While the world (and, some of you might argue, this site) descends into Pokémon GO fever, it's important to remember that there's more to Nintendo than just catching monsters with your smartphone. The company launches its new console next year, a system which is widely expected to unify the company's portable and domestic interests - making 2017 one of the most important years in Nintendo's recent history.
Nintendo has remained tight-lipped on NX, but Ubisoft CEO Yves Guillemot has been lucky enough to lay eyes on the console and is confident it will make everyone forget about the Wii U's dismal commercial performance:
On the NX, what we have seen is really great, so we think having a new machine coming is going to help the industry to continue to grow and to take lots more casual players back in the industry.
Could NX be the next Wii, a console which not only pulls in traditional players but appeals to non-gamers as well? That would certainly help Nintendo's bottom line but there will no doubt be some who dislike the notion of the company aggresively chasing the "casual dollar" once again.
Let us know what you think by posting a comment below.
[source dualshockers.com]
Comments 103
I hate the word "casual" in relation to the NX while in the same interview he says he's "really excited" about the new XBOX because it'll allow "better graphics". I hope to God NX isn't some weak gimmick.
Think the term casual is wrong. Think it refers to people who just like playing fun games. Not something that requires a 3 or 4 hour session everytime you play. I'm all for that .......
I thought that same quote was reported back when E3 happened or was it a different one?
EDIT: Oh, the last one was about Wii players moving onto NX. Well, it's almost the same thing...
@Late It's different.
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/07/ubisoft_hails_nintendo_as_one_of_the_best_partners_in_the_world
It gives me hope that a big name 3rd party has something good to day about the NX. All we really know so far has been rumors and speculation. It's nice to hear positive things from someone outside of Nintendo that knows what the system is.
Didn't they say the same about Wii U?
Imagine if Nintendo played to their strengths, put some emulators on the thing, and be like "Hey witches, btw, you can play any GB, GBA, DS, NES, SNES, N64, GameCube and Wii game on it for 1-5$". With some good launch titles and 3rd party support, just for the access to the whole DS library digitally and for cheap, it could be worth a buy.
@ChuckYeah i tend not to put too much into those. they're in the biz of selling games so they also sell the hype that's needed to sell those games, even if it's for the hardware. i put it in the same category as when at a concert, the band says that this is the best city/town/penitentiary they've ever played.
Frankly i'm tired of the vague hints and double-talk, can't anybody tell us something concrete about the damn thing already?
A CEO of a game company excited about a new game console? Color me surpised and shocked and amazed and astounded and flabbergast and b l o w n a w a y
It'd be more news worthy if he said it was a piece of garbage. General statements like this dont provide any notable insight aside from publishers being careful not to crap where they eat.
Who needs NX news when you have Pokemon GO!
I just want quality Nintendo first party games AND all the thrid party games showing up on other consoles. Heck, let me dream a bit and please, PLEASE put "Berserk Musou" as a NX launch title alongside Zelda BOTW...
I sure hope they'll reveal it at Gamescom, or in any case before September.
The wait is excruciating! The NX could practically be anything (but I guess it's safe to say that a power house it is not)
@Piersen I'd welcome a monthly subscription service to gain access to a VC library.
I'm not interested in what ubisoft said,as mentioned on one of the reply s they said same thing about Wii u casual gamers.So if that's Nintendos focus again they it will be ano ther flop.Casual gamers don't have any loyalty,it's hardcore gamer that keeps nintendos Hart beating.I have nothing against the casual players but if Nintendo is absolutely serious about shaking the Wii brand off (perception of underpowerd for casuals) they have to put HARDCORE nintendo gamers first to bring them who didn't buy Wii U,And especially if they want to attract Sony fans and Microsoft ones.
Casual - the 'C' word that I don't want to hear in relation to post-Iwata Nintendo. I hope Nintendo isn't going after the casual crowd again - I really, really hope they aren't. And I hope they aren't going to tack on another dumb gimmick. I pray Kimishima takes them into a new direction and gets them out of this gimmick-laden, "new way to play" rut they've been spinning in for the past decade and some. I don't want "innovation" from Nintendo. They don't get it: the thing that differentiates them is that they are NINTENDO: they're quirky, have awesome games, have that weird Nintendo charm... they don't need to chase after these lame tricks the way they do.
Firstly I cannot claim that this 100% accurate but I have a fair amount of trust in the guy that shared this with me. He did after all partially leak Driver waaay back.
So here's some more for the rumour mill. But it comes from an apparent internal memo at Ubisoft! I can't divulge exactly where from as breaking serious embargo, but I believe that what our company has been told sounds somewhat accurate and quite Nintendo like.
Firstly the focus is on getting gamers back and growing a new audience for Nintendo with a potential cross of casual and even pre school with use of an attached app possible drawing tool.
Some games will require emotion testing? Absolutely no idea on this.
The memo then mentions game segments that 'Take over' and play a bit of your game if you get stuck. A bit like a live tutorial and the example given of a child constantly failing a jump! The game would take over - This may be the new way to play?
Sadly there was not too much more that could be gleamed. Although the memo did suggest that the final specs are still a work in progress. Game designers have been told to create 2 versions of tech demo's for quality testing which could mean two differently powered consoles!
Finally only a handful of dev kits have been released, but there a bit of a buzz about a homebrew element using an online resource, and not actually requiring a kit until further testing.
So there you guys a tiny snippet of info which may or may not paint a picture. But it would suggest that Ninty is certainly courting casual gamers.
Games that plat themselves when we screw up? What do you think guys?
Frankly as a Nintendo fan I don't really care about casual and core gamer tags, it all comes down to 'can Nintendo produce the sort of games that made the Wii U so fun for me?' Even the Wii with it's tacked on gimmicks couldn't hide there were some excellent 1st party games. What would make sense is that just because it has a gimmick, doesn't mean it also can't have a basic controller option as well.
@MrGawain @c1pher_c0mplet
I really hate hearing people reduce such an intricate and well thought out invention such as the Wii Remote, as nothing more than a "tacked on gimmick". The Wii Remote was not a gimmick. It was a real, actual controller that worked, and worked very well in some cases (like any other game it depends on the skill of the individual developer).
Now, if it was the DK Bongo drums that was the Wii controller, I might agree. But it wasn't. And motion is not inherently a gimmick simply because it utilizes a different technology for input. Being different is not enough to label something a gimmick.
There were undoubtedly some gimmicky shovelware games, but that just be judged on a game by game basis, not used as a sweeping generalization for the entire system. Maybe it proved to not be as overall efficient as standard dual analog, but it was a respectable effort and the best alternative control scheme we've seen yet.
Rather than say "gimmick", you ought to rather say "unconventional". Gimmick implies it's cheap tactics when all of Nintendo's innovations (be it dual screen handhelds, Wii Remote, gamepad, etc) have been anything but. Whether they worked as well as the designer intended is another debate.
Nothing about that statement fills me with confidence that the NX is going to matter to me.
PS. The Wii didn't really appeal to traditional gamers. It appealed to all the hardcore Nintendo fans and a whole lot of casuals.
In case people still don't realise this, most of the traditional gamers left Nintendo in the Wii generation and went and joined the Sony and Microsoft camps; this is one reason why the follow up to the Wii, the Wii U, totally and utterly flopped, because it didn't manage to grab those casuals again and the traditional gamers where already off playing somewhere else.
That was one of the Wii's biggest long terms flaws: It was great for Nintendo in the short term, but it ultimately wasn't particularly great for anyone who actually gave a crap about great games, outside of Nintendo's first party efforts for the most part, and quality third party support.
Here's hoping Nintendo doesn't make that same mistake(s) again, which will no doubt be great for it (in the short term) but certainly not great for all those gamers like me.
Sigh, i don't want more gimmick nonsense. Just give me a decent system with a standard controller, along with great games.
I didn't like the direction Nintendo took with the Wii and Wii U. It's their worst consoles. The last decent Nintendo system for the living room was the Gamecube.
My purchase of the NX is really down to Nintendo, if they continue adding gimmicks just for the sake of being different with no real benefit, then i won't be buying the system.
Just give me a standard console with current technological specs and standard controls. I would buy this, but not another gimmick machine.
@jimi You're the one who said that. Nobody else.
I agree with you on the Wii remote though.
If they're focused on "casuals", I think it will fail.
Ubisoft said they have unreleased games for Wii U. Will they port those to the NX to bolster the console's starting lineup?
Thing is with Ubisoft, they'll say anything about anything. I bet if you dig, you could find Ubisoft saying the Virtual Boy cures scurvy.
@jimi The way Guillemot is talking seems to imply that with the NX graphics aren't its thing . If it's weak, it will fail.
@Trikeboy Let me have a search. You're going to hate the game that they were talking about and it was just 1 game. It was an awful casual pile of crap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fokfMhdu6lY
the question is, when we (Nintendo Fans/People who like Nintendo Console) well see the thing?
@JaxonH Hey now, don't go hatin' on my DK bongo drums.
Looking like a kids toy @ThanosReXXX
I wouldn't count myself as a casual gamer, so this news raises some concerns for me. However, if it ends up being a console that's great for both casual and hardcore gamers, then it'll be good for everyone.
ubisoft: The nx looks great, will bring back fans.
Only gas just dance planned....
Just reveal NX already!!! I'm tired of the speculation.
Here we go again.. 😣😣😣😣
I have no problem or dislike in the way Nintendo does business. This "casual family friendly" strategy has been their practice since the NES days. Nintendo hasn't changed (I'm saying that in a good way). In my experience I had a lot more fun playing the original Wii than what I had with Wii U.
Nintendo wouldn't be themselves if they acted differently. So, just keep it going Nintendo. I'm all for family friendly experiences.
Every time they open their mouths I get more worried.
I think it's time just to show the dang thing.
Uh ohh...
@MysticX Well I guess Ubisoft would love to tell us more about NX, but they are obviously under some intense NDA agreements so they can't say anything regarding it apart from it's awesome.
At the word "casual" I legitimately shivered.
I hope it will allow account-sharing as the Xbox One does, though. Because that would allow me to give something back.
Oh, just what I didn't want to hear... Focusing on casuals... Again.
The Wii had some freat games, but finding them among the shovelware was a pain, and on top of that, handholding in games was off the charts that gen! (I'm looking at you, Skyward Sword). I hope they mix things up by making sure they get third party support this time...
Wii Three here we come!
Because surely all the non gaming casuals will come running back from smartphones and care about consoles this time right?
<='(
It's one thing to have good software that appeals to casual gamers, but another to tailor the hardware itself to them. Things like Super Guide are harmless and probably worth exploring further, and Animal Crossing: New Leaf was an absolutely brilliant title that appealed to many types of gamer.
The problem is when you simplify the hardware so much it can't actually do what's been built up beforehand. For example, no Nintendo console since the GameCube has had analogue triggers - a feature that many gamers found very enjoyable and useful.
And as for power, it's not just about graphics. Unless a console has parity with the others, it cannot play the multi-format games of that generation, and this is not just about "mature" titles at all. I played a great many 3rd-party, multi-format games on the GameCube.
At present it's a bit hard to guess what reclaiming the casual players actually means. Although i am not looking forward to more controller waggling.
@jimi You are missing the point here .....
The GC failed because it used minidiscs and the publishingfees were to high and because the marketing was crap ....
The WiiU failed because the marketing was crap, the console was extremely weak compared to PS4/XBO, because the tabletcontroller was more or less a useless gimmik (only a hand full of games actually profited from it) and it was hard to programm for because it used a different Architexture than the other two and even the last generation.
The Wii on the other hand succeded, because it was perfectly marketed, with the exact right userbase (casual gamers and non gamers), it was dirt cheap and it had a revolutionary new controller which was hyped to the moon and back ..... 3rd Partys had no other choice but to make their games for the Wii too, they would have made a profit even if just 10% of the userbase bought their games.....
What @SLIGEACH_EIRE meant (I guess) was, if the NX is not way more powerful than the PS4 it will get burried by the competition, because they already startet the TFLOPS pissing match with the Neo and the Scorpio. This (and possibly the crap marketing) can make the NX into a "DOA" (Dead on arival) console, without any big chance on the market.
The industry is driven by the big 3rd partys, not the consumer. If they don't like your console, they can afford to just skip it with their games. If your console has no 3rd party games it won't sell much. If it dosn't sell other developers will skip your console ...... it's that easy ....
@Josaku Precisely.
Eww, he said the bad word -_- If the nx being another gimmick heavy system that is underpowered compared to the composition, I'm sorry to say considering how much I love Nintendo, but even a great game like Zelda won't entice me to fall into another system like that from Nintendo.
Nintendo really needs to show the system off now, all the speculation is starting to make ppl worry about the system more than getting them excited about it.
This is a good thing. People wanting Nintendo to create a machine similar to latest XBOX/PS are wrong, there is no market for that anymore. If the concept is unique and the new console is popular enough, we can hope for third parties to create unique experiences or unique ports like they did for the Wii from time to time (not enough) and how they did for Arkahm City, Mass Effect III, Deux Ex, Lego Undercover, Rayman Legends, Zombi U.
@skwiddly ADD people? Games get an hour absolute maximum and my full attention maybe half of that time.
@Apple-sensei Oh, i'm not blaming Ubisoft here, but the whole "We have a secret and we won't tell you"-schtick is starting to kill the anticipation for me...
@JaxonH Gimmick doens't mean it's necessarily a bad thing though. The Wii Remote was a gimmick though, it was the selling point of the Wii; that's what a gimmick is. The same is true about the GamePad. The Wii and Wii U used their controllers to sell the console; hence they are gimmicks, regardless of what people think of them.
@Project_Dolphin You seem to be ignoring the fact that those other consoles are still seeing support even now, whereas Wii basically died a death the moment Wii U was announced. Whether you get it or not, that kind of stuff makes a huge difference to most gamers beyond the most blindly loyal Nintendo fans—a near ten year lifespan vs a 5 or so year lifespan (even when the machine is one of the most successful consoles of all time).
And I've said this many times before too, I'm calling out Nintendo's particular issues because this is a Nintendo site; it doesn't mean the other guys were perfect, but if I wanted to call them out I'd do it on a Sony or Microsoft site for the most part.
Also, I never claimed the Wiimote was the cause of all the Wii's issues; I simply claimed the Wii had a lot of issues. The Wiimote caused some of the Wii's issues, but its problems go far beyond the Wiimote—and Ubisoft claiming NX is going to "bring casuals back in" just makes me worry it might end up suffering many of the same issues as Wii. I'm complaining because Wii was disappointing in so many ways it's not even funny.
@SLIGEACH_EIRE Was that the unannounced game? haha.I was just thinking about that myself then I saw your comment.They made out as if it was something special.
@jimi
First of all ... the GC ...
You seem to ignor how popular the consoles were .... the PSP sold 80mil units, while the GC onle got 21mil.
The driving force behind a port to a specific console is the profit that can be made on said platform .... even if it costs twice as much to port it to the PSP, the installbase is 4 times that of the GC and so the possible profit is much bigger on PSP than on GC.
That is why the GC did not get much 3rd party support.
You want to know, why there were so many multi generation games in the early life of the PS4/XBO? You do know, that the PS3/XB360 were nearly 10 years on the market and it was realy easy to port games to them? You do know, that even to this day there are many XB360/PS3 consoles still in use? That's why their online services work to this day.
Yes, it was not only faster and easier to develop games for PS3/XB360 but it was safer too compared to the WiiU and even the PS4/XBO.
This is why nearly every game had a XB360/PS3 but no WiiU port.
You didn't even try to aproach the points I made about the Wii didn't you?
The only thing I said, was, that 3rd Partys had no choice here, because it was the best selling console in that generation.
I know, that most of the 3rd party offerings were crap, that comes with the territory of being "the best selling console of a particular generation" ..... the PS2 too had a crapton of shovelwarwe ....
The Wii got less 3rd party support, because
1. it sold less units
2. it's competition was actual competition which were actual good selling consoles (both 80mil units)
Capcom are idiots ... they showed that multiple times ..... not as bad as Konami, but still ....
@Project_Dolphin
Gamers .... is quite the misleading terminology ....
let's say consumer ok? not every consumer is a gamer in the sense, that he/she is really invested in the games ....
I say this, because this industry seems to be driven by hype. The generation of sellingpotential without actually showing what you are offering ..... The Wii and PS4 used this perfectly to only name the latest in console-history ....
I can say, that 3rd partys drive the consol industry, because they are the people generating the hype and they are the people who only do things, that don't need much money to be developed and can generate as much hype (=money) as possible. As long as a franchise can generate hype it is reused and so gets a sequal every year (FIFA, BF, COD .... what ever). If a frachise can't generate any or not enough hype it is terminated.
This leads into a releas-shedule which is not lead by the consumer who buy the stuff they do, but by a simple equation which takes generatable hype and used money/time into account ....
The gaming industry is so big, that there is a market for everyone and everything that you throw out there will be bought .... just look at the history of "Evolve" and how it ended for the consumer and the producer to see this in action ..... FIFA is another great exsample ....
@jimi Word.
Give me Beyond Good and Evil 2 Ubi and all is forgiven. Seriously though if they aren't making games why are they talking?
@rjejr Hahaha.... don't knock the bongos til you've tried them, I'd say. I've had some great fun together with friends playing the various games that used them.
As for the topic at hand: (just to be clear: not saying you said that, just responding to the article)
I don't care what any third party has to say about casual or not, they can't say much because of NDA's and all that, so they just spout the usual so-called "positive" nonsense about a Nintendo platform. "Yeah, sure, it is going to be great" and then still have to put their money where there mouth is, which I still have to see any proof of, since I don't count Just Dance as something that qualifies...
Instead of actually adding to the positive and upward spiral that Nintendo is now in, thanks to their positive branding because of the new Zelda, Pokemon GO and the NES Mini, they are actually degrading them towards people once again thinking that this is going to be Wii 2 or Wii HD, no matter how many times people that are actually in the know, like mr. Kimishima and mr. Miyamoto say that the NX line of devices is a FULL and COMPLETE departure from everything that the Wii and Wii U represented and did.
But I guess it's easier to go with the masses. Meanwhile, I'll just remain my own positive and carefully optimistic self....
@c1pher_c0mplet NX is very much Iwata's baby. Kimishima is just carrying out the plans Iwata laid out.
@DarkKirby Because surely core gamers will jump ship from Sony and Microsoft and come running to Nintendo this time, right? Works both ways.
@Kirk "most of the traditional gamers left Nintendo in the Wii generation and went and joined the Sony and Microsoft camps"
Much like the casuals leaving for mobile and not coming back, the same is true for the core - they're with Sony and, to a far lesser extent, Microsoft, and they're more than likely never coming back regardless of what Nintendo does.
Most people, especially on here, will argue the former, but are then in denial of reality when it comes to the latter, primarily because they know that it means Nintendo is doomed to being niche - a box only for the currently dwindling Nintendo fanbase.
@MADGAZ Interesting concept, and it would certainly qualify as a new way to play, but even if that is integrated, I don't think that would be the entire "gimmick".
And I do wonder how easy it would be to program that into a game, since the console is supposed to be so easy to develop for.
@jimi
again ... these consoles were on the market FOR 10 YEARS at this pont .... developers KNEW how to develop or port games to it, that's why it was easier and saver to port games to those systems instead of the WiiU ......
The PS3 got 3rd Party support while it sold bad, because Sony was supporting developers to ensure they got the ports .....
The WiiU uses (like any other console on PPC) a slightly tweaked version of PPC to fit the hardware better ....
Just because it's PPC at the base dose not mean it's easy to develop for it ... To top everything off and make your "it's easy to port to WiiU" (I said the opposite btw) the sinking ship it actually is ...
You do know, that the rest of the hardware should be considered while programming for a console do you? What's the biggest difference between PS360 and WiiU? Yes, the tablet controller which Nintendo wanted 3rd partys to actually use .... see the whole Ubisoft "Watchdogs" debacle ....
So yes, it was quite difficult to develop a game for the WiiU despite the seemingly similar architecture which was tweaked quite a bit to fit the WiiU's hardware .....
At the point the WiiU/PS4/XBO all were on the market you had the old veterans everybody knew the in's and out's off, the scaled down PCs (PS4/XBO) and the "same but extremely different" different kid which showed in it's time alone on the market, that it could not catch up to the Wii (gamedroughts, marketing fails)
So again, why the heck should a 3rd party developer without any knolage take the huge risk, to develop games for a platform which seemd to have a very slow start and is hard to develop for? Why would you invest in a console which could not deliver the profits the others could deliver?
It's easy (and we saw this) .... they didn't take the risk ....
And about the Wii .... being popular dose not guarantees "good" 3rd party support ..... it only guarantees the support, most of it will be bad, but there will be good stuff in this heep of games. As seen on the PS2. In terms of the number of games ... these two are not that different tbqh ....
seen here:
http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/4/playstation-2/
http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/2/wii/
The Wii showed, that IF you have a gimmik that captures a wide range of peoples interests and is more or less easy to develop for ... then you don't need AAA-3rd partys. nothing more ...
The WiiU on the other hand showed, that your console WILL FAIL if it is not supported by 3rd partys and your gimmik dose not fit the above discription ....
The Wii got less support from 3rd partys in general, because the consumers on those consoles bought way more content that the ones on the Wii, you can see this if you look at the total sold software on those 3 consoles. The Wii was the best selling one, so no-one could really afford to ignore it, but the other two brought way higher profit margines to the table which lead to good support ..... this and MS and Sony bought ports and exclusives, because they could ....
You can see this here:
http://www.vgchartz.com/platforms/
As said before, the PS360 sold each 80mil consoles in 10 years and the consumers seemd to be quite loyal to the platform and so bought more games .....
You can see this in the last postet links .... 20mil units less sold, but nearly as much software ....
The Wii U was killed by a series of bad decisions, and I'm mixed about the NX, I'm very excited for 1 side and very worried by the other side.
Let's just hope Ubisoft is making games for its release.
I love crazy new Japan made inventions. Bring your craziest idea, Nintendo!
Just Dance 2020 on Wii 3 confirmed.
There’s no way the current “hardcore” market can sustain 3 different home platforms, we’ve seen this during the GC, PS2, Xbox era, and now in this current generation, just check X Box One sales and compared them to 360 sales, in 3 years the 360 sold almost twice as much as One, the industry is changing, you adapt, or you’ll eventually be left behind.
"is going to help the industry to continue to grow and to take lots more casual players back in the industry” This doesn’t mean focusing on casuals as some have pointed out, this mean industry growth which is something consoles need to stay in the market, Nintendo understands this, that’s why they are aiming for an E rated console... meaning it’s for everyone (not just for hardcore or casuals, both are included in the E, think Mario Kart, or Smash, both E, both perfect for casual fun, both great for competitive play), just like DS and Wii were, those two being in the top 3 best selling consoles of all time.
If you remember the DS era, there were those games call Touch Generation, have you ever wondered why that label disappeared? Nintendo understood that labeling things was a way to separate the market, it was a huge mistake, that’s why it was removed, since Nintendo’s current goal is to unify the market. Can you imagine a world where mobiles gamers joined consoles gamers and viceversa?
My guess is that NX will use mobiles devices in several fun ways. Imagine a Pokémon Stadium game where you can transfer your Pokémon Go creatures into an HD world to watch them battle in and amazing stadium, and also transfer your creatures from Pokémon Sun & Moon, unifying both worlds of gaming into a single platform. Same goes for something like Zelda BotW, instead of having a gamepad, you can play it with a regular controller, but also, have the map available all the time in your mobile device of choice. There’s no need for a dual screen console if you manage to connect everyones cellphone into a single device, you can have multiple screens with their own power to create all kind of crazy games without making people expend a single extra penny. That’s what Nintendo is trying to do, and that’s what Pokémon Go and BotW told us, casual fun game VS a hardcore amazing deep world where you can spend hours.
@c1pher_c0mplet I think the non-gimmick console ship has sailed unfortunately. Nintendo has repeatedly said the NX is a new concept, and this interview doesn't do much to change that either. Plus there's a Just Dance coming out for it, so that implies some sort of motion control is involved.
IMO, Nintendo is going to need a hell of a launch lineup to convince me to invest in another Nintendo console at launch. I felt seriously burned by the Wii U.
@Project_Dolphin "The Last of Us is a bad movie masquerading as a video game."
You lost me there.
I'm up for whatever crazy new invention Nintendo has!
@Project_Dolphin You don't have to be impressed by it, but they're getting it. And, while Wii U will almost literally fall off the face of the Earth once NX comes out--unless it does something that could give the Wii U more life--you can be pretty sure the competition's consoles will be seeing strong third party support for many years to come, even after the next-gen consoles come out. And that is not something to just sniff off lightly. It's just one of the many reasons why Nintendo consoles in recent times simply have no represented as strong value propositions as the competition.
You're right though, the list does absolutely go on.
And, I've not blamed the Wiimote for any developer's inability to make a good game. I've blamed the numerous issues with Wii overall as one of the reasons why developers didn't make games for it in general, and certainly not many good games. But, to be clear, there are still issues with the Wiimote itself in terms of just putting off many developers and whatever else. It has its strengths too though.
@IceClimbers Indeed.
I mean, there's no reason Nintendo couldn't get a whole lot of the core gamers back, but not if it keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.
And those casuals really aren't very reliable, even if you do treat them well for the most part.
@rjejr
Hey, happy birthday!
As my gift to you, I played some Jungle Beat yesterday (seriously I did). Since I now modded my vWii mode to play all 67 GameCube games in my collection from SD, with a Wii U Pro Controller, upscaled to 1080p, I decided it was high time I make good on that promise. It's a very interesting game.
I'm getting tired of hearing of "casuals" and "gimmicks" all the time.
This is going nowhere. Mainly because of the way many people in this comment section, as well as many people elsewhere on the same topic of discussion, use the word "casual" nowadays. It no longer refers to people who don't play much. It refers more to:
People who actually care about video games. People who play a lot of games, of different types and on different platforms. Alone and in groups.
By opposition to brainless sociopaths who play one single type of games, on one single platform. Who treat said platform as if it was a religion and cannot resist the urge to violently assault anyone who does not worship the same god. Who believe to be a superior being only for owning a more expansive rig than others, sometimes even drifting at the edge of fanaticism or fascism.
We don't need that, thank you very much. If we are expecting good experience, fun, surprises and novelty, it will be delivered. That is what Nintendo has been doing for years, and that is what will happen again in the future.
Saying a console should be dedicated to the "hardcore" is like saying TVs should be exclusively for those who watch sport. All the others do not disserve a TV.
If you are afraid of the word "casual", if you think "gimmick" is somehow an insult, or if you need a bigger computer to feel satisfied, maybe you should simply... you know... consider taking some distance with Nintendo. Feel free to look down on people who don't share your opinion, or who do not display as many little dots at once on their screen. But do it somewhere else.
In the mean time, we'll be having fun with BotW, Splat2n and Pikmin 4. If it has to be with a heartbeat/hand moisture-sensing controller, so be it.
"Casuals" and "Gimmicks" seems to be the trigger word.
@Project_Dolphin I agree, it shouldn't be just about the business. And that's generally what I mean when I say the third party support on Wii was crap. Yeah, there were actually quite a lot of third party games on the system before it died a very quick death, but it was mostly shovelware and gimmicky crap, like you said, unfortunately. That's not what I want to see on NX, and Ubisoft's recent quote does nothing to calm any fears I might have of it happening again.
@JaxonH Thanks. I guess that makes us even, b/c I took DKCTF out of the library last week. Then I watched my kid beat that level in 1 try, then died on the next level, then returned it to the library. I'll get it later in the month when we have more time.
@Project_Dolphin The problem here, as I see it, is that you are considering a game that takes probably less than 6 months to make, is churned out likely multiple times a year, and is full of extremely shallow and usually quite clunky design and gameplay, is somehow the same kind of "shovelware" as a game that took like 6 years to make, with a budget and resources tens times as high, and with a level of depth and breadth that is on a whole other level.
There's actual shovelware, and then there's your examples of "shoveware", where you're just lumping the likes of The Division, Watch Dogs, The Last of Us, and Destiny in the same league as actual shovelware, or at least stuff that's just generally mass produced meh, which is a bit of a joke really.
You might not realise this, but I think it's you that has some major bias and distortion of reality going on here.
The Let's Dance games are basically shovelware, although certainly not the worst of it (RCXMDXX, or whatever he's called, is often guilty of churning out REAL shovelware; but at least he's not a developer with multiple billions of dollars and near-endless resources at his disposal, so he kinda has an excuse). The likes of The Division, Watch Dogs, The Last of Us, and Destiny, however, don't even come close to being shovelware, regardless of them not being perfect or the kinds of games you personally like.
I want actual quality on the NX too, but let's be honest here: These big AAA games are far, far more likely to get close to providing that than yearly (at least) churned out casual junk like Just Dance. And, that is in no way saying that I think more casual experiences can't be great games too, because they can (Wii Play: Tanks, Wii Sports: Bowling, Nintendogs, Brain Training, Cut The Rope, Tetris, World of Goo, Kirby's Epic Yarn, etc.), but there's great casual games and not so great casual games too (anything Petz, anything Kardashian, Farmvile, any of those App coin grabbers, Pet Baby, E.T. etc).
So, let's start talking about actual shovelware here, if that's what we're meant to be talking about. And, sadly, there was plenty of that on Wii—maybe not the worst ever, but more than on most of the other platforms from my recollection. And there was a distinct lack of the great AAA third party games too.
Yeah, until Ubisoft chickens out yet again
@Project_Dolphin But it also makes the incentive to make them good much higher too, especially for these big developers who actually want to make money on their games. If a game can be churned out with minimal effort and make an easy profit, you're far less likely to bother too much about making it the best it can be, than if a game takes six years to make at a budget of hundreds of millions. That's just simple logic.
And, for an indie developer, their little game that maybe cost a few tens of thousand of pounds is often the equivalent of Ubisoft's multi-million dollar titles—often meaning total collapse for these indies if the title fails to sell—hence they too also try to make them the best they can be.
Shovelware basically means churned out crap*, and if a game costs one of these massive publishers peanuts and only takes a handful of guys to make, and can be resold every few months or so also, it's usually more likely to be some churned out crap, especially when it's licensed too; not always, but generally speaking.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shovelware
Ubisoft is pronounced "yubi", right? As in, Japanese word for "finger"?
This is interesting. Could Nintendo have learned from the mistakes of Wii U and 3DS?
@Kirk Just Dance is a great series. You obviously need to play it.
@Grumblevolcano I still don't have it in Jamaica : /
@Mahe If you're into gimmicky casual stuff where your actions hardly even register (especially on the Wii/Wii U versions) so you might as well just be dancing to karaoke without the interactive video game part of it at all, sure. I mean, I'm certainly not arguing that dancing to good music isn't fun.
For all the people that said that the fact that only Just Dance was announced for NX at E3 regarding third parties did not mean we had to worry (including staffers like gcunit).
@Project_Dolphin Dude, I think you seriously have everything back-to-front. And, I think at this point you're simply far too committed to your apparent hatred for AAA developers/games to see it. You really need to stop confusing a few bugs in these big AAA titles with them being bad games.
If you actually think games like The Division, Destiny, and The Last of US are bad games, you are literally clueless about what constitutes a good or bad game, or you're just really, really biased in your views. You not liking these games does not translate into them being bad games, or anywhere close to it. A game like The Last of Us doesn't get a 95 on metacritic, with only a single review dropping below the positive scoring range, based on some kind of mass blind-fanboyism for movie-like presentation and gorgeous visuals only. It's just absurd to believe that's the case.
I don't disagree that these big publishers know that presentation and graphics are important in getting lots of mainstream gamers excited about their products out-the-gate, be they good or bad, but that doesn't automatically equate to them only making pretty looking but bad games as a standard course of business, which is what you seem to think. I mean, if you seriously believe the developers of the three games I just mentioned weren't trying to create 90+ scoring games, then again, you are truly clueless. And, that's not me trying to insult you and cause an argument, or whatever; that's me stating what I believe would be a literal fact in this case.
Here's a more objective list of actual crap games:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_notable_for_negative_reception
Here's a more objective list of actual good games:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_considered_the_best
Don't confuse the two just because you have some hate of modern AAA titles or whatever.
I mean, I don't like the GTA games, and they often have loads of bugs and stuff, but that doesn't make them anywhere close to being bad games; they're just not my cup of tea.
And, I generally hate the Call of Duty games, but if I'm being real honest here, they're actually well made games, which simply cater to a very specific type of player that's not me.
At this point, it's pretty obvious that NX will have less third party support than Wii had, about the same than Wii U, or probably less (without a decent launch support). Wii was killed by Nintendo in its sixth year, because it was under-powered so Nintendo released a Wii HD which turned out to be Wii U, which was also under-powered and was killed by Nintendo in its fourth year, when games stopped coming and Zelda was switch to a dual release with the optimal version being for another new console, which is also under-powered according to what Nintendo and Ubisoft have revealed. It sounds like a joke but it's the reality. Nintendo said that technical specifications are not important when asked about NX and Ubisoft announced Just Dance NX and thinks that NX will bring some casual players back, something I have serious doubts about with all the casual gaming devices currently available and that did not exist when DS and Wii became a gaming craze.
You have to be blind (or work for Nintendo or make money of defending Nintendo) to think Nintendo is doing great or considering their fans (like myself) in recent years but, not only that, they are not doing great in the market except for a few random hits (and Pokemon Go is not a Nintendo game for a Nintendo device, Nintendo just owns one third of The Pokemon Company). Most importantly, Nintendo's reputation is going nose-dive. So what are they doing next? Are they going to focus on excellent software for new dedicated consoles that are already a success like PS4 or Xbox One? Are they going to release a powerful dedicated gaming system that could bring old fans and traditional players back? No to both possibilities, they are focusing on mobile phone software and yet another exclusive under-powered dedicated gaming console called NX that arguably will have little third party support and will be replaced by another crazy ideas in a few years. This is the Nintendo of today that some people insist on promote.
I'm not to worried about this, Its not like something like a "waggle" controller could lure casual gamers away from their phones and tablets. For it pull those people away from those things the NX would have to be very very special.
I'm choosing to believe that "It'll bring lots of people into the industry" means it'll integrate with mobile gaming. Like some NX games will be playable on mobile devices and it will people from their phones and tablets to the NX to access more games.
@Kirk You just need to git gud.
@Mahe Yeah!
@Project_Dolphin Because your assertions about all these AAA games are not just you expressing your opinion; you're stating things as though they are objective fact. And I'm showing you a very simple example of how [as close to] objective fact contradicts your subjective assertions*. Simple really.
Yes, I have played Just Dance. I played it on Wii. And I thought it was total garbage. The songs were of course fun, but the game isn't automatically fun because the songs are fun. The game, at least the Wii version (and presumably the Wii U version too, seeing as it uses the same control /interaction method), was clunky crap that registered your motions/actions so arbitrarily that you might as well just dance around without touching the controller at all. That's not good game design; it's casual junk that ignorant gamers mistake for good game design.
If you want to talk about shovelware, Just Dance is a great example imo. Ubisoft is indeed "shovelling out" those games; 27 of them since 2009 (and they're not exactly screaming "quality"): Just Dance (video game series)
And, let me put it out there again: Most of those people that think Just Dance is a good game are too ignorant to know any better. You could turn off any interaction at all and just pretend they were playing, and they would literally believe it was just as fun and that they were actually playing it. But, you seem incapable of grasping that some people are simply clueless casuals who ultimately don't know crap. They're the type of people who think pressing a single button for infinity is a fun game, as long as you play a "ting" sound and display a "Congratulations! +100" popup every once in a while (I'm using terrible mobile games as a reference point here). They are basically incapable of judging what is and isn't a good game.
*If you understand that you can subjectively judge something—which clearly you do, because you're doing it when you claim all these AAA games are bad—then you have to also understand that this means there are objective measures by which things can be judged (How is it fun? Why is it not good? What measure/metric are you using to call it shovelware?). And therefore, when 99 out of 100 people have used very similar metrics/measures to judge something as good, even though this is contrary to your own judgement, you just need to accept that your opinion maybe isn't very true to the objectively reality of the situation.
If 99 out of 100 people tell you something is red, but you see it as blue, it's almost certainly red and you are simply colour blind—not, it's blue to you and red to everyone else. That's not how the world works; you don't get to say you're not colour blind just because that's what you'd like to believe personally. Or, do so—you crazy person. lol
Metacritic is simply a better indicator/measure of a game's more objective quality than you (because it aggregates multiple professional opinions together and then averages them out to remove outliers)—irrespective of each person being entitled to their own personal opinions and tastes of whatever games—and that's just a fact you're maybe going to have to accept.
@Project_Dolphin Well, it's as close to objective fact as a bunch of reviews based on professional opinions can be, and a whole lot more so than your singular subjective opinions.
I just don't really like the gameplay in GTA games. I'm not really into wandering around a huge open world shooting pedestrians or jumping in a car to drive from A to B and that kind of thing. I'm actually not a very open world type of gamer in general, unless there's still some clear path/goal to be followed when I decide I'm bored of just playing around in the world. And I found most of the missions too scripted and forced to really enjoy them.
That analogy does apply. There are literally specific rules to creating a video game (good practices), including the art (as in, there are established rules and techniques for creating art, and the quality of execution of such techniques is largely used to judge it by professional art critics—once you go beyond just "Do you personally like it?"), and you can judge every element of a game, and the whole too, objectively as such*. It's just that most people don't judge things based on the established rules and techniques (good practices), including most professional reviewers; they largely just tell you what they liked and score the game based on their own experience with it and little else.
Much like you appear to do.
*As an example: You might personally like controls that literally don't work properly or as intended, but they are objectively bad/broken controls (as determined by good practice game design rules for controls). So, while people with a clue would call them bad/broken controls, you might say something like "I thought they were kinda fun." Objectively bad controls, subjectively fun.
@Project_Dolphin Just want to clarify that I already edited my comment to remove the "sandbox" parts before you replied. I meant the open-world nature of the GTA games rather than the sandbox elements. I actually love sandbox gameplay in general, but I didn't think properly about what I was writing as I put it down and so I fixed it (See; this is why I edit my comments). I just don't care much for large open worlds in general, unless they are handled exceptionally well, in a way that resonates with me.
You do seem to have this terrible habit of not being able to separate someone's own subjective and individual opinion of a game with how the game can be judged in and of itself, on its own merits (based on standard rules and best practices of game design), and more objectively.
So, no; I do not think the GTA games are bad; in fact, I think they are largely very well made (even with the bugs). I simply don't like them personally. Those two things are not one and the same.
The rules are usually determined by the people who created these things from the ground up in the first place, and then the rules are both tweaked and reaffirmed over time as people realise they do in fact work and give the desired results/outcome reliably. These people who came up with the rules established best practices so others could reproduce the same results without having to learn everything from scratch again every time. You know, just like how thousands of years ago we established the rules for writing (Start a sentence with a capital letter, and finish with a full stop.), and if you follow them well your writing can be judged as good, and if you don't it can be judged as bad. But, each individual is still free to enjoy your story exactly as much as they want.
And again, I think those gamers who consider the controls in Just Dance as good—and let's talk specifically about the Wii/Wii U versions in here since this is a Nintendo site—are basically clueless as to what constitutes good controls. Not saying they can't have fun. I am saying they're having fun playing a pretty crappy game (in terms of things like the control and gameplay mechanics, which I personally consider two of the keys to any great game).
This kind of stuff isn't rocket science.
Edit: If what @Mahe says is true, and they've greatly improved the Just Dance games since the Wii version (the only one I've played), I will be willing to concede they may be better games now. Although, I'd have to play them myself to say such a thing and actually mean it.
@Kirk It sounds like you may have played Just Dance 1 on Wii. That was sort of a "prototype" for the series, and the games improved by leaps and bounds by every iteration, year by year. Just Dance 2015 is a very different game from Just Dance 1.
As someone who's been gaming for well over 20 years, I'll place the Just Dance series among the best videogames and best videogame series ever made. Just not based on Just Dance 1, but the later and better games.
Also, a lot of those Just Dance releases you linked to are compilations or regional releases, like the Just Dance Wii series for Japan. In those, Ubisoft together with Nintendo took special care to localize the series for Japan.
@Mahe Yeah, it was the Wii version I played. And it's basically the Wii and Wii U versions I'd be talking about in here for the most part, seeing as it's a Nintendo site.
So, has the Wii U version figured out how to use the Wiimote(s) much more effectively? Because, from what I gathered, via an admittedly very quick scan of an article, it uses the same controls as the Wii version (the Wiimote).
Or are you talking about Just Dance on other systems here?
@Project_Dolphin I dunno . . .
Let's say for example that someone comes up with a rule in game design that says when you push up on a controller (d-pad/analog stick) the object should move up, which makes sense and works as expected—and let's assume everyone now follows this rule for the next 20 years—and then someone else suddenly decides that when you push up the object should move left instead, but only once every three pushes.
The original rule works well and makes sense. The new rule still technically works but it simply does not make sense, and 1 in 3 times it would even feel to the player like it wasn't responding properly at all.
So, if we're judging stuff based on things like logic, intuitiveness, common sense, satisfaction, best practice, etc., we can objectively say that doing it the first way is good game design and doing the other way is bad game design—given the premise that one way has long been established as a proven and tested method that works very well (which everyone has now come to understand and expect), and the other isn't and doesn't. Unless of course the designer also intends to reprogram the minds and habits of everyone who plays his games too, just so the new isn't completely wrong to them.
Something like that.
It's just a random example of how it's possible to use well established rules to inform good game design, and how to potentially create bad games if you don't understand those rules and just do everything willy nilly just because. It's taken around 40 years to figure out many of the things that actually work well/best in game design. and that's true of the art, music, animation, level design, controls, gameplay design, story, etc.
And, if I were to objectively judge the first control example vs the second, I would matter of fact judge the first higher/better than the second—and rightly so. Ergo, I would say that objectively speaking the first is good and the second is bad—as judged according to the established rules, best practices, and general principles of good game design—but, each person is still free to like whatever the hell they want.
@Project_Dolphin 1. I agree with what you are saying in principle, and I have noting against trying new things and stuff; it's all just got to be done right. Star Fox Zero tried something new for example, and I think it totally failed for the most part—and both the reviews and sales largely support that assertion. So, it's important that good practice isn't just thrown out the window for the sake of trying something new and almost for that reason alone; it's got be done with an understanding of why something worked well in the past and why something new may or may not work now.
2. I think there's a lot more standards in gaming than you realise, and I'm saying that as a game designer, as someone who's worked at both Rare and Rockstar North, and even as a trained artist & animator too. There's lots of best practices that have been established over the years, right from the very first gaming systems, but even before that across all the mediums that exist within most video games, from art and music to writing and graphic design, and even things like user interface design.
And again, I'm not talking about the fun you have on a personal level; I'm talking about how the game creators actually design and make the games at a fundamental level. Most of the greatest games were created by people who knew what makes a great game, and the stuck to it for the most part, with few exceptions. Most of the bad games were made by people who didn't quite get it, or the just make stupid decisions for stupid reasons, even though the really should have known better—like with Star Fox Zero.
A whole lot of casuals clearly do enjoy Just Dance, but I still say they are largely badly designed games (well, talking about the Wii version specifically); it's just that most casuals don't know any better, and the fun they're having largely isn't because of the game design but the situation created around it. You could turn off the game and turn on a karaoke, and they'd have just as much fun. And, if you did that but kept the game running in the background on the TV, they'd probably still think they were playing the game and it was the game that was providing the fun. It's not; it's dancing to cool tunes and being judged for it, in a way that's not too serious.
It's like saying Pokemon Go is a great game just because it's hugely popular. it's not; it's actually a pretty crap game, and it suffers from issues left, right, and centre, including with basic stuff like controls. But, it's great fun to run around outside, looking for stuff, and socialising with other people. Don't, however, mistake that for the underlying game being brilliantly made—that's simply not the case. It's not some 9/10 game. It's maybe a 6/10 game getting by on it's social hook and popularity more than anything else. Although, one could argue that's part of the game design; not me though. Not intrinsically. The game could have just as well be a total flop and no one played it, and that social aspect simply wouldn't exist, because it's not actually part of the actual game. It's a byproduct. Just like being cool in school was a byproduct of playing Pokemon games back in the day—they, however, also happened to be awesome games in their own right too.
@Project_Dolphin Oh **** off regarding "I still haven't shown how anyone knows if something is done right". I'm wasting my breath on you at this point. I'm not here to keep trying to explain the same basic things to you time and time again because you're too ignorant to grasp some basic concepts. Get to ****!
@Project_Dolphin This conversation is over, but you go ahead and keep convincing yourself, and maybe a few other weak minded people, that you're not clueless in this particular regard.
@Project_Dolphin See above.
@Kirk
It's totally useless man. It's like arguing at a wall with this guy; I've done it myself. The moment you say anything critical of Nintendo, you end up in an endless roundabout argument that no amount of logic can resolve. Best to just bury the hatchet and move on.
@Project_Dolphin
Guaranteed, if we were in some alternate universe, and the Last of Us were a Nintendo-developed exclusive, you'd be singing its praises.
@Project_Dolphin
Not even remotely hurt, actually. Just pointing out your bias.
Anyway, peace out.
@FlaygletheBagel Totally agree with you, on both points.
I have said it many times before: Nintendo won't go after the core-gamers with the upcoming console, they will go for the casuals AGAIN!!
@BiasedSonyFan,
I have all the right to cry when they come up with all kinds of casual stuff (with Amiibo nonsense), while they could also make a proper new Metroid, F-Zero etc.
Maybe the NX is entirely focused on small children. Recently there have been those videos especially targeted to children, and the jingle you hear in recent commercials sound like a Toys r us commercial jingle.
I hope they try to roll with the big boys again (Sony, Microsoft) but I just don't see it happen.
@Kirk Talking about all the motion-controlled versions of Just Dance really, but specifically on Wii and Wii U, the Wiimote controls were gradually improved year by year (at least until JD2015). The biggest difference is between JD1 and JD2, but you'll notice improvements in later games too.
@Mahe Well that's good at least.
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