News Article

Nintendo Opens Legal Proceedings Against HackYourConsole.com

Posted by Thomas Whitehead

Continuing the fight against piracy

The Wii U and 3DS have so far maintained robust security, against flashcards and illegal modding, in comparison to the DS family of systems and the Wii. Both of the last-gen systems were easily cracked, and to date both current systems have stayed secure, which is perhaps particularly impressive in the case of the 3DS. There has been an attempt at a flashcard for the 3DS, but that was blocked by a system update earlier in the summer and is yet to go to market.

Considering the problems with illegal game distribution in the past, it's clear that maintaining the security of its current systems is a priority for Nintendo. That's not to say that the company is finished tackling those that benefited from piracy in previous generations, as Nintendo has distributed a press release outlining legal proceedings that have been opened against HackYourConsole.com in the U.S.

Full details are in the following press release.

In the ongoing global fight against video game piracy, Nintendo of America Inc., has filed a lawsuit in the Southern District of Florida against the owner of HackYourConsole.com. The site blatantly promotes and sells unauthorized Nintendo games along with devices and services that circumvent the security in the Nintendo DS system and the Wii console.

The operator of HackYourConsole.com has developed a global business focused on selling unauthorized copies of Nintendo games and game-copying devices (such as the R4 device) used to circumvent the technological protection measures contained in the Nintendo DS family of hand-held systems. The website operator, for a fee, also provides services to hack and modify the Wii console and allow the play of illegal software.

HackYourConsole.com also claims to be an authorized distributor for the yet-to–be-released 3DS Gateway cards. The Gateway device is promoted as operating similar to the R4 game copier for the Nintendo DS, which facilitates the play of illegally downloaded games. Game copying devices, such as the R4, severely undermine the sales of video games created by thousands of developers.

“Piracy on the Nintendo DS system has a huge impact on games sales,” said Jools Watsham, co-founder and director of Renegade Kid. “It can affect everyone involved, including the many honest players out there. If independent studios, like ours, are unable to recoup the money they invest into game development, through the sales of their games, we will unfortunately see fewer independent games developed in the future.”

Illegal copying of video game software is an international problem that continues to stifle the growth of the creative development community. Companies such as Nintendo, various law enforcement authorities and trade organizations such as the Entertainment Software Association, continue to take aggressive steps to prevent the proliferation of these devices on a global scale.

To report game copiers, illegal Nintendo software or other piracy-related activities, please contact Nintendo at 800-255-3700 or piracyscene@noa.nintendo.com.

For more information about Nintendo’s fight against piracy, visit http://ap.nintendo.com.

Let us know your thoughts in the comments below.

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User Comments (108)

Tasuki

#1

Tasuki said:

Its good to see Nintendo go after people like this. Chalk up another victory for Nintendo.

SilverArrow

#2

SilverArrow said:

Well, well, well. It started out as a way to unleash console's full potential. Then piracy took over homebrew as number one. Bet you a million people will get mad at them for "protecting their hardware from pirates."

WaLzgiStaff

#3

WaLzgi said:

Too soon to say Tasuki. We'll see what happens...

@Dimetri: Well if they sell unauthorized software, they are liable for damages

Fazermint

#5

Fazermint said:

@LzQuacker
I checked, that site doesn't actually sell games. They just sell DS flashcarts that you can play ROMs on. Still likely to lose the case, of course.

JoostinOnline

#6

JoostinOnline said:

"Both of the last-gen systems were easily cracked" <--I don't know about the DS systems, but that's definitely not true for the Wii. It took a couple years of hard work before homebrew was running on the Wii. There is nothing wrong with homebrew either, there is a big difference between homebrew and piracy.

Emblem

#7

Emblem said:

Well if d/l figures are anything to go by the DS took a ridiculous loss to piracy so i understand Nintendo's drive to stamp this out.

JoostinOnline

#11

JoostinOnline said:

@darkgamer001 I can't speak for ieaghosts, but there are flaws in both the article and the press release. I am strongly against piracy. As a developer, I get tired of people acting like homebrew and piracy are one and the same. They aren't. Also, homebrew (or "illegal software" as it's referred to in the Press Release) is by no means illegal. It is 100% legal.

Squashie

#12

Squashie said:

@ieatghosts Huh? Nintendo Life are merely reporting the legal case, as they report on most things Nintendo do. Besides, why shouldn't Nintendo Life be against piracy? It ruins the industry!

JoostinOnline

#15

JoostinOnline said:

@FiveDigitLP Two points:
First, that doesn't make the software itself illegal. It was the act of bypassing the security measures that was illegal, which (currently) violates the DMCA.
Second, the DMCA is only applicable in the United States.

PinkSpider

#19

PinkSpider said:

I know this isnt the right place to post this but i just had a nintendo life survey pop up.
Is it legit?

Hyperstar96

#20

Hyperstar96 said:

@JoostinOnline Wii was hacked in early 2008, less than a year and a half after launch. DS flashcarts that could play ROMs came about a year (if not less) after the DS's launch.

Microwaveable1

#22

Microwaveable1 said:

Yar Harr fiddle dee dee Being a pirate is alright to be! Do what ya want cuz a pirate is free, You ARRR A PIRATE!

Caryslan

#23

Caryslan said:

IIf nothing else, Nintendo has a case on the fact that Mario and other NIntendo images are plastered all over the website.

Honestly, I hate these damn things. I know there are legal reasons where hacking is allowed, but I get the gut feeling most people do it to steal games. The PSP was hacked to death, and it had the lowest software attachment rate of any system. Keeping in mind, this was a system that sold 70 million units.

That should say alot.

Caryslan

#24

Caryslan said:

By the way, for anyone who thinks this kinda thing is not all over the place, a Kiosk in my local mall sells copy TV plug-in games that have stuff like Super Mario Bros, Conta, and Duck Hunt on them. They change the title screens, but its very obvious those games are copied and hacked Nintendo and third-party NES games.

FiveDigitLP

#25

FiveDigitLP said:

@JoostinOnline
True, the software is legal, but in order to install it you have to circumvent the security on the console...which is illegal. I'm not saying it should be, just pointing that out.
But yeah, your point is valid that the article I posted only directly applies to the US.

JoostinOnline

#26

JoostinOnline said:

@FiveDigitLP Nintendo (and many other companies) like to spread misinformation through their press releases. The site isn't selling games, homebrew software isn't illegal, etc.

Murduskull

#27

Murduskull said:

@ieatghosts Why is their fight to protect whats rightfully theirs "Ridiculous"? They'll win, even if they wont be able to entirely block the use of NDS flashkarts I really don't see them standing for it with the 3DS. The games are a maximum of $40 here in NA, pay for the games you enjoy. Support the companies which software you enjoy.

Whopper744

#28

Whopper744 said:

I wish they could fish out all the hackers (that use their skill for bad) honestly, but I guess it's not that easy, then maybe they can go get a real job instead of trying to steal from people.

Veloster

#29

Veloster said:

I actually at one point thought that those 'flashcards' and R4s were alright to use (never actually owned one though).
It's only now that I'm a bit older, that I realise these things badly affect the games' compan(ies).

I'd rather see £40 go towards Nintendo, who never fail to please me, than give a few quid to these thieves. ;)

Shane904

#30

Shane904 said:

-sigh- The product makers/sellers shouldn't be in trouble. I feel bad for them. It is the user who chooses what they do with it.

Link-Hero

#31

Link-Hero said:

I bet you if homebrewing never gave you the capability to pirate games and hack online matches, Nintendo wouldn't care about homebrew and not give it a second thought.

ieatghosts

#32

ieatghosts said:

@squashie Piracy and copyright laws are not a black and white issues, although major publishers would have you believe that.

It is not 'ruining' the industry. There's a lot of evidence to prove otherwise. If you want a good take on piracy read what Notch has to say (aka Minecraft creator) Also, read what Gabe Newall has to say bout it. Both of these men have made a TON of money without being copyright hounds.

theblackdragonAdmin

#33

theblackdragon said:

@ieatghosts: squashie was actually calling attention to the fact that you said it was our campaign against piracy when it's actually Nintendo's. We're not affiliated with the big N, man, we're just here to report about anything and everything Nintendo-related that we possibly can :3

Tasuki

#34

Tasuki said:

I love how these articles always cause a fight between is pirating games legal or not.

Here's the facts.

Piracy is illegal no matter how you view it. You are taking something without paying for it that is not yours. End of subject that is all to it.

banacheck

#35

banacheck said:

This has been going on for years before the internet, it was gaming magazines selling Mod-Chips, which i find ironic.

Hyperstar96

#37

Hyperstar96 said:

@JoostinOnline I'm assuming you're talking about Wii and not DS. The first public release of the Homebrew Channel was in May 2008, about a year and a half after the Wii's launch in November 2006.

If you knew what you were doing (installation was very idiot-proof), it took about fifteen minutes and a copy of Twilight Princess. If you ask me, that's pretty easy.

JoostinOnline

#38

JoostinOnline said:

@Hyperstar96 My mistake. It's been a long time since then. I've been following this since the beginning, but I've never been good with dates. However, as a homebrew developer (google my name), I do know a fair amount about this. Breaking past the security was not easy. What you did was just run some software that bypassed the security through an exploit. That's completely different from hacking. The actual work took over a year of hard work from several people.

Dyl_73

#39

Dyl_73 said:

@Shane904
The producers and retailers know exactly what the buyer is going to do with it and so should be held partly responsible for the illegal use of them. It's not like they can be used in a legal OR illegal way. If you use one it is illegal. The manufacture of these things should be made a criminal offence. Just as the manufacture of pirate DVD's or CD's is.

santaglause

#40

santaglause said:

i will admit i did it to my ds and ended up not finishing any games i think buying games makes you play i just treated them like demos

Gimmemorecoinz

#43

Gimmemorecoinz said:

I hate stuff like this. The truth about what "homebrew" and "piracy" is always gets mixed up.
Homebrew is a term frequently applied to video games or other software produced by consumers to target proprietary hardware platforms (usually with hardware restrictions) not typically user-programmable or that use proprietary storage methods. This can include games developed with official development kits, such as Net Yaroze, Linux for PlayStation 2 or Microsoft XNA.[1]

When someone installs and uses commercial software without paying for the program, it is called "pirating" the software.

R4 cards are not Illegal. Neither are flash cards. They are just SEEN as illegal because they allow the user to run BOTH Commercial games AND pirated games. Little known fact, some of the original versions of MoonShell For DS would refuse to launch commercial games. I believe another group patched moonshell to be able to. So there you go. The homebrew community is NOT pirates. It's other people that find ways to use homebrew for piracy. It always happens. The reason Nintendo is on this is because usually one always follows after the other; homebrew-->piracy.

WinterWarm

#44

WinterWarm said:

Slap piracy in the face, Nintendo!

It must've been so satisfying to order the update and deny those morons sure-footing. :D

rayword45

#46

rayword45 said:

@Link-Hero Disagree. The way they acted towards things like Let's Plays and Streaming Gameplay makes me think they're quite uptight with any of their properties.

letsplay

#47

letsplay said:

I just plain hate hackers. Every time someone gets a virus it just makes my blood boil because someone is hacking my system. It's all the same "hacking".

theblackdragonAdmin

#52

theblackdragon said:

@1337man1233: not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but Club Nintendo (and nintendo.com for that matter) tends to quote reviews from websites and stuff on pages for their games. They're quoting our site reviews, not a personal CN account or anything. :3

Shane904

#53

Shane904 said:

@Dyl_73 They can be used in a bad way (pirating, which is illegal and to me, immoral), or in a way that isn't pirating (homebrew, video watching, etc). Going after the sellers is more like going after a blank CD/DVD/SD Card creator for what people were using the products for.

While it was a pretty lame flashcard, the Max Media Player/Games 'n' Music card by Datel (maker of Action Replay) made one that only supported homebrew. I wish there was a 3ds compatible flashcard like that - then it wouldn't be possible to use it for DS/3DS retail games.

SCAR392

#54

SCAR392 said:

@Shane904
Exactly. They just need to make a flashcard that only supports Homebrew. They need to intentionally block piracy, because Homebrew is not what people are fighting. It's the piracy that people are fighting.

If these people are willing to spend enough time to make homebrew apps and such, they should also put some effort into blocking piracy.
Hell, they could probably sell Homebrew as an app on the Wii U/3DS eShop. They just need to take that extra step so you can't do anything illegal with an otherwise capable software/application.

shinpichu

#56

shinpichu said:

@SCAR392
They did. The iPlayer only played homebrew, and had special hardware that let homebrew run faster than normal. DSTwo has better hardware(even though it allows piracy).

The other problem with that is that pirates are likely to find a way to get around the piracy blocks. That happened on some CFWs on the PSP that tried to block ISO loading, but people created patches to bypass the restrictions.

Shane904

#58

Shane904 said:

@SCAR392 The guy who made Gunman Clive got a start with Wii Homebrew before making Gunman Clive. Colors! 3D was originally Colors! for DS homebrew. Just most amature developers dont have money to get an official devkit and publish their game through the eShop.

shinpichu

#60

shinpichu said:

@Tasuki
Nobody is debating whether or not piracy is illegal or not. It 100% isn't legal. Most of what people are debating is whether or not Nintendo has the right to sue the makers and sellers of flashcards because, even though they can be used for piracy, they have other uses.

Think of it like this: would it be legal for Nintendo to sue people who make or sell DVDs or MicroSD cards because those are used in piracy?

Now, if this site were selling modchips, then there'd be no question. Thosse have no purpose but for piracy(IDK if they can remove region lock, but you can soft hack your Wii to do that w/out a modchip), so if this site were selling those then there'd be no question.

jessiemarvel

#62

jessiemarvel said:

I find it sad that a lot of the people that are the most "outraged" by this story are the ones defending their own use of the mods. It's really simple actually. Buy a game you'll enjoy. Support the companies involved. Trade them or lend them out if you must! If it is not in your possession with permission (whether it be from developer or owner or GameStop) - you stole.

Does the phrase "You get what you pay for" sound familiar to anyone?

wombatkidd

#63

wombatkidd said:

@Shane904
@shinpichu
Under American law, if you sell a device that can be used to violate copyright, that's fine as long as it has legitimate uses.

However, if you know about people using it to violate copyright and you encourage that behavior, you are just as guilty of copyright infringement as the pirate in the eyes of the law.

Here's a delightful quote from their faq:
"A: No it is not illegal, however the software you put on the R4 may be. The cards themselves aren't illegal because there's plenty of things that are legitimately free for them. It's the actual ds games that you download that are illegal. Backups and NDS roms are a touchy subject. If you don't own the game usually a back up is illegal. According to the law, you are allowed to have the software/games (ROMS) as long as you have purchased and own the original copy of the game."

Bold mine for emphasis. They know people are using it to download games they don't own and don't speak out against doing so, they just say that it is "usually" illegal to do so.

Their website also says they offer "post sale assistance," which means their employees have more than likely been helping people to get their pirated games to run.

DualWielding

#64

DualWielding said:

I don't think Nintendo has a leg to stand on legally here, but again they didn't in the other previously reported case either and they won

Brother_Jolteon

#65

Brother_Jolteon said:

The big question is why would anyone pirate nintendo stuff, its like the cheapest in the market.... if they have money to buy the somewhat pricey systems and not have money for the incredibly cheap games then they have their priorities all mixed up.....

SCAR392

#67

SCAR392 said:

@shinpichu
Well, it doesn't look like this flashcard tried to block piracy at all. Even if they did, they need to make it impossible, like random forgettable password impossible.
If you're the maker of a flashcard and don't even know now to get piracy running anymore(on your own product), I'm pretty sure no one would, assuming they found every loophole, locked them, then threw away the key.
If they want to keep selling stuff like this, they're gonna have to change it.

Intrepid

#68

Intrepid said:

Good, I'm glad Nintendo is going after these people. People should honestly just buy the games they want to play.

shinpichu

#69

shinpichu said:

@SCAR392
What do you mean? Do you mean the DSTwo I mentioned, or the flashcards being sold on this site?

@Intrepid
I agree, but shutting down one flashcard vendor won't stop that. Most pirates will never pay for what they want, no matter how much companies try to make them.

A better way to "combat" piracy is to give consoles something like the PS3's OtherOS functionality. That would let people run all the homebrew they want, removing the legit uses for flashcards and hacking.

@wombatkidd
Again, I'm sure makers/sellers of blank CDs, DVDs, and SD/MicroSD cards know that those are used by media pirates too. Does Nintendo have a right to sue them because they aren't openly condemning that practice?

Edit: nevermind, saw the "usually part."

shinpichu

#72

shinpichu said:

@laughingman0
Yes they do. They can be used to run homebrew software, as well as playing backups you made yourself.

If these guys were selling Wii modchips, that'd be another story though.

JuanitoShet

#73

JuanitoShet said:

You get 'em, Nintendo. We don't need people stealing the content created by others. It's bad for the industry, and bad for the consumers.

Knock 'Em Down.

laughingman0

#74

laughingman0 said:

@shinpichu

One can not use an R4 card or any card of the like to run homebrew games without first circumventing the anti-copyright infringement protection that is installed on the, in this case, DS system. The process of circumventing said anti-copyright infringement protection systems is illegal. Thus there is no legitimate use for such a card. Used legally it is simply a blank card, you cannot use it for homebrew etc without using it in conjunction with illegal software and it has no other uses. Either you are using it illegally or you are not using it at all. There is no legitimate use.

JoostinOnline

#75

JoostinOnline said:

They need to go after Gateway 3DS or WiikeyU instead. They don't contribute to anything but piracy, as they can't run unofficial software (homebrew).

I wish the writer of this article would read my previous comments so he could get his facts straight.

SCAR392

#77

SCAR392 said:

@shinpichu
They still got rid of OtherOS on PS3, beause of hacking. They also said hardly anyone used it, I think. PS3 proves that even if there is an "Other OS", people are still breaking the rules.

I'm talking about this card. They need to make piracy impossible on their devices if they want to continue selling them. It's not even an official device. If it messes up your console, Nintendo won't compensate you. That's a risk lots of people won't take.

JoostinOnline

#78

JoostinOnline said:

@theblackdragon Thank you. I just sent a message. By the way, I'm sorry if I came across as angry, as that wasn't my intention. Sometimes I forget how much communication is lost through a message.

JoostinOnline

#79

JoostinOnline said:

@laughingman0 That's in the USA, due to the DMCA. However, breaking a "User Agreement" is not the same thing as breaking the law. It's not a legally binding contract.

defrb

#80

defrb said:

The gateway card runs on firmware 4.5 or so. And you need a seperate sd card for every game you want to play. Games that run on 4.5+ wont run.

When hackers come online, they destroy every game. They can use trainers and hacks, i really hope "N" is gonne stop them before its to late.

laughingman0

#81

laughingman0 said:

@JoostinOnline

That's the case in USA & the EU and the UK. The prevention of circumventing the anti-copyright infringement protection is a law not a "User Agreement". You are aware of the DMCA, I'll also point you to the Copyright and Related Rights Regulations 2003. It is made clear that device such as the R4 are illegal. Look at the following two criminal offences mentioned (as a small example):

  • A person commits an offence if manufacturing for sale or hire, importation, sale or distribution of devices or products which are primarily designed or adapted for the purpose of the circumvention of technological measures;
  • A person commits an offence if providing, promoting, advertising or marketing a service the purpose of which is to enable or facilitate the circumvention of technical measures.

So I say again, there is no legitimate legal use for an R4 card.

ramstrong

#82

ramstrong said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK, Downloading ROM that isn't yours (i.e. not from the cart you own) would be stealing and wrong. Modding/hacking your console isn't illegal, even if it allows you to upload ROM. It's only illegal if you then try to sell it to somebody else.

As far as Nintendo suing these distributors, they can do that easy. Especially in America where "probable cause" is enough to sue somebody. Winning them, however, is another matter. Not all of these cases are won. Activision vs. Nintendo comes to mind.

Lots of people are equating carts that allows piracy as illegal device, but I'm not so sure. VHS/Beta VCR comes to mind. Photocopiers+Book maker also. Even some so-called "piracy site" like Mega Upload, the one that was raided recently, managed to avoid conviction since they fully comply with DCMA regulations. Mega Upload has changed their business to "Mega" and implement full-encryption, BTW, to prevent further problems.

So, my question is, if homebrew is legal and piracy is not, can I have a homebrew device, and is one available? Just label it 100% homebrew, not good for piracy, and I'll get it.

Petit Computer is nice, and all, but I'd like something that is closer to the hardware level, even if it's just a BASIC compiler.

@laughingman0
The way I read those terms means that I cannot MAKE or SELL those carts. However, I don't see anything illegal in those terms about BUYING them. And if what you say is true, that DCMA is valid is US and EU, that means I can buy direct from manufacture in ASIA, right? Thank you for clearing that up. :) I'm so happy it's legal for me to buy one!

Regarding your claim that R4 device has no legal purpose, I'm sure there are other people here that can verify whether or not I can do full back-up for ACNL, considering that the official app does not let me back it up.

Edit:
Regarding illegal activities, I wonder if that e-bay seller of Mario Kart has obtained a license or permit to sell it, because if not, that would be copyright violation right there. Remember that one guy who tried to sell golden edition of Zelda games?

laughingman0

#83

laughingman0 said:

@ramstrong

I assume you're joking. Something that is illegal to sell can not be legally bought. As for your "I can buy direct from manufacture in ASIA, right?" No because it is illegal to import such devices as stated in the legislation I mentioned (I only quoted a small portion that was relevant to the previous point).

The sale of legitimate copies of video games are not illegal so I don't see what your point is there. If you are referring to bootleg or otherwise illegal copies of a game then obviously that is illegal.

ramstrong

#84

ramstrong said:

@laughingman0

No, I'm not joking. I think your whole argument that R4 carts are illegal is based upon your argument that there is no legitimate use of R4 carts. More than a few people have commented legal use of such carts, even one specifically mentioned that only allows homebrew, not pirated ROM.

If you wish, I can wait until the court decides one way or another, but I don't think you can claim that R4 is an illegal device when so many people have legitimate use for it. If you have resources to the full text of DCMA, I suggest that you share it, because I'd like to see what the rest of it says. I do know that DCMA specifically allows back-up copy for personal use. That's a legitimate use.

If you know a legitimate way for me to save my ACNL game, then please let me know, because I've spent hundred of hours playing the game, and it would be bad if I lose the save file.

laughingman0

#85

laughingman0 said:

@ramstrong

I have already said how there is no legitimate use. You can not use an R4 to run homebrew without circumvention of anti-copyright infringement protection. I showed you quotations from the legislation and you can look at the full legislation for yourself. The circumvention of anti-copyright infringement protection is illegal, on this the courts have decided, there is nothing to wait for. There is a reason why it is illegal to sell and to import R4 cards in the UK (for example), it has already been decided.

DCMA the legislation that you speak of does allow for the creation of backups (creation from your own source by the way and not via a third party or download which is how 99% of back ups are obtained) but it does not allow for the use of backups via the circumvention of anti-copyright infringement protection. As for "resources to the full text of DCMA" it is available in full online as is the Copyright and Related Rights Regulations 2003/Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

As for you question about your save game you can back up saves from downlalod versions (http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Support/Nintendo-3DS-XL-/Usage-/Save-data-backup/Save-data-backup-767113.html). I don't know if there is a legitimate way to back up saves from a cartridge.

ramstrong

#86

ramstrong said:

Hopefully you're not a lawyer because your argument is incomplete. I ask for resources and references, and you told me to go look for them myself? Your argument has no support. This here is an example how R4 carts is illegal in Japan: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/07/nintendo-no-friend-of-homebrew-market-sues-ds-cart-makers/

And it's on that date that the law became valid, or whenever court decision/enforcement is. There is a note in the article about homebrew and other re-purpose of device. Those are legal activities. Regarding circumventing copy-protection, there was a case, admittedly long time ago, that Nintendo lost the case of copy-protection because it ran afoul of anti-trust provision.

And that is the crux of the problem: Laws change. That's why I asked for references. I need to know what provision changed and when. Yet, you speak of the laws in terms of absolute. That, there, is doubtful knowledge. When you consider that regulations are sometimes contradictory with one another, we have a whole mess of the situation.

I'm not a lawyer, and the issues confuse me. But I do try to understand them the best I can. Unless you can provide a link (just like you do when you provide the link to back-up question), how can people confirm your statement? Even the hint that you provide shows two different years. Unless you're a copyright lawyer, you may just ran afoul of dispensing a legal advice without a license, and by reading your text, I don't think you're a lawyer.

As for the back-up saves, it works for most program, EXCEPT ACNL. Not that I'll get the cart for backup purposes, since now that I think of it, ACNL is on-line dependent, and those carts don't work with mandatory system updates.

Maybe we should sue Nintendo to FULLY comply with DCMA and provide us with legitimate ways to back-up our saves. ;)

This is my last statement on this topic. I have spoken.

laughingman0

#88

laughingman0 said:

@ramstrong

I'm not a lawyer but I don't need to be to know about this legislation. The whole of the legislation is huge and you asked where you could see it for yourself it is for these reasons that I told you to look for yourself. If you want me to provide further samples of the legislation and how it directly applies then you can ask about a specific aspect and I'll tell you if I can.

If you wanted to see a news article stating that the R4 cart is illegal I can easily provide that although I'm sure you could have found it for yourself. From the UK national newspaper The Telegraph in 2010: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/nintendo/7916159/Nintendo-DS-R4-cartridges-ruled-illegal.html
"Nintendo DS R4 cartridges ruled illegal"
"The High Court has ruled that 'game copiers', devices which can be used to store and play copied games on the Nintendo DS hand-held console, are illegal.
It means that the game copiers, known as R4 cartridges, can no longer be imported, sold or marketed in the UK. "

It is illegal to sell or import R4 cards in the UK, that is not speculation on my or anybody elses part, it was ruled in court.

Here are two relevent links to the legislation that I mentioned upon your request:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/296ZB
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/296ZA

If it is not possible to back up an ACNL save at the moment then that is unfortunate. I hope Nintendo makes it possible soon.

"This is my last statement on this topic. I have spoken."

Why would this be your last statement? Why back away from the discussion?

ramstrong

#89

ramstrong said:

@laughingman0
Nothing more to discuss, really. With your links, now I can do research. As can everybody else.

"(b)imports otherwise than for his private and domestic use, or"

Yes, the law is huge, but that's why you need to provide links. Thank you for providing them. On the first link you mentioned, there is an exemption for importation for private and domestic use, which is different from what you claimed (no importation at all), but that is why it is important for you to provide proper references. I'm not in UK, BTW, so I don't know how relevant it is for me. I still need to check for my circumstances. Thanks again for providing me with references.

unrandomsam

#90

unrandomsam said:

@laughingman0 They are illegal to import for commercial use they are not illegal to own as far as I know. If that is the legislation then they are legal to import for private use. (Don't know whether that is the case or not though).

Not like Cocaine or Assault Weapons that are illegal in every way.

Cannot trust the media to report on law. (The original R4 is illegal but it is not even for sale these days (And it included Nintendo's code which I don't know whether the newer ones even do or not) and when it was my brother bought one from Cex).

Ebay actively allows people selling counterfeit cartridges on there. (DS in particular in those small plastic cases 2 for £10 but Paypal is against flash carts for whatever reason.)

I don't have an R4 myself but if the mod's for New Super Mario Bros wii perhaps I should get one. Nintendo's level design is awful people making the mod's actually still get what makes the older ones good.

(I own the 3DS and DS carts for New Super Mario Bros and it was a waste of money. I won't be getting the Wii U version until or if it can be modded. Shouldn't matter to Nintendo presuming I pay for the games which I do).

I would pay again for the DS games I have that I liked as downloads just for the convenience. (I really do see the convenience of only having to have one cartridge always in the system).

There is things the high court has ruled is illegal that European courts above it if someone could afford to take the case there would strike down as well.

There has not been a court case about any of the newer ones to my knowledge. (Even trying to block the Piratebay requires them to keep going back to court all the time).

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law

Acts that are allowed. (Under Fair Dealing)

"Producing a back up copy for personal use of a computer program."

Not an unreasonable thing to protect the originals from wear and tear.

laughingman0

#91

laughingman0 said:

@unrandomsam

R4 cards still work in the same way, using custom firmware to bypass copy protection. Also the thing that was made illegal was flashcards that bypass copy protection not the R4 card specifically, that is just the most well known version of such a card.

What do you mean when you say Ebay "actively allows people selling counterfeit cartridges"? They have a clear policy against it. If you're saying that they don't police that policy properly then that's a moot point. http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html

The level design in NSMBU is actually very good and very clever, it's by far the best game in the 'New' Mario series i my opinion. I don't though how whether you like the latest Mario game or not is relevant. The same with the convenience of being able to download games.

The case of Pirate Bay is much more complex and on an entirely different issue that that of R4 flash cards so the comparison isn't really a true one.

"Producing a back up copy for personal use of a computer program." does in no way permit the use of said back up via illegal means.

Two other things about back ups are that it only permits you to create your own back ups not obtain them from a third party via download or other such means (which is how 99% of people get their back ups) and also that if you are using the back up as the primary instance then it isn't by definition a back up (although that would never stand as an argument :P).

unrandomsam

#93

unrandomsam said:

@laughingman0 Making a backup of a cartridge you have in your possession should be no different legally then putting a ripped cd onto an ipod. (Presuming you do it yourself). And hardware to facilitate that shouldn't be illegal. (Same way CD burners are not or Video Recorders are not). Dunno what the law says and I haven't done it up to this point. (Don't think a user friendly method for me to it exists).

I would be interested to see what the court thinks about those exceptions in a case where someone has all the carts in their possession and is using a cartridge that uses no proprietary Nintendo code. Just taking a raw dump of something is not breaking copy protection. It would never go to court though because of the possibility of the result being undesirable.

Don't see why wanting Nintendo to provide the best possible product should be a problem.

As it stands carrying more than one cart in my 3DS is inconvenient for me so I don't bother. (The pirates have the best user experience they get to carry one card as far as I know legally as the law mentions nothing other than regards to distribution and importation for commercial purposes). To me it is irrelevant what other people do or do not do. What is important to me is as someone who pays for games is having at least as good as an experience as someone who pirates everything. (In an ideal world I would want a superior experience. Apple seems to manage it).

Also there is a rumour the 3DS card can break the region lock. (I hope Datel release a product similar that can as that is something I definitely will want at some point).

About Ebay they say that but don't police at all when they easily could. (Same with Amazon).

laughingman0

#94

laughingman0 said:

@unrandomsam

Why should any hardware to facilitate back ups be legal? There is no logic to that. You are talking about a device that is designed to break through legal protection and saying it should be legal because it offers convenience? An iPod is massively different than a 3DS and a VCR is massively different than an R4 card.

"Wanting Nintendo to provide the best possible product" is not a problem. Wanting Nintendo to provide the best possible product" does not involve an R4 card.

The inconvenience of having to carry carts around with you has no bearing on the legality of breaking into the device. Either buy a case or if you want digital versions of your games then buy digital versions of your games. What is this comparison you are making with Apple?

About Ebay, again not policing a policy strongly (and they do police it when individual cases are reported but it's not actually as easy as you state because not many things are listed as being bootleg) is not the same as having an opposite policy or not having a policy at all. If they officially allowed it then they would have big legal problems (same with Amazon).

unrandomsam

#95

unrandomsam said:

@laughingman0 Because in any normal logical way of looking at it. Putting a stack of carts that you own onto one device is the same thing as copying the contents of some cd's that you also own onto another device and not bringing the originals with you. (Only difference I can see is whether the powers that be might want to do it which the are fairly liked to have with VCR's / CD's but are unlikely to have any interest in something like this).

Apple offers the best service to people who pay which is a good thing.

(Nintendo just putting the commonly wanted DS games onto the 3DS eshop would solve the problem straight away).

You are allowed to make a backup of a computer program you own. (A game is a computer program). A raw dump is not breaking any encryption.

I would be less bothered if it was possible to get digital versions of most of the DS games I have.

I think a device where basically you can only load on to it stuff by physically putting the cart into a reader first would be treated very differently. (Presuming it didn't use any Nintendo proprietary code).

Messing around with homebrew should be legal as well. (Something like Playstation Mobile or the way Apple does it would be fine. As it stands there is no way to do it for the 3DS without spending lots of money.)

And they are only illegal to import sell or advertise. (Not to own at least according to the high court ruling.) They may even be legal to import for personal use.

Carrying a stack of carts instead of carrying one is just not something people should have to do. (Maybe it doesn't matter if you carry a handbag but it makes a significant difference if you try and carry as little junk with you as possible.

Ebay could police it much better but they choose not to so they are just as bad in my opinion. (If you buy stolen goods then you lose them if it is found out. They profiting from this in the same way as any other enterprise selling bootlegs).

laughingman0

#96

laughingman0 said:

@unrandomsam

Putting songs onto a CD or an iPod doesn't involve hacking into any hardware and circumventing any copy protection. It's not the same as an R4 card at all.

How does Apple offer the best service to people who pay?

No, it is not illegal to create a backup (create and not download). What can you then do with that backup? Anything you want? No.

Technically you have to load your backup from a physical cart because downloading backups is illegal.

There is no obligation on Nintendo's part to make homebrew available. If you want to develop for a Nintendo platform then go through the proper channels. Open source platforms allow for open development proprietary platforms do not. Nintendo make proprietary platforms. Playstation Mobile hasn't really been a success and it hasn't stopped people trying to hack their consoles. The iPhone doesn't have any means to officially support homebrew.

You don't want to carry around your DS games... So what? Nintendo may or may not make DS games available to download in the future and if they do you'll likely be asked to pay for them regardless of if you have a physical copy. Just because you want something doesn't make it right.

GrinderFiend

#97

GrinderFiend said:

The only crack i support for 3DS is the one allowing homebrew and wiping out the region lock. May the hammer of god fall on the latter.

Slayer

#98

Slayer said:

R4 and flashcarts are NOT in any way illegal! They only seem like that. But has anyone ever thought how they get the ROM data? They BUY THE CARTRIDGES and take the game files. Not many 3DS games have been copied into ROMs, so that's a whole new purchase and Nintendo will get money for it! They're only complaining because they didn't look very deep! Nobody complains when people put backup games on PSP systems. Usually that's people with broken UMD slots like me, but still, ROMs come straight from the purchase! The hacking of the Wii, that was illegal, but like @GimmeMoreCoinz said: R4 cards are seen as illegal, but they really are not. If Nintendo carries on with Nintendo DS and 3DS business, that's more purchases from the people who emulate the software. There are even lots more DS games that HAVEN'T been transformed into a ROM. More games means more money even when it comes to flashcarts. Flashcart users do not condone piracy everyone!
I am mainly being defensive for personal reasons.

Poketendo

#99

Poketendo said:

Finally... FINALLY! It's about time it stops! I know a lot of people with a DS or a Wii, and unfortanly, most of them use R4's or hacked systems. It just makes me filled with anger. They don't understand that they're destroying the gaming market. One of them once said "Donwloading the games isn't illegal, only uploading is." Unbelievable... They often tried to convince me to hack my system, but I will stay a honest fan of Nintendo, and nothing beats the feeling of getting your new game disc or card, freshly out of the box.
I hope they will be able to stop this nonsense.

laughingman0

#100

laughingman0 said:

@slayer

Has anyone thought how they get the ROM data? Yeah, they rip it from one cartridge and then distribute it to thousands of people for free. Nintendo will not get money for it. Sony doesn't like it when people do this with the PSP. Piracy hurt the PSP in the west in a big way.

"Some flashcart users do not condone piracy but 99% of them are pirates!"

Fixed.

Slayer

#101

Slayer said:

@laughingman0 Sony's PSP? Backup games on PSP are because the UMD slot is broken! Sony did a horrid job with the UMD discs and this is what they get. As for your point, do you know how many 3DS ROMs are out there? NONE! More money for Nintendo!
And as for your name, who's laughing NOW?

laughingman0

#102

laughingman0 said:

@slayer

Yes the Sony PSP which was hacked and used for piracy, not because of the UMD slot. As for there being no 3DS ROMS out there, false. There is no way to put them on an R4 card and play them and yes that does mean more money for Nintendo because it means pirates can't download and play the games for free, they have to actually buy the games. That's a great point to make AGAINST a 3DS R4 card.

You said: "R4 and flashcarts are NOT in any way illegal!" - FALSE! It's illegal to sell them in the UK and many other locations.

You said: "Nobody complains when people put backup games on PSP systems." - FALSE! Piracy had a huge negative impact on the PSP and Sony did complain about it.

You said: "ROMs come straight from the purchase!" - FALSE! ROMs are downloaded from the internet, no purchase required.

You said: "If Nintendo carries on with Nintendo DS and 3DS business, that's more purchases from the people who emulate the software." - FALSE! It is the exact opposite. Without a 3DS R4 card everybody who wants to play has to buy the game. With a 3DS R4 card many people will download without paying.

You said: "As for your point, do you know how many 3DS ROMs are out there? NONE!" - FALSE! There is no way to use them yet.

You said: "And as for your name, who's laughing NOW?" - Oh I see, you're an idiot.

Slayer

#103

Slayer said:

@laughingman0 My brain is fully functional, I assure you. Otherwise I wouldn't know SmileBASIC, a bit of C, and Visual BASIC. Get back to me after I learn Java too. As for the PSP, Sony did a horrid job with the UMD slot, causing it to break on many units (including mine).They made the same mistake with the PS1, except you could hold that one down with a rock or anything. Causing people to be forced to play the backup games with the custom firmware in order to enjoy their PSP more. Now for the DS and other systems:
You say I'm wrong about there being no 3DS ROMs.
Well, you are the one that is wrong. You see, the only website that has the ROMs for the 3DS leads you to Adbucks and forces you to download their software. You don't even get the ROM in the end.
You said I was wrong about ROMs coming from purchases.
Well, you're wrong there too. Not only does one site buy the ROMs, LOTS of others do too. Mainly because the sites that apparently got the data weren't trusted by others, hence loads more purchases.
You said I was wrong about Nintendo carrying out business.
You guessed it, you're wrong. Nintendo aren't being very SMART here. They abandoned normal DS cartridges long ago, leaving them open to be targeted by ROM businesses. Nintendo, if they made more DS games, would have carried on business because of more and more purchases from EVERY SITE.
And I know they're illegal in most other countries. Not the US though.
And for another thing, these cartridges aren't even very well known! I know lots of people with Nintendo's mobile systems, and none of them have heard about these things!
Got any arguments for these? Barely care, but go on if you want to.
And just for the record, the hacking of the Wii was illegal. Flashcarts, not so much.

laughingman0

#104

laughingman0 said:

@slayer

It was piracy that hurt the PSP not people buying the games and then using backups. The hardware fault was fixed on the revised models and even before then it wasn't as bad as the picture you're trying to paint.

You are wrong about 3DS ROMS there is no way to use them. The hack that allowed it was blocked. Why would they be distributed with no way to use them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uW3LxuDvHeI

You are wrong about ROMS coming from purchases. Just because a few sites buy a copy that doesn't change the fact that they then distribute it to thousands of others for free. The physical cart or the official download come from purchases, the ROM doesn't have to. If you actually think that the amount of sales to create ROMS are equal to or more than legitimate sales then you really are an idiot. Even if every site bought a copy (which they don't) that would be what, 50 sales? An insignificant number in terms of software sales and nowhere near the number that then get downloaded for free. In some cases with PSP games the illegal downloads exceeded the legal sales, not “loads more purchases” at all.

Nintendo moved on to new carts for their new system. This has nothing to do with the fact that there were ROMs for DS games years before the 3DS came out. Nintendo DS carts were targeted right from the launch of the DS, not after Nintendo “abandoned” anything.

Illegal in most countries is not the same as not illegal in any way.

They aren't well known... That's probably because they are dodgy carts that aren't available through mainstream retail and pretty much require illegal downloads to be of any use. What's your point?

“And just for the record, the hacking of the Wii was illegal. Flashcarts, not so much. ” You just admitted they are illegal in most countries. And in the US it is now pending the result of the lawsuit against hackyourconsole .com.

Slayer

#105

Slayer said:

@laughingman0 You really live up to your NL name, don't you?
First of all, I watched that petty YouTube video that proves nothing. Simply, you need a ROM of Luigi's Mansion to actually get that. And I swear if you look up sites to get 3DS ROMs, you will get nothing but scammers.
You are the idiot if you apply the number of sales to HUNDREDS OF DS GAMES! Half the people who own a Nintendo system are clueless about flashcarts as well. I have many friends with a DS and they have no idea what flashcarts are.
Yes, I did admit that. The US sells flashcarts ON AMAZON SET TO NEW! HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A PERFECTLY LEGAL COMPANY SELL SOMETHING YOU CALL ILLEGAL?
Some who own flashcarts only use them for backups or homebrew.
And my point on the known? The number of people who have a working knowledge of these things are the ones who buy them. The numerous citizens who haven't an idea that these things exist won't take money from their wallets to get the R4 or others. That is my point. Yours?
And yes they broadcast it to thousands of people for free, but that's a matter of how many games they buy and how many sites buy them. Nintendo is complaining because they're short a certain amount because they were idiots and let go of an outdated console. The revolution, er, sorry you wouldn't understand that, the flashcart people, are pursuing Nintendo. Consoles that they leave behind are prey to the devices such as the R4. They stopped making games for the DS long ago. If they kept the development process of more DS games and make 3DS ones simultaneously, which they can do because they have countless workers, the game sales would go up and Nintendo gets more funds.
And ILLEGAL DOWNLOADS? There is a second use for this flash cartridge. Homebrew. Ever heard of the famous DScraft? This is the only way you can play that unless you count emulators. Don't get me started on those.
We've been doing this for awhile, quit wasting my time, and I won't waste yours, keep your opinion, and let the official companies handle this.

laughingman0

#106

laughingman0 said:

Yes, I'm laughing at your blindness to any of the negative effects of R4 cards (the name laughingman0 has no negative connotations).

1. Yes you need a ROM and he clearly several in the video. They aren't available to the public as i have already said.

2. There is clear data to say that the number of illegal downloads for DS games is very high and PSP games even higher. There are cases of PSP game with less sales than illegal downloads, another fact I have already said and you have chosen to ignore. It is you who is either an idiot or a troll if you are trying to say that DS and PSP piracy (well known as a big problem) is somehow such a small thing as to be insignificant.

3. Amazon doesn't sell R4 cards new, the only time I saw that it got pulled pretty quick. And as to illegal items being sold on a legal site? Let's look at Amazon again. Illegal bootleg DVD: http://www.amazon.com/Gyakkyo-Burai-Kaiji--Hakairoku-hen-TV1-26End/dp/B002KJK2R0/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1378356054&sr=1-1&keywords=1+~+26+END

4. What you do with something has no bearing on if it is illegal or not. To the people who use flash cards for homebrew in the US (where they are currently legal) good for them. That doesn't change the fact that most people use it for piracy.

5. My point is that a) the 'small' amount of people who know about it have had a big effect and b) how many people know about it has no bearing on it's legality .

6. Drop the fallacy that the DS was targeted after it was dropped. The R4 came out in 2007 and was used for rampant piracy in the DS' prime. Also drop the fallacy that these sites buy anywhere near the amount of legitimate games that they illegally distribute. I guess you think they should still be making GBA games and Gameboy games? New system, new media. The DS can't even handle 3DS games so how could they release DS versions?

6. Yes the main use for R4 cards is illegal downloads. There is some cool homebrew stuff out there but it;s a mere silver lining to the mass piracy that the card allows.

If there was/is a card out there that allows for homebrew but not for piracy then that would be great.

7. Wasting you time? Haha. You can decide to respond or not, that's your choice (none of my time has been wasted).and no I won't "keep my opinion", I'll express it. The official companies are handling the issue and it will be interesting to see what line they draw in the US. The same as in the UK, an opposite stance or somewhere inbetween.

Slayer

#107

Slayer said:

@laughingman0 You obviously don't know making peace when you see it, don't you? You simply waste my time with the continuous banter. It seems just as well you have plenty of time.
1. Yes, they aren't available. One site had Mario Kart 7, but then again, they didn't.
2.Sony should pay for the fact that they barely tried with the PSP. That's why more buy the DS systems.
3.I hope you have your head straight, we're talking about flash cartridges.
4.You simply don't notice that honesty brings more sales to Nintendo.
5.You do know that people who don't know that this exists won't look it up at all? And for another thing I don't mean DS versions of 3DS games. I mean games that DS systems can handle. You are thinking too far here.
6.People who want to try homebrew either have to download one of those horribly coded emulators, or use the better option. This.
7. Wasting "you" time? Either that was a typo or you just spell horribly. And I won't really do this once you respond, simply because 1. I don't care what happens on this board, 2. it takes time to type these, and 3. I simply am busy. Goodbye, I don't care at all what you say now!
Hey, all of my counters were short and easy to think of. TROLOLOLOLOLOL!

laughingman0

#108

laughingman0 said:

1. That's what I said. ROMs are not available to the public, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

2. There is nothing that Sony should have to 'pay' for. That's just a typical justification from a pirate.

3. You asked for an example of a legal site selling illegal items. Done.

4. Yes honesty brings more sales. R4 cards don't and honesty has no bearing on legality.

5. Yes there are people who don't know exist, that doesn't make it legal or good. Why would Nintendo spend money developing for old systems? You still want GBA games and SNES games being made? You are talking rubbish. And that doesn't change the fact that the R4 was being used for piracy in 2007 during the DS' prime.

6. It being a more convenient option doesn't make it legal or good.

7. Haha, you're so desperate that you need to focus on a typo!"

"Hey, all of my counters were short and easy to think of." And you managed to raise 0 valid points. It's always short and easy to counter your points because they are absolute rubbish.

"TROLOLOLOLOLOL!" Thanks for admitting it. :)

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