The competitive nature of Super Smash Bros. may not interest everyone who likes the series, and long-time director - Masahiro Sakurai - completely understands this. During an interview with The Washington Post around the time of this year’s E3, Sakurai-san said he didn’t really consider professional players or a potential audience when developing new entries in the Smash line.
I feel like a game, at the end of the day, is about playing the game. But if we focus too much on the top level players - or the audience - then the game skews a little bit too much on the technical side.
Sakurai went into more detail about how Nintendo’s philosophy did not align with competitive gaming and likely never would:
The philosophy behind them doesn’t go in line with Nintendo’s philosophy in that some of these players are playing for the prize money...it comes to a point where they’re playing the game for the money, and I feel that kind of direction doesn’t coincide with Nintendo’s view of what games should be.
Acknowledging the simpler design of the Super Smash Bros. series, Sakurai explained how he felt the Smash games are more accessible to audiences in contrast to various other fighting games - like Capcom’s Street Fighter series:
It’s not to say that Street Fighter is failing [by more fully embracing competitive gaming] by any means, but personally, I think any games with command inputs are difficult. The creator side is trying to raise people who do that...it doesn’t beat a game where you press one button to create a special move. I think that’s really easy to pick up for a lot of people.
The speedier tempo in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has also allowed Sakurai to avoid inserting more advanced mechanics, particularly favoured by the Super Smash Bros. Melee fan base:
I think a lot of Melee players love Melee. But at the same time, I think a lot of players, on the other hand, gave up on Melee because it’s too technical, because they can’t keep up with it...And I know there were players who got tendinitis from playing, and messing with the controller so much...that really is hard on the player. And I feel like a game should really focus on what the target audience is.
What do you make of Sakurai's comments about the competitive side of Smash? What kind of game would you prefer? An ultra-competitive title, or one that's more accessible? Tell us in the comments.
[source washingtonpost.com]
Comments 93
Well said Sakurai. I've no doubt that ultimate will be a great game.
He doesn’t want it to have the competitive appeal of Melee but at the same time not a single word was said about having a story mode or a deeper single player experience. I don’t know what to expect. A bigger roster and more Amiibos won’t fix SSB4 problems, you know.
@rushiosan
Did you really expect him to talk about something that hasn't been announced yet? Let's wait for them to talk about single player before jumping to conclusions.
Glad to hear it. From what I've heard from people who've played it, it feels closer to Melee than to SSB4. That being said, 4 is my favorite game in the franchise so even if it wasn't as fast as Melee, I wouldn't care. Nintendo is all about making accessible games that more hardcore players can sink their teeth into as well.
All Sakurai has to concern himself with is ‘is it any fun?’. I he can solve this, he’s golden. I never played a Smash Bros I didn’t enjoy.
Gamers will turn any game into a competitive competition given enough time. Look at what players have achieved with the original Donkey Kong!
I agree with him and I am very glad to hear this is Nintendo and his outlook on what a game should be. I play games cause I want to relax and get pulled in by the game to have fun .
I totally agree with these sentiments. Any game, especially a Nintendo game, should be a game first and foremost.
Melee works because it didn’t aim to be "the perfect competition fighter”. It just aimed to be a good game, and the complexity of it additionally made it a good competition one.
Aim for greatness, and the players will come!
"masahiro sakurai isn't concerned".
> doubt.jpg
The guy's middle name is "concerned"
What if Super Smash Bro is concerned therefore we can proceed Metroid Prime 4 and Yoshi ?.
I appreciate his statements, but Smash has been catering to that crowd since Smash 4. That's why the GameCube controller keeps coming back (I really hate that controller).
Also, it is probably how those players got Tendinitis lol.
The competitive Smash 4 players will jump to Ultimate anyways while the 64 and Melee players will stay with what they play.
So, Sakurai is right in not concerning himself with them.
When you think people have made a competitive scene around Donkey Kong, it becomes obvious you don’t need to put in depth mechanics into a game for people to build tournaments and rankings around it.
Make the game for the most people to enjoy, then let them enjoy it how they want to.
Just like Mario Tennis, it's a cartoon fighting game... people are taking gaming too seriously, just play and have fun.
@SethNintendo Wavedashing isn’t a glitch.
@Nincompoop Or, people like playing games differently and enjoy the competition.
@Agent_Mike Whatever the reason is, I like not having to buy new controllers every console generation, particularly when a Pro controller or a set of JoyCons will set you back $90. Plus, this time the GameCube controller can be used for other multiplayer games like Mario Kart and Splatoon 2. More ways to play is better!
@SethNintendo Wavedashing isn’t like snaking. Snaking was a necessity to do well Mario Kart DS. Wavedashing all over the place in Melee doesn’t do you any favors.
@Alber-san Wasn’t that supposed to be showcased at E3? For wasting so much screen time with a roster show-off and minor changes, they certainly didn’t have any other relevant information to share regarding a story mode.
@TheDragonDAFan I think the analogy is that both snaking and wavedashing require extremely precise, non-intuitive button combinations and they give players who can do them a huge advantage over those who can’t. It’s a bit like how Nintendo isn’t shy about creating hard Mario levels that require lots of skill to complete (try out Grandmaster Galaxy, Champion’s Road, Lost Levels, or the challenge mode from NSMBU - you’ll get your money’s worth!) but they don’t implement advanced Kaizo-type tricks into their games.
@rushiosan I would agree that the E3 presentation was pretty lacklustre (and so did the investors). But I’m optimistic they still have lots to reveal, which will include good single-player content. Even the Subspace Emissary didn’t show up until after E3 ‘07.
@Euler Based on what NIS is giving us later this year I'm really happy with my Switch purchase for 2018. Along with Xenoblade 2:TtGC and Smash I'm all set! Disgaea 1: Complete alone will keep my strategy itch under control till Fire Emblem Three Houses next spring (maybe as early as March).
Though for those who prefer more action heavy games like DMCV or Resident Evil 2: RE, than yeah I can understand the overall disappointment. Hopefully, Tokyo Game Show will give us a few surprises for later this year along with hopefully some more Falcom titles.
@rushiosan Single player modes always get revealed at some point after the initial reveal. Sakurai has stated in interviews that they will be discussed at a later point. Most likely, we just have to wait for the inevitable dedicated Smash direct for that information.
Said this months ago and was shot down.
Catering to pro players ruins games.
Make a good game.
Hopefully this is a sign solo players will be catered for
I mostly play Smash 1v1 with no items online, but I hope they have a decent amount of 1p content.
In other news: Mario is a video game character
It's designed to be a party game series, like it or not
I agree with what he's saying. Heck, my favorite entry into the series so far is Brawl, which is apparently the most hated one in the series because it's nothing like Melee in terms of gameplay. I got the game to play enjoy it at my own pace, not to compete with other players.
@Euler Agreed, more ways to play is better...
Although, if not for Smash Bros., the GameCube controller would've been retired a long time ago.
Edit I didn't know that you could also use the GameCube controller for other Switch games. Huh, ok then.
Games are for everyone, not just the elite who are able to spend hours a day figuring out new skills and perfecting old ones.
Smashbros is a game for the fans and to the fans. Nintendo saying thank you for playing.
the game is a system seller, and great to advertise for "some" third party companies. And a great chance to reintroduce old characters to newcomers/players and bring them back to life.
same as for kid icarus, was well revealed and everyone knows now who he is.
@frogopus Nope. That was a general direct with a Smash focus. We'll likely get a dedicated Smash Direct at some point between now and December to:
A: Reveal Single Player Content
B: Announce 1-3 additional fighters
C: Announce additional stages
D: Go over how the online will function
E: Go over how the collectibles in the game will function (are trophies back? Stickers? Masterpieces?)
F: Probably some stuff about the game we haven't even guessed yet.
There's still a massive list of unknowns about the game, enough to easily fill a half hour dedicated direct.
Good.
@Agent_Mike Yeah, it was a pretty big story last year. It’s missing a button and clickable analog sticks, so it works better for some games than for others. It only worked with Super Smash Bros. during the Wii U era though.
Oh good. I'm a bit nervous of how Ultimate's going to turn out, since it does seem to play a lot more like a 2D fighter (not sure how I came to that conclusion, but one look at the gameplay and I was like "eeuuugghhh") so I'm a bit on edge, honestly. But if Sakurai says he's still got the rest of us in mind, I'll take his word for it. I've loved every Smash since Melee (started with it) and have loved the series increasingly with every iteration that's been made. So there's no doubt in my mind that this game will live up to my expectations. Just... just change Ness' recovery, dammit...
I'm not a competitive player by any means but I'll Street Fighter over Smash any day.
I think the wording isn't being used correctly? From what I understood he just wants to avoid complex button inputs, not any advanced technique that might may the game more appealing to said competitive players.
Good, the hardcore fan base for smash is pathetic.
I love smash like anyone but give me a break sometimes people
That's alright with me. I think what's important is that he makes a game that everyone can enjoy, from people who play it more as a party game to people who play it competitively. Smash 4 found a really natural balance for this, having plenty of chatacters, fantastic stages, and items to make the party aspect more interesting while also having overall better (not perfect) balancing and features such as omaga forms to satisfy the competitive players. Smash 5 appears to be continuing this trend which makes me very happy.
I think he will focus on making the game fun, and through patches and updates, can appeal to the competitive crowd to be able to balance the game. Sakuri doesn't disown competitive players, but wants to bring in the regular crowd with the aapeal so that some of them can be competitive while still bringing competitive ayers in with the patches and updates on characters.
Look at overwatch and Fortnite, they made their games fun to play, then focused on the competitive side as well to help it be fun and fair.
A lot of complaints on the wii u version online feature at lunch. everyone was saying it sucks etc, not sure if it got patched but the wii u version was i hear so bad online i didn't even attempt it online. Hopefully the switch version will turn things around other than that game looks amazing.
I get what he means, but at the same time you can also have some really good tech that can further flesh out high-leveled play. Melee is still fantastic in casual play, it's just that people like the competitive part too, which slowly turned into a legendary part of fighting games.
Hopefully Ultimate is a great balance of Melee and Smash 4. Don't try to make Melee 2.0, just make a fun game first.
Sakurai has now made it canon to dismiss anything Melee extremists have to say! Love it, thank you Sakurai.
>"We don't care about the competitive scene."
>(shows off game with a competition)
w... what?!
This is a game where even casual players get competitive over it, and loads of fans love watching high level play even if they don't engage in it themselves. I'm not saying this game has to be as technical as melee, but it seems a little odd how critical Sakurai is being about this side of the fanbase. Especially that talk about it being all about the money. That's assuming a lot, especially toward the people who love watching the competition, and engage in local competitions themselves just for fun.
I agree with everything he said. And competitive gaming is cool, but when it becomes just about money... Then it gets pretty dumb.
@rushiosan To be honest? I assume I'll probably wrong(less disappointment than assuming I'll probably be right) but I feel the fact they focused so much of E3 on revealing so much about the character cast despite a whole six month being left before the game release might not be a coincidence. Especially with the lack of announcement about gamemodes.
It used to be that character reveals were the mainstay of the lead-up to the game's release after it's announcement, but revealing so much about the cast already I feel new character reveals will be more limited in favor of having held up meatier story or solo titles as THE surprise this time around.
They already gave the competitive community a large bone with all the talk about mechanics, techniques, cast and that tournament so I feel the next six month(a longer wait than the E3 display of SmashBros4 who released in October/November iirc) might actually be directed with a focus on the non-competitive community instead.
I wouldn't be surprised(though I feel it might be unlikely) if a new SUbspace Emissary-like mode or actual updated remake of the original was to be revealed.
So long as it's faster than sm4sh and is without the tripping of Brawl, I'm good.
People don't play fighting games competitively because they enjoy difficult inputs though.
And as Dragon Ball FighterZ shows clearly, you can easily have a game that appeals to casuals as well as competitive players.
This only changes when you do things to intentionally make a game not fun to play competitively, like tripping, not having enough hit or block stun, etc.
I've said this before, but it's a complete misconception that casual players enjoy slower games, it's the opposite, casuals usually like to aggressively run in and press buttons, and they want that to be effective, making a game slow and defensive gives the edge to competitive players who understand how to exploit that.
And if you're really concerned about appealing to casuals, you have to have an at least decent and well produced story mode and good single player content for people who don't plan to pour hours into multiplayer. And no, "unlocking characters", isn't good single player content.
@DarkKirby
I play Smash casually, but I play local multiplayer with friends when they come over, usually ordering pizza and grabbing some beers. Smash is a fantastic party game, and for players like me who just want to jump in and play an hour or two of stock matches with and without items, Smash 4 delivered better than any game in the series. More content, more choices, more fun. I'm not against having a proper singleplayer mode, but I have never in the franchise's history considered it a good singleplayer game.
It's probably true, the most successful fighting games are the most approachable and accessible. The thing about competitive players is that they can create an air of inaccessibility where new players are scared off because it seems like they can't have a fun time without leaarning all the mechanics and without an influx of new players a game is only going to shrink over time. The amount of players Street Fighter has managed to alienate between SFIV and SFV by focusing on competitive players is gigantic. and between 64 --> Melee --> Brawl --> 3DS/WiiU Smash has managed to ended up appealing to more players as time has passed in its current direction.
There's nothing to gain by actively targetting competitive players. They should just make the best game they can which can be enjoyed casually, the competitive players will be there anyway if the game is fun enough.
I'm down with his stance on this. My issues with a game like Brawl was never the things competitive players complained about.
Likewise my concernes about Ultimate aren't whether the competitive scene will favor it over Melee (they won't) but whether they will they will change up the gameplay aspect that I just personally don't like. They're off to a good start with making all final smashes instant-fires.
Sma5h story mode confirmed?
Competitive Smash is rather boring compared to normal Smash.
This is why nintendo is so ruddy clueless when it comes to matters outside their control, like what the actual customer does with the product.
I find it disconcerting that Sakurai chooses to scorn the most dedicated members of his audience, in a world where intentionally "silly" games like Splatoon are encouraged to be competitive. For the Melee community especially it's an absolute passion project; he's really missing out and seems not to understand the limits of his own game.
The reason a casual mode of play has appeal is that it can make the player feel like they are hardcore or on the path to becoming an elite. When you give an approachable game undefined boundaries it encourages the player to explore and push beyond what's possible in the newbie stage.
Alcohol, drugs, sex, guns and gambling are not allowed in Nintendo's world. Playing to win is seen as competitiveness which in turn can encourage gambling. Single player mode doesn't count.
Even in Mario +Rabbids kingdom battle, Mario has some sort of vaporising equipment that's sends the Rabbids back to their space ship, although I call it a gun. 😀. Mario and Peach are not an item even after all those times Mario has saved her.
But I'm not happy with the direction the last few Fire Emblem stories went.
Sakurai: (low-key disses Street Fighter)
Capcom: (removes Ryu from Smash Ultimate)
EVERYONE IS HERE!*
*mostly
The competitive scene is dull anyway, they're playing with half the game disabled or never used.
@Agent_Mike I'm no competitive player by any means and I appreciate Sakurai's philosophy here...but I still love me some 'Cube controllers for Smash. They aren't for everyone, but their unique design flows exceptionally well with Smash play.
The E3 video which went really in-depth into mechanics seemed to suggest otherwise.
@rushiosan Obviously we haven’t heard about a meaningful single player campaign yet because it’s part of the DLC that we’ll have to wait for months after release
People have already asking for single player experience and all that and claiming,ohh,he didn't announced it at all,so that means there's none.
Duh~,the game is so far away from release. This segment was only for the small particular part of the interview. So calm your Smash down.
In fact,even there aren't any single player,I'll be fine with it. I have spent at least a thousand hours of Smash from WiiU. I loved it. But if Nintendo is making a single player,I would love that too.
Just don't tweet Sakurai way too much. The guy's health is concerning. Let him do what he gotta do.
Peace.
I can handle remembering 6, maybe 7, commands maximum in any game. Move, jump, fire, run, and that leaves 2 or 3 for other things. Make them count!
He has a point for sure!
Wait fun? What's wrong with him?! This is serious business and all about making money at tournaments. Games aren't supposed to be fun! Lol. If you didn't notice that was sarcasm. 😊
I've never seen one casual player that said, "This is too technical. I'm quitting this game." I'm pretty sure the casual players left once Brawl came out... and then left Brawl when Smash 4 came out... and will leave Smash 4 when Ultimate comes out. The casual crowd will play whatever the latest Smash game is.
Good to hear.
@Banjos_Backpack
If done right it can be fun and challenging. Metroid, Castlevania and Kid Icarus have done it. The Mega Man Zero series turned it into an aggravatingly awesome gimmick for speed runners and perfectionists.
Other times, I agree with you. It can just plain screw a game over.
I'm interested in what the Level Maker is going to look like this time around.
"A game is a game is a game."
It's not about choosing one or the other. The most successful games balance between a smart esports platform while remaining approachable to casuals. Discount the competitive scene all you want, but there's no question it injects your game with increased exposure, relevance, and money.
It's not the game that is the problem, it's the players.
In Smash 4 all glory players picked Cloud, rolled and limit charge. It's the saddest online community on Earth.
I don't care how competitive the game is or isn't, just please don't leave characters broken and s-tier. Even if you play "For Fun" there is always some try-hard who's gonna come out up-airing, rolling, and limit charging every time. Game doesn't even have to be THAT balanced, but characters like Fox in Melee, Meta Knight/Snake in Brawl, and Cloud/Bayo in Smash4 just ruin the fun. I don't care how many people whine and cry their s-tier got nerfed. I just don't want more of the same "you beat me with Smash ball when I'm using my secondary? Out comes Try-Hard Cloud to teach you a lesson! You're playing for fun? Too bad, my internet "girlfriend" just broke up with me!!!!!1"
Riiiiight... that's why the damage % has a decimal point and stage hazards can be turned off, making more stages legal in tournaments...
@rushiosan it's too early for judgment. We might get a story mode if some kind.
@icerzerocool The game already has 68 confirmed characters and 84 confirmed stages, so it's packed with enough content already to justify a $60 purchase. That said, I'd totally pay $20 for a Story Mode DLC. Worked great for Splatoon 2!
@SonataAndante @link3710 nbn Yeah anyone can pick up and play a broken game? Sure.......... Melee is legit broken
That Nintendo philosophy is why I will always be a Nintendo fan.
Im sorry but he is completly clueless about what is competitive play.
And I'm tired of this old [removed] that Melee is too difficult for people. I mean really ? Melee is a game too difficult ?! 14 years old me never had any problem playing melee and enjoying it. I wasn't a pro player, I wasn't a die hard try harder, I was just a regular kid playing a game and trying to beat the other guy. And I loved it because it was fast, fluid, responsive, and felt really good playing it because of that.
In the end that's what people like from Melee. Not the advanced techniques, Not the L-cancel, wave dash or [removed] like this. All of thoses are the icing on the cake that allow real pro player to reach new heigh of play and set them appart. What most regular melee player liked in melee is that the game feels right. It doesn't feel slow and boring like Brawl, It doesn't feel slippery and campy like smash 4. It feels as it should. Character have momentum, both on the floor and in the air, attacks have weight and impact. Low impact attacks can be string together while heavy attack really pack a punch. Every thing flows naturally in Melee because everything is physics based, whereas in current titles everything is "designed" to act a certain way and because of that it doesn't act naturally in most case and thus make the game feel wrong.
While I love Sakurai for the amount of care he puts into his games I really feel like he is not the one that should be responsible for the game design / balance, just make him design content and features.
I mean seriously, the fact that in the demo Bayonneta is still able to 0-KO someone like in Smash4 just prove how out of touch he is with the competitive aspect of his games.
@Kokusho Modern games are less responsive and less fluid because they're centered around being online. And slower gameplay help to hide the lag. It's something that touched fighting games, sports games, racing games. It's not Sakurai fault if the whole industry has shifted.
@bitleman
That's an interesting point I've never though of, and I'm sure it applies in a lot of case.
However I'm pretty sure that's not what dictates Sakurai design decisions, especially when you think about it. "Nintendo designing around online play" Yeah sure !
You just need to see how laggy Smash 4 is online to realise they don't care about quality of play in online mode.
I mean, I'm glad Nintendo wants it to be fun. However after college I haven't had any fun with Smash, because everyone wants to play it like a "standard" fighting game. Stripping the more goofy and fun aspects that made it stand out.
@SethNintendo
Exploit, or a great movement option for a fighting game?
@shaneoh
Or just disabling more random elements of the game for a better competitive experience. At least there's an option to turn items and stage hazards off. I enjoy both aspects of Smash and that's why it's become my favourite game series of all time.
@Luffymcduck
As I said; Dull.
Funny that he still feels this way, yet 100% of Smash at E3 was focused on the competitive player....even his own presentation....
@SethNintendo but, but, but, but, but it takes sill to learn to snake properly, and the game allows it, and you have to put effort in to learn about it, and everyone can do it so it's totally fair! </sarc
There's a disconnect here between what Sakurai is discussing and what many people here think he's discussing. (Unsurprising, really; the disparaging commments towards the competitive Smash community make it clear a few people have no idea what they're talking about.) Pro Smash players don't want complex inputs. They want a faster game, reduced landing lag, and the ability to play stages without hazards. Smash Ultimate is delivering those things.
The only people who want complex inputs are those who don't believe Smash can even be a serious fighter without being more like Street Fighter. I'm glad Sakurai isn't catering to them.
@Lazygamer17 Why am I taggeed in that? I said nothing about Melee, or how Smash plays for that matter.
@frogopus Whoops, and the joke goes right over my head.
@Kokusho Mind your language!
What could possibly be "dull" about high level players going about their craft in the most skilled and technical way possible? That's like saying the Olympics are boring unless all the competitors have their shoelaces tied together, and the audience is permitted to throw out water balloons. I detect a fair amount of ignorance in some comments; that poor man's version of the game should definitely should be passed over by Sakurai in favor of a skill rewarding system.
The idea that fun is synonymous with idiocy and you need bombs and falling items to have an even playing field shows a marked lack of appreciation for the hardcore < — > beginner enjoyment gap that is being bridged. You shouldn't have to make either crowd suffer for a truly inclusive experience of all players.
No longer interested in Melee games after I turn 18. Fighting game I prefer Beat em' up like kenka-banchou or Yakuza. Back then it was Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat for me.
Why do i get a bad feeling if subspace is annouced it be dlc. Other than that this smash look awesome. I heard the Wii u online sucked at launch not sure if it got patched though. Really looking forward to this regardless of if online sucks or not (i hope it don't lol).
@OptometristLime Professional sports is mainly about corporate sponsorship, which isn’t comparable to what Nintendo does (that is, to sell games that are fun and enjoyable directly to the consumer). But since you brought it up, there is an argument that spectator sports are gradually becoming more and more boring (notably reflected by the NFL’s low ratings). This is partially because optimizing your team’s stats and entertaining your audience do not always align.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-downside-of-baseballs-data-revolutionlong-games-less-action-1507043924
It’s ignorant to say that games with elements of chance (Poker, Backgammon, Bridge, Mario Kart, and Super Smash Bros. matches that are not Fox-only/items off/Final Destination) do not reward skill. I don’t think it’s just a matter of luck that John Numbers made it to the finals two years in a row at the Nintendo World Championships (rather, it’s because he is actually good at Nintendo games).
Sakurai’s team does not possess a magic wand that allows them to instantly make the perfect game that makes everyone happy. Unfortunately they face time, monetary, and human constraints. This means trade offs are necessary. If one part of the game gets more attention, it increases costs or shifts resources away from another part of the game. Suppose the choice is to use Brawl’s physics engine (complete with the floaty physics and random tripping that professional players hate so much), or to develop a new physics engine from scratch (with close input from the top professional players - they’re a very particular bunch) but have five fewer characters and no adventure mode. I think 99% of Smash fans would pick the one with more characters. So it becomes a matter of pleasing the general public versus a tiny but very vocal special interest group.
As a side note, I don’t really get why non-competitive Smash players are considered “casual”. They generally fit all of the standard characteristics of core/hardcore gamers (possess a dedicated device for playing video games, are predominantly males under 35, and play more hours per week than recommended by the World Health Organization). The main issue seems to be that they’re more likely to have jobs, relationships, schooling, other hobbies, and time to shave their necks.
On a sidenote: I really hope they haven't ditched all the single-player content. Because I fear that's exactly what will happen: No classic mode, no all-star mode, no missions, no challenges, no trophy's, etc.
I don't understand these comments, why annoyingly divide smash's fanbase with "casual" and "competitive"??? So do these "casual players" not enjoy beating their friends? And do these "competitive players" the game even when they aren't having fun? Let us just hope the game is as enjoyable as possible in as many ways possible. And let us rejoice in the fact that smash can continue on because so many of us love the game regardless if we have items switched on or off.
@link3710 oops sorry😅
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