed. It felt so INCREDIBLY shallow in almost all aspects. It's probably not as shallow as I think it is, because like I said, it can't compare with the magic of your childhood. Getting the "new character approaching" and beat it will never, EVER be beaten by any gaming sensation. Of all the disappointments in Brawl, I can't call the music one. I was at a new phase of my gaming hobby, in which soundtracks played a big role (and still do). The Brawl soundtrack is AMAZING and special in the way that Melee was as a game. And getting one of those CDs randomly dropped from the sky is really as close as I've come to have a Melee experience with Brawl. Oh well, that's how special it is to me. I'm glad it was hardcore! :)

pseudoN

#41

pseudoN said:

I'm guessing that Sakurai is referring to the difficulty of multi-player. I remember playing Melee with unexperienced players who would just put the controller down after 5 minutes exclaiming "I don't know what's happening". That happens less so with Brawl in my experience. Brawl's slightly more approachable.

FonistofCruxis

#42

FonistofCruxis said:

I just find it wierd how some people think that melee or even the original are better than brawl. Melee is inferior to brawl and the original is inferior to both of them. I played melee a lot when I was younger but I can still see how superior brawl is to it.

Chris720

#43

Chris720 said:

I liked Melee, but it was pretty terrible to be honest. It might of been because I didn't really get into it all that much, but it was just so boring.

But Brawl enhanced on Melee in so many ways. And its only slow because of the inclusion of Sonic.

However, you cannot beat the controls Melee had. The CC, Wiimote and Wiimote+Nunchuk are awful compared to the Gamecube controller.

And besides, I though they said Brawl was the last in the series?

Chrono_Cross

#45

Chrono_Cross said:

Brawl was way more hardcore than Melee. My friends and I literally got everything in melee along time ago. Brawl? Well we still need to defeat 5 enemies in Cruel brawl and beat Boss Battles on intense...

Xiao_Pai

#46

Xiao_Pai said:

I think it's "slower" to become somewhat similar to how the original played out, I don't mind it much. Only thing I hate about Brawl and CPUs...they keep ganging up on me!!! T_T

komicturtle

#48

komicturtle said:

Sorry, but I'm with Sakurai. Melee was great for it's time. The thing that I didn't like about Melee when looking at it a few years ago and trying to play competetively is that Kirby, along with a couple of my favorite characters in the original were nerfed (a term i never used then).

I really think people are being OVERLY nostalgic saying "Melee is more balanced than Brawl" and that's just BS. There are MORE characters in Brawl that can be played competitively (mostly ALL of the characters) than in Melee where some characters had a harder time being matched up with another character than they are now in Brawl.

I'm glad the physics changed in Brawl as well as how more balanced the roster is (it's not perfect, though). Hope with the next Smash Bros.- everything will be balanced and there won't be "cheap exploits", cause THAT was common in Brawl than in Melee.

bro2dragons

#49

bro2dragons said:

@Caliko: exactly my point. I haven't unlocked everything, either (some of the trophies, I mean. I've got all characters and maps and Mapmaker tools, etc.). But I wouldn't say it's "too hard." It seems like the perfect balance to me. It shows how skilled I am that I've sunk that much time into it and still haven't gotten every trophy, but it still hasn't kept me from getting all the characters and stages so I can enjoy the game to its fullest.

Chunky_Droid

#50

Chunky_Droid said:

I unlocked all stages and characters and modes without any cheat sites, just unlocked them from simply playing everything it had to offer.

Same with Brawl. All Brawl did was take out the ability to move your shields and no wave dashing, 2 things I never used anyway.

Melee wasn't hardcore, after all my Gamecube saves got deleted, my son unlocked most of everything for me (at age 8) just as long as he knew what was required.

JakobG

#52

JakobG said:

I stared playing Diddy Kong a few weeks ago, and it's a blast.
After a few days, I was able to beat level 9-coms and come up with awesome combos. It didn't matter if I win or loose, in every match with Diddy there's something awesome happening.
Want to make it accessible and appealing to everyone, Sakurai?
Make every character as fun and different as Diddy.

OldBoy

#54

OldBoy said:

Personally I wouldn't care if he never made another one. :P Give me Street Fighter any day!
LOL sorry, just never cared for SSB games

Denkou

#55

Denkou said:

What. The. Fudge. Melee was rediculously easy! The level 9 CPU's were just plain stupid!

J-Forest-Esq

#57

J-Forest-Esq said:

I was a tad dissapointed by Brawl to be honest. It didn't draw me in as Melee did. The characters didn't have the same weight as they did in Melee. When you KO'd somebody you felt a wave of satisfaction which for some reason was lacking in Brawl. I thought the stages weren't very good either. Not sure why. The Subspace Emissiary was good though.

FierceRegalia

#59

FierceRegalia said:

You are doing it wrong guys. Sakurai didnt mean the game was hard for 1P modes.

More like its gameplay mechanics are too complex.

OverlordMao

#61

OverlordMao said:

I really like Melee and Brawl, because I grew up with both. But Melee was DEFINITELY hardcore. I'm not a tournament type of guy, and Brawl was much fairer in asking me to defeat it's harder challenges OVER TIME. Melee was really difficult and faster-paced, and I can say that after having it for a good 8 years.

Punny

#62

Punny said:

I loved Melee just the way it was. I love how it managed to be hardcore with all of its family-friendly characters. Why be guilty about it, Mr. Sakurai? We love this kind of stuff! :)

JimLad

#63

JimLad said:

I think he wants Smash Bros to be like the Mario Kart of Fighting games.
Thing is, the damage and KO system was so good that people wanted to take it seriously and get really competitive. Which is also good.

Next time, all he has to do is give the option to change the speed of the game, like in Street Fighter Turbo. As well as the option to lock out certain arenas, characters and items online. (and maybe fix the lag)
In my opinion though, I think many people feel let down by Brawl because it was too similar to Melee. It didn't have same impact on their lives the second time around. Maybe if the online had been better, and some kind of 'customise your character' option was added...

Whatever happens, I commend his stance against the staleness of standard beat 'em ups.

TKOWL

#65

TKOWL said:

Isn't the real challenge of Smash Bros. learning everyone's combos?

LEGEND_MARIOID

#66

LEGEND_MARIOID said:

Thought it was tough at times but I didn't think it was hardcore. Thought it was great much like Brawl...

WaveyChristmas

#67

WaveyChristmas said:

There's only ONE cheap character in Brawl and that's Mettaknight! You can't blocks his double side attacks which is totaly unfair, he's like a sword swinging chaotic mess.lol

Anyways, at least bring back the proper 'Melee' air dashing for SSB 4. Brawls has been screwed with for the worse. I want to be able to control my dashing in mid air and actually have your character actually dashing like in Melee instead of sinking to the ground like in Brawl.

Digiki

#69

Digiki said:

It baffles me that Sakurai had any part of SSB or SSBM.

Was Melee a really hard game? To get everything it was pretty tough, to play in general, not at all. It's a fair amount faster, and the game didn't do anything for you, but general gameplay wasn't significantly harder.

Sakurai tried to narrow the skill gap with Brawl, and failed. The better players will still win easily just as often as in Melee, the only difference is that it takes twice as long, but that added time is wasted as the game plays slower. In Melee you spent just as long fighting, you spent less time floating around.

Sakurai's vision is one I despise with a passion, "I'm going to make a competitive game, but try to keep it as uncompetitive as I can!"

MasterGraveheart

#70

MasterGraveheart said:

@Bass_X0: Uh, noooo... I said "pass the buck off." It's a coin of phrase. What I'm saying is that, rather than make drastic alterations that may alienate your already extremely loyal fanbase, perhaps let someone else take a shot with it. Not saying don't have anything to do with it anymore. Hell, you're the game's originator, essentially, so you should have something to do with it. I just think the Smash Bros. fans want more of what they love, only bigger, better, and badder (in a good way). It's what they did for Zelda, it's what they did for Mario, it's what they did with Donkey Kong, it's what they did with Metroid, and its what they should do with Smash.

And if difficulty is a big problem, remind people to read the instruction manuels or watch the tutorial movies. It's what they're there for. :)

triforceofcourage

#71

triforceofcourage said:

i honestly think both brawl and melee are masterpieces in their own ways. te only thing he said that surprised or worried me was "even if I ever had a chance at another one" does this mean the future for super smash bros. may be the doomed to discontinuement!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :O
does sakurai really not want to continue an amazing bestselling fighter game that almost everyone loves? Or is someone just not allowing him....

Really though, I have owned brawl for about three and a half years now, and i still play it regularly and still find new stratigies and master new characters in new ways. As long as the series can be kept deep enough to keep people coming back like that, I think i dont mind an easy setting. as long as it can be turned up a notch if i dont want to fight pushovers. I think brawl did it right with CPUs levels 1-9 and SSE and challenges easy-normal-hard-very hard-intense. keep that formula, change all the challenges, characters (but keep what they have too, just add new ones), SSE stages, stages, items, and settings. Throuw in some fresh new ideas and stuff and i will love a sequel. like mario galaxy-mario galaxy 2. Don't mess with the winning formula. ADD A BIT OF STUFF TO IT!

BlueKirby

#72

BlueKirby said:

I find all of this talk about hardcore/casual really irritating. I feel that as long as you enjoy the game, then it doesn't matter how you define yourself. I happen to love both Kirby's Epic Yarn and Donkey Kong Country Returns equally, even though one is defined as "casual" and the other "hardcore". I find that they are equally good, with very few flaws.Would you define me as a hardcore or a casual? I feel that I should be classified as a gamer, a person that feels that if a game is good and meets your requirements it should be played. I think that we are missing the point of gaming.

BulbasaurusRex

#73

BulbasaurusRex said:

The only problems I have with Brawl are the online lag and lack of online random match options (of course), and the gravity is too weak. You don't have to make the next one as fast-paced as Melee, but at least make it a decent challenge at times to get back to the stage. As it is, you almost always have knock someone completely outside the stage boundries or get lucky with an environmental gimmick to get a KO, as if the concept of needing to get back to the stage doesn't exist anymore. Before the game came out, I was excited about how gliding characters appeared a built-in advantage in this regard, but the extremely weak gravity makes the gliding addition nearly pointless.

JakobG

#74

JakobG said:

I see where he's going at.
Melee was way too in-depth for a casual fighter.
But I don't see that really as a problem.
Look at games like Super Mario Galaxy 2 or Donkey Kong Country Returns.
They're both Nintendo-hard titles, but with the superguide and the supportive coop in DKCR, they're accessible to the casuals.
There are other ways to make a fighter family-friendly than to dumb it down, Sakurai.It's just your job to find them. How about control difficulty settings? Mario Kart has that feature with drifting. I despise the automatic, while my more inexperienced brother always chooses to use it.

Gameday

#75

Gameday said:

Damn. Those were the days , ive moved away and me and the fellas use to play melee all the time , we barely touch brawl these days but we could go out get some grub play couple matches on mario party on cube and save melee for last cause we played that for hours on end all night with a 3 man stock and then the final round we'd have 8 to 10 man stock and who ever who win could have bragging rights and we talked alotta mess (edited). We took most tournaments in are area (i was 17 when i meant those fools) never tho id meet someone that was into melee like me or in this case we all just called it smash ha but anyways it was always a shame when it was one of us up against another in the finals... But yea long live MELEE and Brawl

Link-Hero

#77

Link-Hero said:

Uhh, there is really no difference in difficulty besides a couple of areas in each game. Don't know what he is talking about.

danschemen

#78

danschemen said:

i think it should become more hardcore being the nintendo characters in a hardcore fighter is great and a lot of fun

Kingbuilder

#79

Kingbuilder said:

Yeah, I'm not gonna buy the next Smash Bros. game, plain and simple. I enjoyed Melee due to it's hardcore gameplay. Brawl was a bit more pale for me due to it's casual gameplay, and I refuse to waste 50$+ on a game I know I won't end up liking.

NintyMan

#82

NintyMan said:

Melee was great for its time, but Brawl tops it on almost everything. It was "hardcore" but I think its difficulty was not much harder than Brawl's, where it had its share of tough challenges. I truly hope a fourth Smash Bros is made some day.

CorbsAdmin

#83

Corbs said:

Garou: Mark of the Wolves is hardcore. Virtual Fighter is hardcore. Smash Bros. isn't even in the vicinity of hardcore. :)

xXx-NoobKing-xXx

#84

xXx-NoobKing-xXx said:

As a pro melee player, I can tell you first hand that melee far exceeds the other two smash games in that there is almost no limit to how good you can get. The replay value for smash melee is just out of this world. The game is VERY hard to get good at, and when you THINK you're good, there's definetly someone out there 10x better than you.

WaveyChristmas

#85

WaveyChristmas said:

@Corbie
Even that little smily face can't tell me if you're joking or not.lol
I used to like Virtua Figther back on the Saturn and the Arcades....But I can't stand the franchise anymore. I find combo based fighters like DOA, Tekken and VA to be utterly boring, unsatisfying and unenjoyable. I was into those franchises back on the playstation....But I honestly can't remember having any fun playing them, even though i was great at them. Nothing tops Battle Area Toshinden, NOTHING I TELL YOU! lol :p

@xXx-NoobKing-xXx
I consider myself pretty damn pro as well when it comes to Melee. It definitly has the advantage over Brawl in speed, being much less floaty, and again for the milliionth time the Air dashing was brilliant...Brawl's has been butchered, gimped and casualised. I remembe being so dissapointed with how Brawl played the first time I got my hands on it...At first I wasn't 'too' annoyed by the floatier and slightly slower gameplay, but when I discovered the horrible and butchered air dodging I wanted to honestly stop playing. You can't dodge directionally in the air, your character instead does a tiny gimped animation and sinks to the ground like a tank.....Which completely takes some serious skill and fun out of the game.

But I'm so used to Brawl now that I don't mind...But if I were to go back to Melee, it would be like night and day.lol

StarDust4Ever

#86

StarDust4Ever said:

Nintendo didn't botch Brawl up nearly as bad as they did with Super Strikers Charged; all of these special abilities, and the up-to-6-points SuperStrike moves were complete overkill, that and I missed the hilarious random "Bowser" events from the first game.

LOL, with Brawl, the first or second night I made it my goal to unlock Sonic the Hedgehog. The Brawl strategy guide said one of the ways to unlock Sonic was to play 300 match games, so I set up a bunch of one-stock matches with with Pokemon and some random opponents, suicided 300 times (because I hate Pokemon), and only used the good characters when a new character appeared, because I had to defeat them to unlock. I think I finally beat Sonic on like the eighth rematch by some dumb stroke of luck :P

moosa

#87

moosa said:

I loved Melee, and played it for hundreds of hours.
I also loved Brawl, and played it for hundreds of hours.
I wish people would stop complaining about Brawl simply because it's DIFFERENT.
Just because Melee plays a bit faster doesn't make it a better game. I prefer having room to think about my game over a full-on spam fest, and I'm no casual. Melee was broken in some ways, and obviously not balanced, which led to people taking the hardcore approach way too far and taking all the fun out of the game. This is what Sakurai was really talking about. Brawl still has tons of depth and room for the hardcore players to master it, and at least 95% of people who whine about the game never put enough hours into it to be able to properly appreciate it.

Zorothemetal1

#88

Zorothemetal1 said:

you guys dont really know what you are talking about unless you actually play other people. He's not talking about cruel melee,1 player modes,unlocking characters or anything like that. He's talking about new players playing veterans. In brawl a new player may beat a veteran just because of the mechanics of the game(see tripping). In melee that would never happen. Melee is the better game in every regard and this is evident when one is skilled in both.

Digiki

#89

Digiki said:

I prefer having room to think about my game over a full-on spam fest, and I'm no casual. Melee was broken in some ways, and obviously not balanced, which led to people taking the hardcore approach way too far and taking all the fun out of the game.

Please provide supporting points to your erroneous claims. To be fair, I called your claims erroneous so I'll support why they are.

1) Spam-fest. Brawl is more haphazard than Melee, in Melee if you spam you're getting killed most of the time pretty easily if your opponent has much skill. In Brawl lots of moves are much more spamable, than anything in Melee, Pikachu & Wolf projectiles, Pit's side-B, and Ike's huge power provide much more mindless carnage than anything in Melee.

2) Melee broken? How so? I can show you a way Brawl is broken: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEz1Q7DpOU0
Brawl has plenty of glitches and exploits, but most of Brawl's are character specific, whereas Melee's benefited the full cast, and actually more often than not the worse characters more than the better one's decreasing the gap in character ability, for example wavedashing was most helpful on Luigi, who without it is terrible since he's super floaty.

3) Melee has significantly better balance than Brawl, hence why it has lasted so long competitively, whereas Brawl has not since Metaknight is so much better than every other character. Neither game is incredibly well balanced although Melee has 11 tourney viable characters, whereas Brawl has Metaknight, and then like 12 characters who are decent competition for each other but not Metaknight

TheLonelyGamer

#90

TheLonelyGamer said:

The only stuff that was difficult in Melee was some of the trophies like Diskun and Sheriff. Unlocking Mewtwo was very redundant though.

moosa

#91

moosa said:

@89
The vid you showed wasn't demonstrating anything broken at all. It's simply showing ledge grab distance. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it slightly larger for characters in Brawl, but there's nothing broken about it.
The worst thing about Melee was the endless Fox on Fox battles that bore the living hell out of me.

Nintonic

#92

Nintonic said:

What?! I was actually disappointed on how easy it was to unlock brawl's characters!

SuperLink

#94

SuperLink said:

I've heard nothing but the best for Melee, but I've only played Brawl (save the time I played it at my cousin's house).

Dodger

#95

Dodger said:

I haven't played Melee but I know Brawl is my favorite Wii game so I don't really care if it's better or worse then Melee.

Digiki

#96

Digiki said:

_The vid you showed wasn't demonstrating anything broken at all. It's simply showing ledge grab distance. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it slightly larger for characters in Brawl, but there's nothing broken about it.
The worst thing about Melee was the endless Fox on Fox battles that bore the living hell out of me._

Sure it's not broken, but it doesn't make any sense and looks embarrassing.
Evidently you know little about Melee as despite Fox being the best (by not much, and he does have unfavourable matchups), he's never been the most used character, nor is he a character that wins tournaments.
Whereas in Brawl it's Metaknight the vast majority of the time.
Then add to the fact that in tournament Melee battles are quick and aggressive, whereas Brawl is all about stall.
I responded with respect to the metagame seeing as how that's likely what you're talking about, seeing as how whining about a character being spammed in person is silly because you'd be complaining about something you'd be taking part in, not that complaining about stuff of no relevance to you is of any benefit either, but it's more common to see.

nmozdzier

#97

nmozdzier said:

Thank the lord! Melee was death, even though I never unlocked all of the stages, but all of the character, yes. I think that Brawl was just a bit too easy with the Emissary

JarredBuzzo

#99

JarredBuzzo said:

@Mariosmyhero, young children can be some of the best gamers out there. When you're under 10, learning is easier; you absorb a lot more information, did you watch people play before you, or did you just pick it up and go?

moosa

#100

moosa said:

@Digiki To be clear, I've never played Smash competitively, only for fun. Also I wasn't talking about "spamming" at all, apparently I just used a word that means something a bit different over the pond and the mods had to edit it. What I was trying to say is that I can appreciate the slight reduction in speed for Brawl because it lets you play with your head a bit more, although I certainly had no complaints during my time with Melee.
The thing everyone needs to understand here is that the game dynamics change depending on the skill level of the players. What may be balanced between players of one skill level may not be so much with players at another skill level. In Smash, the range of competent skill levels is huge compared to other fighters, so its an important concept to consider. The beauty of Smash is that it takes very little time for a new player to gain competency and have all the game's moves available to him/her. I think one of the main things Sakurai was getting at is how the most complex aspects of Melee divide the most hardcore gamers from the rest. Smash has always been a game you could load up with a bunch of friends that don't own the game and have a blast, even if as the experienced player you're doing the winning most of the time. But as soon as you pull some secret voodoo techniques out of your rear like wavedashing, which they could never hope to replicate, it breaks the magic where you're no longer beating them with the same moves that they can perform.
Gamers who played Melee lament the reduced speed because it feels immediately less exciting, but what I believe that they don't realize is that, for the vast majority of gamers, it also enables them to get a deeper game out of Brawl where they have the chance to focus more on the accuracy and timing of their movements and play more intelligently.
I think the number one reason people complain about things in Brawl is because other people do rather than from their own experience. It is a little different, which immediately rubs most people the wrong way, and then suddenly all those things everyone was making a fuss about on the forums becomes real to them. Rather than taking the time to learn the nuances and get a feel for how to play the new game, they complain about how such-and-such is imbalanced, even though they're not nearly of the skill level that such an issue would effect them. It is not hard at all to HAVE FUN playing Brawl if you can just turn off all those outside voices complaining about the game and experience it for what it is. I personally would take a game of Brawl over Melee any day because I simply enjoy it and its new features more, and I don't care what other people have to complain about.

Capt_N

#101

Capt_N said:

Melee was what my consumed the most game time of my sibling, & myself for some years ago. It also was the game my Cube had in it the most, due to this.

As for Brawl, The 1st week, & a 1/2 I owned the game, I was terrible @ it's online. I got better @ it, as soon as I realized to do moderate amounts of shield dodging. It's actually that when I get back into it(online), that it only takes time before I get great @ it again. When I don't play it consistently, I get worse @ online, & otherwise.

The difficulty of 1p modes is difficult @ times on the difficulty level's higher settings, of course. But there are still challenges/trophies I have to get, that I can't as of yet, due to the almost extreme difficulty on what's left (for me to unlock). I have a hard time in the multi-man, due to all 5 cpu opponents ganging up on me @ once. But Boss Battles appears to be just speed, & opponent movement memorization.

I believe it was back @ last Thanksgiving(09), my visiting non-immediate family, & their significant others tried playing. They just shook the Wiimotes, & Nunchuks like they thought it would do something. It was actually kind of embarrassing, as I felt they thought I had some games, they couldn't, nor would want to play.

I admit both games have brokenness. Both have their high points. Take each for what they are, & enjoy is all the advice I can give to you, my fellow NLife members.

Wahooo

#102

Wahooo said:

To be honest, I don't mind.
Yes, melee was excellent, but brawl is good too.
I don't mind if it wil never be the same, because if it was I wouldn't buy it.

blackchris

#103

blackchris said:

noobking, bringin in the knowledge from canada.

anybody who thinks melee was too fast wasn't getting into the game enough.

wavedashing is simple. you jump. and then you airdodge into the ground. it was a great useful part of the game and intentional or not, it added an amazing dimension for moving quickly while being able to act, without turning around.

fox, falco, marth, sheik, jiggs, peach, ganon, falcon, doc, luigi, and samus are all true legitimate threats to win a tournament as far as i'm concerned in melee.

Metakinght, snake, diddy, falco, olimar, DDD, marth, and wario is about where i'd draw the line for potential tourney winners in brawl.

both games require skill to be good at a competitive level.

melee is more challenging for the hands, and requires faster reflexes to ascend to a higher level.

idk anything as far as the one player modes but I personally don't play the games that way...and playing a fighting game by myself seems silly anyway.

the fact that its slow doesn't make it a bad game. but to say that melee was imprecise button mashing that was too fast shows the lack of focus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdwhcf87s3s

that, is melee now. and we will never see anything like it again. (except in project M)

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80MbcAAc&feature=related just rewatched this. best match ever. but there is hype, so uhh...13 and up only should watch.

MeloMan

#104

MeloMan said:

I just wish Sakurai was a lil clearer in his statement of difficulty. I'm thinking he's talking about having a multiplayer match among people who are just trying to enjoy classic Nintendo characters and have a fun battle versus those that are fighting game veterans in search of the metagame, which ends up running off the non-hardcore folk when they realize they are fighting a battle they can never win-- half of these folks develop thick skin and dedicated time to getting better, but what about those that aren't so motivated? Are they ailenated forever from playing the game at all save for by themselves or some other non-motivated Smashers? IMO I think only SSB64 seemed to captured the best balance between hardcore and casual in one match. I remember the metagame back then cause I among many others used to do it with Kirby the most, but even then, I remember playing that game and knowing that casuals or first timers could catch a groove with other characters and make the whole match quite entertaining... which is what everyone wants by the end of the match when playing amonst different skill sets. Since that time, Sakurai has opened the game to much bigger physics, which by consequence, created much deeper metagame to exploit... he can't blame people for his own creation... the only way he could remove the gap substantially is to go back to the N64, keep the "largeness" of the SSB series (number of characters, levels, movesets, items, etc.) and only slightly improve it's physics and speed but not as far up to the level as Melee or Brawl. Sakurai might find the balance he wants, but then that wouldn't be fair to the hardcore looking for deeper metagame cause it would be limited.

Whatever he comes up with, if we are indeed to get a 4th SSB, regardless to what we do and don't like, I don't think that's gonna stop the majority of people from picking up the game regardless.

My final message to him is he's a game developer-- if he's not happy with the style of the game, then he's gonna have to find a way to marry hardcore, casual gamestyles better without crippling the gameplay overall. Good luck Sakurai-san.

blackchris

#105

blackchris said:

real talk, i don't see what was so hard for ssbm for those who didn't get into it competitively.

it seems like the vast majority of people here don't know anything about smashboards or the competitive scene (except for the misconception of fox dittos on fd, hence my vids), but yet most remember the game fondly even without knowledge of wavedashing, l canceling, dash dancing, and the likes.

kdognumba1

#106

kdognumba1 said:

You wanna do Smash Bros justice? Fix the online stability and allow support for more customization and modes.

rocketknightuk

#107

rocketknightuk said:

"You wanna do Smash Bros justice? Fix the online stability and allow support for more customization and modes." - kdognumba1

like he/she said the online mode in SSBB was horrible I only played with friends only.

SSBB is freaking easy why would nintendo want to make the next game easy, I really do enjoy melee but it didn't have long lasting appeal like brawl, I was so happy to finaly get to play as Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong and Wolf O Donnel in a fighting game for once.

Makeing a fighting game to easy on purpose is a one way ticket toward a bad game all games need a challenge.... Unless the players are given a fair choice to play a mode on easy mode to get through something quick and save time like adventure mode it wasn't enjoyable except for a few moments were funny I just went through adventure mode to unlock all characters and play multiplayer.

If a new SSB game is gonna improve on something it better be the online play, adventure mode needs more work put into the cutscenes visuals and story plot to it was boring except for a few awesome moments.

Many fans complain about some characters beeing "to powerful" this is a total lie fighting games aren't meant to be easy to win all the time this is pointless as people wishing sagat from street figher was weaker. all characters and players gameplay style can be beaten with practice and learning how to bait or trick your enemies.

JustanotherGamer

#108

JustanotherGamer said:

Nintendo was once know for how hard it's games were. In the days of the N.E.S and S.N.E.S a lot of the games were hard. So Super Smash Bros Melee. By being hard is in keeping with Nintendo tradition. besides that's why there are difficulty settings

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