Darasin

@94graysoncharles @nintendoknife the game isn't optimized on any console, so asking for the Switch @ 720p30fps docked to be closer to the XBOX One at 900p more then 30fps isn't asking that much. I don't know how anyone can claim how fast the chip is or isn't vs what its suppose to be at 1-1.1tflop, based on how dock and undock clocks run. We can say the Unreal engine port sucks, the developers had to many builds on their hands, but this system can do this game XBOX One level at 720p30. Its insane to say otherwise with all the ports we've seen. Would it require someone to optimize, yes, but that can be said of all the versions of this game. You don't need a 6tflop XBOX X to run this game right. Its nuts.

The game doesnt have enough things going on for the PS4 Pro to run at 1080p. The game just wasn't optimized as a trade off to getting it out the door. Given the Switch FPS trade off, I would have expected this to look like the base XBOX - but at 30fps. The base XBOX + 720p is where I expect them to end up, if they want to prove they are committed to releasing the game they promised. That should be more then doable IMO.

Konami is so lazy and useless anymore.

@NEStalgia - the number has to anchor it, in case the reviewer gets off track. How many times has a reviewer hated one thing BAD, but the overall score was decent?

I read a Hallow Knight review where the score set the stage - but the reviewer went on a two page hate fest on ONE item. If there was no score to set the stage, I would have skipped on buying it.

Reviews need a score and the words behind it to justify said score. They should work with one another to offer a full review. In one decision I stopped used Polygon when deciding on a game.

The easiest way to solve rights issues would be to add a cartridge port to the N64 classic. There are plenty of carts in circulation.

This game is a 10.

There are titles on the store of that are mature or not, good quality or not. If anything, there doesn't seem to be any real standard for what gets approved.

Trailer was terrible. End was like some teens wet dream of two girls lol.

This reeks of yet another developer having issues with the Unreal Engine.

Its a jerk move, but I bought an SD card for a reason. Amazon's 20% off also covers the Switch tax. I do think Nintendo needs to get a gripe on this, but its not the end of the world.

This game is better then a 7, IMO. To me its an 8.5, if you enjoy when games don't make what's next to easy.

There is no reason that Switch titles can't match an XBOX 1 in experience. I get some engines haven't been optimized for Switch, but that aside it shouldn't happen.

I never had a lot of time into the others, are these any good?

Here we have ID using Vulkan to bring high end titles to the Switch. This is what I've been saying folks, the Switch can handle most games if the devs are willing to access all its potential.

I've been saying FOREVER that Vulkan would be the difference on ports like this. No reason this can't be a worth while port and the video looks really good.

Man, he won me over.

There were 88K sold in Japan alone last week. Maybe, just maybe the bulk of the available system sold really fast and 22K is what was mustered for this week. Unless there is proof of system just sitting on shelves, I doubt there is anything to worry about.

@sdelfin "Keep in mind though, at such low resolutions, an extra 70 lines of horizontal resolution is over 25% more lines."

TVs from that era really negated that.

@sdelfin I'm not ignoring the extra resolution, so much as saying while its a win - it doesn't negate or offset the list of advantages the SNES offers. I think we've had a good discussion about ports and the quality or lack thereof. I think the nod would go SNES, but anyone can botch a port or multi console system - fair enough.

Since we talking technical superiority, I'm saying that those 70 lines don't make up for the missing colors, total colors, hardware rotation, scaling, zoom, lighting and transparency. When a competent developer wanted a SNES game to look amazing, it did and often with little sacrifice. Also, its been said many times, but most manufacturers didn't use that resolution as it was lost of most people's TV's. It likely helps some of these titles more today then back then. Not even SNK bothered to support it.

There were some great looking Genesis games where lack of prowess caused blemishes. The most common I noticed is color, missing frames and transparency (this one drove me nuts during the Sega days). These are the big ones that stood out to me and thats why I say the SNES was the superior graphical system.

I think even Treasure would have had a problem making some of the best SNES games work on the Genesis.

Audio wise I think you nailed it when you said I may just not like FM Synth and I think thats true. I still think the Sony sound chip was technically superior - but sound is subjective and I don't blame you for liking synth so much.

Overall best system. I think that should remain undecided. I think the SNES was better as it spoke to me, but empirically we know there are people who just like what Sega was doing. Weaker system or not (my words) these people liked Sega. I'm ok with that.

@NerdNoiseRadio I turned to YouTube to check out the difference between Genesis and SNES MK2. There are plenty of comparison videos. After watching 3 or 4 of them its pretty clear the SNES version is vastly superior to the Genesis.

As several reviewers mention, the SNES version is almost arcade perfect and the Genesis version is missing parallax (thats odd as its something the Genesis usually does well), scaling and a lot of voices. Most reviewers agree that Probe did a shoddy port.

@NerdNoiseRadio

Ok - I'm at work, so I am going to just hit the highlights.

Resolution - its 70 lines. I don't know that it makes sense to push this as high and low res other then to say there is a difference? Does 70 lines make the system more technically powerful then a system that displays a lot more colors from a much larger palate when talking 2D? How about rotation, scaling and the better sprite capabilities of the SNES? Its like we're ignoring the best graphical abilities of the time for 70 lines.

Now, I get that I mentioned the MK1 thing and here is what throws me. You say its been proven they are using the same pixel size and the difference is resolution. My problem is the difference feels much larger then that. I'm trying to use emulation to review this weekend out of curiosity. Let's just say its just resolution. Ok fine, that's why the genesis look small. How about the lack of colors and the missing digital look of the game vs the arcade? The Genesis is lacking there as well. I mention this just to point out that there is more missing then just sprite size due to resolution.

Slowdown - most of the SNES games I can think of that had slowdown (Super R Type / Gradius) the developer either said they were deliberately slowing the title down or it was observed that the Japanese version didn't slow down. Irem admitted to slowing R Type down for Americans.

You mentioned this sprite superiority of the Genesis. MK2 was an example. I'll check it out. Like I said, the best looking games on the SNES are unmatched by anything on the genesis. I don't recall the Genesis having anything that can match Super Metroid, DKC, FF6 or Chrono Trigger - let alone Yoshi's Island for graphical prowess.

Typically, the most powerful 2D system would be the one capable of making the best looking game with the most stuff happening on the screen. Winner - likely Neo geo lol. Take that over priced monster off and its the SNES. From colors to sprites to special effects (transparency) it painted a better scene. Colors alone are going to be a much bigger deal then 70 lines of resolution.

Audio - I'm just having a hard time with this one. Genesis sound and music just sounds so rough to me. Its like metal grating lol.

I'll hit you up on Facebook.

Dar

@sdelfin You wrote
in another reply I'm writing to NerdNoiseRadio, I raise the point you did, and it's a good point, about how the high-res mode of the Genesis could work against it by making the sprites appear smaller, even though they're the same sprite and the same size internally as pixels. However, only in the context of this discussion of what is "better", the fact that the Genesis has a useful high-res mode is something it has over the SNES."

See, I think this is a fallacy. I know you're using the term high res loosely, but given the state of TVs at the time I don't find the extra lines of resolution as game changing. Even the Neo Geo (clearly more powerful) didn't use that res. TV's didn't universally benefit from it at that time. The extra 70 lines on the genesis don't hold up to the fact the SNES had more colors, more sprite ability, rotation and scaling.

I would agree that bad ports could give either system an unfair advantage, but the best SNES games are clearly better then the best Genesis games on a technical level. I can't think of any Genesis games that look as good as DKC, Yoshi Island, FF6 or Chrono Trigger for example.

On just the audio. I've listened to a few example, I am going through them all now. I took Chakan as it came up earlier, but its just as grating as I remember. I can't stand how rough it sounds. I'm going to work your list today.

Dar

I have to run for a bit, but will try to make it back later. If anyone wants to link an example of graphics or audio on Genny that shows superiority - I will glad watch and reply.

What a great thread.

PS: @StuTwo - give me some examples of arcade ports being better on Genny? When I think SF or Neo Geo I always felt like the SNES versions were better. Just curious what you think?

@sdelfin I think the problem with resoltion is the net effect in the 16bit days it made Genny games look small. Most titles looking small wasn't offset enough by the small bump in resolution. Depending on your TV, you might not have even enjoyed the clarity back then vs just seeing fiendishly small sprites. A few companies like Sega obviously played with pixel size in games like Sonic. I just feel like this didn't happen enough.

@sdelfin @NerdNoiseRadio
"Bad Genesis sound is metallic and grating for music and effects, and scratchy for speech." Yes, that pretty close to what I was trying o say. My question for either, give me an example of great Genesis Audio that I missed?

I've read the resolution war arguments of the 16 bit era from Genny to SNES to TG-16 to Neo Geo. My rub is still the same, things look tinny and my understanding is they didn't have to. In my MK example they could have used larger sprites to make larger character and prevent the game from looking tinny. The difference in resolution isn't enough to justify how small the characters look. They are already smaller, even of the resolution exasperates the effect.

TG-16 - the system card, system card 3 and Arcade Card were nothing more then memory for the CDROM. I mention then because as memory increased, so did the scope of TG-16 games. Fatal Fury Special on Arcade card was damn close to MVS in quality. I also felt like TG-16 titles typically system 3 and up looked much better then Genny. Music yes if CD sound, which isn't fair I know. Sound chip sound was inferior for sure.

Dar

@NerdNoiseRadio I will agree its rough to discuss prowess of systems that existed so long ago, but I did recently play the two MK1's for Genesis and SNES. The Genesis version seems cheesy graphically and undersized - its why I used that example. When you raise or lower the resolution of something, you can play with pixel size to offset how large a character is at any given resolution. Are you saying the developers were to lazy to size the pixels on the genesis?

On sounds, overall, I find SNES sound far superior to Genesis. To be fair, let's do this. If its within your power, can you link some examples to sound you believe clearly shows the Genesis prowess? I'll listen closely and compare to items I feel were high points for the SNES and give you my feedback. Fair? I don't want time or failing memories to ruin a reasonable discussion. There is a element to the sound on the genesis that drives me nuts and I swear the term for its lost on me, but I'll do my best to look for it. Artificial and yes it does remind me of 80's arcades. Example - the voices / sound from the start of Altered Beasts - if that helps?

On the cross platform sound angle. Lets say we were comparing Sonic to SMW - to me Mario sounds better then Sonic. The best way I can compare is that the effects sound cut off. The end of sounds stop abruptly making the effect jarring to me.

You said you've written on some of this? I'd be more then willing to read what you've written if you can share?

Graphics - when you mention the habit of of different companies performing ports its likely not fair to point to cross platform. Ok - fine.

I guess that when I think of Super Metroid, Yoshi Island, DKC, FF6 or Chrono Trigger I can't think of any Genesis games that match those efforts graphically. I always felt like the lack of colors really hurt the overall look of Genesis titles. To this day I can play SMW and be ok with the look, but the Sonic titles "look" tired to me.

I still feel like the SNES was noticeable better overall in sound and graphics. I'm willing to review examples with you, out of fun, and be proven wrong if I am. I don't think I will concede, but I am open to being surprised.

Dar

@NerdNoiseRadio I appreciate your love for the Genesis, but from a technical stand point it didn't hold a candle to the SNES. SNES games looked better, sounded better and were more substantial.

Example - Mortal Kombat. The Genesis version had red blood and intact fatalities, which was cool - but the character were small in scale and to me it killed game play. The characters on the SNES were larger like the arcade and had more details. The lack of colors on the genesis made everything look pixly all the time.

I can't count all the times I played cross platform titles and the Genesis version was always using smaller assets. Things were tiny and scaled back. The music always felt overly mechanical and small.

I'm always shocked when people act like they couldn't tell the difference between the two from a technical standpoint. Heck, I don't think the Genesis held up to the PC Engine once the later system cards came out. The arcade card allowed for some amazing titles I just couldn't see on the genesis.

Just my two cents.

Winner: SNES
Runner up: PC Engine/TG-16

Loser: Genesis/Mega Drive/Blast processing.

I wish they would just port this to the Switch.

@Menchi187 I took it to mean we're a small shop working on a new system and we're having problems.

Switch is selling at an insane pace, Capcom doesn't know what to do about it. Sigh.

Had I not played the global testfire this score would have surprise me, but I did and I could not stop playing it.

@rjejr I agree with you, they need to load it up with value. I hate it when its a bad sell and then the developer craps in the community for not buying it.

Also, lets hope for a quality port.

@gatorboi352 why is that? Because those games are typically better? Like I said, I see the attraction of XBOX, MS offers no competition. Since PS4/XBOX 1 developers can not leave their core consoles behind per Sony/MS, the gap between systems isn't going to be as big as it could be.

If I am developing a none exclusive title, I follow the numbers and Nintendo is hot right now. The Switch has plenty of potential, just needs some shops <other then Nintendo> to try.

@gatorboi352 most of these its laziness, in the sense the typical dev is never going to bother limiting their API overhead. It's about saving every buck. That's fine, but don't whine that X system is lacking when you aren't willing to do your part.

I"m ok with a dev saying, hey we're cheap bastards and are looking for the easy route. It's a free country, don't have to lie to me.

@gatorboi352 that's delusional. 1Gflop vs 1.4 isn't that big. If you took API overhead out with Vulkan, there would be no difference in GPU ability unless you also used Vulkan on XBOX1. Out of the two, only the Switch has been certified that I know about.

It's pure lazy, don't let the BS fool you.

Lorne was wrong is just about as many ways as one can be wrong. I do agree, a little, that is hard for 3rd parties to make money on Nintendo consoles, but it didn't use to be. The hard truth Lorne has to accept is that companies use to compete better with Nintendo when it comes to making games, but MOST developers just can't match them.

You look at MS and they make almost nothing in house. I get that would be attractive to the lazy.

We've seen plenty of 3rd party and Indies do well on the Switch. However, if you're going to drop crap at me feet when titles like Zelda exist - then don't expect me to bite.

It's that simple devs.

I think they should have said we're lazy and want to use API's like OGL with 40% overhead. I'm tired of these lazy devs.

If the XBOX One runs this game, then the Switch can - its pretty much just that simple. If they XBOX One / PS4 base port is going to be crap, then don't make a Switch build. We don't need crap ports. A good bit of these horse power stories are rubbish, its an issue of middleware/APIs. If you are going to use an abstract 3D API that needs about 40% overhead, then PS4/XB1/Switch are going to suffer. Period.

A system like the Switch needs developers to stop wasting resources and its just not going to happen. They like the overhead, it makes development easier/cheaper.

I get the feeling this game is a little different in that it shouldn't be released for anything less then the PS4 Pro. That aside, all these lazy middleware/API developers should be taken with a grain of salt.

If you don't believe, look at what Vulkan did for Doom3. Developers were able to add video cards that were ancient to the supported list by lowering the overhead via Vulkan. We need more of that.

If the XBOX One can run this, so can the Switch.

Should be a pool that says: Is this the reason Nintendo hasn't gotten the VC running on Switch yet? YES

Impressed.

It's troubling at the least. I don't get why launch titles had this down, but now it's hard to do. Just sounds like lazy to me. I want the 1080p.

The only problem with Nintendo fans is they don't like mediocre games and crap ports.

The Switch using Vulcan can run anything the XBOX One can run, its not a horsepower issue.

I play online outside the house. My Switch is tethered to my iPhone and I have TMO unlimited data. Its trivial to do and works really well.

If you don't try then its always impossible.

Is this game was ported using Vulkan it would totally work and work well.

My only problem is I feel like the hardware is enough to handle both. Developers use so much middleware we typically lose 40% of the system for easier development. Some games like BMR are no big deal, but there are games where some optimization would go a long way. I would love to see devs jump on the Vulcan API bandwagon, the Switch has been certified for it.

Sonic didn't work in the 16bit days and nothing has changed.