Smash Ultimate Nearly Featured Decidueye Rather Than Incineroar, Lack Of ARMS Fighters Explained

So they started developing the game before ARMS was in the cards? Strange.

Piranha isn't a hero? So Bowser is?

I like Daddy Rowlet but his moveset would be fairly cliche. Arrows, teleporting, stun counters and a Pitt style up special.
I'd like to see an Octopath fighter in a Shulk style, with chargeable boost points.

Any gen 7 starter would have been a terrible choice. Incineroar is pretty ugly too but Sakurai made him actually pretty cool.
Furthermore, I'm happy that a ARMS character is isn't in the game. I would much rather prefer classic characters like they did with K.Rool and Simon.
We'll see what the DLC will be. I really hope it's not going to be the minecraft character.

Personally, I'm glad we got Incineroar. Dude's got personality to spare.

Still kind of sucks that Rex and Pyra aren't here though.

Either way I wish instead of a pokemon they had included some other classic Nintendo character. It's nice to see something out of the blue (the way Piranha Plant was so out of left field).
Maybe even the lead from Startropics (I forget his name)

I'd like to see Jibanyan added to Smash and Paws of Fury the crap out of any pokemon.

@Moroboshi876 I am guessing he might mean hero in a looser sense, such as to refer to main protagonists or antagonists, as the other Mario characters fall into this category and so do most others in their respective games (though clearly exceptions exist).

Besides, "hero" is a matter of perspective. Bowser may very well be a hero to Koopers and Goombas.

@Nomad That’s... a genuinely good shout given that Yokai Watch 4 is coming out on Switch.

I know they've said there are only going to be 5 DLC packs but I'm hoping that they continue to support the game through out the life of the Switch. I'd be happy if they just kept this version for the next console. Just keep adding new character packs every 6 months or so...

That doesn't really make sense about the ARMS characters. Put them in as DLC if the the 'timing' wasn't right the first time around no?

I doubt Sakurai or anyone outside of Nintendo EPD had any idea what Arms was until the day it was unveiled at the January 2017 Switch presentation.

@Lizuka : I think Bewear, Mimikyu, Alolan Exeggutor, or Blacephalon would have been far better choices for a Gen VII Pokémon rep. I'm really fed up with the extremely bland character choices for Pokémon and Fire Emblem, both of which have a very diverse cast of very colourful and distinctive characters. I'm no fan of Incineroar, but I'm nevertheless glad that they didn't double dip with Decidueye, who is already represented in Pokkén.

@Lizuka I personally had hoped for Mimikyu or Marshadow. I guess someone thought the same thing and that's why they are just Pokeballs instead? Still, would have been nice to have a Mythical as a rep. And I feel both pokemon being part Ghost type would have made for very interesting movesets.

@nessisonett It's definitely a possibility.

@Samwise7
As much as I want an arms character (Min Min!) I feel that DLC characters are ones that fans wanted in the series and they are probably newer characters (sakurai had a cut off date) or ones who are third party with copyright stuff.
I'd imagine it may also be because people are actually paying for these characters, they'll put characters who people want, and arms are only a small group of people.
It would be cool if an arms character is added as a bonus or cheap free dlc.

@ThatNyteDaez marshadow would have been badass. One of the only Gen 7 Pokemon I actually liked, lol.

Unlike a lot of people I'm pretty happy with Incineroar in Smash. I got the sense that it was a grappler style character in the direct and I really liked that as it's a fighting style that isn't seen too often in Smash. Although beforehand it wasn't one of my favourite Pokémon it has actually entered my top ten favourites because of Smash, as it is my current main in Ultimate.

Honestly, I really hated all of the alola starters. Decidueye being the coolest design wise imo, I'd have pulled for him over Lion-cena any day. But I also had no idea he was in pokken as I've never played it before. Eh,. I'm excited to see what dlc brings.

Marshadow would have been by far the coolest gen 7 rep if you ask me. Cute, legendary, plus a ghost type with a really interesting diverse moveset would have been super awesome.

I would have liked an ARMS character in Smash. We have Shulk and a ton of Fire Emblem characters so I can live without a XC2 fighter.

I think they got the inclusion of Incineroar correct. The only other Pokémon that I can think of that would have made for an interesting character is Gengar. But could be easily substituted for King Boo; and King Boo probably would have brought more "character".

@Scottwood101 I think a season 2 isnt out of the cards. Just me looking at gaming trends.

@Moroboshi876 Bowser is one of the Star Children and this is reflected in how he's saved the day many times in the RPG's. If it's reflected in the mainline games, it's how tame his villainous leadership is combined with the participation in party and sporting events.

This makes me super sad because ARMS and Xenoblade 2 are among my favorite games for my Switch. And there are already approximately 3471982374091287 Pokemon in Smash Brothers, a series which I've never played (though I certainly would if I had the free time and/or didn't have other games to play).

I have never played a Pokémon game, so all of the comments filled with name drops of the characters are cracking me up!
From the outside looking in it’s like this conversation is in a different language. 😂

My girlfriend isn't gonna be pleased one bit about this. But, then again, Pokkén exists so thank Arceus for it.

@Hordak
It's way cooler from the inside, trust me.

I would much rather have had Incineroar in Pokkén and Decidueye in Smash. But you know, whatever. I ain't gonna touch Incineroar much. Really not a fan.

I understand why ARMS wasn't included. Enjoyed the game a lot more than I thought, but it did seem like a short developmental cycle for it.

Noticing the absence of those characters in Smash, my thought is Sakurai didn't know about it until Smash was in its final stages and ARMS was about to be released. Another thing, ARMS is still a brand new and hasn't been around long enough yet to be considered one of Nintendo's top IPs. Whenever, and if, ARMS 2 comes out, sells well and better than the first, it'll cement itself for sure.

I could see one of them coming in the form of future DLC, but I think they're using those fighter packs for other reasons. For example, Joker DLC seems to be serving a promotional vehicle for Persona Q2 and possibly rumored port of Persona 5. I'm feeling the Smash DLC may not have future Nintendo IPs, but rather using them as 3rd party promotion.

The lack of ARMS representation still stings a bit. There’s so much potential for a phenomenal and unique moveset, plus the music from that game is stunning. I get the reasons for it, but it still makes me sad. And it could’ve encouraged a larger audience to look into ARMS, as well. Whenever Springman’s assist trophy pops up, I get a little sad.

@Moroboshi876 Bowser's Inside Story proves he actually is.

Incineroar is one of my least favorite Pokemon from the second he was leaked. Decidueye, on the other hand, is one of my favorites.

Incineroar was one of my favorite designs and my first pokemon in Sun/Moon when it came out. I liked the inclusion though I haven't played Incineroar a bunch in smash.

please let us have a XC 2 character, loved the game and would love a character from it

They could have sold some additional copies of Arms if they included a character from there. Maybe in Smash Ultimate 2...

@Rafke But Smash is a good game, so the fact Arms is bad in your opinion means nothing.

I would like Chibi Robo, Captain Rainbow, Skull Kid, Tingle, Waluigi, Ryu Hyabusa and Isaac from Golden Sun as playable characters

So sad, we needed a proper single grass type starter. Still, I like how incineroar turned out.

Also I don't understand how come the planning needs tobe done way earlier on for fighters; legal issues and such?
Why not add them via DLC?

I am glad that they put Incineroar over that Decuwhatever the owls name is on the roster.

Serperior would have been fun to have as a Grass pokemon.

Well it's not too late for Rex,he better be one of the 5 dlc characters

Well Nintendo can't include every character from every franchise into Smash yet. Characters from these games aren't still represented as playable in Smash yet despite their assist trophy or cameo appearances in past games:

Mike Jones (Star Tropics)
The Mach Rider (Mach Rider)
Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heavens)
The Gunman (Wild Gunman)
The Heroes of Orange Star (Advance Wars)
Lyndis (Sealed Sword)
Lin (Advance Wars: Days of Ruin)
Lin (Xenoblade Chronicles X)
Micaiah (Radiant Dawn)
Fawful and Cackletta (Superstar Saga)
Hector (Sealed Sword)
Takamaru (The Mysterious Marasame Castle)
Isaac or Felix (Golden Sun)
Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong Country)
King Hippo (Punch-Out!!)
Ribbon Girl (ARMS)
Jill (Drill Dozer)
Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)
Black Shadow (F-Zero)
Geno (Legend of the Seven Stars)
Lance of the Elite 4 (Pokemon)
Team Rocket (Pokemon Yellow)
Saki Amamiyu (Sin and Punishment)
John Raimi (Geist)
Ruka Minazuki (Fatal Frame)
Wart / Mamu (Doki Doki Panic, Super Mario Bros. 2, Link's Awakening)
Aeron (Pandora's Tower) - He'll come in handy as a good replacement once Nintendo lose the Castlevania license to Simon and Richter Belmont in future Smash games.
Tom Nook (Animal Crossing)
Medusa (Kid Icarus)
Cranky Kong (the original Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Country)
Skull Kid (Majora's Mask)
Girahim (Skyward Sword)
Midna (Twilight Princess)
Princess Hilda (A Link Between Worlds)
Agahnim (A Link to the Past)
Professor Layton (Layton series)
Kamek (Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Story, Tetris Attack, etc.)
Klubba the Kremlin (Donkey Kong Country)
Saturos and Menardi or Agatio and Karst (Golden Sun)
Waluigi (Mario spinoff games)
Waddle Dees (Kirby series)
Rex (Xenoblade Blade 2)
Dillon (Dillon's Rolling Western)
The Omega Metroid (Samus Returns and Metroid Fusion)
Birdo (Doki Doki Panic, Super Mario Bros. 2)
Weavel (Metroid Prime Hunters)
Tatanga (Super Mario Land)
Space Pirates (Metroid series)
Dullahan (Golden Sun)
Stalfos (Zelda series)
Moblins (Zelda series)
Goombas (Super Mario series)
Koopa Troopas (Super Mario series)
Kent Akechi (son of Captain Falcon and pilot of the Falcon MkII from F-Zero: Maximum Velocity)
Ray MkII (Custom Robo)
Alex (Golden Sun)
Mallo (Pushmo, not to be confused with Mallow from Legend of the Seven Stars)
Starfy (Legendary Starfy)

@Rafke Agreed we shouldn't have characters from a bad game be in Nintendo's flagship title. Let's hope they sweep ARMS under the rug and forget about that failure.

@waluigifan1 I guess you haven’t even played ARMS.

I’ll give the man a break... I know he’s doing his best to make everyone happy with this title, and he’s doing an excellent job. I shouldn’t forget that because the one franchise I really want represented with a playable fighter isn’t represented. Here’s hoping we get an ARMS fighter in the next game! 😊

There’s honestly so much potential for a fighter beyond Spring Man here. Lola Pop could bounce back and forth during a shield! Dr. Coyle could turn invisible for a few seconds! Misango could have a Shulk-style power swap with his three masks! A guy can dream, no?

@waluigifan1 Right, because selling over 1 million copies makes you a failure

I'd love if an Arms character was featured in DLC. Fingers crossed for Dr Coyle!

@Samwise7 read between the lines... all dlc decided in advance= sakurai is so tired of working on these games he wasn’t interested in protracting the post-release schedule into some nebulous everlasting thing. to him the dlc were planned in advance less to satisfyy fans who will always have fresh demands, and more as a marketing tactic.

@retro_player_22 this kind of thing i s exactly why sakurai hates making these games. let him do what he thinks is interesting for himself. this is why the game is so high quality. if he added everything that everyone demanded the vision of the game would be diluted.

I think Spring Man, Mechanica, Byte & Barq or Min-min would have been cool additions. DLC maybe?

@Samwise7 That is a good idea... if it was for free. Since we're gonna pay for it, I actually prefer getting good/better characters

@The_Mysteron As Mii costumes, they would be cool.

"We didn't like grass starters, so we're going with Fire starters, cuz reasons."

Bit. Me. Seriously all the excuses he comes up with makes me salty over that. RIP grass starters. You'll always be the "Ooops smashed Down Special" of Pokemon Trainer.

And they removed Ray Mk from the ATs as well. My fandom is getting squatted on hard.

@thesilverbrick - ARMS, Sushi Striker and Rolling Western had some pretty good music for my tastes, really bummed none of that was at least added somewhere.

But hey, 30+ remixes of Pilotwings is cool, I guess.

I was really expecting Decidueye would made the cut, but I can take Incineroar, since he just has the personality.

For an interesting Grass-type representative, Sceptile would've fit the bill nicely.

Just once, I want to hear an honest interview from Sakurai. I don't appreciate how he's always making up lame excuses to simple questions.

Q: "With the DLC poll closed, Bayonetta was a surprising inclusion given that dozens and dozens of fan-run polls have shown her to be consistently low on the list of favorites to win. Why did you include her?"

Sakurai: "Well, you have to understand that we can only put in characters who we can think of unique and interesting moves for."

Q: "Then why did you include Lucina who is basically an echo of Marth? You couldn't think of any interesting moves for Simon Belmont?"

Sakurai: "... I'm... I've been working so hard. I'm too tired! No more questions!"

I am not sad to see no characters coming frI wom Xenoblade Chronicles 2. There are already way too many anime sword guys. I love Piranha Plant because it's something unique and wacky, and it fits better with the goofy Smash vibe.

I wish I could see the full interview translated. Even better, I wish Iwata was still with us so I could see the Iwata Asks for this game. Those interviews were treasure troves of game design tidbits that you rarely see from Nintendo.

I think I would have found Decidueye much more interesting.

" One of the main reasons behind its addition was the fact that, while it's well known, it isn't actually a hero, and it therefore hopes to add a little variety when compared to the Mario franchise's other stars."

Sounds a lot like Waluigi talk to me. >:L

I knew it, it was just some bad timing with ARMS and XC2. That was honestly the biggest hurdle I could think of-ARMS is pretty much Nintendo's premiere Switch title, and Sakurai's a massive Xenoblade Chronicles fan, plus the latter was already a franchise. There was nothing beyond Sakurai's approval holding them back, and I doubt he'd have trouble turning them into fighters.

@MH4 I'm slightly hopeful for an ARMS fighter for DLC. The character abilities and ARMS combination makes everyone except MAYBE Biff great for the game, and there's the theory of Spring Man getting put into the game, while his Assist Trophy is reskinned as Springtron. TBH, the exclusion of ARMS music was actually pretty jarring too. Hopefully they can be patched in, even if it's just the original tracks-there's too much good music, it'd be a crime if it was never included

@subpopz A bit more likely than ARMS in my opinion (despite my hopes). Xenoblade Chronicles was already a franchise and had established selling power. If Nintendo wanted to ensure people would grab the DLC characters, since it was the company itself that chose them, Rex and Pyra would be a safe bet since they'd probably assume XC2 would do very well (which it did, becoming the bestselling game yet)

@Andrew5678 That’s actually a great idea! Reminds me of Alfonzo and Toon Link.

Springtron: Leave it to me!

Still surprised Incineroar got in instead of Decidueye, but I think Incineroar would've had the more interesting moveset no matter what, so I'm fine with that. I'm hoping Rex gets in as DLC, along with an ARMS character, though since Spring Man's already an Assist maybe they could go with Ribbon Girl? Here's hoping that's the case instead of more nobodies like Joker. As for Piranha Plant, I think it's perfectly fine, though still would've preferred Petey Piranha instead. But some day, Waluigi WILL be playable. Some day...

@FNL TBH with 2 out of 3 of her games being Nintendo-exclusives, Bayonetta might as well be a Nintendo character at this point. Kinda just waiting for either Nintendo to buy Platinum Games or more likely create a Nintendo-Game Freak relationship/deal with them.

Honestly would have prefered the green robinhood owl over the red tony the tiger. Do not care for him at all.

@shoeses

Sure, I don't disagree at all. I just think his excuse for including her was utter BS. Especially given the fact that the fan polls showed King K. Rool, Ridley, Bomberman and Simon Belmont as more popular than her. Even worse for Sakurai is the fact that they eventually did add three of them to the game, so his argument that they "were't fully realizable" and "couldn't think of interesting movesets for them" doesn't hold water. And of course the smoking gun that data-mining showed Bayonetta's character slot was added very early into the ballot.

Just be honest with us, it's pretty simple. I'd have a lot more respect for him if he said "I'm obsessed with Fire Emblem so I put more FE characters in the game" rather than "oh, well, fans were requesting all these clones with swords and I just don't know how Simon Belmont could be an interesting character!"

@FNL Yeah, it'd be a lot better if he was more transparent. Seems more like Bayo & Corrin were just added for promotional reasons rather than anything else. (And why we'll probably see yet ANOTHER FE character added to promote Three Houses.) The excuses for not adding those characters are pretty bad, though I can understand not adding Ridley because he WAS a Stage Hazard, if it was actually his reason.

I thought he said in an interview before he was a big fan of FE though?

@shoeses

Oh yeah, he's said he was a big fan, but he's never put that forth as a reason for there being so many Fire Emblem clone characters in favor of others that fans have actually been requesting. Case in point, Corrin. He talked about how much the fans wanted Corrin in the game (while Corrin has/had fans, it wasn't to the extent of most of the truly fan-requested characters) which was false.
I will give him the fact that Corrin at least plays a little differently than the Marth/Lucina/Roy/Ike/Chrome clone character, though.

I just value transparency. I'd certainly respect answers like "I'm just obsessed and I wanted to put this character in", or "we wanted to promote the ____ game", or "we got drunk at our brainstorming meeting and wrote 'Piranha Plant' on the whiteboard".

if the fighter pass isn't 3rd party only i'd love for minmin to be added, they should make the actual arm not have a hit box so her punches count as projectiles like megaman's charge shot

@retro_player_22 Not sure why your comment was thumbed down. A lot of those would've been better choices than Incineroar. The Smash fanbase would've received Decidueye much better had he been picked.

#IncineroarWasAMistake

Not including ARMS or XC2 characters because of timing is just a bad excuse... It's not like Nintendo internals didn't know about the Games until they were released. Both ARMS and XC2 have been in development for some time. ARMS started probably 4 years ago and XC2 maybe even earlier (just my guess).

Gamers will never be satisfied huh?

It is simple... DJ Octavio!!!

Please..?

I'd have preferred Decidueye personally. I was REALLY disappointed when I saw his design. I am really sick and tired of bipedal fire type starter Pokemon. I hope Gen 8 bucks this trend and gives us something different.

@CupidStunt happy to hear somenone asking for Golden Sun players. I know is a ton of sword fighter out there but people have been waiting for them since melee before all the fe dudes except marth even exist. Anyway i prefer Felix before Isaac pretty obvious eh .

Still holding out for Min Min!

@Lizuka So you're saying the bizarre entries in the previous games (Mr. Game and Watch, ROB, and Duck Hunt) never should've been included either? Just accept that every new entry of the series is going to have one of those WTF retro characters included. They're still perfectly fine inclusions to the roster.

Also, Mimikyu would've been the lamest Pokémon in Smash save for Pichu. It's an interesting gimmicky monster with a nice role in the anime, but it would be rather boring to play as it. It would only be slightly better than playing as a Wobbuffet or a Castform. It's lucky enough to have made it as a Pokéball Pokémon.

@FNL Sakurai has been honest. Here, I'll fix his theoretical responses for you.

Sakurai: Well, apparantly those fan polls were wrong, since Bayonetta did indeed win the fighter ballot among feasable characters. Don't put too much stock in unorganized polls that work on small sample sizes compared to the official ballot. Also, please keep in mind that choices like Goku and Shrek are certainly not feasible.

Sakurai: You do recall that the echo fighters (or the equivalent in the previous releases) are included in the games only because they are so similar, don't you? They are essentially bonus characters that require very little development work compared to the other fighters. The games would not receive any other new characters in their places if they were not included. Otherwise, we do indeed value characters with more unique movesets. This wasn't always the case, since we did include a bunch of semi-clones in Melee and Brawl, but we have since taken steps to differentiate these characters more such as with Mario's FLUDD and now Link's remote bombs. I can't say why Ganondorf still plays too much like a slower, slightly more powerful Captain Falcon despite not even being in the same series, though.

@Lizuka Wasn't Piranha Plant in the new tennis game? Anyway, its value as one of the joke characters is still valuable despite not being as historically relevant. Heck, the Ice Climbers have only ever been in one mediocre NES game that hardly anyone would've heard of (as opposed to the extremely popular "Duck Hunt" game) had they not been included in Smash.

Pirahna Plant is just as interesting as Epona, and Magikarp would be impossible to design a decent moveset around.

Primarina would have been too good

@mazzel Sakurai is not an employee of Nintendo or HAL.And Xenoblade Chronicles was not anywhere near halfway finished when Sakurai began development (XC2 April 2015 Smash January 2016) and ARMS may've still been a Mario spinoff. And once Sakurai decides who gets in at the very beginning of development, the roster remains stagnant with the exception of echos.

@Silly_G
lol....Alolan Exeggutor? I can just imagine how big his hurtbox would be

@DeltaPeng : I think it would have made a hilarious addition to the roster, but given its ridiculous stature, would indeed be out of place in the game. Blacephalon would have been absolutely sick though. It's somewhat surprising that there are no clown reps in Smash.

@BulbasaurusRex

> since Bayonetta did indeed win the fighter ballot among feasable characters

She allegedly won the poll 'in Europe' but not in North America OR Japan. And data-miners had uncovered that they had ALREADY added a character slot for her before the polls even closed. So... there goes that lie of Sakurai's.

And following along with the "among feasable characters" excuse... I suppose we're just supposed to believe that King K. Rool, Ridley and Simon Belmont (who all received top votes on the Smash ballots) took Sakurai 4 years to think of movesets in order for them to be "feasable" and finally added?

I mean, if you want to believe anything Sakurai says, then more power to you, but the guy is definitely not transparent and honest. He just does whatever he wants and makes up an excuse later.

@Expa0 I've never liked decidueye either

I would have preferred Decidueye so much it's not even funny. This makes me sad. I wish I could erase Incineroar from my game.

@MH4 Agreed.... ARMS and an ARMS stage would have been really sweet.

@Sandro89 Incineroar is... UGLY? OMG! Really?
Incineroar is one of the most charismatic final form starters. His design is awesome and his expressions are amazing! He's my favorite gen 7 Pokemon and alongside Greeninja and Venossaur one of my favorite Pokemon ever.

I really think Sora (KINGDOM HEARTS) would be a really awesome character to play as in Super smash bros Ultimate. He would have a great move set. His final smash when he obtains the smash ball would be him and Donald, and Goofy having a tag team. But you know that won't happened because Some of the characters are Disney.

@Mrtoad didn't know it's not a Nintendo franchise. Anyway, I can't believe that he has no access to any of this info and even if it's unofficially. But it doesn't matter. In general, I think developers should do their thing and only listen to fans for details. If they would always do what fans want, we probably would see much less surprises on the gaming market. E.g. if Nintendo would listen to what fans want, we would probably never have gotten the Switch

@Moroboshi876 bowser was a hero to some lesser extent a few times, but it only really happens when someone else tries taking over the mushroom kingdom or kidnapping peach

My vote for King Rool in the Smash ballot wasn't in vain...even if I had to wait years before I could finally play him in Ultimate. But it was worth the wait: He's fantastic!

@Venus_Adept They could make them Echo Fighters

@TheHumbleFellow Incineroar is an awful choice that should've never left the concept art stage. And I know I'm not alone in holding that belief.

Decidueye and Primarina would've been received better overall by the fanbase.