Devlind

@TheFanatic I guess I'm kind of burnout after years of getting games that try to get the attention of people that just don't care about the franchise instead of the people that supported it for years. That said, I don't want a hardcore Pokémon experience that only veteran players could enjoy, just a game that respects the player and let them figure out stuff. BotW is the most recent example in my mind of this being done right.

Gen 7, for me, is far worse than 6. If Gen 6 was already disappointing during the single player campaing, SM/USUM is way worse with its constant interruptions, blocked paths and terrible story (I mean, I want to be the champion/hero, not Lillie's bodyguard, but that may be only me). Meta-game wise, Gen 7 tried to make some Pokémon more viable through Z-moves, but that ultimately brought an unnecessary layer of depth since you had to rely on the other player being bad/unexperienced enough to use a common strategy with the Z-moves. Predicting if your opponent had a Mega and its moveset based on the team is far easier than predicting which of the 6 has a Z-Move (or multiple)... and then predicting his moveset and finally which move he's gonna use the Z-move on. As I said, it was easy if it looked like they just copied a set from Smogon, but with a player that knew what he was doing was quite the headache to deal with. Then you have USUM which is the stupidest thing ever. Just when we thought we were over the third version (gen 5 had sequels and 6 had remakes instead), we go back to that, and worse, we get now 2 different versions. They could have added more cool stuff through DLC, but no, instead we got this. These, along the nerfs that some Pokémon got (like Gengar) are some the reasons I stopped playing it altogether.

@Serebii Nintendo also said that MP4 development was going great before announcing they were scrapping it, but hey, you can keep on bitting the hook with their PR talk.

@Timppis LG feels like a different kind of game IMO. Remakes usually brought in everything new that was introduced since they were released (FRLG brought in everything up to gen 3, HGSS with Gen 4 and ORAS with Gen 6). LG seems more like a regression to even be compared to previous remakes.

@Frank90 I need to agree. Not having held items and abilities make the LG battles look rubbish.

I dunno, perhaps they need to learn they need to put in some effort into making these games every now and then.

@Crono1973 You're right, I fail to understand what does this has to do with anything I've said, really. Why does it matter that I can't buy the same digital game or download it again in 10 years if I already have it in my system? Isn't that the same if I can't buy the same game brand new in 10 years in any store? Like I said, several times now, if you screw up in both, you'll need to do exactly the same. The reason you can share your digital purchases at the moment is really evident. Some people are pieces of **** that would take advantage of that. Some wouldn't bother buying a game when they can download it for free. As I mentioned, there's an early effort to somewhat solve it, and will probably take a long time until it is solved completely, but it will happen.

"Also with digital there are no used copies"

Excuse me, are you sh*tting me? How on earth would you buy an "used" digital game? Please tell me the specifics since the idea is just baffling to me.

"This is why physical is not tied to a store closing and digital is tied to a store closing. Understand now?"

Yes sir, but that's still missing the point though. B for the input/effort though.

"One game can be stored and pulled out once a year to be played but the console that plays your games will be in use for EVERY game that you play. The console gets far more use than any single game. Understand now?"

As I told Rex over there, there's still degradation, even when it is not in use. Both mediums can last perfectly a huge amount of time to even be a real concern. On disc based systems, the disc reading lenses usually wears off faster than the memory itself, so it brings them to an even ground if you really want to keep kicking on this hill.

"Also, I have been told that electronic components can degrade over time, even when in storage and not in use. I had that happen to me once with an Xbox 360. It worked fine and I put it into storage (in my bedroom, in a drawer) and when I came back a few months later it wouldn't work. I guess it would be the Red Ring but it was the E model so no actual Red Ring."

Yup, curious how degradation works for all things, doesn't it?

"Fair enough, prove me wrong. Which digital game from 1985 can still be downloaded from it's original digital store and still works fine on it's original hardware or a clone of it's original hardware?"

You really need to dive here into specifics to prove your point, don't you? Then I can play that as well. Find me any store that sells a brand new The Legend of Zelda for NES at retail price. And while you're on it, find me an unopened sealed NES or an official substitute to put in the cartridge and play.

If you really want to go into specifics, let's go balls deep into them, shall we? All of the games that came in 1985 are digital. In fact, every videogame that has ever been made is digital and most are stored in a sort of electronic-based media. The most viable way to provide the games to the public back then was through a vessel. I'll let you choose. Cartridges? Discs? Floppy discs? You name it. The only physical thing about them is the vessel made for us to be able to transport it to our homes and play it. At the end of the day, it is only an option on whether you want to have them stored in a glorified SD card (in the case of the Switch) or stored in your console or any external storage device. I don't know why you insist into comparing the closure of the digital store with the ability to play the games you already bought and have saved and I really don't care, really. Like I told Thanos up there, I only replied to both since I didn't wanted to be rude with you (and I tried to be nice along the way), but as hard as I can, I can't take any of your comments seriously. Just own your opinion about your preference, make it about you, stop trying to discredit the one you don't like playing it from the "best way" POV. That's everything I hope you get from all of this.

@ThanosReXXX Well, when you have to stop and explain a joke, it stops being funny (at least to me), so I don't really feel the need to explain it, so let's keep it flying by over our heads.

To be honest, I'm quickly losing interest in any of this replies but I only came back since I feel like I would be rude if I decided to ignore them. So, just for closure, I'll trace back to my original comment since I still believe I've been trying to make that exact same point through all of this comments, though admitedly seems like a futile effort.

"I agree with that, but I don't see it entirely that way. Yes, closing the shop and blocking the option to redownload a game is a bad thing, but it is hardly different from losing your physical game when they are not producing it anymore. Sure, you can pick up a used copy, but looking it in that way, I don't feel so bad about it at least."

My point was, is and will be that both share this same problem. If I lose my copy of Super Mario World, it stops working somehow, my home gets burned to the ground or some rando just decided to come and steal my copy on my sleep, I'll have to find a way to play it again if I really want to, and since Nintendo isn't producing more copies for the SNES I'll have to either get an used one, somehow manage to put my hands and wallet on a factory sealed copy or just get it on a newer platform. Nintendo not producing the game anymore and stores not having actively it on sale is like losing the ability to buy/download it again on the eshop. In both cases you'll end up looking for something else if you screw your copy somehow.

I'll be addressing your points, as I said, to not be rude though I don't really care about the answer anymore, but here we go:

"There is no way, in this existing universe, that you can objectively come up with a list that puts digital on an even foot with physical games, where benefits are concerned. No way, not ever."

You're talking out of thin air here and with a completely biased perception, even when you played the "objectively" card. If some digital purist came here he could (and would) say exactly the same as you did. No matter how "objective" you are about the two, bias will always move one over the other and that's what I tried to say on my last comment as well. The problem here is that neither you or this other dude are owning that. Both are only trying to put the one you prefer over the other, disregarding any other thing that doesn't fit with your preferences without actually owning that opinion openly. It shouldn't be "physical/digital is better than the other because this and this", it should be "physical/digital is better FOR ME than the other because I FIND this and this suiting MY PERSONAL PREFERENCES the best". I'm not sure if could make it even simpler than this so this is my final try to put that through.

"Older games on disc and on cartridge are most definitely YOUR property, denoted by the fact that there is no lease/rental period or any given length of time that prevents you from keeping them forever, and also no directive that prevents you from reselling them."

Yup, definitely discs and cartridges, box, boxart and whatever it has is yours except for the actual ownership of the files. You own everything except that, with the only thing making you able to playing it is the actual license, no matter if the game is a day or 100 years old. I will not go deep on this seems it is quite simple to understand. Now you are entering in the territory of the second market, which, again, already addressed at least one time in one of my previous comments, but now that you mention it, why would it matter being able to resell it you you're saying that you want to keep them for the longest you can? Why would that be important? It seems just like you brought that up to force a possibility rather than an actual need or concern. Doesn't quite add up, for me at least since it seems that it makes sense to you to even bring that up here.

"The ONLY thing that is protected, is the Intellectual Property on those media, so for example Mario or Zelda, or Master Chief, or Crash Bandicoot or whatever. But the disc or cartridge they're on, is most definitely your property."

Already addressed it in the last paragraph. In this case, Nintendo sells you the license to play the game of their IP, not the IP/game itself. This is why some people didn't understood why Nintendo tried to block the usage of their property on Youtube. Since then they have softened a little, but they were not wrong in the slightest.

"So, that's another story altogether, and like I already mentioned before, they changed the rules once they went with digital games, but for everything until the previous generation, all retail game media was yours to keep and to do with as you saw fit, except for making illegal copies of it, but that's kind of an obvious one..."

They didn't, it only became overall public knowledge.

"As for games being disabled/removed: besides the examples I mentioned, from games where the online component is either all-encompassing or so big that it effectively makes the game all but useless, there are also examples from titles simply being pulled from the stores, for whatever reason. That has happened on Xbox Live, and on the Nintendo eShop, multiple times."

Much ado about nothing. Pulling a game out of the store is not the same as taking out the ability to play it if you already have it downloaded. Nothing else to say here.

"Some of these titles have also been documented here on NLife. Of course they don't disappear from your console's hard drive, but if you can't re-download them, then you're basically screwed, if you want to move the games to another console or another hard drive, which happens quite frequently."

Still no sources. I can move the games I have in my SD that I use on the Wii and stil have access to it. The same can be done with care on the 3DS/Switch. The only thing that is blocked is downloading them again, in the case of the Wii.

"And this other dude also offers a VERY valid point that where in comparison of game degradation it might only be a single physical disc, with a hard drive degrading, ALL of your games at once are at risk, so there too the comparison is clearly in favor of physical.

Yup, but I for hell wonder if the degradation only works 1 disc at the time. Even stored, degradation is real. As far as I was I'm aware of, Wii doesn't use hard drives but flash-memory tech (correct me if I'm wrong). A valid point, but not for this particular situation, unless I'm corrected about it.

"Oh, and on a side note: digital has actually already been around for longer, so we can absolutely compare its longevity to physical media."

That's true, but not exactly in the same way on consoles as it used to be. After all, physical media is only a vessel for the digital game to be played on a console.

"Maybe it wasn't available in every area, but you might remember a thing called the NES Satellaview, which allowed users to download special versions of NES games to a floppy disc. Well, these services are already long gone, but the normal NES games that people still own, are still playable, whereas the floppy discs with the downloaded games on them are often corrupted and/or completely unplayable."

That's what time does the best, and that exactly can happen to any physical media. Floppy discs are very fragile if they are not given a lot of care, which is part of the reason on why they usually get corrupted, but that doesn't mean all got corrupted. This is the exact same scenario every storage media will face with time.

"Only a handful of them have reached collectors that have taken better care of them, so these still work, but they are most definitely the exception. Points go to physical again, in this situation..."

I can't see why. Last time I checked, floppy discs were physical media. If the games were stored in a more durable vessel (cartridge, CD, Bluray, hard drive, flash memory, you name it), they would still be playable. So this is actually point against fragile physical media, but whatever.

"Well, I'll stop here, before we keep going around in circles. We agree on quite a few things, except just not on the benefits of physical over digital, but that's okay. To each their own, as they say."

I never disagreed with the benefits one has the over the other or tried to impose one as the best option. I don't know why people always try to make it that way. I already addressed this multiple times and I don't feel like I should do it again.

"Thanks for the discussion, and just enjoy the games in whatever way you like, and we will do the same with our physical copies... "

This is exactly what I was trying to say through all of my comments. My original intention was never to attack your point of view. I just tried to bring up that, from a different perspective than yours, it didn't looked as bad as you were framing it. Nothing more, nothing less.

@Crono1973 I never tried to imply that they were, but they are being protected in some sort of manner. At least a good enough one to prevent rot. And well, you are now taking this in different direction. You're playing this card as "physical media vs digital store", which I don't believe are compatible at all. It would be "Brick and stone stores vs digital stores" for that matter. I really don't have any interest in discussing that topic since it was never the point, at least from my side.

And yes, I believe it is, at least a close enough one. What does one do to keep a game CD from scratches, damage, and ultimately becoming useless because of the bites of time? Storing it, just like a Wii could be stored? It being used only when the game is played can be applied both ways, and while I've seen cases of Wii consoles being repaired, I've never seen such thing with CD other than those "repairs" that effectively shorten their life span, but please correct me if I'm being naive about this topic since I'm no expert.

I'm sorry my perspective seems embarrasing to you. Such thing was never my intention, but there's nothing more I can do to help you there. I can understand that, I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself respecting that matter. What I can't seem to understand is your reason for "33 year old" games not being able to work fine just because they are digital.

@ThanosReXXX Wow, that's a big comment. I'll try to keep it long too to take MY REVENGE!

Of course, if you take care of your games, systems and whatnot it will last 40, 50, X number of years, but what I'm trying to say is that, if you take care of your physical games/systems that way, there's no reason on why digital media couldn't last that long as well. Both are relatively the same in that aspect. At least on the Switch, the cartridges are only a glorified storage medium where your digital game is stored along with the license to play it. When you buy digital it is already stored in your console/external storage alongside your license to play it. The main difference is that you can share the physical media since there's no easy way to duplicate it. In the case of digital, creating a duplicate is pretty easy and that's why they don't allow you to share it (or potencially selling it multiple times), but I think with time they'll sort out that issue. Nintendo is already doing baby steps, allowing sharing digital games if you have the online subscription, logging your account into other Switch and playing it there (of course, connected to the internet and only having 1 active account at the time, but there's already an effort there).

We still don't know for a fact that physical lasts more than digital since this last one, at least in consoles, hasn't been around as long as physical games, so I can't be sure it could be taken as a fact unless you have a series of documented cases of digital games disappearing from any given console even when they were already installed. I bet that, if back then every game was delivered without the need of any physical medium, we would still have them if our consoles were in good conditions (and as you say that your older consoles still work perfectly fine, I guess that, if you had any digital games there, they would still be playable). I can't see a reason why they would last significantly less if you take, as you said, diligent care of your belongings.

Of course, being unable to download it again is a shame, but it is also a shame not being able to get a brand new sealed copy of SMB3 in my closest Best Buy right now. If you lost your game or if it gets corrupted, in both cases you'll end up looking for an used copy to replace it, or even better, getting it on a newer platform, if available.

This is a common misconcetion. You don't buy the game per se, just the license to play it. You don't, by any means, really own the game in both physical or digital (something almost every developer makes clear when you reach the credits). If that was the case, then you, by all rights, should be able to get a new copy in any store since you already bought the physical game once, but it doesn't work like that. You only buy 1 license, and if we go to specifics, digital "trumps" here in short-medium term since you, as long as it is available, can download it again and again with that same license. In physical, if you lost it or break it, that's it. You either find a way to retrieve/repair it or you'll need to get another license to play it, but none of this is really important to the topic, I just wanted to point it out for the sake of MY REVENGE!

And for the examples, those are clearly online, something I even addressed when I asked for them. I still don't know of any game that has an offline single player campaing that can't be played because the servers went down. Of course, playing Dark Souls without online isn't the same, but you can still play it perfectly fine without it.

If you want to put it that way, I can bet you'll be able to play your digital copy of BotW in 10 or 20 years from now too. And yes, I know that you can look for an used copy, I've several comments pointing that out (even here), but both share that same inconvenience. I'm repeating myself here, but just for sake of MY REVENGE!, I'll do it. Lost your game? Get an used one. Your digital game got somehow corrupted and can't be played anymore? Get an used one too. Or even better for both cases: get the same game, if available, in a newer platform. The Wii Shop was mostly the embodiment of this last bit.

And of course, if you compare point to point they'll not be exactly the same, I'm not trying to sell that in any sort of way, but if you do that you'll end up with a similar, close-enough list in which what really trumps at the end is personal preference.

And well, I don't think I was being pessimistic or anything really, all the contrary. I believe that in my original comment about it I just used that to give out a reason to be care free about it and actually enjoy both sides... which is exacly what you're trying to suggest here. Accepting that fate, no matter how confident you are about your genes, actually helps a lot to enjoy life more than avoiding/discarding the idea since you get a very powerful reason to just don't give an f about certain, meaningless circumstances like worrying about being able to play your Atari games when you're 80 years old (I know you aren't the Atari guy, but I've just used that as an example).

Oh boy, I think this is long enough for MY REVENGE!, but while arguing with you has been a pleasure, this seriously takes some time to write down, so let's try to keep it short next time, shall we?

@LoveEmpath As someone already said, tier lists are mostly applied to high level gameplay with the help of tournament results. As of now, getting into Elite Smash with any characters with low usage is extremely easy. Most of the data that Sakurai has access now is not really that relevant since it consists mostly of not so-good players that get wrecked by K. Rool. That's why the last patch mostly addressed landing-hitstun lag. Sakurai will start to get useful info in some time, when Elite Smash status actually becomes harder to achieve.

So, we only have 1 confirmed date... We need a new direct soon.

@Sciqueen Oh I though those were the last games you bought. Yes, Chrono Trigger seems like a better choice overall.

@Crono1973 Well, if you can't see it from my perspective or just want to disagree with it, then there's nothing else I can do, and that's ok.

@Sciqueen It seems like a solid list. I got cubello too. It looked like fun.

@Crono1973 That's true, I'm not denying that, but it also true that if you care about your discs enough to keep them in good state for years, I don't know why the same couldn't be done on the system/memory you have your digital games too. It seems like a contradiction to use such an argument, but it may be only for me.

I never tried to say that digital games last longer. I can't even pinpoint something along those lines in any of my comments. If anything, the closest thing I said is that both will end up being defeated by time. My point is and will be that there isn't a huge difference in both formats. It is true that both offer some benefits over the other, but both have risks that can be compared. For me, it isn't about one being better than the other since I believe both are similar, but about which one suits you the best. That's everything there's to it in my comments.

Edit: Left a piece of your comment when I replied. Oops!

@Seacliff That's sincerely the worst part of it all.

@ThanosReXXX Yes, it is a shame that they can't hold onto the servers for eternity, but at the same time, they can't keep the production of new copies either. Not having the ability to download it again is just like not having the ability to get a new copy for the suggested retail price on any shop. In both cases is an inconvenience and you'll end up paying a little extra. Both have their risks of either have the game data corrupted, losing the cartridge somehow or the system altogether.

I don't know where are you getting they can disable games. I've never seen such a case other than in games that heavily rely on a server to work like MMO/online-only multiplayers. Those usually don't have a single player campaing, so they become unplayable most of the time. Never heard of a game with a single player campaing being unplayable because the servers went down or something.

And as I said, you will be able to revisit all your digital games as long as you still have them stored, just like you have your physical games stored. Yes, you must be able to get the system that has them up and running (which is one of the biggest arguments people that only play physical have), but you still need that if you want to play your physical games too. In both cases you'll be looking for another used console, though admitedly, in digital you might be looking for an used game as well.

And to respond to that side note, we don't know. I'm not pessimistic or anything, but we really don't know. Is in our best interest to be around as long as we can, but we don't know when we'll suffer a car accident, or a cardiac arrest, get stung by way to many bees or just fall from a ladder. Young age is not a determining factor to be honest. We had that article not long ago about that young guy that wanted to play Ultimate before cancer could get the best of him. He probably had a long life ahead of him if it wasn't for that, but he just didn't had a choice. In short, we just don't know.

@Antraxx777 Not trying to sound rude or anything, but if you ate breakfast this morning, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's no world hunger. That your collection especifically hasn't suffered from that doesn't mean it isn't an ongoing problem.

@NEStalgia Never said otherwise, but I think I clearly left that out since Nintendo isn't getting anything from the expensive "new sealed" copies or the used ones. And yes, all electronics will end up failing, just like any physical media. We can see that nowadays with disc rot on PS1 games. Time will eventually eat everything, so yeah, I still believe both are more similar than people often think.

@Crono1973 Their responsability isn't the same as the others, I agree, but it lasts until they say so. I believe that's how it is on their terms of service, which everyone of us agrees with when using it. As I said, my example goes as far as with new copies since it is not possible to get digital used copies. I really don't care whether you think my example is good or bad, so go along with whatever you think is right.

For the matter of the best controller for any given game, it is down to personal preference, really. If you feel like it is better that way, that's ok, but that wasn't the point.

@AlphaElite PIRATE! BURN HIM!

@Averagewriter Well yes, that's a valid concern, but a small one when you consider that most of our offsprings will be playing other games by that time just like we're doing now. Companies will sell their best old games again and again to be playable in current gaming devices, and any lost games will be kept available through emulation. We're living this now and this will probably keep on happening when we're long gone. So again, I usually don't bother thinking about this too much.

@Averagewriter Some of us won't be around in twenty-thirty years, so I usually don't bother thinking about this too much.

@ThanosReXXX Again, I agree, but Nintendo isn't blocking in any way your ability to play the digital games you already own and have downloaded. You just aren't going to be able to buy more (or download them again when the servers go offline), and, as I said, that would be the same as them stopping production of a certain game, in which case you can't get a new copy in stores anymore when it is sold out. I'm just trying to say that digital isn't that too different from physical.

@KingBowser Then getting another account on the Switch is the way to go. At least I did that with BotW.

@ThanosReXXX Well, probably you haven't lost any game, but it doesn't mean it can't happen to anyone else. And I agree it gets down to personal preference. Personally, I like both. I like physical games, but I have no problem with a digital version if I feel like I want to have the game available at any time, even if it means that someday I will not be able to download it again. If the 12 year Wii shop period is any indication, I'll probably be playing in other platform when that happens to even be an inconvenience, to me at least.

@KingBowser I guess you're right, but I would suggest making another account in that case. You get to keep your old save, but the only bad thing is that you'll get no online if you don't have a family membership.

@MasterGraveheart I'd recommend to steer clear of even playing that mode.

@KingBowser Why would you want to do that?

@RaphaBoss At least he doesn't get any cheap wins anymore when he uses a last stock out of stage panic up b.

@HenFjo If you registered it before the deadline, you should receive the code within a week under the name "Thanks for buying Super Smash Bros. Ultimate". You have until june to redeem it.

@coolaggro Sakurai cares.

@DavidMac Well, you should always save every receipt at least for some time in case something goes wrong, so this is a learning experience. If you just don't want them to fill your inbox, make a rule so all of Nintendo emails go directly into a special folder/label. This probably will help you next time. You might as well try giving Nintendo a call. I've read they send duplicates if you deleted it on accident.

@ThanosReXXX I agree with that, but I don't see it entirely that way. Yes, closing the shop and blocking the option to redownload a game is a bad thing, but it is hardly different from losing your physical game when they are not producing it anymore. Sure, you can pick up a used copy, but looking it in that way, I don't feel so bad about it at least.

@PipeGuy64Bit That was one of the last games I bought too, but I made sure last year to get enough points to leave my balance in 0 though.

@holygeez03 Perhaps, but it will be tricky with all the hacked Wii around since it was quite easy to download the entire catalog to an external HD.

Knuckles voice Oh no.

@Isaix I agree at some extent. Other M was exciting when they presented it, but disappointing once released. Federation Force was disappointing when they first presented it, but quite fun and enjoyable once you get your hands on it. Both were disappointing, yes, but for different reasons IMO.

@Wesjedker I know, but I was talking about the poll results.

@Leuke The previous Prime games weren't in HD and Retro doesn't seem to be big enough to handle the project quickly. 4-5 years seem more likely.

@JDORS That's mainly Sakamoto. Tanabe doesn't really care about that.

It's truly impressive that more people are on the moon than actually mad about this.

Well, this means we're 3-4 years away in the best case scenario.

You can't trust this kind of things anymore. They said too that MP4 development was going really good and now they come out an say that they are scrapping it since it wasn't good.

@jtmnm It took some time for me, but not 2 weeks. Look it up in the email you have registered your Nintendo Account, even in your junk/deleted categories. It should say: "Thanks for buying Super Smash Bros. Ultimate" or something like that.

@The_Mysteron As Mii costumes, they would be cool.

@Samwise7 That is a good idea... if it was for free. Since we're gonna pay for it, I actually prefer getting good/better characters

@TheFanatic That's correct, but the japanese are extremely nationalist. They do care about their results overseas, but they care even more about their results in their home country. The PS4 might have a bigger install base overall, but the Switch is getting closer, especially in Japan. Sony doesn't want that to happen, and I'm sure they'll do whatever it takes to prevent Nintendo from taking the best selling console spot in Japan.

I have enough points for 2 more games. I should probably get them this weekend.