While many of us play and enjoy Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, the competitive scene naturally takes the game to another level. With the top players mastering movesets and identifying weakness right down to individual frames, it's continuing to grow both as a competitive scene and as a popular spectator sport online.
It's also the top players that can highlight potential issues in the character roster, notably if some fighters are over-powered. That seems to be happening with Bayonetta, with the competitive scene in Spain running a vote that looks to have banned the character from tournaments.
It all stems from a perception in Spain that the character is over-powered and 'broken', with one of the country's top players (Greward) posting the following on Reddit.
In Spain there's just 3 actual Bayonetta mains as of now (over 400 people!), and two of them do agree with the ban. We had more bayonetta players (mostly as secondaries) but they dropped her because they felt it was unfair. If bayonetta is banned, they'll probably go back to their old mains. However, since recent tournaments a lot of people are starting to pick her and we're seeing MK 2.0 case, so banning her before everyone mains her is in our opinion the best option.
When just ~7% of votes are against actually banning her (rest is either yes or I dunno) she is toxic. If left allowed, a lot of people would drop out of the tournaments, scene and the game, and thus it's not worth it to have her allowed. This is what I mean as toxic.
Banning bayonetta won't be very detrimental to our community, at worst there is only one or two players who would stop attending. It might be detrimental for competing outside of our country, but that's it.
Most TO agree with the ban and will actually ban her in their own tournaments. However, at the end of the day, each TO will set up rules for his own tournament, so it's not impossible to have more tournaments with Bayonetta allowed, although the tournament might have low attendance.
No other character is banned in Spain or has ever been in the history of Smash. We do restrict Miis to guest, but with any moveset. We did ban Kokonoe on release in BlazBlue though, but that's not smash.
As far as tournament results, Bayo players have made notable upsets (top40ish player beating top10, or top6 destroying everyone), but as she's not played by many people she's not dominating all results.
The ban seems to have been made 'official', but as mentioned above individual tournament organisers in Spain may not apply it. Some certainly agree with the move, too, with user Volnutt_Trigger giving a lengthy breakdown.
She's fundamentally a pretty unfair character. Her weakness should be her neutral due to her bad frame data and run/air speed. in practice this just doesn't happen.
Having a high risk gameplan is by no means unique and that's what Bayo seems like looking at her numbers. In practice this is not what happens. Her bad frame data and movement SHOULD make her approach options bad and her OOS similarly bad.
In practice jump cancel Witch Twist completely removes the problems she should have OOS. On top of this her Downward After Burner Kick is relatively safe on shield (due to the bounce) and has a landing hitbox making it relatively hard to punish while having the potential to lead to a zero-death. Witch twist leads to similar setups.
On top of this Witch time turns every attack thrown at her into a serious Commitment. Having a tilt, jab or spacing move countered isn't a big deal. It simply leads to a small amount of damage and potentially baiting it out next time.Witch Time in contrast does 28% damage on the EASY punish. Yes Witch time stales heavily and yes it IS punishable. But the risk/reward is so much higher for Bayo it doesn't matter.
This leaves us with a character that both racks damage and kills early while being safe in neutral as she never has to do anything unsafe to be rewarded. While simultaneously it's extremely hard to force her into a situation in which she HAS to do anything that won't go in her favor.
Yes there's characters that win in theory. But those character have to grind out damage against her as safely as possible in such a prolonged fashion against a character that will kill them the moment they make a mistake, the situation is so incredibly punishing of mistakes it makes the counters frankly pretty unrealistic in practice. Even in cases of success it's essentially just one character running scared of the other for 6 minute stretches hoping to god they don't misspace a move for fear of being 0-deathed.
There are plenty that also disagree with the ban, however, disputing claims that the character is unfair and pointing out that she's been available for two months already. Though Greward goes on to say that some organisers in Japan are also 'pro-ban', a number are arguing that this is a bad move. The following was posted by t1mmy_ssb:
According to competitive game philosophy, the game is to be played as is with any character banned only when it is warranted. If the character breaks the game, or at the least dominates the metagame, then bans can be discussed.
Bayonetta has not been shown to make the game unplayable (she is not 'broken').
3 Bayonetta mains out of 400+ players is not what I would consider a dominating number.
Saying "a lot of people are starting to pick her" is not the same case as Meta Knight (Brawl). Banning a character before it gets to that level is not how competitive philosophy works - a character has to be proven bannable and then becomes banned. Banning a character to prevent it from meeting ban-criteria is contradictory.
The only thing I can see happening is that Spain is learning to deal with a Top Tier character. The knee-jerk reaction of a scrub would be to ban the character. Pro players develop counter strategies, utilize counterpicks, and/or play that character in order to win and progress the meta game.
If all the players come together and agree, they can ban anything they want, whether or not it's warranted. If it's good for the community then there's not much more that needs to be said. The best thing for a community, however, is to have T.O.s taking rational steps with a foundation of logical reason.
I feel like another patch will be coming in about a month or so, and that patch will likely 'nerf' Bayonetta in some capacity. I would highly advise the Spanish community to wait until that time, if only to gather some form of data to support any desired bans. Because without supportive data any claims of a ban will only be seen as unwarranted from the world at large.
The debate is also raging on Smashboards, and there doesn't appear to be a unanimous consensus, lengthening the odds of any kind of global ban. With major events still to come, however, the policies on Bayonetta could be interesting to follow.
What do you think of Bayonetta in Smash Bros.? Overpowered and worthy of banning, or just another strong character to adjust to and counter? Let us know.
Ironic, considering she was the most voted character in Europe.
If Bayonetta's so good how come I keep getting beaten when playing as her?
Funny to see this above an article about the character I would have loved to see in Smash ober Bayonetta (honestly I'd prefer almost anyone over her though)
Bayonetta, the new meta (knight)
So if you main Bayonetta, people will call you the dodo for playing as a character that you like to play
Competitive Smash is such a joke
So she is being banned to keep the top players happy? "Causing an upset" is a poor reason. If a top 40 player defeats a top 10 player, why is it such a big deal? That comment makes it sound like something like that never happens.
Bayonetta: Still turning heads in 2016.
I don't have a problem since I'm not into competitive scenes. If they deemed her OP, then let them decide how they run their tournament.
Who cares what they say as long as you're not cheating or using a glitch.
@MajonSoul I take offense to that.
@MajonSoul I take offense to that.
@4sterr Hit that reply button underneath a comment and you won't have to worry about not getting someone's name right, like you did right now...
Spain... the new home of misogyny in games... ???
I'm happy that I got to be right there when that 23 second grand final match happened. Not only was it hilarious and outrageous, but also the icing on the cake for something that's really needed and that will - I believe - have repercussions in other Smash communities. In fact, it's perfect that Japanese top players are being vocal about this issue, because they're the most likely ones for Sakurai to hear about.
No one likes to ban a character - especially not one there was so much hype about after her announcement. But believe me when I say that Greward is one of the best European players by far and he could probably go to US majors and do well. Rydle is a great player on his own right, but until Bayonetta he had never won against several of Spain's top players, let alone wipe the floor with them like this.
Just like with everything else there'll of course be people who won't agree with this decision, but I wholeheartedly believe that at this point in time it is necessary to keep the competitive scene healthy and fun for everyone. And if Sakurai and/or his team finally decide to knock her down a few notches so that Bayonetta will be awesome but within reasonable limits, I'll be really glad to see this ban lifted.
Honestly the competitive scene is so stupid. Just because their character didn't win the ballot, they deem Bayonetta OP, I have beaten Bayonetta a ton of times and lost as her a ton of times, any character can be good or bad depending on how you play them, except for Zero Skill Spamus
If only there was some way for the developers to balance a character after it's been released...
Also, for whomever would like to form an educated opinion about this instead of blurting out pointless stuff like ''hurr I beat a lot of Bayo players, she's fine'', I'll leave this bit from the grand finals here as a starting point. You can make your own research about Bayo afterwards if you feel like it.
So the last new character Bayonetta is giving people problems just like the first new character Little Mac?
Give it time...and a few nerfs
@TheAceofMystery That's not the reason she's being banned at all..
She's getting banned because she has easy-to-use combos that can kill at 0% with virtually no repercussions. DI, in most cases, can't save you, and she can end matches in, literally, seconds.
The community isn't banning her because of what character she is, that isn't even a factor. They are banning her because she creates a toxic scene.
There's a Smash scene in Europe?
@AlexOlney I have a feeling you already know why.
People should be given random characters in these tournaments. Skill is winning regardless of the character given
@fed0ra7 Finally! Someone who knows what he/she is talking about and not just spewing ignorant bull****.
@shaneoh That would not be fair because one player could get the worst character and the other the best. Tier lists exist for a reason.
@TheRealThanos Misogeny? Seriously? You're just trying to start crap for the sake of it.
As I said "Skill is winning regardless of the character given"
@shaneoh That's the worst idea I've ever heard.
And yet Bayonetta still doesn't annoy me as much as Corrin's counter. Go figure!
You've not heard many ideas then.
Better nerf Bayonetta.
I still can't really figure out how to play her at all.
@shaneoh That... Wouldn't work at all, and it's an awful idea. Some characters are clearly better suited to win than others, that's why tiers exist. Doesn't matter how good the player is, you can't go in completely blind, with no practice, and expect to win (especially if you get a character like Zelda or Jiggs)
@shaneoh I've seen a great many stupid things said in my time here on NL. What you said is literally the worst one I've ever heard. Randomized tournaments? Seriously? How are people supposed to put in the time to get good with every single character on the roster? Ridiculous.
@shaneoh That would be impossible, if that ridiculous rule you purpose was implemented people would have to master EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER
@MagicEmperor I believe Corrin's counter has been nerfed.
Hence practising with all characters
Lol, even as far as comments and posts on NL, you've not been paying attention if that's the stupidest.
Just like everyone else would have to. It's no different than a decathlon requiring you to be proficient in 10 various athletic events
@shaneoh Sorry but that is a seriously silly idea.
@shaneoh Because 10 different events is so similar to 50+ unique characters on the roster people with different skill levels would have to master. Get out of here with that.
@shaneoh There are more than 50 character in the game... Also do you know what matchups are (you probably don't)?
@shaneoh It won't matter if we practice with all the characters. There are still characters that dominate, so it wouldn't make difference.
Do I think Bayo is ridiculous from a mechanical aspect yes because Witch twist being frame four and having a hitbox on both sides a well as dive kick bouncing off shields and of cause Witch time but it's only been 2 months and a Bayonetta has won a major in a strong region like the US. Basically in my opinion it's far to early for these decisions to be made and I think it's a knee jerk reaction to the fact Bayonetta forces you to play Sm4sh completely different then the rest of the cast.
I'm not at all a pro player by any stretch of the imagination. I do like playing as Bayonetta though. The way I see it she's kinda of like a more agile version of Little Mac. Powerful and quick but hard to control. The difference is that Little Mac is easy to predict and useless in the air. Two areas where Bayonetta is pretty fantastic.
Again, I don't play competitively so I don't care. But they've been pretty good with releasing patches and balancing the game. If she is an issue? She'll get nerfed.
I like using Bayonetta I'm waiting for the amiibo since I'm not that good using her character this makes me think it will be fun charging her amiibo up .
What, you mean how even a fight will be between two characters? No, I don't know about it
Yeah and what are the chances that one of them will be selected?
Ten or fifty, it's still more than one or two
Maybe, but it will be more interesting. I'd be more inclined to continue watching if it didn't feel like the same few characters on repeat.
Well I'm heading to bed, so if people want to @ me, I'll get back to you eventually. But I still stand by my opinion and have no intention of changing it, introduce a bit of uncertainty into the game, let the green lady have a better say in the matter.
@shaneoh Clearly you don't because if you knew you would realise how ridiculous your suggestion is.
She is broken - but that's what patches are for
Good, I'm glad - considering there will be no future patches for SSB4 for 3DS/Wii U. There's top-tier characters (ZSS, Sheik etc.), and then there's just the broken. Good job, Spain.
@The_BAAD_Man @Dakt The thing is, Bayonetta has way too much at her disposal. She has a 0-death combo that can be done in normal gameplay situations, Witch Time to punish virtually anything, and a stupidly good combo game.
In general, I agree with this. The community has learned to recognize things over time; the original Melee scene had a wide variety of stages and items(!) in competitive play.
Nobody wanted Midgard in as a counterpick stage, for instance.
Some people really need to get lives.
@RainbowGazelle How so? What are you even on about?
@MajinSoul How so?
So will Bayonetta get nerfed now?
@fed0ra7 God bless you
@Jazzer94 Spending large amounts of time writing paragraphs and paragraphs on detailed hit boxes and lag, etc. And making such a big fuss over a game character, it's just sad. There's so much more these people could do with their time.
As a competitive smasher, I have not lost a single game to Bayo yet.
Then again there is like an unmentioned agreement in the Austin community that for some reason suggests that no one use top tier characters.
@Detective_TeeJay No, I was just making a (bad) joke. And yet, sexy women are a no, but cartoony girls like Peach and Daisy are okay, so that is why I made that comment too, but it was still in jest because obviously, the way she looks wasn't the reason why she is banned.
Anyone should be able to get that and not accuse me of things that I have no intention of doing. Don't pretend you can read my mind, because you can't.
@TheRealThanos Read your- what on earth are you talking about? I would have to have been able to read your mind to get that that was supposed to be a joke.
I'm not sure how reading "misogeny" and interpretting it to mean "misogeny" is me trying to read your mind.
@Detective_TeeJay The already bad joke is losing the last bit of funny that it had, if it even did, but I simply meant to say with that comment "Spain doesn't allow sexy women and only wants decently dressed characters in Smash Bros" which would point to anti-feminism if anyone would want to make an issue of that. (provided that this was the reason, which it isn't)
Hope that clarifies it a bit more.
@RainbowGazelle The same could be said about playing video games...
@Detective_TeeJay come to think of it, I kind of misused the word misogyny there. My bad...
From reading the pre-link text, I actually got a fleeting feeling that Bayonetta was going to be banned because she was... 'a male fetish fantasy.'
@MarkyVigoroth Yup, that's what I meant to say as well, except I used the wrong fancy word in my previous comment...
That's a great idea! I totally agree. If the characters are balanced, it should not matter.
Haha, I totally agree. I've always laughed at the term "professional smash players," as its about as useful to the world as, well, professional smash players. The complete obsession from these people do not move society forward in any way.
So, what is the point of competitive smash if players have to choose one of , mabye, three or four characters to win. I play smash to enjoy every character that nintendo has created, in one game. Here's an idea, make everyone use the same character for competition. Every contestant has to be sheik!
@beautifulstrong it's impossible to balance any roster in any fighting game so they're equally fair and balanced especially one with over 50 characters. And no randomized tournaments is beyond silly. @shaneoh sure stand by your opinion. Plenty of people come up with dumb ideas all the time
@RandomBlue - edited the r-word out, it is included in the profanity filter.
@beautifulstrong No, it's a terrible "idea". There is a thing called matchups in which certain caracters are strong agains other specific characters so leaving it to luck would be a horrible decision. Not to mention that there are amazing, great, decent and bad characters and leaving it to luck would be , again, terrible. Even if all the character were at the same level, in order to have a chance in that format, people would need to master EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER (reminder that there are over 50).
@RainbowGazelle Yeah, because you, o wise one, on top of your high horse, know best what people should invest their free time into. Certainly not learning/spreading knowledge about a game they love and through which they've probably met a myriad of like-minded, pleasant people to hang out with. Nay - everything should be about an ambiguous search for the betterment of society and personal sacrifice. And naturally while they do so you should spend even more of your own time telling other people what to do with theirs.
Keep on being disgusting, hypocritical human beings, folks.
Bayo doesn't deserve to be in the game in the first place!
@LinkSword I just think it's a waste of time. Sorry for having an opinion.
@Dakt Its not just that, she gets high reward off of little to no risk with the moveset she has. May high level players have gotton extremely good with Bayonetta with only an hour or so of practice. Her UP B -> Side B -> Side B Combo can kill you at 0% basically. Banning her might be going too far, but she is indeed OP.
There are stronger characters than her though.
@MoonKnight7 Maybe to you it is, but most of these players play part time. They have real jobs, lives, its just a hobby they are passionate about. Its funny we have a double standard in society where people say: "do what makes YOU happy" yet critsize other people's decisions.
@meh1234 Oh, it has? Thanks! It's been a while, but I remember that counter being extreme. lol
0th world problems.
@RainbowGazelle More like sorry for being a cancerous individual throwing passive-aggressive shots against people trying to build something a lot of players can have a great time with in the long term. But sure, be at peace with your totally educated opinion.
@SM4SHshorts I was under the impression content updates were ceasing, but there was always the chance any required balance patches could be issued at a later date - Sakurai never did rule that out when Bayonetta and Corrin were released.
I mean, there could have been a statement since that I wasn't aware of, but it's not like a balance patch to nerf Bayonetta is somehow a "no" because development of content for this game has been ceased.
I'm glad people like Smash this much, but holy moly do my eyes glaze over when they start using the "lingo." I like Smash and generally consider myself good at it, but getting into this level of obsession just isn't fun to me. Play with 4 or more players in the room, and everyone gang up on whoever is spamming Bayonetta, and you will have lots of fun solving this problem.
@LinkSword Wow, we could do without the personal insults. I never said I was against Smash Tournaments. It's just the whole "professional smash player" thing I just don't get. Taking a game that seriously, and producing massive paragraphs arguing why a certain character should be banned, including data on hit-boxes and the like, seems a bit excessive. I realise the whole "get a life" comment I made is hurtful and not contributing to the discussion. For that, I'm sorry. I guess I just don't understand why the whole thing is taken so seriously.
when i think of bayonetta getting banned, i think of something else about her altogether. i think this should just be patched as the world deserves bayonetta in big screen tournament.
Lemme share something I believe will be a prophecy for Bayo's future.
"I almost never agree with banning anything in a fighting game and feel adaption should run its course. Even if Bayo warrants a ban, it's definitely too soon, IMO. But this perspective fits nicely though:
"We went through this in Brawl where MK is obviously hilariously broken.
Community - "No we should wait for more data"
... 6 months pass and some people switch to MK, some quit altogether...
Community - "Yeah he's good but we still need more data"
... 6 more months pass, more switch to MK, more quit...
"Well we have the data and MK is killing the game... Time to ban"
MK Players - "We (50% of the remaining players and most top players) will quit if you ban MK"
Community - "Well fudgeridooda...can't ban MK then"
The moral of the story (which has obviously been simplified) is that there is a time limit on implementing a ban. If we wait until the answer is obvious the damage is likely already done.
Ideally what will happen is this localized ban will force Nintendo's hand and 3 months from now we will have a healthy Bayonetta and the bans will be overturned but if we wait we risk losing another game which, outside of Bayonetta, is incredibly well balanced for a game with 60 characters."
Sakurai please buff her.
Competitive smash? More like... uhh... belongs in the trash?
@Dakt Or better yet, bait out a Witch Time then punish.
Since that seems to be the major crux of her advantage, it also becomes her greatest weakness.
Especially if you can force her to stale it with repeated failed use.
@RainbowGazelle It's just like any hobby. You ever hear comic collectors talk about their collections and throw around the lingo? Or fantasy nerds discuss the merits of certain authors and the canon of some imaginary world? For that matter, this entire site is run by people who spend their time discussing and analyzing the details of a hobby, and they do it professionally.
Oh noez! A top-40 player beats top-10 players! How unfair, let's ban the character they're using, as this cannot be allowed!
@KO-Cub I don't think it will happen that way.
Most people these days have more than one main; if someone is going to quit because their main is banned, they weren't a very serious tournament player in the first place.
Also, the second guy is right about the whole "3 mains out of 400+ players does not a case make" statement.
Bay isn't the new Meta Knight.
Unlike Meta Knight, she has weaknesses that CAN be exploited, and against a professional that can bait her movements and WT and use smart spacing and other tools, she's not an unfair opponent to fight against.
Capable of 0-to-deaths?
Yes. [though to be fair, all characters are, even if it's not in the form of true combos. You've just gotta be really REALLY damned good at reading an opponent]
But she's not "near 0 frame lag" broken like MK in Brawl was.
Bayonetta can carry skilled players in much the same way Fox or Sheik can carry skilled players; their tools and movesets are a margin superior to many of the other characters in the cast, but they aren't broken to the point that they cannot be beaten.
People say that her zero-to-deaths are an easy thing, but it takes a lot of practice to consistently make those combos land.
A lot of players that I've met still have issues getting her diagonal Afterburner Kick to come out in a quick and consistent manner during the stress of an actual match, for instance, but the reward for mastering that, much like the reward for mastering Fox or Sheik's moveset options, is an increase in the likelihood of victory, just as with Zero Suit, Fox, or Sheik.
If we're going to now start banning characters based on their abilities being strong compared to a lot of the cast, then we should be taking a look at how many Fox and Sheik players dominate the Melee scene, and wondering to ourselves why we let A-tiers exist there, but not Bayonetta, even though she's clearly an A-tier, not MKBrawl material.
@smashbrolink Thing is, if Witch Time fails, she can use Bat Within and avoid punishment.
I agree that she can be beaten, but she's DEFINITELY in a tier of her own. The fact that one small mistake can mean losing a stock, along with all of the insane combos she can do (she can kill from literally any blast zone given the smallest chance) and she gets rewarded for virtually no risk or even much effort... She is undoubtedly better than anyone else on the roster.
@CrazedCavalier Which I still find silly and outright lazy, considering the gimmick in Midgard is something quite clearly and easily telegraphed, and it's up to the players to use it to their advantage, or to fall into their own sprung trap.
Sure, learn the MU. I already know how to SDI of Up B. (But it's still hard to do due to the games nerf on the Smash DI)
The problem is Witch Time, because its mechanics are broken.
Don't get hit by it? Sure, let's just play like it was in brawl against ice climbers. Wait until they get close, stale, etc. which in turns makes it boring and annoying to play as.
Give Bayonetta Witch Time in which the duration you are trapped is scaled according to the damage, so things like a simple jab won't mess you up.
For the player using Bayonetta, she is a low risk - extremely high reward character.
And is easier to use than ice climbers, since you don't rely on a CPU partner to do stuff.
But yeah, banning her makes seems unnecessary.
@fed0ra7 There's still a point at which Bat Within won't activate after missing WT.
Aiming for that opening is what a pro should be doing.
Just like any other character, this is a case of learning her ins and outs, including how to combat her appropriately.
And again, if we're going to ban her for supposedly being so much better than 90% of the roster, to the point where there's a real serious risk of matches becoming boring because she's one of the few that most top players will use when they realize how good she can be when mastered, then we should have been looking at Sheik and Fox quite a while ago back in Melee, let alone here in Smash 4 right alongside ZSS.
There's a reason they have so many mains, and if we're going by the logic that is demanding Bayonetta be banned, then it's definitely not because they're "perfectly balanced".
Bay has a lot of unique tools that no one else has, but she's no frame-less Meta Knight.
I was sure I'd get a comment like this sooner or later. I'm pleased to hear that we can live our lives as we like, and that these people somehow find a way to survive in the world.
With that, by all means do whatever makes you happy, but my comment still stands. It's just a simple observation, judging that all three posts are easily about 12 sentences too long. "Professional Smash Player," and the fact that someone thought up the term, is just completely hysterical to me, I'm sorry.
@AlexOlney No offense, but I suck at competitive Smash and I almost beat you once, which means that you're just not very good. (You still won every match though, so you're still not as bad as me, just not much better.)
The new characters are certainly different to face. Corrin too has some interesting moves that make him/her hard to fight, but I've been learning over time how to counter them. Bayo is the same story. What these characters should have is a little more punishable moves, Corrin seems to have been nerfed enough to not feel OP, but Bayonetta is still pretty good in the risk/reward game. Too little risk, too much reward.
@Dr_Corndog Fair enough.
Wow, I really had to google a lot of terms to understand what they're saying. Especially the part from Volnutt_Trigger was hard to follow.
I understand the words but don't know what they mean in the game's context(e.g. I can imagine what a 'Downward After Burner Kick' is supposed to be but what's a 'jump cancel Witch Twist').
Also, I don't know Bayonetta's moves in Smash... I know witch time from Bayonetta 2, but didn't think they would implement it into Smash. Isn't that totally unfair?
I assume TO is tournament organizer and MK is Meta Knight?
What does OOS mean? Couldn't find it online.
Reading this article felt more like reading something in academic studies... but don't get me wrong, it's interesting! You live and learn.
@shani OoS means Out of Shield, moves which could be while having a shield up.
@JeagerTheSun Ah, thank you very much! Now I understand.
MajinSoul: "Competitive Smash is such a joke"
What he says ^
@shani no problem😉
The competitive scene changes their mind on a daily basis. Remember when Little Mac was considered OP? They didn't even need him for people to realize he is trash weeks later. People complained about Corrin too and he/she is still fine. Also, I recall Mewtwo being terrible and now that he won one tourney, people are calling him Pay2Win. Smash players are fickle.
The competitive Smash community in Spain can do as they wish, it's their community and they can have fun however they want, but nobody will respect them for it, and they are only handicapping themselves if they ever enter any tournaments outside of their own community, all of which allow Bayonetta.
I also don't understand why this is such big news, the competitive Smash community in Spain was basically unheard of until this news of Bayonetta being banned in their community came out. It's like hearing that the American Ping Pong team was banning back handing, basically, who cares about what an already irrelevant group is doing?
The character I have the biggest issue with is Cloud. I'm not calling for a ban or anything, but I main Lucina and its not fun to watch Cloud dodge, shield, and counter everything I try while his moves tend to be almost impossible to punish.
Corrin is tough but manageable, and most Bayo players online a terrible. They can pull off the same combo but suck with everything else.
But Cloud players are almost always at the top of their game, and he utterly trounces Lucina, Roy, Ganondorf, and Ike(The main four characters that I use)
Link has it better, but even he struggles.
Most Cloud players I've met online are actually quite the opposite, most of the ones I've met really are bad and lose almost every time.
In fact I let them fill out their meter so that it somehow, hopefully, turns a little bit more challenging.
lol thats a funny joke.
Never liked competive gaming where you are stuck with the "top tier" stuff, a game makes 20+ characters, but god forbid if you don't play the top 5 to have a chance, instead of what you like. Why not just balance them all to be equally competive then.
It's like Pokemon, over 700 of them, but only what.. 100 if at that are even useable in tournaments, with the same movesets.
Yeah there is nothing wrong with Cloud. I main him, and I feel like I am very competent with him, but I can and (trust me) I do get beaten often.
I know, it shoulda' been Isaac...
"Time's up for the witch" is a good pun for the article's tagline, but "Ban the witch! Ban the witch!" coulda been funnier.
Which is where the fun stops on the whole issue. I'm really annoyed at how trigger-happy the Smash competitive scene is when it comes to banning stuff and releasing tier lists. To me, Smash will always be "a potentially competitive fighter mostly focused on fun that's accessible to everyone", or, more simply, the one game where you can make any gaming star duke it out with another video game legend.
@MoonKnight7 Its fine, I just get kinda of triggered when people say something is worthless if it doesnt benefit society. I like supporting Smash Pros because they are passionate about what they do, and seem like nice people.
I must agree that what Bayonetta is capable of is stupid. However, I feel it's a little too early for a ban. Give it more time, 6 months in and everyone's stance on Bayonetta is the same? Then a ban would probably be necessary. Year in, definitely. However, it's only been 1-2 months since Bayonetta has been added to the game. Give the character more time.
And yet I was able to convey the entire concept....
I agree, people do come up with dumb ideas all the time, I am fortunate that mine isn't one of them. Randomising is a great balance.
@beautifulstrong To the competitive players, being a Nintendo crossover doesn't matter. They choose charcaters who they believe will win them tournaments, or choose characters that they play the best with.
It's similar to Little Mac's situation (except Bayonetta is good in competitive). Rebalancing her to better suit the current way the game is played competitively at major tournaments would require reworking the majority of her character. It's not going to happen, the developers aren't going to spend time doing that just to make competitive players happy.
Maybe she'll return in Smash 5 with a different and less gimmicky/cheap move set. Until then, competitive communities and tournaments that don't like her should just ban her.
@SnackBox corrin and cloud limit spamming got me, why aren't they banned there worse than bayo
@shaneoh I see that is impossible for me to try and teach you so you stop being so ignorant. It's not about you defending your opinion, it's about you being a stubborn idiot. Have a nice day.
Banning should only be used as a last resort option if things get too bad. She's only been out for two months and people want bans.
Does anyone remember Melee Sheik and how she was nearly banned because she was deemed "too good"? Of course not (even though there were tourneys that premtively banned her). Nobody remembers the past, so this history is bound to repeat itself in similar ways.
[sarcasm]Wow, that showed me, let me rethink my entire life[/sarcasm]
I could easily argue you stubborn for being stuck in your ways and refusing to accept any change. So I will. You've done nothing to show why winning regardless of character is less skilful than winning because you only use two or three characters, nor how having characters randomly picked would be less entertaining.
@shaneoh I've told several reasons why that would not work...
Forgive my stupidity senpai, but please tell me again why winning regardless of character is less skilful.
Don't worry, i forgive your stupidity <3
Senapi, could it be that you have no answer?
Oh, i have an awser alrigh. You see, you are right on one thing, it's more skillful to master all characters without a doubt, but it's completely impossible to do so, so your suggestion is not going to be viable.
I've not been talking of mastery, only competency.
It's not going to work dude, even that is difficult, that format is not going to work.
Look, it's obvious that i'm not going to change your opinion, i'm sorry, i tried and failed but i did my best. Going to catch some z's now, not going to comment about this anymore, feel free to reply but i'm not going to awser. Goodbye.
Well people are playing this game "professionally" it's not meant to be easy. Don't feel sorry, it's my opinion, not anyone else's.
It's only one country doing this, and Spain hardly has the most major competitive Smash scene in the world.
Here in America, everyone just follows what ZeRo says, and as ZeRo supports her, she's safe.
Sooner or later she will be banned in the states, watch.
Bayonetta is bay and I adore her character, so it makes me feel a smidgen of sadness to see so much negativity around her, but I don't know very much at all about the Smash competitive scene and don't plan on getting in it. So if the really find the need to ban her for now, then that's fine.
I like how Spain decides to ban Bayonetta without trying to find a weakness. If the community would come together to find whatever we can do, she'd be an easier fight, but until then, I guess people can be upset that they can't win without practice.
Just ban witch time? I mean, like how the ice climbers infinites were banned, and the metaknight infinite teleport.
@Expa0: I know where you're coming from. I mainly downloaded her to get that awesome Clock Tower stage. Just played Classic on 2.0 and All-Star on Easy for the trophies. Wouldn't be able to hold my own playing as her in a match among friends though.
@Arngrim Everyone wants balance, but perfect balance is impossible to achieve. You can come close, but even that becomes more difficult as the size of the roster increases. Smash 4 is actually pretty well balanced considering the size of its roster.
I am really, really glad I do not play Smash competitively. I'm content with 100% completion and collecting the amiibo (with only three left to get to complete the entire roster).
I played agianst a toruney regular once. I wasn't mad that he wiped the floor with me - I was quite impressed, actually. Picked up a couple tricks from him too. But I couldn't play like that on a regular basis. That, and I'd probably get strange looks from people since I usually play as characters that aren't higher tier (like Little Mac, Ganondorf, and Mewtwo, for example).
@smashbrolink A player can win without being the more skillful competitor on that stage. That's what pretty much every competitive community is about: having players compete in tests of skill, not tests of "who can navigate around stage hazards better".
@shaneoh your idea isn't bad at all, and is one i can actually see happening to different games in the future. However, i think sm4sh might not be able to handle it too well in an actually professional competitive scene where pro players only have so much time to master a handful of fighters. I can see this for Skullgirls or maybe even Killer Instinct, and even SFV. However, SFV wouldn't be able to handle randomised tournaments either since many of the pros for street fighter have been playing sincle all the way back since sf2 and still dedicate to their mains from older street fighter games that made it in to sfv, or at least characters of a similar playstyle. Maybe Melee would handle this better than sm4sh 4 if they locked out fighters that are below B+ tier and make sure the match-ups are fair. Smash 4 couldn't handle it, especially with all of the patches that can change stuff dramatically. Honestly, shiek and zss were top tier for so long that the nerf seemed to have came too late. All the nerfs did was change the small window of s-tier characters instead of making it larger. Sm4sh is fickle with its competitive scene. Just to repeat, i think your idea is great: at the moment, it just wouldnt work for sm4sh. Maybe 10 from now if the game's competitive scene lasts that long and finally strikes a proper balance to where there aren't necessarily any F or S tier problems with balance or bad matchups, randomised tournaments could be a thing. This is all coming from someone who's all over the place in the FGC, though
Usual competitive scene. Everyone loses to a new player, and instead of figuring out new strategies of counter attack just gives up and calls foul. If she needs a nerf, I'm sure she'll get one.
@RandomBlue Wow, I bet your ideas are awesome. You seem like such a cool guy, I bet you have the brightest ideas!!!
@beautifulstrong This article sure is old. Glad you could think of nothing better than stopping by to leave an extra comment adding nothing beneficial, but a rude passive aggressive post.
@RandomBlue I'm glad you liked it. Spreading cheer is beneficial!
@shaneoh This is about the dumbest thing I've ever read. Saying someone should win regardless of character is ridiculous, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Can't be as dumb as replying to a comment more than a year and a half old.
If a team can win despite the opposing team having an advantage, which team is better? Git good.
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