@UltimateOtaku91 the thing is .... is going open-world an excuse to sacrifice everything else? Or are we delluding oursevles and being blinded by fanboyism and fanatism?
Why is going open-world an excuse to eliminate everything else? Who says we can't have an open world with everything I listed above that made a Zelda... Zelda?
Going open world is not my gripe about these games ... its the lack of focus and coherence about ALL the things that made Zelda special.
Give me TotK or BotW .... but add all the previous stuff.
It's not an evolution if you eliminate everything from the DNA ... its just like it was said before... a change of GENRE.
People are projecting what they like about OTHER GAMES into these games... which is disgusting AF.
I don't care about sales either... you can attribute that to the console its in too. The Switch is a monster, its obvious its going to sell way much more, there's more population and gaming is more common now than it was 12 years ago when the last Zelda before BotW released.
BOTW is a really good game… but it’s, in my opinion, a bad Zelda game.
@roy130390 @likelysatan it’s not that I’m saying you’re not a true fan… but from my experience … 90% of people I argue with about BOTW are people who it is their first or second Zelda game they have ever played. They are newcomers. They don’t know the DNA of Zelda as well as people who have been playing it for years and seen it’s growth.
For other thing, I have pretty much many arguments as to why I consider it a vanilla Zelda experience. A proof of concept as some people call BOTW.
what you forget is that Zelda isn't only about freedom. Zelda is not a sandbox and had never been before BOTW. Open world? Sure. But not a sandbox. Neither Minecrafty nor Bolts and Nutsy.
People say that that BotW built up everything from its predecessors? Then they should have added:
themed or better designed dungeons,
items, not the same 4 boring runes you've been using for the past 100+ hours.
meaningful sidequests,
heart pieces,
meaningful rewards other than rupees, random weapons and random materials,
bosses, (the blights are just hit sponges with no strategy involved with a generic design feeling samey with each other)
iconic NPCs with backstories, (there’s not a single ounce of storytelling for them in BOTW… townsfolk are just a bunch of code roaming towns to make them feel populated) examples of good storytelling? Kafei and Anju, the Mummy father from the Music box, and a ton of etcéteras.
iconic music,
an evolving story,
enemy variation,
designed progression
.... and a lot of etcs. that its predecessors had ... but for some INEXCUSABLE reason BOTW didn't have.
When THAT is added and not just "freedom" and "creativity" ... THEN it will become the TRUE evolution of Zelda that has been built upon its predecessors. Even Zelda 1 knew that it couldn't survive on "freedom" alone, it gave you a designed experience built upon your progression of its dungeons in relation to the overall experience of exploration and item acquisition.
In the meantime its just another open-world with sandbox elements on it with the Zelda name slapped on top catering to youtubers and the Minecraft generation.
I wish Im wrong with TotK … believe me. I want to enjoy the game as much as you. And I enjoyed BOTW for what it’s worth when it released. It was only some years down the line that I realized there was something missing from my experience with it.
I just tend to analyze videogame design or the Zelda DNA quite more.
And tbh, I have the game preordered, (something I shouldn’t have done if I want to support my arguments) you know, “Vote with your wallet”
But I sweat Zelda… I love it… and I just need it. I need to know if TotK is better by playing it by myself.
@LikelySatan …. This … @ArcticEcho couldn’t have said it better.
Even the first Zelda was like that. People keep comparing BOTW to what Zelda 1 was trying to achieve.
That’s not true. Zelda 1 was a designed experience. There were temples uniquely designed, bosses in each, and a sense of progression in which you got unique items in each temple to advance further and further.
It wasn’t a sandbox, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Each Zelda followed a Metroidvania formula and I can get completely behind and support the argument of ArcticEcho
@ArcticEcho tbh I wasn’t a fan of the “rent an item” system and the reuse of the AlttP map. Even though… I really liked the game because of the graffiti system they implemented. The temples, etc. It’s a true Zelda. What can I say. I wish for the next Zelda we can have a little more compressed thus designed Zelda experience.
@roy130390 exactly… but then you didn’t like Zelda in the first place. You liked something else. And when they added that “something else” from other games, you started liking it.
I loved Zelda for some 35+ years and this became something so detached from what it was before that it’s usually the newcomers disguised as old fans who enjoy and praise BOTW and TotK.
I know I’ll enjoy the game because it seems it’s a good game, but really far from what Zelda was.
You say that it’s only a small amount of people, but actually I see A LOT of people who were complaining about BOTW… so much that it became a problem that needed to be addressed so vast that many people were worried about dungeons not being a thing in the sequel.
Nintendo doesn’t backtrack and think about their designs (in this case dungeons) just because “5 or 10 people complained.”
I guess that’s perspective and what people see what they want to see when someone criticizes their favorite things, sometimes they become blind or oblivious to fanatism.
I know because never in my 35+ years playing Zelda I would have imagined throwing dirt at my favorite IP since I was 5 years old
So sad that we keep encouraging this style of Zelda …. But I’m glad it’s a good game. I’ll be playing it and see if it can change my mind or is it just the good old Zelda cycle where everyone gives 10s day one and years down the line people start ripping the game apart.
Come on … we all know BOTW and TotK players are mostly casuals and new to the Zelda IP. Of course it’s designed that way
Also … were there characters beside the Champions descendants in BOTW? I remember most being just generic NPCs with nothing interesting to add to the world or it’s storytelling
@Zeldinion to be honest there’s not a single side quest in BOTW that made me care about the story it was telling. That’s one thing that’s present in good storytelling in sidequests. Second, the champions are not real NPCs. They are secondary characters. NPCs would be like any townspeople.
In BOTW they are not important, you don’t care for them, they are just a bunch of code roaming the town for them to feel populated.
You cannot compare anything in BOTW for something like Kafei and Anju or the Mummy dad in the music box house, and those are just a couple examples of good storytelling in sidequests. I dare you give me a good example in BOTW.
For the bosses… really? The Ganon blights as good bosses? They are hit sponges, there’s not strategy, there’s no puzzle or thinking involved to defeat them, as well as generic designs for ALL four of them.
There’s no nostalgia involved in what I’m asking… I just have better taste and analysis for what I find good things in Zelda or a videogame…. Not just liking it because it’s the “YouTube trend”.
If TotK improves all these then you have people who complained to thank for … not the people who praised BOTW for what it was … because that’s called conformism. And Zelda wouldn’t improve because of people who just said it was perfect to begin with…. Because it was FAR from it.
@Nintendo-or-Noth what you forget is that Zelda isn't only about freedom. Zelda is not a sandbox and had never been before BOTW. Open world? Sure. But not a sandbox. Neither Minecrafty nor Bolts and Nutsy.
You want to say that it has build up everything from its predecessors? Then add:
themed dungeons,
items, not the same 4 boring runes you've been using for the past 100+ hours.
meaningful sidequests,
heart pieces,
meaningful rewards other than rupees, random weapons and random materials,
bosses,
iconic NPCs with backstories,
iconic music,
an evolving story,
enemy variation,
designed progression
.... and a lot of etcs. that its predecessors had ... but for some INEXCUSABLE reason BOTW didn't have.
When THAT is added and not just "freedom" and "creativity" ... THEN it will become the TRUE evolution of Zelda that has been built upon its predecessors. Even Zelda 1 knew that it couldn't survive on "freedom" alone, it gave you a designed experience built upon your progression of its dungeons in relation to the overall experience of exploration and item acquisition.
In the meantime its just another open-world with sandbox elements on it with the Zelda name slapped on top catering to youtubers and the Minecraft generation.
Records and sales mean nothing. If we go by that argument then Call of Duty and GTA must be the "bestest of the bestest games in the universe"
LMAO
@rjejr exactly… and actually I think I remember it worked that way in Phantom Hourglass … with the parts of the boats… but you got them from random chests in the sea. (That’s excusable because of the hardware limitations)
The problem with BOTW is that you have such a vast space in which Nintendo needed to put something for you to find and do…. And in that game they only found that as a reason to put random materiales, rupees and random weapons. But after the 100th time… finding a chest comes with no sense of surprise or reward (something that was amazing in previous Zeldas)
Now they have the chance to put valuable things in chests and they opt for random gacha mechanics????!! FML!!! What are they thinking?
@Nintendo-or-Noth lol… I have played every single Zelda game since I was 5 years old starting with the first during the NES days.
I sweat Zelda.
Can you tell me where have you seen spaceship and vehicle parts and missiles in a Zelda game akin to a Nuts&Bolts gameplay?
No… I think you can’t.
It’s obvious @ArcticEcho is talking about BOTW and TotK …. Nobody was talking Zelda as a franchise…. Because he/she literally criticized TotK as being all over the place, which you then replied to. 🙄
@blindsquarel I know that ... what I mean is literal ... in-game gacha for vehicle parts and spaceship parts........................................... in a Zelda game…. Ooph
In-game Gacha for vehicle parts in a Zelda game.... never, since I played this franchise 30+ years ago, would have thought this would be a thing in Zelda ....
This game better be good because it sounds like a fever dream that I want to wake up from in the next 6 years to play the next, better Zelda game.
@Bistro456 uuuuh… we are gonna have a field day if there aren’t real dungeons. The fanbase will tear the game apart, hopefully leading the way to a change in the formula 🤞
@Ralek85 I gotta agree. I can’t believe that, after 35 years with this franchise, what strayed me away from Zelda… wasn’t repetition at all…. But these new but unZelda things.
Breath of the Wild sure was fun… for ONE entry … NOT THREE!
There’s so much things that original fans are still waiting confirmation of …. I really don’t want to know if we can attach sandpaper to swords or machine guns to bows…… or fans to Jeeps to make a flying tank rocketship.
Those are not things why I started playing Zelda 30+ years ago. Exploration in BotW… yeah, I can get behind that, that’s really Zelda-ish.
But what the hell is this gimmicky Youtubery crap?
Nothing of what I read spoke to me AT ALL.
I’m really worried if the first ‘interesting’ thing in a Zelda game we can talk about is building cars and gimmicky item fusion.
This speaks to YouTubers, not Longtime Zelda fans.
If I wanted to play Minecraft, I’d play Minecraft
They massacred my boy into a random sandbox game. :/
@deafdood I totally agree. It is 100% a fun game (I did love it on release). But in retrospective, It’s just not a good Zelda game. But, that’s debatable. Let’s see how TotK does. I hope it’s good and brings back everything original fans have been asking for these past 5 years.
If not, I think Nintendo should go back to the drawing board and analyze their own formula once again.
@deafdood it was a new game in the same map as A Link to the Past.
And because Nintendo practically forgot …
@solarwolf07 so practically we can get to a similar conclusion that BotW is loved by ‘mostly’ newcomers who haven’t played a Zelda before. That makes a lot of sense as to why people tend to defend it and not see what is missing from it.
@Anachronism well, X’s soundtrack was composed by Hiroyuki Sawano, who made the music of Attack On Titan. He is a masterful composer with an excellent pedigree. I’d say X has one of the best OST’s of the franchise. However it’s a bit different from the main games.
@JohnnyMind just read it. And I completely agree with you as its most of my same arguments.
I would partly agree with the towns. The thing is… I understand the quantity of towns… (because of the post-apocalyptic theme as you mentioned) but not the quality.
Every town feels generic. The people living in them are as generic as they come. The people living in them are not really characters, they don’t have motivations, backstories, anything. They are generic NPCs.
If you compare those towns to something akin to Majoras, or Skyward or any other Kakariko…. They feel lifeless, they don’t give you any reason to help them, to see more about them. And in the meantime, get some meaningful quests with worthwhile rewards like items or heart pieces.
Nothing feels like the towns in previous Zeldas.
We have seen iconic side characters, zany and weird, sad and tragic. Anju and Kafei feel like real, living characters. Malon, Talon, Mido, each with their own story, among many others feel important to the living world. (There are complete enciclopedias just for characters in the Zelda games)
Because the world shouldn’t be just topographic variation with ecosystems. It needs to feel alive. It needs characters living within it. Not just your 5-7 main and secondary characters.
In this regard, BOTW is a complete failure.
I mean I AM ERROR has more personality than any other NPC in BotW… and that is saying something.
Every NPC feels inconsequential. I don’t care if they live or die. They don’t need saving. They feel just like a bunch of code walking around the towns.
Everything else you said I 100% agree.
I’d also add that BotW bosses are a bit generic and just hit sponges. There’s no strategy, there’s no activity to defeat them that made you think about using that new shiny item you just got.
Just use the same four runes that you’ve been using for 50 hours straight … and hit A.
Also.. as @tounushi said. There should be incentives to backtrack. Let’s say a bit of Metroidvania to the mix. You can get an item at the north of the map that will give you access to an island, a cliff, cave or a mountain or whatever at the south of the map. That gives you the element of “wow! I discovered something new! Something inaccessible before! This feels good, it’s a good reward!”
I shouldn’t even say Metroidvania…. That’s been part of Zelda’s DNA from the very first game. How the hell could they eliminate that?
But this is lost in BotW because, you can go wherever you want from the start. I’m up for freedom, but too much freedom gives the feel that nothing is really DESIGNED. It’s just a big random sandbox with things randomly sprinkled on it.
Also… building modern vehicles? What the hell Nintendo? Stick to a theme FFS.
@Gorlock that it’s a fun game, it is, no doubt. But you can’t say “it misses nothing” if you’ve never played another Zelda game, because you don’t know what IS a Zelda game in the first place. Your only complete experience with the series is BOTW.
That’s the equivalent of saying that “The 1993 Mario movie is a true Mario movie just because you liked it a lot, although you’ve never played the games”.
I mean, sure, you have fun with TotK… we are all hoping it’s a good game. Nobody wants a bad Zelda tbh. In a way, we are all trying to analyze what it’s missing from the core series that made Zelda a Zelda game and hope it can steer into that direction.
There’s nothing bad to bring BOTW elements and add them to the next ride too. There’s just no valid excuse to sacrifice everything else in the process. 👍
Studio Trigger never disappoints with their animation. They are some of the best in the industry, although their plots are a little excessive, their animation style fits into their storytelling.
@Gorlock if you’ve never played a Zelda game since the SNES one (which you didn’t even finish) and only BOTW…. How do you even know what’s missing and what is not?
Lol this logic.
This is exactly the blind BOTW fanatism that is diluting the series down.
Anyway…I’m out.
See you guys on the 12th. Hope TotK is a great game and added all the things we are asking for… if not… it’s time to move on from this style. It had enough time in the spotlight
@skeets Zelda is the mix of both things. The sum of all its parts.
If only exploration is what makes a Zelda game, then I guess The Witcher, Elden Ring and any other Souls-like game is a Zelda game.
You can’t have exploration only without the dungeons, and everything else that was described in the comment section.
@Pak-Man yeah.. if you ignore the fact that that game had unique items, dungeons, bosses and a sense of progression….. Then yeah… it’s EXACTLY as the first game Lol…
Now imagine the first game… with only four dungeons that are exactly the same, no bosses except Ganon …. No items… but in place you have four abilities from the start and throughout the whole game… bombs, ladder, flute and bow …… No new ones to discover at all….. what a BORING game that would have been.
Whats wrong with articles like this and BOTW fans in general is … why do you defend the abscence of things?
There isn’t a single excuse as why not to have all the things that constitute a traditional Zelda in a BOTW formula.
Why wouldn’t you want a mix of both things? 🙄🙄🙄.
And the more you defend the abscence of items, themed dungeons, music, bosses, iconic and zany NPCs, side quests, etc …. The less we will get them in the future.
That’s exactly why some BOTW fans come off with toxic positivity. They defend the abscence of all those things. Who wouldn’t want dungeons or items or everything I listed?
Resident Evil is a pretty bad example too.
The new formula works masterfully because they went BACK TO ITS HORROR ROOTS… and then designed a new experience around it. But what constitutes as an old RE game is still there.
Herbs? Check. Puzzles? Check. Horror instead of action? Check. Items and save points? Check. Enclosed spaces like mansions? Check
BOTW has like 50% or less of what constitutes as a Zelda game. That’s why, with time, it has come to be divisive (compared to the first months when it was released)
Also: I NEVER opened a chest in BOTW that was meaningful or a surprise like in the old Zeldas.
Yey…. Rupees for the 1000th time … Yey! Another ore …. Sigh… another ingredient …. Another breakable weapon… another ANYTHING I can get any other place in the game. It’s the equivalent of getting bombs and arrows in an old Zelda… but EVERY … SINGLE…. TIME!
Give me meaningful quests with pieces of heart!
Give me unique and useful items to traverse dungeons and new lands to keep things fresh.
I don’t want to use the same four runes during a 60 hour run. Feels cheap, repetitive and unoriginal.
Give me characters which I can get interested to help and develop their backstories! Not generic NPCs.
Give me epic music!
Give me bosses that make me think how to defeat, they were puzzles by themselves… not BOTW hit sponges 🙄
Give me dungeons that feel like I’m actually progressing and feel unique!
But no! We can’t have all that … am I right? Let’s have some Nuts and Bolts instead! And… weapon fusion? Yey?
Let’s pander to the Minecraft generation because…. It sells…
@JohnnyMind to be honest the board game aesthetic doesn't bother me too much. We play this game for the gameplay and the strategic fun factor, not the graphics. I think I remember that you could still change the map size in the custom maps in the originals too, no?
@Thief that’s not how things work. Wayforward is the developer. Nintendo is the publisher and the owner. Wayforward doesn’t choose where to release the game. Wayforward is the employee, Nintendo is the employer. Developers just develop the games. They don’t have a single say in how, where and when titles release. Nintendo is the one who allocates the budget for game development and final say in things.
Sorry, but that’s how things work in the gaming industry.
Nintendo made the choice not to release it in Japan because they don’t see an audience over there.
Also, Days of Ruin sold 320,000 units in the US alone, which is a pretty healthy figure for a DS game.
While Dual Strike sold 340,000 in both countries.
What we can both agree on is that it’s stupid not releasing it in Japan, as those games already are in Japanese. Obviously Nintendo didn’t want to allocate resources in marketing and shipping. But they could at least have tried to see if there was a market.
@Thief “I believe WayForward cut corners everywhere they could (from barebones multiplayer to skipping over Japan entirely probably so they didn't need to hire Japanese voice actors)“
LOL… no Wayforward doesn’t have a say in which territories the game is released. That’s up to Nintendo, as well as the budget. It’s not like they wouldn’t release it in Japan because of something as trivial as voice actors.
In my previous comment, after my research, I said that the reason they don’t release this games in Japan is because of the poor sales caused by the delays after 9/11…. That combined with the fact that not even Days of Ruin was released over there. That killed the IP in Japan.
@Thief for the Fire Emblem treatment I mean the almost yearly releases. Although I didn’t know that it wasn’t releasing in Japan. It seems the series over there have been low due to the original GBA game being heavily delayed due to 9/11. After that, the series never recovered with sales over there.
Anyway, the point I meant is that, as a strategy game, Advance Wars is heavily superior over FE from a gameplay perspective and I wish it could get a boost so we could get new games each, I don’t know, a couple or each 3 years, instead of FE.
Also, it seems that Advance Wars Days of Ruin never released in Japan either… what the hell?
It was even developed in Japan.
I think WOKE is used to describe when something politicaly correct is forced when it shouldn't be there in the first place.
Peach has been fighting and SOMETIMES being a strong female co-protagonist for a few decades now... so the movie in no way is WOKE just because Peach has something to do in the movie. Males and females can have the same important roles in any story.
Woke would have been... I don't know ... CHANGING Luigi to GAY or CHINESE just for the sake of FORCED "diversity" for a broader audience (for the monies $$)
Anti-woke ... (never heard it before) ... I guess means something that tries to go against that train of thought in which you don't need to change original characterization just because?
Comments 1,987
Re: Review: The Legend Of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom - An Absolute Marvel, But Is It Better Than BOTW?
@UltimateOtaku91 the thing is .... is going open-world an excuse to sacrifice everything else? Or are we delluding oursevles and being blinded by fanboyism and fanatism?
Why is going open-world an excuse to eliminate everything else? Who says we can't have an open world with everything I listed above that made a Zelda... Zelda?
Going open world is not my gripe about these games ... its the lack of focus and coherence about ALL the things that made Zelda special.
Give me TotK or BotW .... but add all the previous stuff.
It's not an evolution if you eliminate everything from the DNA ... its just like it was said before... a change of GENRE.
People are projecting what they like about OTHER GAMES into these games... which is disgusting AF.
I don't care about sales either... you can attribute that to the console its in too. The Switch is a monster, its obvious its going to sell way much more, there's more population and gaming is more common now than it was 12 years ago when the last Zelda before BotW released.
BOTW is a really good game… but it’s, in my opinion, a bad Zelda game.
Re: Review: The Legend Of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom - An Absolute Marvel, But Is It Better Than BOTW?
@LikelySatan I Guess he meant DLCequel … lol
Re: Review: The Legend Of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom - An Absolute Marvel, But Is It Better Than BOTW?
@roy130390 @likelysatan it’s not that I’m saying you’re not a true fan… but from my experience … 90% of people I argue with about BOTW are people who it is their first or second Zelda game they have ever played. They are newcomers. They don’t know the DNA of Zelda as well as people who have been playing it for years and seen it’s growth.
For other thing, I have pretty much many arguments as to why I consider it a vanilla Zelda experience. A proof of concept as some people call BOTW.
what you forget is that Zelda isn't only about freedom. Zelda is not a sandbox and had never been before BOTW. Open world? Sure. But not a sandbox. Neither Minecrafty nor Bolts and Nutsy.
People say that that BotW built up everything from its predecessors? Then they should have added:
themed or better designed dungeons,
items, not the same 4 boring runes you've been using for the past 100+ hours.
meaningful sidequests,
heart pieces,
meaningful rewards other than rupees, random weapons and random materials,
bosses, (the blights are just hit sponges with no strategy involved with a generic design feeling samey with each other)
iconic NPCs with backstories, (there’s not a single ounce of storytelling for them in BOTW… townsfolk are just a bunch of code roaming towns to make them feel populated) examples of good storytelling? Kafei and Anju, the Mummy father from the Music box, and a ton of etcéteras.
iconic music,
an evolving story,
enemy variation,
designed progression
.... and a lot of etcs. that its predecessors had ... but for some INEXCUSABLE reason BOTW didn't have.
When THAT is added and not just "freedom" and "creativity" ... THEN it will become the TRUE evolution of Zelda that has been built upon its predecessors. Even Zelda 1 knew that it couldn't survive on "freedom" alone, it gave you a designed experience built upon your progression of its dungeons in relation to the overall experience of exploration and item acquisition.
In the meantime its just another open-world with sandbox elements on it with the Zelda name slapped on top catering to youtubers and the Minecraft generation.
I wish Im wrong with TotK … believe me. I want to enjoy the game as much as you. And I enjoyed BOTW for what it’s worth when it released. It was only some years down the line that I realized there was something missing from my experience with it.
I just tend to analyze videogame design or the Zelda DNA quite more.
And tbh, I have the game preordered, (something I shouldn’t have done if I want to support my arguments) you know, “Vote with your wallet”
But I sweat Zelda… I love it… and I just need it. I need to know if TotK is better by playing it by myself.
Re: Review: The Legend Of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom - An Absolute Marvel, But Is It Better Than BOTW?
@LikelySatan …. This … @ArcticEcho couldn’t have said it better.
Even the first Zelda was like that. People keep comparing BOTW to what Zelda 1 was trying to achieve.
That’s not true. Zelda 1 was a designed experience. There were temples uniquely designed, bosses in each, and a sense of progression in which you got unique items in each temple to advance further and further.
It wasn’t a sandbox, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Each Zelda followed a Metroidvania formula and I can get completely behind and support the argument of ArcticEcho
Re: Review: The Legend Of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom - An Absolute Marvel, But Is It Better Than BOTW?
@ArcticEcho tbh I wasn’t a fan of the “rent an item” system and the reuse of the AlttP map.
Even though… I really liked the game because of the graffiti system they implemented. The temples, etc.
It’s a true Zelda. What can I say. I wish for the next Zelda we can have a little more compressed thus designed Zelda experience.
Re: Review: The Legend Of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom - An Absolute Marvel, But Is It Better Than BOTW?
@roy130390 exactly… but then you didn’t like Zelda in the first place. You liked something else. And when they added that “something else” from other games, you started liking it.
I loved Zelda for some 35+ years and this became something so detached from what it was before that it’s usually the newcomers disguised as old fans who enjoy and praise BOTW and TotK.
I know I’ll enjoy the game because it seems it’s a good game, but really far from what Zelda was.
You say that it’s only a small amount of people, but actually I see A LOT of people who were complaining about BOTW… so much that it became a problem that needed to be addressed so vast that many people were worried about dungeons not being a thing in the sequel.
Nintendo doesn’t backtrack and think about their designs (in this case dungeons) just because “5 or 10 people complained.”
I guess that’s perspective and what people see what they want to see when someone criticizes their favorite things, sometimes they become blind or oblivious to fanatism.
I know because never in my 35+ years playing Zelda I would have imagined throwing dirt at my favorite IP since I was 5 years old
Re: Review: The Legend Of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom - An Absolute Marvel, But Is It Better Than BOTW?
So sad that we keep encouraging this style of Zelda …. But I’m glad it’s a good game. I’ll be playing it and see if it can change my mind or is it just the good old Zelda cycle where everyone gives 10s day one and years down the line people start ripping the game apart.
Re: Nintendo Survey Asks Players What Kind Of Game They Want Pikmin 4 To Be
I cant wait to build vehicles in Pikmin 4 too…………….. 🙄
Re: Zelda Devs Confirm The Return Of Fan-Favourite Feature In TOTK
Now... if we could only get rid of those vehicles and have heart pieces and items again with some good sidequests to fill the world....
Hope this turns out better than what I am expecting.
Re: The Legend Of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Can Still Be Enjoyed By New Players
Come on … we all know BOTW and TotK players are mostly casuals and new to the Zelda IP. Of course it’s designed that way
Also … were there characters beside the Champions descendants in BOTW? I remember most being just generic NPCs with nothing interesting to add to the world or it’s storytelling
Re: Zelda Speedrunners Excited About New Mechanics In Tears Of The Kingdom
Booo… bring the next Zelda game. I don’t need to build spaceships and tanks in this franchise. Keep it in the medieval fantasy theme.
These features are exactly tailored for YouTube influencers and followers. This isn’t Fortnite or Minecraft
I do hope it’s a good game but I can’t wait until we go down another route for the next Zelda game
Re: Nintendo Teases How The ‘Gacha’ Mechanic Works In Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom
@Zeldinion to be honest there’s not a single side quest in BOTW that made me care about the story it was telling. That’s one thing that’s present in good storytelling in sidequests. Second, the champions are not real NPCs. They are secondary characters. NPCs would be like any townspeople.
In BOTW they are not important, you don’t care for them, they are just a bunch of code roaming the town for them to feel populated.
You cannot compare anything in BOTW for something like Kafei and Anju or the Mummy dad in the music box house, and those are just a couple examples of good storytelling in sidequests. I dare you give me a good example in BOTW.
For the bosses… really? The Ganon blights as good bosses? They are hit sponges, there’s not strategy, there’s no puzzle or thinking involved to defeat them, as well as generic designs for ALL four of them.
There’s no nostalgia involved in what I’m asking… I just have better taste and analysis for what I find good things in Zelda or a videogame…. Not just liking it because it’s the “YouTube trend”.
If TotK improves all these then you have people who complained to thank for … not the people who praised BOTW for what it was … because that’s called conformism. And Zelda wouldn’t improve because of people who just said it was perfect to begin with…. Because it was FAR from it.
Re: Nintendo Teases How The ‘Gacha’ Mechanic Works In Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom
@Nintendo-or-Noth what you forget is that Zelda isn't only about freedom. Zelda is not a sandbox and had never been before BOTW. Open world? Sure. But not a sandbox. Neither Minecrafty nor Bolts and Nutsy.
You want to say that it has build up everything from its predecessors? Then add:
items, not the same 4 boring runes you've been using for the past 100+ hours.
meaningful sidequests,
heart pieces,
meaningful rewards other than rupees, random weapons and random materials,
bosses,
iconic NPCs with backstories,
iconic music,
an evolving story,
enemy variation,
designed progression
.... and a lot of etcs. that its predecessors had ... but for some INEXCUSABLE reason BOTW didn't have.
When THAT is added and not just "freedom" and "creativity" ... THEN it will become the TRUE evolution of Zelda that has been built upon its predecessors. Even Zelda 1 knew that it couldn't survive on "freedom" alone, it gave you a designed experience built upon your progression of its dungeons in relation to the overall experience of exploration and item acquisition.
In the meantime its just another open-world with sandbox elements on it with the Zelda name slapped on top catering to youtubers and the Minecraft generation.
Records and sales mean nothing. If we go by that argument then Call of Duty and GTA must be the "bestest of the bestest games in the universe"
LMAO
Re: Nintendo Teases How The ‘Gacha’ Mechanic Works In Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom
@rjejr exactly… and actually I think I remember it worked that way in Phantom Hourglass … with the parts of the boats… but you got them from random chests in the sea. (That’s excusable because of the hardware limitations)
The problem with BOTW is that you have such a vast space in which Nintendo needed to put something for you to find and do…. And in that game they only found that as a reason to put random materiales, rupees and random weapons. But after the 100th time… finding a chest comes with no sense of surprise or reward (something that was amazing in previous Zeldas)
Now they have the chance to put valuable things in chests and they opt for random gacha mechanics????!! FML!!! What are they thinking?
Re: Nintendo Teases How The ‘Gacha’ Mechanic Works In Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom
@Nintendo-or-Noth lol… I have played every single Zelda game since I was 5 years old starting with the first during the NES days.
I sweat Zelda.
Can you tell me where have you seen spaceship and vehicle parts and missiles in a Zelda game akin to a Nuts&Bolts gameplay?
No… I think you can’t.
It’s obvious @ArcticEcho is talking about BOTW and TotK …. Nobody was talking Zelda as a franchise…. Because he/she literally criticized TotK as being all over the place, which you then replied to. 🙄
TotK isn’t trend setting anything LMAO.
Re: Nintendo Teases Gacha Mechanics In Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom
@rjejr Or at least in chests.... I don't need ore for the 100th time undermining the value and surprise of finding a chest in a Zelda game....
Re: Nintendo Teases Gacha Mechanics In Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom
@blindsquarel I know that ... what I mean is literal ... in-game gacha for vehicle parts and spaceship parts........................................... in a Zelda game…. Ooph
Re: Nintendo Teases Gacha Mechanics In Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom
In-game Gacha for vehicle parts in a Zelda game.... never, since I played this franchise 30+ years ago, would have thought this would be a thing in Zelda ....
This game better be good because it sounds like a fever dream that I want to wake up from in the next 6 years to play the next, better Zelda game.
Re: The Super Mario Bros. Movie Breaks More Box Office Records Around The World
And that’s counting that ticket prices over here are quite cheap compared to other countries … meaning that people are flocking to see the movie
Re: Random: Japanese Orchestra Performs Two-Hour Zelda: Breath Of The Wild Concert
Wait….. BOTW had interesting music that wasn’t the trailer song?
I’m amazed …
Re: Pokémon GO's Monthly Earnings Have Fallen To A Five-Year Low
Good… after they banned my account permanently I wish for their fall. Good riddance
Re: Watch Out, Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Leaks Are Out In The Wild
Removed
Re: Watch Out, Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Leaks Are Out In The Wild
@Bistro456 uuuuh… we are gonna have a field day if there aren’t real dungeons. The fanbase will tear the game apart, hopefully leading the way to a change in the formula 🤞
Re: Watch Out, Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Leaks Are Out In The Wild
Yeah yeah… so… at least we can get confirmation if there are REAL DUNGEONS?
Re: Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom "Hands On" Performance & Resolution Detailed
Give me dungeons, give me items. I don’t care about 60fps 4k.
Re: Hands On: Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Indulges Your Idiocy In The Very Best Way
@Ralek85 I gotta agree. I can’t believe that, after 35 years with this franchise, what strayed me away from Zelda… wasn’t repetition at all…. But these new but unZelda things.
Breath of the Wild sure was fun… for ONE entry … NOT THREE!
There’s so much things that original fans are still waiting confirmation of …. I really don’t want to know if we can attach sandpaper to swords or machine guns to bows…… or fans to Jeeps to make a flying tank rocketship.
Those are not things why I started playing Zelda 30+ years ago. Exploration in BotW… yeah, I can get behind that, that’s really Zelda-ish.
But what the hell is this gimmicky Youtubery crap?
Re: Hands On: Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Indulges Your Idiocy In The Very Best Way
Nothing of what I read spoke to me AT ALL.
I’m really worried if the first ‘interesting’ thing in a Zelda game we can talk about is building cars and gimmicky item fusion.
This speaks to YouTubers, not Longtime Zelda fans.
If I wanted to play Minecraft, I’d play Minecraft
They massacred my boy into a random sandbox game. :/
Re: Random: Nintendo's New Zelda Video Asks "When Did You First Wield The Master Sword?"
@deafdood I totally agree. It is 100% a fun game (I did love it on release). But in retrospective, It’s just not a good Zelda game. But, that’s debatable. Let’s see how TotK does. I hope it’s good and brings back everything original fans have been asking for these past 5 years.
If not, I think Nintendo should go back to the drawing board and analyze their own formula once again.
Re: Random: Nintendo's New Zelda Video Asks "When Did You First Wield The Master Sword?"
@deafdood it was a new game in the same map as A Link to the Past.
And because Nintendo practically forgot …
@solarwolf07 so practically we can get to a similar conclusion that BotW is loved by ‘mostly’ newcomers who haven’t played a Zelda before. That makes a lot of sense as to why people tend to defend it and not see what is missing from it.
Most come from the Minecraft generation. Sigh
Re: Random: Nintendo's New Zelda Video Asks "When Did You First Wield The Master Sword?"
A Link to the Past. Have been playing Zelda since the NES days as a 4 year old. This franchise is injected in my veins.
Also, ‘technically’ the Master Sword also appeared in the Oracle games.
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
@ModdedInkling I think you’re confusing ‘canon’ with ‘mainline’
But then we would need another article for what is considered mainline in Zelda hahaha and I don’t want to keep arguing on technicalities.
Re: Soapbox: Torna - The Golden Country Is One Of The Best DLCs Of All Time
@Anachronism well, X’s soundtrack was composed by Hiroyuki Sawano, who made the music of Attack On Titan. He is a masterful composer with an excellent pedigree. I’d say X has one of the best OST’s of the franchise. However it’s a bit different from the main games.
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
@JohnnyMind just read it. And I completely agree with you as its most of my same arguments.
I would partly agree with the towns. The thing is… I understand the quantity of towns… (because of the post-apocalyptic theme as you mentioned) but not the quality.
Every town feels generic. The people living in them are as generic as they come. The people living in them are not really characters, they don’t have motivations, backstories, anything. They are generic NPCs.
If you compare those towns to something akin to Majoras, or Skyward or any other Kakariko…. They feel lifeless, they don’t give you any reason to help them, to see more about them. And in the meantime, get some meaningful quests with worthwhile rewards like items or heart pieces.
Nothing feels like the towns in previous Zeldas.
We have seen iconic side characters, zany and weird, sad and tragic. Anju and Kafei feel like real, living characters. Malon, Talon, Mido, each with their own story, among many others feel important to the living world. (There are complete enciclopedias just for characters in the Zelda games)
Because the world shouldn’t be just topographic variation with ecosystems. It needs to feel alive. It needs characters living within it. Not just your 5-7 main and secondary characters.
In this regard, BOTW is a complete failure.
I mean I AM ERROR has more personality than any other NPC in BotW… and that is saying something.
Every NPC feels inconsequential. I don’t care if they live or die. They don’t need saving. They feel just like a bunch of code walking around the towns.
Everything else you said I 100% agree.
I’d also add that BotW bosses are a bit generic and just hit sponges. There’s no strategy, there’s no activity to defeat them that made you think about using that new shiny item you just got.
Just use the same four runes that you’ve been using for 50 hours straight … and hit A.
Also.. as @tounushi said. There should be incentives to backtrack. Let’s say a bit of Metroidvania to the mix. You can get an item at the north of the map that will give you access to an island, a cliff, cave or a mountain or whatever at the south of the map. That gives you the element of “wow! I discovered something new! Something inaccessible before! This feels good, it’s a good reward!”
I shouldn’t even say Metroidvania…. That’s been part of Zelda’s DNA from the very first game. How the hell could they eliminate that?
But this is lost in BotW because, you can go wherever you want from the start. I’m up for freedom, but too much freedom gives the feel that nothing is really DESIGNED. It’s just a big random sandbox with things randomly sprinkled on it.
Also… building modern vehicles? What the hell Nintendo? Stick to a theme FFS.
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
@Gorlock that it’s a fun game, it is, no doubt. But you can’t say “it misses nothing” if you’ve never played another Zelda game, because you don’t know what IS a Zelda game in the first place. Your only complete experience with the series is BOTW.
That’s the equivalent of saying that “The 1993 Mario movie is a true Mario movie just because you liked it a lot, although you’ve never played the games”.
I mean, sure, you have fun with TotK… we are all hoping it’s a good game. Nobody wants a bad Zelda tbh. In a way, we are all trying to analyze what it’s missing from the core series that made Zelda a Zelda game and hope it can steer into that direction.
There’s nothing bad to bring BOTW elements and add them to the next ride too. There’s just no valid excuse to sacrifice everything else in the process. 👍
Re: Studio Trigger Reveals Stunning Opening Cinematic For New Switch Free-To-Play Omega Strikers
Studio Trigger never disappoints with their animation. They are some of the best in the industry, although their plots are a little excessive, their animation style fits into their storytelling.
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
@Gorlock if you’ve never played a Zelda game since the SNES one (which you didn’t even finish) and only BOTW…. How do you even know what’s missing and what is not?
Lol this logic.
This is exactly the blind BOTW fanatism that is diluting the series down.
Anyway…I’m out.
See you guys on the 12th. Hope TotK is a great game and added all the things we are asking for… if not… it’s time to move on from this style. It had enough time in the spotlight
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
@ModdedInkling yeah… but are they a mainline Zelda? Or got sequels to them?
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
@skeets Zelda is the mix of both things. The sum of all its parts.
If only exploration is what makes a Zelda game, then I guess The Witcher, Elden Ring and any other Souls-like game is a Zelda game.
You can’t have exploration only without the dungeons, and everything else that was described in the comment section.
Because then BOTW isn’t anything unique.
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
@Pak-Man yeah.. if you ignore the fact that that game had unique items, dungeons, bosses and a sense of progression….. Then yeah… it’s EXACTLY as the first game Lol…
Now imagine the first game… with only four dungeons that are exactly the same, no bosses except Ganon …. No items… but in place you have four abilities from the start and throughout the whole game… bombs, ladder, flute and bow …… No new ones to discover at all….. what a BORING game that would have been.
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
I’m glad to read so many good arguments and analysis in this comment section and not just
“TotK is GOTY! Suck it old timers! BOTW formula F yeah!”
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
@ModdedInkling well, you’re comparing it to the worst game in the series…. That’s not really a good argument 😅.
Nobody likes that game as a Zelda game. Sure, it was fun… but it’s not a good Zelda game either.
Re: Talking Point: What Is A 'Traditional' Zelda Game, Anyway?
Whats wrong with articles like this and BOTW fans in general is … why do you defend the abscence of things?
There isn’t a single excuse as why not to have all the things that constitute a traditional Zelda in a BOTW formula.
Why wouldn’t you want a mix of both things? 🙄🙄🙄.
And the more you defend the abscence of items, themed dungeons, music, bosses, iconic and zany NPCs, side quests, etc …. The less we will get them in the future.
That’s exactly why some BOTW fans come off with toxic positivity. They defend the abscence of all those things. Who wouldn’t want dungeons or items or everything I listed?
Resident Evil is a pretty bad example too.
The new formula works masterfully because they went BACK TO ITS HORROR ROOTS… and then designed a new experience around it. But what constitutes as an old RE game is still there.
Herbs? Check. Puzzles? Check. Horror instead of action? Check. Items and save points? Check. Enclosed spaces like mansions? Check
BOTW has like 50% or less of what constitutes as a Zelda game. That’s why, with time, it has come to be divisive (compared to the first months when it was released)
Also: I NEVER opened a chest in BOTW that was meaningful or a surprise like in the old Zeldas.
Yey…. Rupees for the 1000th time … Yey! Another ore …. Sigh… another ingredient …. Another breakable weapon… another ANYTHING I can get any other place in the game. It’s the equivalent of getting bombs and arrows in an old Zelda… but EVERY … SINGLE…. TIME!
Give me meaningful quests with pieces of heart!
Give me unique and useful items to traverse dungeons and new lands to keep things fresh.
I don’t want to use the same four runes during a 60 hour run. Feels cheap, repetitive and unoriginal.
Give me characters which I can get interested to help and develop their backstories! Not generic NPCs.
Give me epic music!
Give me bosses that make me think how to defeat, they were puzzles by themselves… not BOTW hit sponges 🙄
Give me dungeons that feel like I’m actually progressing and feel unique!
But no! We can’t have all that … am I right? Let’s have some Nuts and Bolts instead! And… weapon fusion? Yey?
Let’s pander to the Minecraft generation because…. It sells…
Re: New Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Commercial Wants You To Master Your Imagination
You can do anything…. Except keeping your weapons … those belong to the kingdom
Re: Poll: Box Art Brawl: Final Fantasy IV (DS)
The logo covers will always trump in a FF game ... they are always great logos.
Re: Advance Wars Switch Dev Thanks Fans For Positive Reception, Calls Release A "Life Dream"
@JohnnyMind to be honest the board game aesthetic doesn't bother me too much. We play this game for the gameplay and the strategic fun factor, not the graphics.
I think I remember that you could still change the map size in the custom maps in the originals too, no?
Re: Advance Wars Switch Dev Thanks Fans For Positive Reception, Calls Release A "Life Dream"
@Thief that’s not how things work. Wayforward is the developer. Nintendo is the publisher and the owner. Wayforward doesn’t choose where to release the game. Wayforward is the employee, Nintendo is the employer. Developers just develop the games. They don’t have a single say in how, where and when titles release. Nintendo is the one who allocates the budget for game development and final say in things.
Sorry, but that’s how things work in the gaming industry.
Nintendo made the choice not to release it in Japan because they don’t see an audience over there.
Also, Days of Ruin sold 320,000 units in the US alone, which is a pretty healthy figure for a DS game.
While Dual Strike sold 340,000 in both countries.
What we can both agree on is that it’s stupid not releasing it in Japan, as those games already are in Japanese. Obviously Nintendo didn’t want to allocate resources in marketing and shipping. But they could at least have tried to see if there was a market.
Re: Advance Wars Switch Dev Thanks Fans For Positive Reception, Calls Release A "Life Dream"
@Thief “I believe WayForward cut corners everywhere they could (from barebones multiplayer to skipping over Japan entirely probably so they didn't need to hire Japanese voice actors)“
LOL… no Wayforward doesn’t have a say in which territories the game is released. That’s up to Nintendo, as well as the budget. It’s not like they wouldn’t release it in Japan because of something as trivial as voice actors.
In my previous comment, after my research, I said that the reason they don’t release this games in Japan is because of the poor sales caused by the delays after 9/11…. That combined with the fact that not even Days of Ruin was released over there. That killed the IP in Japan.
Not for something so meager as voice acting
Re: Advance Wars Switch Dev Thanks Fans For Positive Reception, Calls Release A "Life Dream"
@Thief for the Fire Emblem treatment I mean the almost yearly releases. Although I didn’t know that it wasn’t releasing in Japan. It seems the series over there have been low due to the original GBA game being heavily delayed due to 9/11. After that, the series never recovered with sales over there.
Anyway, the point I meant is that, as a strategy game, Advance Wars is heavily superior over FE from a gameplay perspective and I wish it could get a boost so we could get new games each, I don’t know, a couple or each 3 years, instead of FE.
Also, it seems that Advance Wars Days of Ruin never released in Japan either… what the hell?
It was even developed in Japan.
So THATs why they killed the IP after that game😡😡
Re: Advance Wars Switch Dev Thanks Fans For Positive Reception, Calls Release A "Life Dream"
Please sell well... please sell well.... I need a NEW entry!
This IP deserves the Fire Emblem treatment more than Fire Emblem itself
Re: The Voice Behind Mario Movie's 'Plumbing Commercial Lady' Has Been Revealed
I think WOKE is used to describe when something politicaly correct is forced when it shouldn't be there in the first place.
Peach has been fighting and SOMETIMES being a strong female co-protagonist for a few decades now... so the movie in no way is WOKE just because Peach has something to do in the movie. Males and females can have the same important roles in any story.
Woke would have been... I don't know ... CHANGING Luigi to GAY or CHINESE just for the sake of FORCED "diversity" for a broader audience (for the monies $$)
Anti-woke ... (never heard it before) ... I guess means something that tries to go against that train of thought in which you don't need to change original characterization just because?