Just recently we reported on a debate currently raging in the Spanish Super Smash Bros. community over potentially banning Bayonetta from tournaments. A top player in the country, Greward, discussed the topic and shared a belief that a ban of the DLC character seemed likely, albeit not yet finalised.
It was prompting a heated debate on both sides, and the official Twitter account for the country's Smash community has stated that it's not yet formalised, but it intends to announce a decision soon.
It's a hot topic over on the series' subreddit, in any case, and the conversation is dominating the boards. A thread that's prompted a lengthy conversation is now focused on the bullying of some of those using the character. A user called 'saddsmasher' posted the following.
I don't think it's Bayonetta that's toxic. I think the community is becoming toxic but yes, Bayonetta is the reason. Everytime my match starts some guys behind me start shouting at me whenever I do witchtime or combo somebody. Nobody ever cheers for me and people call me "the nobody that buyed his skills for 5.99". This is really saddening for me, I don't play Bayonetta because she is OP. I voted for her at the ballot and I was really excited to play her but now I regret it because of the community. I might go back to Sheik this week at my local tournament, this is not a joke, it really hurts me emotionally whenever I play Bayo at the tournament. I'm just done pretending to not care about all the haters. I came to my local place to have fun and find some friends. It was fun for me to play her but seems like nobody has fun fighting me, there is only one guy at our local who really enjoys fighting my Bayonetta because he finds it really challenging and the top5 players of my place are totally respectable towards her [sic].
There are plenty of replies on the topic, some once again debating the merits of the character. Others do discuss the bullying aspect, relaying experiences from their own local events - in some cases it's from using other characters that aren't universally popular, with taunts and insults used when playing. Naturally it is down to individual tournaments and their organisers to manage this, some of whom will undoubtedly be tough on these issues, while groups and communities all have their own dynamics. It's always disappointing, however, to read of players that feel excluded and alienated from their local tournaments.
Gonzalo Barrios (aka ZeRo) has also been pitching in a little - on Bayonetta as a character - via Twitter. His attitude is that players and the broader community should focus on how to beat the fighter rather than consider bans.
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/717484716434317312
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/717486818078359554
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/717487149541625856
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/717487285642653696
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/717487624966053889
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/717487983813914626
https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/717488608383471617
At present the debate over the role of Bayonetta in the competitive Smash Bros. scene is ongoing, though the support for banning the character is far from overwhelming. Even if the Spanish community decides to exclude the fighter, that wouldn't necessarily mean that the international scene would follow suit.
In the meantime, there's still a chance that the character will be adjusted in a game update; time will tell on Bayonetta's fate in competitive Smash Bros.
[source reddit.com]
Comments 64
Are there other fighting games that have banned the use of officially available characters? Sounds like this is just a bunch of babies and the kind that giving gaming a bad rap.
wish there was an unheart button.
I have the perfect tip to play against someone playing as Bayonetta:
1) Git Gud.
@Mr_Zurkon I believe BlazBlue did the same thing with one character that ended up being absurd.
Meta Knight in Brawl also got banned at some point.
I remember the days of fighting games, where instead of saying a character is overpowered, and bullying a player into not selecting them, players would instead develop strategies on how to take that character down.
Just ban her until a nerfing patch comes and then include her again, not a big deal.
Bayonetta could beat you from zero if you make a mistake. But the same happened with Cloud and Sheik. Smash community has a lot of bullies.
How come I'm always terrible when using the "OP banned" characters.... They make it sound like there's no skill involved
Marvel vs Capcom 2's community didn't ban Sentinel, why should Smash Bros. ban Bayonetta?
If Bayonetta gets banned Cloud should be thrown on there too. Might not be as OP as Bayonetta but comes close. That being said smash players are notoriously babies when it comes to tournaments. If you suck at fighting a certain character then get gud, it's not the players fault who enjoys that character.
Why why KDDD can't be OP, I want him buffed right now! or else!
I'm not really into the competitive gaming scene, but apparently bullying is increasingly a problem in the SSB community. As the number of people involved grows, I guess the number of jerks grows with it. It's very unfortunate, because Nintendo communities are usually pretty friendly.
So, yeah. My new list of words I can no longer abide thanks to people on the internet:
1) "Problematic"
2) "Toxic"
3) "Cancer" (as in: "[So and so] is literally cancer," "this game is cancer," etc.)
4) "Literally" (as in: [see first example posted above])
Bayoneta is definitely OP she's even more ridiculous than pre patch Diddy Kong.
However, banning Bayoneta won't fix anything and is unfair to those who use her as main. Fight strategically and wait for a patch where Bayo finally gets nerfed.
@TrueWiiMaster it's not just Smash tho. Fighting games in general have lots of "toxic" players in their communities.
This is a little excessive. Not to trivialize the issue, but seriously, get good. You can't expect to fight a new character with the same moves you're used to using and for it to work every time.
@CharlieSmile I just see this as another manifestation of the same social evolution that has led to things like "safe spaces" and "free speech zones." People would rather whine about how victimized they are and try to ban and censor the things that challenge them or make them uncomfortable rather than confront these things head-on.
@Mr_Zurkon i believe Akuma was banned in one iteration of Street Fighter.
Seems the movement stalled
This reminds me of the days when Little Mac was sooooooo broken and OP. Some people snapped at me, including friends of mine, but Back then, I didn't play as Little Mac because of that, I played as him because I really wanted him to be playable, and I finally got that wish granted. Same thing applies with Bayonetta, I voted for her, and kept spa-I mean, kept repeating in the live chats here, that Bayonetta should be DLC with a Jeanne alt, that's why I like playing as her, I'm not even the best At her yet, but whatever, I'm playing as someone who I really wanted in the end.....YEE!
I do hate the stigma that if a character is too good, it'll become a sin to play as them. Only because once the stigma is there, it's hard to erase later. And banning can become a slippery slope.
The bigger concern, though, is that if a character is too good, people are either gonna quit playing in tournies or bracket diversity will shrink down to just Bayo and the few characters who even remotely have a chance of beating her. And not only is that disheartening towards the majority who want to play as their favorite characters, it can get become boring to watch and take part in.
"Git Gud" goes both ways, too. If you're clearly so skilled, then you shouldn't have a problem playing as the other 40+ characters, right?
And ironically, saying "Wait for the patch" is an admission that the characrer is so OP, it requires official intervention to knock them down a peg. Not only that, what if the patch never comes?
Still seems early for a ban. I expect she'll be nerfed in a a patch, anyway.
If the pro players, the actual experts of the game, can't even agree if the character should be banned, then she shouldn't be banned.
Furthermore (and this is just my opinion), if you ban one DLC character for a tournament, you should probably ban them all.
@TrueWiiMaster Nintendo's communities are just as bad as any other one. They are definitely not the most friendly.
If someone is picking on someone for a character they play as in a video game, they need to possibly take a long look in the mirror and rethink their life. Grow up.
Also, it wouldn't hurt to have thicker skin. People will pick on you for much worse.
If she's that overpowered why is it only Spain that seems to be particularly bothered by this?
@Yalaa
As I understand it (I only saw one video about the topic), SSB's community used to be much friendlier, and has gotten much more toxic in recent times.
@Xaessya
Not in my experience. I don't delve deep into all of the communities, but my experience in games Animal Crossing, Pokemon, Mario Maker, and Splatoon (for example) have been overwhelmingly positive. It's rare to see bullying in those communities, and when it does appear, it tends to get shut down.
@Ralizah Ugh, right? "Literally cancer." is the most absurd statement, and it's just getting thrown around by 7 year olds and big players alike.
What's funny is that some of these whiny man-babies crying for Bayonetta to be banned are likely the same people who actually think custom moves have a place in the competitive scene. These complainers don't think in terms of how their actions improve the competitive Smash community. They just want the game to be played their way.
I do believe that Bayonetta is slightly over-powered when compared to the rest of the cast. But I think the negative consequences of Bayonetta are mostly felt in the casual side of Smash. People who play For Glory will likely lose to 50 Bayonettas in 2 hours and get annoyed. I know I'm that way. For the record, I'm about as casual as Smash players get.
But I believe that if someone wants to really, seriously join the competitive scene, they need to learn how to beat an average-skilled Bayonetta. People have to put in the work to get results. ZeRo certainly puts in the work, and even though based on his Twitter in the past few weeks I think he's an arrogant jerk, he is demonstrating how serious Smash players should tackle these issues.
That 'sadsmasher' guy needs to fix his local scene (or maybe just get a thick skin xD), not ban the character cause it makes him unpopular xD SPEAKING AS PART OF THE SCOTTISH SMASH SCENE Bayonetta is seen as top tier here, but after a few weeks of everyone playing her, no one here is genuinely hating on bayo players! Before Corrin's counter got nerfed, I received so much crap for maining her, even though I didn't once abuse the counter xD But it was all in good humour, and we all got bored of that joke before her counter was even nerfed.
Bunch of sissies, insults and taunts are bread and butter of any competitive activity, more so if it involves fighting even if it's virtual.
Now banning a character because it gives unfair advantage? That's ok.
@SheldonRandoms Little Mac was never broken from a competitive standpoint; however, he does have an unfair advantage on FD/in For Glory. In general, though, he's easily beatable.
Comparing Little Mac to Bayonetta is like comparing a bike to a Harley Davidson.
@Morph Because there's enough people arguing that she's not that broken elsewhere. Spain's just the first to have made an official statement on the matter.
@Mr_Zurkon BlazBlue banned Kokonoe and Akuma is considered broken enough in SFII that nobody used him (thus he's soft-banned, technically).
In generally, I find the mocking of the Smash competitive community here disheartening. The worst people are always the loudest; try to look beyond.
The most important things in life are learned in Kindergarten: play nice, peeps. Throwing ad hominem insults at someone else because of your own insecurities or issues in a game doesn't solve anything. Sigh.
Personally, I hate Bayonetta. She's awful to play against, and boring to watch. I do believe she is broken, as she is far more powerful than most of the characters on the roster. However, I have to agree... It's a little too early for a ban. If her dominance keeps up, sure. But the scene needs time to wait and see before we automatically put her down.
This is gaming community nowadays. Just like that.
I can't believe there is a subset of people who did what I think couldn't happen: make Super Smash Bros. not fun to play.
@EverythingAmiibo Yeah, it annoys me to no end. I could spend an hour talking about all the things that are wrong with describing anything other than actual cancer as "literally cancer."
ayy lmao
do people really suck so bad that they have to ban a character just because it hurt their feelings
honestly, suck it up and, for lack of a better term, git gud.
The bullying comments remind me of that Smash 4 tournament that ended with a group saying "Good we can get to Melee now".
I guess this just shows how important balancing characters is when it comes to taking these games seriously.
@KLZ No, it's a very big deal, because we don't know if the last one they did was the final one, nor when the next one is coming if it wasn't.
There's no sense in banning her.
Let the people play.
@Mr_Zurkon
Super Street Fighter II Turbo: Akuma is banned, Old Sagat is "soft-banned"
Marvel vs. Capcom 3: Shuma-Gorath and Jill Valentine are banned due to no longer being available, making new players unable to train against them
And I know there's others. There's definitely precedent.
As for the debate, I think we should wait it out a little. (Also, ZeRo trying to HELP the community instead of jumping on the chance to stagnate it? Never thought I'd see the day.)
As infantile as it is to blame your unhappiness with a game's balance on people playing a character that you view is a top tier, it's no more immature to expect people to support or cheer for you if you happen to have chosen to play a character that is top tier.
If you have a problem with a game's balance, you have a problem with the developers who implemented that balance, not the players who are maximizing their potential of winning within the limitations of the game.
If you play a character that's viewed as top tier, regardless of your reason for playing that character, it is equally as unreasonable to expect people to support or cheer for you for making that decision. People don't root for you for playing top tier in fighters, that's how it has always been, and likely how it will always be. People love rooting for an underdog, if having support for your character choice is so important to you, play a low tier character.
Gotta love the Smash community. If its not one thing, it's another. For a casual player like myself, you never really hear anything positive from the scene. It's only ever "nerf this!" or "patch that!" and it's just plain exhausting. They're basically making it difficult for new players to join the scene simply because from the outside looking in, it's just not a pretty sight.
That being said, all this effort to remove Bayonetta because she's considered a game breaker? Only in the right hands. As far as I can recall, Zero Suit Samus and Rosalina were way worse in their early days, and you didn't even really need to understand them on a fundamental level to be a threat. Bayonetta can only take average-level people so far on her own.
I get that she has a few options for 0-Death'ing people, but if you trawl youtube for a couple of hours, you'll find that it's the same for a lot of characters. Maybe I really am ignorant when it comes to the deeper levels of Smash and what's really going on, but from what I can see, some are just blowing this way out of proportion.
As a Samus main, I've found that Bayonetta actually isn't that bad of an opponent. When the DLC came out I actually struggled a lot with Corrin matchups but I've only lost to a Bayo (for glory 1v1) like 5 times. Don't know if that's because Samus is a good counter pick or maybe I just haven't played any good Bayos. Anyway I don't see a problem with people using her.
I said this when the Diddy problems happened and I feel now's a good time to say it again as it still doesn't make sense to me:
Pikachu is the best in 64, people complain that he's broken, not fun to play against, calling for bans etc.
MK is the best in Brawl, people complain that he's broken not fun to play against calling for bans etc.
Bayonetta is supposedly (hasn't been out long enough to agree) the best in Smash 4, people complain that she's broken not fun to play against calling for bans etc.
Fox is the best in Melee, people seem to be fine with that.
Is it really that hard to learn 1 matchup in every game but Melee? sheesh and a lot of the biggest complainers of Bayo and the others were Melee players as well.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/593/910/015.jpg
Seems appropriate.
@DatFunkySmell
Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... I wonder what word fits that description... hmmm
Well, the problem is on how the mechanics of the game are handled.
It would be easier to Smash DI out of Bayos Up B if the developers didn't decided to tone down SDI for the game.
Thing is, bayonetta is a low risk, extremely high reward character, which forces the opponent to play like it was in brawl. Not approaching, play super defensively, not playing the combo game due to witch time... which in turns makes the game boring to watch and play.
I personally don't mind playing against bayo, and it feels great destroying noobs who spam witch time and whatnot :>
But it's understandable where is this coming from. Not all people like how to fight bayo, due to the extreme passiveness you must employ if you want your best chance to win.
Though I'm sure they will balance her out in the end.
Competitive gaming sure knows how to suck the fun out of gaming. Seriously, this is why I don't bother being a tournament level player, the bullying and how they treat each other isn't worth it. If they feel Bayonetta is overpowered, why don't they just play as her? Because they want to be a character they enjoy more? So they expect the other person to not play the character they enjoy?
I love how people act like the DLC characters are "pay to win" when on the last tier list, Ryu was the highest ranked DLC character at 4th place, Cloud was at 12th, and the rest of the DLC cast that were out at the time(Roy, Mewtwo, and Lucas) were all fighting over middle tier spots.
Even if Bayonetta is a top-tier character, so what? Just because she's DLC does not mean she's "Pay to Win"
I have news for all the people who keep spewing this nonsense. You spent 59.99 for a roster that includes Shiek, ZSS, Mario, and other top-tier characters that are part of the base roster. The entire game is "Pay to Win" because its a fighting game that hopefully, people bought because they want to both win and improve their skills, regardless of if they play with friends, online, or at serious tournaments.
Let the Bayonetta players have their peace and stop acting like people spent $4.99 for an instant win character. Do people act like jerks when I see a Shiek play? Or a ZSS? Or even Diddy at the height of insane antics?
Or how about Fox in Melee? I don't see people hating on him.
Every fighting game has a tier list and top-tier characters. The only difference between Bayonetta, Cloud, and Ryu compared to the rest of the top-tier characters is that those three are not part of the core game.
Not every one that plays Bayonetta uses her because she's top tier. Many people likely play as her because they loved her game and the character herself.
Just like many Cloud players use him because they enjoyed Final Fantasy VII, or myself when I play as Lucina.
I wish the competitive community would be more mature about this. What is it guys? Are you all sour about Shiek being patched? Or that your darlings like King K. Rool and Ridley did not make the roster and Bayonetta won the most votes? Or you suddenly have to deal with a new character that uses some new mechanics that you aren't used to dealing with yet?
I can't believe its all because its over how good she is, especially since she did not even win Pound 2016.
Guess which DLC character did win? it was a Mewtwo. Quick, lets ban him since people may not know how to deal with his gameplay!
Unbelievable.....
Tbh I saw Corrin as a bigger problem then bayonetta, I take my time fighting her :/. Didn't they nerf the dlc characters already?
And thus the saga of the complete banfest that is the Smash competitive scene continues.
@TrueWiiMaster It mostly hits the competitive scenes, Smash Bros and Pokemon having bad ones too @_@
It's like you can hear the cries of a room full of infants in the distance while reading through this.
Git Gud and STFU. Jesus.
@CrazedCavalier I was talking about Little Mac during the early days of when SM4SH first came out, many thought he was OP & Broken, now, he's the center of side-B jokes.......but then he KNOCKS YOU OUUUUTTTTTTTT with a K.O. Punch. Also it might've been different for competitive, but I was referring to just playing the game with pals of mine, a.k.a for fun I suppose
@Zup I'm a Lucina main, and its much the same way. Corrin and Cloud are much harder matchups for me then Bayonetta is.
I have lost numerous matchups to Cloud and Corrin, and it seems like those two are very hard for Lucina to fight. Cloud's movement speed, the speed of his attacks, and the Limit Break make it hard for Lucina to keep up.
As for Corrin, he has better range, a better counter, a sweet-spot like Marth, and can shutdown any real attempts at offense that Lucina may attempt.
Those two matchups got so bad, I started playing as Link when I run into Cloud or Corrin players online.
Bayonetta? She's one of the easier fights that I tend to have on For Glory 1 on 1. Her combos? Lucina can normally shut those down with counter. Her Smash Attacks? Unless Lucina is either caught in witch time or misjudges her spacing, she can either dodge them or counter them. Shield Breaker and Dancing Blade can make Bayo's life hard.
As for Witch Time? To use an example, most people who use Witch Time online are like the Running Back that breaks for a long run only to fumble the football 1-yard from the end zone.
It is amazing how many times Bayo players have me dead to rights with Witch Time, and then fail to cash in. One managed to catch me in my F-Smash when I was over 100%. Not only did she mess up by using a weaker attack, the way I was knocked away protected me from any reall follow-ups. Needless to say, I won that match.
I'm not saying any of this in the context of tournaments, but in the context of online For Glory, Bayonetta is the character I tend to have the least problems with. I'm sure its the players using her, but I can beat her with Ganondorf of all characters.
The only thing i have a problem with is the 0-Death combo. They shouldnt make those combos connect so easily if anything straight out the gate. People wanted her in smash and payed for her ! Dont ban her from anything. A straight patch like everyone else in the game has gotten would suffice !
Don't know why everyone is getting so pissed. Something is unbalanced, it gets banned. To even question or act like this is outrageous is hilarious. In pretty much every competitive game, if something is wayyyyy unbalanced like Bayo in this case, it gets banned until it's fixed. Back in December, Valve released a new gun in CS:GO called the R8 Revolver and it was so unbalanced and overpowered that ESEA and CEVO were going to ban them as it disrupted the very core gameplay of Counter Strike. It happens, and I have no clue why people get mad or insult the competitive scene over it. Smash Competitive Scene: Misunderstood by people who will never take the time to understand them.
@SheldonRandoms True, but the game had just came out. I too thought Little Mac was OP, then I discovered his weaknesses. Bayonetta really doesnt have any weaknesses, she can kill you at 0% for Petes sake. I hope someone finds the Bayo counter soon, because many people might quit from the competitive scene if this goes too far.
@Ralizah
First of all, I'M one of those social justice advocates you dislike. Hi!
Glad to see we're off to a great start.
Secondly, not comparable. False equivalence.
Discussing the gameplay mechanics of a fighting game is NOT, in any way, comparable to defending the concept of social equity.
Its heartbreaking seeing people here argue things like "git gud" or "wow people can complain" when these people dont have a deeper understanding of Smash. I main Ganondorf, and once Bayo gets the first hit on you, its over. Done. You literally can't do anything at all. DI and Smash DI won't work if your opponent reads you. It sucks the fun out of the game. Its like Pre Patch Luigi, where one grab combo could have racked up 80% in seconds. I play games to have fun, I like figuring out my opponent and reading their moves. Now with the release of Bayo, I cant even make ONE mistake or I am punished greatly for it. Maybe I am overreacting, but I am kinda for and against the ban at the same time. If no further patches come out and Bayo is confirmed to be what people hype her out to be, bring on the ban. I might even main Bayo, so that when I go to tournaments and the other person picks her we can have a ditto match that way I can AT LEAST can stand a chance. Oh well.
I know nothing about the Smash 4 competitive scene basically at all but I do know a little about the FGC so I'm just going to say this, Bayonetta needs a second chance. Yes, she has hilariously broken zero to deaths that from what I heard you can't even DI out of and she is a low risk and incredibly high reward character, but here is a few simple questions. Remember when Sheik was considered top tier in Melee and some even wanted to ban her also? remember when Falco wasn't top tier and was an "upper" tier character? Hell, remember when people didn't think Puff was that good in Melee? Things change in the meta game people. People find new strategies, patches can come at any point now, game changing exploits can be discovered, ect. There is no reason to ban Bayonetta this early when she only been out for 3 months. Learn to adapt, find her weaknesses, or hell instead complaining use this time to get better at the game. I'm not telling you to really git gud against a character that is basically just a win button, but don't out right ban her.
Also, do the people who always come to the comment section only to say how stupid competitive Smash is even though you have no understanding of what competitive Smash is at all, please just leave. All you're doing is making yourself look like a complete fool.
Want some advice about playing as Bayonetta..... DON'T!
I appreciate Nintendo's work for SSB4 and I main Lucario! Bayonetta is beatable and every good story needs a witch! ban is not necessary
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