I've already got my game pre-ordered, and barring absolute catastrophe, will have it picked up no later than tomorrow after work!
Though this analysis does show the seams of the Switch hardware a bit, on balance, I'm not only "okay" with what they accomplished, but actually quite a bit more than okay! I'm quite pleased, in fact! These performance figures are actually quite a bit -BETTER- than the last figures I heard in earlier builds, so, all I'm hearing is improvement. Besides, the little details everywhere make it an incredible presentation anyway, so I'm actually quite pleased!
It's showing more and more the performance gap between the Switch and the WiiU, and that that gap is quite a bit bigger than a lot of voices were fearing in the early goings. Far enough ahead of the WiiU to make me happy, and not far enough behind the XB1 to make me sad. Besides, if I really need absolute performance, I just leapfrog the consoles entirely and go to PC anyway. At least the Switch I can take with me!
So yeah, not only is this news not off-putting at all, but it only leaves me even happier than I was before seeing it....and I was pretty darn happy already!
Barring tremendously significant negative circumstances, which are utterly unforeseeable at the moment, I will have this thing in my grasp absolutely no later than the coming 6pm Central daylight time!
Yay!
To all the rest of you getting this game on launch day, I hope it's as awesome for you as it's been billed to be! Have a blast, guys and gals! I know I will be!
I very likely will be picking this up despite having it already on multiple platforms.
Now, here's the question: will the Switch version feature the Danny Baronoski original soundtrack, which is used in most versions of the game, or will it use the Scattle re-score as found on the PS4 and Vita versions?
While I'm perfectly content either way, as both are great soundtracks, I will go ahead and put myself with the [probably radical] minority and actually declare my preference for the PS Scattle re-score.
So, to the silliness about the Switch “never being to have a definitive edition of a multi-platform game”: as a PC gamer, I watch the PS4 fans attempting to lord their hardware supremacy over the Switch, and its fans, and find the whole affair..........absolutely adorable! Like watching a 5yr old try to explain why he’s the Master of the Universe to a 4yr old sitting in the same tire sandbox. You’re all sooooooooo damned keeeeeyuuuuuute!! Here’s a cinnamon disc!
A definitive edition has much more to do with what content is included than the level of graphical fidelity itself....but, but, 1080p and 60fps and.....STOP IT! I simply cannot handle this much cuteness! You’re gonna make me evacuate my bowels!
Oh, and lastly, that 4yr old may well silence that 5yr old, when he stands up and blasts off into space, leaving the other stammering as undisputed Master of the Sandbox.
What started out as manageable (keeping up with the Switch software library) began to feel like trying to cling onto the back bumper of a car that’s speeding away. Eventually you lose your grip and watch the car fade into the distance. But that’s okay! Every new game that comes out for Switch makes me happy, even if long gone are any hopes of my being able to keep even remotely up with the system’s library! It’s a great problem to have!
I will plan on buying this version of Doom on launch day, or as close to it as possible. Odds are I’ll go hard copy - but digital isn’t completely out of the question!
@Velting Oh, no worries! I never took it as directed at me. I was simply offering up my perspective as something of a remedy to what you were encountering - only without going so far as to refuse to level some measured criticism where I felt it was warranted.
Nope, we’re all good here!
In fact, i’m completely with you in my disdain for those who so freely “ejaculate” doom (not the game) and gloom on here. I mean, free speech and all, but it’s kind of a waste of one’s life, in my opinion. If I were ever to adopt such a fatalistic stance towards the system, do you know what I’d personally do? Stop hanging around on these sites, and go find something more rewarding and fulfilling to do. You know?
Anyway, I get the impression you’d probably do the same.
@electrolite77 Yes, that is entirely possible. And it would vacate my complaint if it were so. However, the impression I had was that the Undocked version also ran in solid 720p.
I guess we will see. This is one I’ll buy even if it is parity, though I’d be a lot happier if it wasn’t parity.
Of course, it’s a bit of a dubious “cure” for me if the parity is defeated not by the Docked mode going up from expectations, but by the Undocked mode going down, right?
@Heavyarms55 I get what you’re saying, but let me offer a counter-perspective: The PS4 version is actually the one that’s “worthless” to me, as it’s neither anywhere near close enough to what I can get on my PC to make it a worthwhile replacement for that, nor is it “better enough” than the Switch version to make me willing to choose it over the flexibility of what the Switch offers.
That the PS4 is “the middle option” of the three in terms of performance is definitely not in dispute. But whether that middle option offers anyone with all three platforms anything “of real value” in light of the other two versions is what I have serious reservations about.
Obviously, if all a person has is a PS4 or an XB1, then yeah, get Doom on it. Totally! And, I say if you have a Switch and a PS4 (or XB1), but don’t have a PC, then I say get both versions. But if you have a Switch and a PC and a PS4/XB1, then I say skip PS4/XB1 and get the other two versions. And I also say that if you have a PC, regardless of whether you have a Switch or not, to skip the PS4 and XB1 versions as well, for what do they offer that you don’t already get in a way better form on PC?
Anyway, that’s my take on the matter. And I’m coming at this as one who has a PC capable enough to run the game in 4K Ultra/Nightmare and still get high 50s fps so long as I keep vSync turned off, as well as having a PS4, an XB1, and a Switch. I have the game on the PC, obviously, plan to get it on Switch, and have no plans to get it on PS4 unless it becomes just ridiculously cheap. I do have it on XB1, but only because I received it as a gift, and I never use it.
@Velting It’s a bit “tl;dr”, but if you want to see a response that ultimately begins and ends quite positively, but still has a major gripe in the middle (meaning I’m neither being “jaded hater”, nor “blind fanboy” here), read my comment. As of this writing, it’s the one that appears directly above yours.
Big picture: I’m super happy here. But there’s still one aspect about all this that makes me VERY upset....and no, it’s not $60, nor 30fps, nor 720p - at least, not directly.....you’ll see what I mean if you read it.
Since I can play Doom in 4K Ultra/Nightmare on my PC and still maintain high 50s in the fps dept with vsync turned off, and play w/ KBM controls, it puts me in a position where I’ve got the “eye candy” / “precision controls” aspect well covered.
And as a result, I can say with the utmost degree of conviction, passion, and certainty that I would — — — MUCH— — — rather play Doom in 720p at low (or even a little less than low) settings using joycons with the ability to play on the big screen or on the go, than I would at [only sometimes] 1080p at medium settings using a PS4 or XB1 controller - even the XB1 Elite controller......a million, BILLION times over!
And so yet again, in what is becoming an almost 100% of the time refrain for me: between the power of the PC, and the flexibility of the Switch, the PS4 and the XB1 just keep slipping further and further into irrelevance for me. Console exclusives and free XBLG/PS+ goodies (and our using the XB1 as a Blu-Ray player) will serve to keep them from becoming COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY worthless to me......that, plus my completist “collectoarder” tendencies will prevent me from abandoning them completely.
But oh my stars and garters how the gap I feel between Switch and PC gaming being “gaming ‘up here’” (top level, “premier” gaming) and the PS4 and XB1 gaming being “gaming ‘down there’ (“second class citizen” gaming) only seems to grow wider and wider every time I get seemingly any new Switch news whatsoever (or to a lesser extent, new PC hardware news). It is just astounding. When treated as a pair, PC and Switch are just leaving PS and XB completely in the dust! And that’s not something I see improving all that much with the rise of Pro and 1X.
Now, universal gaming praise considerations aside, I do still have one serious beef with the news of Doom on Switch: parity between Docked and Undocked modes! I -HATE- it when I hear that! It makes me borderline furious...for real.
Regardless of how powerful (or weak) the Switch may or may not be, the one indisputable fact is that the Switch is meaningfully more powerful when Docked than whatever it is when Undocked. And so, when you see zero performance improvements whatsoever in Docked mode, it means that something along a spectrum ranging anywhere from complete developer incompetence to complete developer laziness (or of course, any conceivable midpoint mix of the two in between) is occurring, and that extra power is not being utilized. As Minecraft shows, it’s never impossible that a future update will unlock the extra power of the Docked system and fix this problem. And we certainly hope for that, but until then, it’s a complete waste of resources - resources that are only all the more precious for a heavy-hitting game like Doom, especially as the AAA developer world watching this with interest to gauge how viable their own blockbuster may be on the platform (bad time for a misstep)!
The analogy would be six months after the XB1X comes out, they release a major title that will only run at oXB1 spec, and take no advantage whatsoever of what the 1X offers. The only difference is they’re not wasting our $500 we would’ve spent on 1X to get the extra power, since we got the dock for free....but beyond that, it’s EXACTLY THE SAME.......(I’ll go ahead and say it)......— CRIME— !
Why not kick it up to 900p, with dynamic scaling? Or why not up the detail level a bit? Enhanced lighting? Something! Anything to separate it from the base Undocked experience! I hope a future update will do that.
And don’t tell me it’s not powerful enough to add....something. If Undocked runs at 40% of the Docked, then even if the current experience completely maxes the Undocked spec, that still leaves added bandwidth untapped when Docked. Use it. Utilize it. Give us both a portable and a console experience as this very system is designed to have, not just a portable experience that we can rebroadcast on a bigger screen and make it only look worse in the process.
I’m speaking to the developer directly now when I say this: you’re either lazy if you don’t.......or stupid.....or both. Which one is it, hmmmm?
Anyway, everything happy and unhappy I’ve said above withstanding, in this case, it doesn’t matter quite as much to me as with having the PC version for the big screen, I will probably do 90% of my Doom playing on Switch in Handheld mode anyway. Plus, there’s a good deal of grace to be offered Doom in my mind for being on the Switch in the first place as upon launch of the system, Doom was the game (in my mind) that was kinda the “oh man, wouldn’t it be great if....but yeah right” pipe dream for the system - a pipe dream that has now become (or is in the process of becoming) a reality after all. Vindication for the system, and quite possibly, the beginnings of the flood gates being opened to the AAA titles that heretofore have been, not necessarily “out of reach” of the system per se, but kept at bay, at least.
Anyway, I would still much rather play it on Switch than on PS4 or XB1, and am still quite happy to have it - even with its simply glaring flaw which paints the developer oh so horribly! Now fix the Docked / Undocked parity issue, and we’ll have something truly magnificent and [quote unquote] “perfect” on our hands here!
Yeah, I like this one better! But I can see the rhetoric and/or even swagger already from the #TeamWerewolf people: “TeamVampire sucks!” I mean, I can’t blame em. It’s such low-hanging fruit that you have to.
But we’ll take it, and beat them so bad it’ll make them howl at the moon! #TeamVampire, baby!!
@carlos82 Atari 2600 is where I started as well! I still can’t swear that the 2600 isn’t the most fun of them all! Terrible graphics, but even faster, smoother gameplay than the NES (and, I believe, the Arcade). I still have my Atari, though I don’t fire it up that often. However, whenever I do, I always make sure Mario Bros gets busted out!
I plan on buying this, and look forward to more like it!
Also, the differences between the Arcade and NES Mario Bros are both teeny tiny, and yet, huge! I started on Atari 2600 Mario Bros, then went to NES (HUGE difference), then went backwards to the Atari 5200 and Atari 7800 versions. But the Arcade version is still the Premier way to play.....let me at it!
.....why? What's going on down at the power plant that requires my spear? (Since that's what "Kraftwerk" means in German, in case anyone missed the joke).
That aside (sorry, I couldn't resist), this does look like a neat game! I'll have to check it out! The good news is that the Switch library is growing so fast, the bad news is I've totally lost my ability to keep up with it in terms of purchases. This is getting completely out of hand - in all the right ways!
Cheers!
P.s. Are spears even allowed on the Trans Europa Express? Vellicht wenn sie von licht gemacht? Eh, who knows?
It's the least suboptimal of a range of imperfect solutions to a problem created by a novel approach to gaming wherein we gain oh so very much more than we lose.
So, to the people who are losing their shizzy over this, I would urge them to maintain proper perspective in it all, and see it as nowhere near the boogie man that they're making of it.
Just bought it over lunch. In fact, my boss was on his way to the office to do my annual performance evaluation and came to Best Buy instead and performed the evaluation there so that it didn't interfere with my buying the game!
That's pretty awesome! And the strangest evaluations I've ever had, I might add! Not only was it surreal enough as it stood, but about 9/10ths of the way through it, someone started shooting off fireworks nearby. I mean, the evaluation was good, but not "warranting fireworks" levels of good!
In any case, I didn't bring my Switch with me, so I'll have to wait til tonight to try it. I do have my N3DSXL with me, but that doesn't work.....believe me, I tried. (J/K)
I do have a serious question for those who have played the game, though, and hopefully someone will be able to answer it:
I know this runs in 900p docked, rather than 1080p, which a I can deal with - especially if what I THINK I'm seeing in the pictures is actually true of the real game experience. What am I seeing? Well, it's not what I'm seeing at all, but rather, what I'm NOT seeing: and that's aliasing. The pictures make this look like it has nearly impeccable anti-aliasing!
If that's true, then that should make for an absolutely GORGEOUS game that more than justifies its drop to 900p resolution. Going by the pictures this looks WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more like a cartoony XB1 game than it does a WiiU game - and is just the latest thing, then, to further my belief that the system's true capabilities are closer to the top of the "WiiU-to-XB1" performance span than they are to the bottom like so many of us initially thought and even I initially feared.
Anyway, I can't wait to try this game out tonight, and should be able to say more then. But if someone can get back to me on the aliasing thing, that'd be awesome!
So, here's the details on the series I wrote (again, no longer online):
The magazine: "RetrogamingTimesMonthly"
The title of the series: "Fanboyism and the 16-bit Console Wars".
Pseudonym I wrote under: "Des Gamer".
Standout feature: I am probably the first - and last person in the history of the universe to use comparative studies of mid-sized US city skylines - particularly Des Moines, Omaha, Cedar Rapids, and Mobile as analogies for the software libraries of the SNES, Genesis, TG16, and Neo Geo.....very strange analogy....but surprisingly effective! Omaha was SNES, Des Moines was Genesis, Cedar Rapids was TG16, and Mobile was Neo Geo.
Does that sound like the series you read? Wouldn't that be "it's a small world" awesome if it was?
[edit] p.s. Genesis is my favorite of these software libraries, and Des Moines is my favorite of the mentioned skylines......of course, I'm a passionate Des Moineser, so there's that!
@Darasin @sdelfin To prevent the risk of "overly shameless self-promotion" and "overly beating a drum", I'll make it a point to avoid making repeated mentions of this, but Dar, if you're not completely ruined on the idea of FM forever by now, I'd recommend Episode 2 especially, but also episodes 7, 12 (not entirely FM), 13, and coming late October - episode 17 of my podcast Nerd Noise Radio. Avail on YouTube, iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Buzzsprout, Podbean, Blogspot, Twitter, Facebook, Google +, and Archive.org. Delf, as a fellow fan of FM, I'd also be interested in knowing what you think.
Okay, end shameless self-promotion! Back to your regularly scheduled programming!
@sdelfin So, I'm gonna be tied up for the next couple hours and unable to "really" reply. But I definitely would love to talk about Neo Geo and TG16!
Spoiler: we're in almost complete agreement. I think we might disagree just slightly enough to make it a little more interesting than "Yep." "Yeeeeeep." "MmmmmHMmMmmm."
@darasin, @sdelfin But the TV didn't negate that. Sure there was overscan that caused, say, a literal 240p to only have 224p of real-life usable space, but the higher resolution still resulted in more real-life usable space on-screen than the lower resolution equivalent, and no, that was not all consumed by the overscan area. It also, as I mentioned before, resulted in greater density in the sprite, where the lower resolution on the SNES resulted in more "diffused" sprites which look much worse to my eyes in general. In an overwhelming majority of cases, I would rather have tighter sprites that seem smaller to the eye, than bigger (to the eye), and "looser" sprites. But that's subjective on my part (just as the opposite on your part is also subjective).
Old CRT TVs weren't "fixed pixel" like our modern flat panel TVs are. So when a modern TV with a 1080p panel is displaying a 720p image, it's applying some multiplicative algorithm to upscale 720p worth of pixels (again, too lazy to math) to fill 1080p worth of pixels, resulting in somewhat of a smeary image. In the case of 720p to 1080p, the difference is subtle enough that the image still looks okay, but when your run old consoles with their usually sub-480p resolution on them, this fixed-pixel upscaling is one half of the equation on why they look just awful (the other half is missing scanlines that the game artists designed their images around). This is why, in addition to a handful of 1080p, and 720p TVs around the house and one 4K TV, I also hang onto a mid-90's 36" Toshiba 4x3 480i convex glass CRT "tube" TV where I play every console Wii and older. It's the only way that old games truly look "right".
On CRT, this fixed pixel thing isn't an issue - because the pixels aren't fixed. When the signal is 256x240, or 320x240, that's actually what you're getting. It's why both resolutions look crisp. The precise science of exactly how a cathode ray tube achieves this is totally beyond me, and is irrelevant to our discussion anyway other than to say that no, the added resolution is NOT wasted on the TV. Actually, if anything, the flexibility of CRT makes the resolution difference MORE significant because of pixel density and how it relates to how tight or how diffuse a character sprite looks.
And now to the matter of resolution vs color depth being "more or less valuable" for the betterment of the visual experience overall. This matter is the larger part subjective (which I'm really going to the greatest of pains to "throw out of the courtroom" here as much as possible) and the smaller part contextual. Secret of Mana probably benefits more from the colors than it would from the resolution where Sonic definitely benefits more from the resolution than it would the colors. So there is a little bit of context that we should keep factored-in. But for the most part, which one "makes for better visuals" should probably be factored-out because it's way more a matter of taste than anything.
However, there's one aspect of that question that we should definitely examine, and it's the matter of which is [quote unquote] "heavier" or "more taxing" or "more demanding" on a system's resources, which one requires "more power" from a system in order to pull it off: more colors, and more special effects, or higher resolution and more sprites? Answer? The latter. The latter is the one that requires "more power". The color counts are not really dependent on processing power, but just on the size of the database of available colors. You program in a color's code, and it retrieves it. Easy lifting. And the mode effects are not super power-intensive either. Consider the mode 7-centric F-Zero. The track that your cars run on is basically a character sprite itself that it zooms in at the proper angle to make it appear that you're riding on it. To put it super crassly, "you're a car, driving on the surface of another car". And because of the zooming and scaling, you don't even necessarily have to have a humongous sprite. Consider the boss battle in stage 1 of Jim Power. It's a mode 7 affair on the SNES with scaling and all of that, but it's ultimately a teeny sprite. The Genesis and Amiga versions don't feature that kinda scaling, but just use a giant character sprite. Which one is more power demanding (at least on the CPU)? The latter one. And add to that the fact that despite carrying the significantly heavier load, the Genesis is STILL faster and smoother running ....that's incredibly telling.
The SNES is actually pushing much less "real stuff", just with much greater abilities to "play with it". But for every SNES game that makes any meaningful use of the mode effects, there's what, 20-50 that don't? That number is a guess on my part, but the point stands, it's a feature and function that is unused more often than it's used. The higher resolution in the Genesis, the higher number of sprites, the generally bigger, more detailed sprites, on the other hand, are things that were used the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the time on the Genesis. Mode effects are the exception on SNES, not the rule. Resolution and sprites on Genesis are the rule, not the exception. And most of the Genesis games that do use the lower resolution and the fewer sprites are multiplatform games, so not at all a case where the SNES is rising to Genesis parity, but a case where the Genesis is stooping to SNES parity ("tying the Genny's hands behind its back", as I said before).
Anyway, what have I been saying all along? "The SNES is 'more advanced', and the Genesis is 'more powerful'". Both of these are facts, and hopefully you can see now how that is so. Which one yields the best results out of their side of the dynamic is, as I've also said repeatedly, almost entirely subjective (which we dismiss), and a little bit contextual (which we've already dealt with).
However, at the end of the day, it was never delf or I's goal to ever change your mind on which system you PREFERRED, or which audio and visual experience was more pleasing and satisfying....TO YOU. If you remain in a state of preferring the visuals and the sound of the SNES to that of the Genesis, we're not going to lose any sleep over that whatsoever. All we cared ever about, or at the very least, all -I- ever cared about was getting you to see that for every benefit the SNES brings to the table, the Genesis brings one as well, and that a position of "SNES is objectively, undeniably superior" is untenable. That they come out a wash in the end, or, as I said from my very first line in this entire conversation, "a stalemate"....that's really all I was ever trying to impress upon you.
Which one you "prefer" is irrelevant outside of the four walls of your house, just as delf and I's preference for the opposite is also meaningless. You see the Genesis graphics as gritty and colorless, and the sound as shrill and inaccessible. I look at the SNES visuals and see comparative nothingness hiding behind a thin veneer of awesomeness like Urkel stuffing his body builder outfit to look like The Hulk, and the sound, to me so very often sounds like a Casio coming from down the hall. But even so, at the end of the day, many times that thin veneer of awesomeness is still enough to do the trick, and not infrequently is the music in the hall still glorious. It's just, for me, even if it lacks all the sheen and gimmickry of the SNES, there is just so much more "meat on the bones" of the Genesis visuals behind the veneer, and such a greater velocity to them as well. And the music is crisper, cleaner, punchier, louder, bolder, and a lot more nuanced and fluid (even if it is confined to a much smaller piece of sonic real estate). And these are all virtues which I prize above the virtues offered by the other. You feel the opposite - and that's just fine. Just don't equate your personal enjoyment barrier to Genesis' FM soundscape with an objective inferiority out of it as a result - that's projecting, and is also a confusion of objective and subjective - or that the smaller color pallete and lack of mode 7 makes Genesis less powerful than the SNES when there's so much else going on to offset that....even if you personally get nothing out of that offsetting.
Your response to delf and Gunstar Heroes indicated that you missed his point completely. You said that even Treasure would, to paraphrase, "probably not be able to do the best SNES games on Genesis" when his whole point was to say that Gunstar Heroes, in the form in which we had it with all the sprites flying everywhere at breakneck speeds, in such a large play field (because of the resolution) and with larger, more detailed (albeit, more cartoony) character sprites which were also way more fluid and animated.....that such a game would've been UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE on SNES....that was his point. And he's absolutely, positively right! So many of the things that each system did would be impossible on the other - at least without MAJOR compromises and cut-backs. This is why I said that if we put DKC on Genesis or Vectorman on SNES that THE BOTH of them would be all the worse for it. Your responses seem to indicate that you well grasp the half of that equation that comports with your preferences, and you're not wrong insofar as you do....but your responses seem to also indicate a failure to truly grasp the opposite half of that equation which is every bit as much the truth. Now, again, those things may not matter to you PERSONALLY because you don't personally get anything out of them. But again, that's subjective and utterly worthless to the question at hand. Simply that they exist - and with pervasiveness is what we've labored to demonstrate.
Our mission in this running dialog, or again, -MY- mission in it has only been to get you to concede that it's a two-way street with this contest, not a one-way, and that declaring an absolute objectively superior winner here is a fool's errand because it's too give and take, it's too apples and oranges. That's all. I was never after anything more than just that. And comparing your first reply to me, Dar, with your final one to delf (or final as of the initiation of my writing this - a good deal of time has elapsed between start and finish and who knows what's been said in-between), it seems as if delf and I have succeeded in this aim. In your first response to me, you said [paraphrased] "I'm glad you love the Genesis so much", but the SNES is clearly the superior system". In your last response, you said [also paraphrased] "Which one is objectively best is unknown".....or something to that effect.....
......I dunno, delf, it sounds like our work here is done! Time to start talking about Turbografx!
But as has also been said - by me, by delf, and by others is that in our day and age, we can have both, and benefit from the vastly different treasures and wonders of both, which really only serve to compliment each other wonderfully. They're the "yin and yang" of gaming, and the universe is simply not complete without both. The only REAL losers here, and I can't put this into words strongly enough - these people are "effin LEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOSERS", L-shaped hand-gesture to the forehead losers"......are the ones who refuse to participate in both, clinging so desperately to their one or the other that they deprive themselves of the joys of the 2nd. THOSE are the losers here. Those and those alone.
One last thing, Dar: Mortal Kombat. You're asking about why the characters still seem so much smaller on the Genesis, and feel like the resolution difference is not enough to fully answer the question. You're right. Google a side by side which shows the full screen of both. Now, I'll draw your attention to two things:
1) where on the screen are the characters' feet? You'll notice that on the Genesis, the feet are almost all the way to the bottom of the screen, and therefore, the playfield proper occupies the bottom half of the screen. On the SNES, the feet are about 1/3rd of the way up the screen, meaning the playfield is the middle half of the screen, more or less.
2) The player's energy bars are much larger on the SNES, and therefore, extend further down from the top of the screen. By contrast, the energy bars on the Genesis version are really thin, and really "hug" the top of the screen.
Now let me ask you, what happens to the space between the top of the characters' heads and the bottom of the energy bars? On the SNES version, that space is very small. In fact, if memory serves, when you jump, you even enter into that space a little. On the Genesis version, that space between the tip of the head and the bottom of the bar is waaaaaaaay bigger, and you don't even reach it when being uppercut.
So this is why the Genesis characters seem so much smaller beyond what the resolution would account for when they are actually the same size. As I said right at the beginning of our talks about Mortal Kombat, it's not a size difference issue, it's a matter of forced perspective. Might I have wished they did it on Genesis more like how they did it on SNES? Yeah, maybe. The SNES approach feels a little "cheaty" to me, and the Genesis version's approach does allow for more background details. But it also makes the most important part of the visuals - the characters themselves seem a lot smaller (even though they're not). Yeah, the SNES approach here was probably the better one, all things considered. Oh, and as far as MK2 goes, I was simply trying to highlight how the characters in the Genesis version are actually bigger "for realsies". The Genesis version cuts corners elsewhere. But at the time, the question was "why didn't the Genesis version of Mortal Kombat make its characters bigger to offset the resolution?" and I was just simply trying to show that they did do so for the second go-round.
@Derasin Something just occurred to me: if you want a huge sample of FM music that I think is just awesome, that I might possibly use to attempt to warm your heart to FM sound, I would actually point you to Episode 2 of my own podcast.
I was an idiot and accidentally recorded the music blocks of episodes 1 and 2 in mono (Episode 3 and forward is in stereo). Nevertheless, Episode 2 still has one of my favorite music blocks of the 20 I've produced so far. And it's ALL FM-based music. Now, that doesn't mean it's all Sega Genesis music. Indeed, only roughly half of it is Sega Genesis. The rest are from all the other FM systems out there throughout gaming history. Most of these systems are technically superior to the Genesis (a couple are actually inferior), though the family resemblance with FM is so strong that to most people it may be believable if I tried to tell you it was ALL Sega Genesis.
Since I think hyperlinks are blocked here, I won't include one. But I'd just steer you to YouTube, and have you search for "Nerd Noise Radio - Channel 1 - C1E2: "Twisted Sine", and you should be able to find it.
@sdelfin, you might particularly enjoy this episode too!
I apologize for not having popups with track info. Those didn't debut until episode 5 (along with a better looking logo backdrop). But the track listing IS included in the video description (aka the "episode show notes"), and you can follow along that way.
@speedracer216 Obviously, eh? And which official list of indisputably best systems are you pulling that list from? You're either being tongue-in-cheek, in which case, rock on. Or you meant subjectively rather than objectively, in which case, you're certainly free to feel however you wish with no objections from me, only choosing to use the word "obviously" was unfortunate because it implies an objective assertion. Or you actually were trying to make an actual objective assertion, with no argument to back it up, and the "obviously" doing nothing but appealing to itself - if it's the latter option, then there's no "obviously" about it, until you can make a coherent case for it. Suppose you say "obviously SNES is better", and I say "obviously Genesis is better." Now what? Now we're at an impasse. In any case, before you can "obviously anything", you've gotta be able to make a coherent argument. I've made some coherent (if at the expense of being terribly wordy) arguments already on this thread that predict such an argument will not be forthcoming, or that if it is, it will not be persuasive.
@Sondheimist @StuTwo Those are fair posts. Objectively, the two stalemate. Subjectively, it's in the eye of the beholder, and largely depends on which parts of the hardware or software benefit of each system appeals more to your personal tastes and interests.
When it comes to software libraries, this is way too general of me to apply to everything, but just speaking in sweeping terms, I feel the best way to summarize the difference between the major software titles of both platforms is SNES games are more "telescope" and Genesis games are more "microscope". Now, what do I mean by that? SNES games seem to be more story-driven, long-road, big world epics that span vast spaces, but seem to be so much simpler and basic and plainer in terms of what's actually happening on the screen at any given moment. Genesis games seem to have much bigger, more action packed, more detailed "right in front of you" vistas, in smaller, more segmented, more linear "worlds". So, one approach puts more emphasis on the big picture, while the other approach puts more emphasis on the small picture.
Again, examples of possible exceptions will abound on both sides, and again, I don't think that one approach is inherently better or worse than the other. But this difference reflects in Sonic vs Mario, Metroid vs Shinobi, Zelda vs Golden Axe or Altered Beast, or Streets of Rage, or whatever other games we want to pit against each other. The SNES games tend to be bigger worlds made up of smaller scenes, where Genesis games tended to be smaller worlds made up of bigger scenes.
Though looking at the history of the franchises, I prefer the Mario universe to the Sonic universe big picture (by a LONG SHOT) - and Zelda and Metroid are my two favorite franchises in history - period - both with excellent showings in the 16-bit......I still find myself preferring the offerings provided by the Genesis.
Perhaps it's worth noting here that I don't feel like SNES particularly faltered at all. It's an amazing system with an amazing software library perfectly in keeping with the rest of Nintendo history. Instead, I feel like the bright and shining sun of Nintendo very briefly had the Sega moon pass in front of it during the 16-bit generation (to use a timely analogy for Americans).
Now, whether you agree or disagree with that, does that at least make sense?
@BulbasaurusRex you'll have to see some of the earlier conversations, but even the graphics and sound are not so cut and dry. You talk about Genesis and SNES being give and take, and I say "amen and amen". But I would maintain that even the graphics themselves, and even the sound itself are give and take as well. I won't re-make the whole argument here, but see my earliest post for a pretty nice summary of the matter. Also, you'll be able to glean a little of that difference from what I intend to say to some of our other conversation partners below. But in short, I think saying either system categorically has better graphics or better sound is untenable. I would never go so far as to advance either of those assertions in favor of Genesis....but I would GLADLY go so far as to deny them in favor of SNES. Read my earlier posts to learn more.
@sdelfin @Darasin Okay, finally back to you guys! So sorry it took me so long to reply. I had to put it down for work, and for the family commute this evening, and am just now at liberty to pick this back up.
I think I can offer a different perspective on the resolution and sprite size thing. I actually prefer the sprites in higher resolution. When they're in low res, they look stretched, and maybe "smeary" isn't the right word, but "diffuse" maybe? It's the same or less detail spread over a larger space, so you're going to have that effect. You're just gonna. Also, aliasing tends to be much more apparent in the SNES iterations, in part because higher resolution always improves aliasing when all else is equal, and in part because the softer Genesis AV output hides some of that, and where color fringing isn't an issue, that softness creates a false, but sometimes quite convincing illusion of an even greater resolution advantage than there actually is. The sprites on the Genesis, even when they're dot for dot equal, and even when they [falsely] appear to be smaller on the screen are still tighter, and denser in their detail, making them look less diffuse and - in my opinion, BETTER. I like the sprites better on the Genesis Wolfchild, Lion King, TMNT, Bram Stoker's Dracula.....and (gasp) possibly even Mortal Kombat 1.
The Genesis MK sprites are much lower color, which does work against them admittedly. But they are otherwise identical sprites, dot for dot. They are the same size on a pixel graph, and everything. The SNES versions look so aliased and diffuse, where the Genesis ones look tighter and less aliased.
The point is, it's easy to understand why one would prefer the look of the more colorful SNES MK sprites, and why one would find their "illusion of 'biggerness'" as also being advantageous. But there's a counterperspective out there that I myself hold which says that the illusion of bigger without the necessary pixels to fill in the blanks is almost NEVER better, and not better in any of the cases we've discussed here. So, on the subjective front, we find ourselves at an impasse.
But what's the point that I've been laboring this whole time? Our subjectivity doesn't really matter outside of our own living rooms. You preferring the look of the SNES Lion King sprites doesn't make them better, nor does my preference of the Genesis sprites. Filling a higher or lower percentage of the screen being "more desirable" or "less desirable" is subjective in the context we've been discussing it, and therefore, ultimately meaningless to the question of the objective question of superior or inferior hardware.
Were we to look at it objectively, we ask these kinds of questions instead: 1) How many pixels are in the sprite? Same. It's a tie. 2) How many colors are used in the sprite? Presumably higher on the SNES (though not necessarily so in all cases). Advantage SNES (where applicable). 3) How many pixels are on the screen in total? 320x224p vs 256x224p (too lazy to do that math). Advantage Genesis. 4) Which one is carrying the "heavier processing load"? Answer: Genesis. 5) Is Genesis handling the load at lower performance, higher performance, or equal performance. Answer: Higher. Faster, more fluid, less slowdown. Summary: Higher processing load at faster, more fluid, less slowdown performance vs higher color and cleaner AV output. Which one takes that? I'll leave that question open. But those kind of questions.....if I can be brutally frank....are the ONLY questions that REALLY matter here, at the end of the day. Everything else is us just waxing preferential, all of us [QUITE FIGURATIVELY SPEAKING] engaging in "group masturbation".
It would be easy for me to share tracks and graphics that push me towards my "subjective" preference of the Genesis. But trying to keep us on track in our quest for objectivity, I would only share stuff that highlights actual objective advantages of the Genesis. To that end, rather than focusing on music that I particularly love, and hoping you'd be inspired to feel the same way, I would instead, only want to share things that are crisper, cleaner, louder, punchier, beefier, more [quote unquote] "hi-fi" than their SNES counterparts....or else....more fluid, more dynamic, more flexible, demonstrating greater live morph, and less "woodenness" than your typical SNES fare. Things that are objectively better in those regards, not things that just subjectively tickle me - though a great many of the tracks that I'll highlight have the added benefit of doing both!
To that end, I'd want to echo delf's recommendation for Shinobi 3 and SOR 2. I'd also point you to Sonic 3's Hydrocity Zone act one. Though you may well prefer the arrangement on the SNES version of the Bram Stoker's Dracula soundtrack (and my blessings if you do), I don't want you to listen for preferred arrangement (which is subjective and irrelevant), or even the broadness of potential instrumentation (which is an objective SNES advantage that delf and I have already freely admitted). Instead, I would want you to listen for all the things I mentioned above as objective benefits to the Genesis version. You'll hear them. You'll also hear them in the two versions of the Mortal Kombat soundtrack. You might prefer the soundscapes the hazier SNES version offers (and maybe the SNES version even fits the mood of the game more appropriately). But in terms of raw "oomph" factor, you'll see that Genesis carries the day.
At the risk of sounding waaaaaaaaay colder than I intend to, I don't really care which one you "prefer", all I want to face you with is the fact that for each advantage the SNES sound system offers, there's a counter-advantage to the Genesis sound system. That's it.
In terms of the greater fluidity of the Genesis sound system, I'm actually going to refer you to a couple tracks that most would find to be unpleasant "noise" tracks. The purpose isn't to get you to enjoy the tracks, but to just see how much more fluid sound production is on the Genesis. I'd refer you to "The Fire Dragon" (Fire Dimension 2) from Chakan the Forever Man, and "Mojo's Future Crush" from X-Men. Now go listen to, oh, say, "Aquasphere Surface" from Xardion on SNES. Now, you may vastly prefer the sound of the latter - and that's fine. But even still, you should still be able to see how much more wooden the sound is on it, how it's very obviously made of small clips of sound reused over and over, rather than the sweeping ooze that is the Genesis sound generation.
Also, notice how when there is richness to SNES sound, like there is in that Xardion track how it comes in the form of mud in the bass. Compare that Xardion track to "Cycle 1" from Streets of Rage 3, or "Spin on the Bridge" from Streets of Rage 2, "Alien's Den", or "The Hard Corps" from Contra Hard Corps, or either Sisyphus or Casey Jones stage from TMNT TF, and observe just how much tighter and crisper, cleaner, and punchier the bass is on the Genesis. To cross reference, go back to Simon Belmont's Theme from Super Castlevania IV for muddy bass on the SNES (as well as how wooden the instruments are, and how much flatter and less crispy/dazzling the high and mid instruments are). For cross reference on how much crisper and dazzling the Genesis highs and mids are, stay with Castlevania, but jump over to Bloodlines. Listen to the Password screen. So much brighter, and more dazzling, and crisper. Also, the voices are much more fluid and less wooden. Even on tracks that are thin and reedy on the Genesis, such as "Grass Land" from Burning Force or "BGM 2" from Arnold Palmer Golf, the tracks are still crisper, brighter, and more dazzling.
Look, the point isn't to get you to prefer the Genesis sound, nor is it to attempt to argue that Genesis sound is holistically objectively superior to SNES sound. I still maintain that they're that stalemate, that draw. But while virtually everybody and their grandmothers are aware of the ways in which the SNES sound system is better (and it's TRULY better in those ways), not everyone recognizes or appreciates the ways in which the Genesis sound system is better than the SNES (and it too is TRULY better in those ways). I do hope that I've at least accomplished that much.
As far as graphics, games that use high resolution as well as sprites that are more detailed, and "bigger enough" to still look bigger even though the resolution is higher are also replete. Shinobi 3, Alterred Beast, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage 2 and 3, Sonic (obviously) even things like Puggsy, Sword of Sodan, X-Men and especially X-Men 2, and on and on and on and on and on. We were talking about Mortal Kombat. Well, compare full screen stills of Mortal Kombat II. The sprites are actually BIGGER and more detailed on the Genesis version, even AFTER the resolution thing. Once again forced perspective comes into play, because the characters "stand" lower on the screen in the Genesis version, and the health bars are smaller and pushed higher up to the top. But still, with bigger sprites and bigger energy bars, the forced perspective effect is much less strong for the sequel.
Why didn't they make the sprites bigger on MK1? Dunno. But it wasn't a hardware limitation. As delf said, the MK1 port was rough around the edges. Had they placed them on the screen where the SNES characters were, it wouldn't have really mattered because the forced perspective thing would go away. Want examples of sprites flying everywhere, just pick a shooter or a run and gun with your eyes closed and you'll find one. Gunstar Heroes, anybody? Also, consider how blazing fast and action packed that game is.
Of course, just because the Genesis COULD and USUALLY did blow way past SNES in terms of sprites and character sprite size doesn't mean it ALWAYS did. Both the Genesis Contra and Castlevania games used smaller, and less detailed character sprites than their SNES counterparts for no apparent reason. Just because you CAN outperform the other system doesn't mean you're ALWAYS gonna. Not every SNES game blows past its Genesis counterpart in terms of on-screen colors, for instance. Not every SNES game uses mode 7. And so on.
The point is that the rule is well established. SNES owns colors, special effects and clean AV. Genesis owns large, detailed, fast moving, plenteous sprites and amazing animations. And both of these can be said objectively and irrefutably. As I said in my initial comment, we treat "more advanced" and "more powerful" as inseparable propositions, but I think SNES vs Genesis conclusively disproves the inseparability of the two, as I think those summarize the differences between the two systems PERFECTLY! SNES is "more advanced", whereas Genesis is "more powerful".
Which one ultimately yields better results out of that distinction is pretty much entirely relegated to the realm of the subjective (where I'm really trying very hard NOT to go), but I hope I've at least demonstrated for you that not only in graphics and processing power, but also in sound, Genesis is "more powerful". I don't need to demonstrate that SNES is "more advanced" in these ways......because everyone already knows that. I need instead to only prove what is less widely realized, and I hope that that's what I've accomplished here tonight.
But all this is really all to all our advantages today as we can reap the benefits and enjoyment of both. Consider: BOTH Donkey Kong Country - AND - Vectorman would probably have been worse had they been on the other platform.
Cheers!
P.s. I've been avoiding PC Engine / Turbografx16 talk deliberately because I wanted to fully flesh out the Genesis / SNES thing, and then, if we weren't all burned out on the conversation by then, bring the TG16 in afterwards. BTW: This is exact same way that I dealt with it in my articles. The first several installments dealt directly with SNES vs Genesis, and then once that ran its course, I brought in the TG16 and compared it to both of them.
p.p.s. I would not mind at all sharing the articles with you. The site they were on has been taken down, and I don't believe it's back up. So, do this: find my Nerd Noise Radio FB page, message me on there, tell me you're Dar (or Delf.....or anyone else who's interested) from the NintendoLife comments section, and I'll send you the word.doc containing all the installments, plus a few other bonuses.
@Darasin I'll refer you back to my main comment on this article for but a brief summary of the tech analysis of the two systems. And if you'd like the full treatment, gimme an email and I'll email you the entire 60 pages. The idea that the SNES is objectively superior holistically is simply untenable.
To your example of Mortal Kombat and other multi-platform games, take another look. The sprites do appear - at a glance - to be much bigger on the SNES, and they do because they fill up so much more of the background. Take another look at the background, though. The SNES background is letterboxed, occupying only a portion of the screen. The Genesis background? Fills the whole screen. It's a matter of forced perspective.
As it concerns supposedly smaller assets on other Genesis multiplatform games: what happens to the individual icons on your computer's desktop when you raise the resolution? They appear to get smaller, yes? But are they actually getting smaller? No, they're still 64x64 pixels (or whatever the case may be). They're the same size. There's just more room for more icons and 64x64 pixels takes up a smaller percentage of the whole. That's what you're noticing on Genesis and misinterpreting it as smaller characters. That's how I interpreted it in the 90's as well - until I knew better. A great example of just what I'm talking about is Wolfchild - or hell, Mortal Kombat. Go give that those another look.
Even more interesting are games like Bram Stoker's Dracula, where the character looks similarly sized on both, but when you do direct sprite comparisons on them, the sprites are actually bigger and more detailed on Genesis. That's quite common. Hyperstone Heist / Turtles in Time is another such example. Then you have examples where the sprites are WAY bigger on Genesis, like Fatal Fury, or.....I almost feel bad about bringing this one up, but Samurai Showdown.
But even then, discussing multiplatform games is kinda silly when discussing comparative hardware to begin with, because they usually play to the lowest common denominators. Consider this: PS3 is documented as being more powerful than XB360. But 99% of the time, the multiplatform games looked better on XB360. Why? Because the XB360 hardware architecture was a more standard design where PS3 was crazy weird architecture. So rather than wasting all this time and money getting the most out of the PS3, they just did a hack port to meet minimum standards and off you went.
So, in the case of the 16-bit generation, whichever system the game was originally designed on is almost without fail going to be the better looking/sounding game. Most of those games were designed around SNES. Plus, in order for the two to be playing in the same ballpark, a number of key Genesis advantages had to be surrendered to bring it down, yes, DOWN to SNES level. Basing your understanding on SNES vs Genesis hardware on the multiplatforms, then, is like tying the hands behind the Genesis's back and then having them fight, and then trying to say that it's because the SNES is the better fighter. It really is THAT ridiculous. Go compare console exclusives instead and then you'll see the benefits of both systems on display. Huge, detailed characters, and/or huge, detailed backgrounds and/or sprites everywhere - and all of it running at a faster, smoother, more fluid pace than SNES. Then it becomes impossible to say "well this one is clearly better" because they both outdo each other in so many contrasting ways.
Now, as far as sound, they both sound very artificial (so we can drop that as an argument against Genesis when they're both guilty). But they're artificial in different ways. The SNES samples pre-recorded sound clips of various things, but the samples are so small, that they are not only really lo-fi, but also so short that they don't allow for much nuance. It's much more wooden. And it's muffly due to forced Gaussian interpolation audio anti-aliasing. The Genesis is an actual live synthesizer, so it's going to have some limits a sampler won't, but it will also have a freedom that a sampler using very small samplers won't. Listen to the guitar solos in stages 1 and 3 of Wolfchild, and pay attention to just how much those sounds morph in the sustain. It's very fluid, very dynamic. Or, even though they're generally ugly sounds, listen to how mutable and flexible and fluid the sound effects are in Chakan the Forever Man. Due to the RAM/ROM constraints of the SNES and the really small samples it used as a result, that kind of this was just not feasible on the system.
This is why I called SNES sound like legos and Genesis sound like Play-Doh. You can truly sculpt your sounds on Genesis in a way that you cannot on SNES. And it shows! And for what it's worth, the Genesis is just much louder when all variables are equal producing, in the final analysis, something that just comes off as something with just so much power behind it. The SNES seems kinda limp by comparison.
Whether you personally prefer the sound of soft, muffly sampling on SNES or the raw synthesis of the Genesis is a matter of subjective preference, not objective fact. If you vastly prefer the SNES sound to the point that Genesis sound sounds silly to you, then you probably don't like a lot of 80's pop, or the sounds of the arcade or 70's avant garde electronics either, but that's okay. It has no bearing on the actual hardware merits of the system one way or the other what sounds you like or dislike. It's just you preferring what you prefer. I vastly prefer the sound of the Genesis. Now, I'm not so blinded by fanboyism, though, that I certainly can't think of several examples where I break from that norm and prefer the sound of the SNES. But as a rule, I hugely prefer the Sega Sound.
My point is simply that when weighing objective pros and cons, neither your preferences nor mine mean a damned thing. They're just a distraction.
I've given a small sliver of the case for a sonic stalemate here in this reply to you, a bigger sliver in my original comment, and have upon your request my 60-page series of articles that goes as granular as I am personally capable of going. I would refer you to those. Also, in the most obvious cases of the SNES version of a soundtrack being clearly better, what's the common thread? The game was designed for SNES and then hack ported to Genesis later. You've just tied the Genny's hands behind its back again.
Look, my argument is not that "Genesis is clearly objectively superior to SNES". There are too many SNES advantages for that to be tenable. My arguement instead is that "SNES is -NOT- clearly objectively superior to Genesis". There are too many Genesis advantages for that to be tenable. They are a wash, a tie, a stalemate, a draw, they brick wall each other. They're apples and oranges. Will you attempt to declare one of those objectively superior? I say you have equal luck with apples and oranges as you do with Sega and SNES. The level of tech analysis in your arguments indicate that you are approaching the matter and able to analyze the data in the year 2017 at age whatever you are at more or less the exact same level that I did in the year 1993 at the age of 13. My best advice: go back and take a closer look, and you may find yourself blown away - as I did. It was like having scales fall out of my eyes. Only beware: what is seen cannot be unseen!
@Krillin_ I was the opposite. I grew up with both systems, but was Pro-SNES. But a lot of that had to do with old loyalties carried over from the NES for one, and not knowing how to properly interpret the spec sheets for two, coming to the belief that the hardware was very lopsided in favor of SNES.
In the early 2000's when I was in my early 20's, though, and I began to understand the specs better, I began to see things in a different light. Part of this was through seeing and hearing things I had missed before, and part of it was through allowing myself to believe as true things that my eyes and ears were telling me all along, but I had just chocked up to my own craziness, since after all, "the spec sheet can't be wrong", right? Well, right, it can't be outright wrong. But that doesn't mean it can't be extremely misleading.
Today, I maintain most unwaveringly that the two are a stalemate hardware-wise. That they're just too "give and take" for the idea of an overall winner to be declarable. Not that they're anything alike, but that they come out a draw in the end. I won't re-make the argument for that, but if you wish to hear a summary of it, see my initial comment further down the comments thread.
But that's me speaking objectively. In terms of subjectivity, just my own personal tastes and preference, the way I worded my intro undoubtedly blew the punchline, but I gradually became Pro-Genesis. And I remain so to this day. And not just in the overall either, but down to the graphics, the sound...everything! While I still love SNES, call it one of my favorite systems of all time, consider it utterly indispensable, and genuinely wish I could be as neutral and impartial subjectively as I am objectively, I just can't. I'm #TeamGenesis all the way now.....and it's no longer even a close one.
@sdelfin oh shoot! I meant to say this in my last reply, but didn't:
I came THIS close to going into the SNES sprites thing. I did go into it in my full series of articles, but felt like it might be a little too "into the weeds" when trying to summarize, especially since such thing falls under the general umbrella category of "Genesis is better with sprites", which WAS included in the comment.
But I'm very glad you lit on that issue as it's one that's so often overlooked, when it's a very significant factor.
@sdelfin Excellent! Thank you very much for the compliment, and glad you liked what you read. There's such a big risk of "tl;dr" when one makes a long post like mine, so I'm honored that you took the time to engage. I'm also glad to chat with another "TeamBlue", and I will gladly track down your comment and read it!
It's all the subtle and overt give and takes that makes the contest so fascinating and tirelessly interesting and engaging for me. How boring would it be if we could just simply say off the cuff that the one or the other is better. No, I like it much better this way. And as others have highlighted, the two systems actually complement each other really quite well, don't they? Who REALLY wins here? The one who has both - ESPECIALLY the one who grew up having both and got to really "live them out".
We got our SNES for Christmas 1992 (I would've been 12 at the time and just about to turn 13). The Genesis didn't come that much later, on a random September day in 1993. I was actually quite pro-SNES back in the day. But I also didn't know how to properly interpret the spec sheets. The spec sheets create the illusion of a very lopsided contest, when the reality couldn't have been further from that.
As I began to really understand the specs in the early 2000s, as an early 20-something, along with it began to come a change in perspective, in part, noticing things I hadn't noticed before, and in part, allowing myself to accept as true the things my eyes and ears had been telling me all along, but that I had previously just chocked up to my own craziness, since, after all, "the spec sheet can't be wrong".
By the late 2000's the "transformation" was complete, and I preferred Genesis across the board, graphics, sound, games, design, interface, "persona"....everything. And you know what? I still do. I run a video game music podcast (called, unsurprisingly, "Nerd Noise Radio"), and I do try to represent both systems with about equal fairness. But I know that, just personally, I'm loving life more when Genesis and PC Engine music is playing. That's more my "me time".
Actually, this creates something of an interesting tension for me as a gamer - as in the current gen, I'm so passionately pro-Nintendo, such a rabid proponent of especially the Switch, and to a lesser degree, the 3DS (I'm also a big PC gamer as well) and outside the 4th and 5th gen, and maaaaaaaaaaybe the WiiU, Nintendo has either won or tied for the win in every generation for me. Big picture, I'm Nintendo first, but then comes the tension in that in the 16-bit era - the era that I STILL consider to be my favorite, most important era, not only does Nintendo not win that era for me.....but it even comes in dead last! A weird tension! I'm such a Sega kid - and yet, such a Nintendo guy as well.
I wrote 60 pages on this subject in 2012 over the span of 8 articles. I hope you'll forgive a 1 1/2 page long comment that while insanely long for a comment is still an amazingly concise summary of those 60 pages!
Here we go!
The SNES had distinct hardware advantages and distinct disadvantages relative the Genesis and vice versa. And this is true across the board, graphics, sound, gameplay, everything. I think to attempt to definitively declare an absolute winner will not yield a satisfactory conclusion, and will probably leave just as much controversy in its wake as existed before - if not even more so, as one thing that I'm sure this will do is reignite the debate. I'm hoping very strongly that this panel will be wise enough to not attempt to create sensation by forcing a conclusion for winner.....when quite simply.....there isn't one....
That's not to say it's pointless to discuss the hardware, or that it's impossible to make distinctions between them including micro-proclamations ("better at X", "worse at Y"). In my opinion, comparative hardware studies from the 4th generation may well be the very single most interesting discussion in all of video game history - bar none! Add in PC Engine / Turbografx16 and things get even zestier! (I'll leave PCE out for the purposes of this comment, though).
So if my position is an ironclad commitment to an objective stalemate (draw, tie, wash....pick your term) between the two systems in terms of overall hardware, but that distinctions can - and SHOULD be made between them, what kind of distinctions would I draw? This:
I think we tend to treat the terms "more advanced" and "more powerful" as synonyms - or at least as inseparable propositions, as in "if it's more advanced, that means it's more powerful", or "if it's more powerful, that means it's more advanced." Well, I think the SNES be Genesis debate proves that the two are not necessarily inseparable after all as if I were to super-simplify, I think that the "advanced" / "powerful" divide is precisely where this debate comes down to. SNES is "more advanced" than Genesis, and Genesis is "more powerful" than SNES. And I think both assertions are incontrovertible. SNES uses more forward-thinking technologies, but skimps in raw power to keep price competitive, where Genesis doesn't go for anything flashy, but is a beast!
The results of this? Well, this is not a comprehensive list at all, but the major points are that SNES graphics are crisper, cleaner, more colorful, and support a number of special effects that Genesis didn't, such as transparency, and the full suite of "modes", including the world famous "mode 7". And the Genesis in return, ran in higher resolution, with larger, more detailed, more simultaneously plenteous sprites, and much more fluid, faster-paced animation. SNES visuals, one could argue, were more polished, but there was so much less going on in them, smaller, less detailed, more woodenly animated character and environment sprites, and moving at a more plodding pace at that. So, we see "more advanced" vs "more powerful" playing out here and holding each other to a draw.
As far as the sound, the SNES featured an 8-channel ADPCM sampler which was much more forward-thinking than the tag team of the 6-Channel FM synthesis chip and 4-channel PSG chips found in the Genesis - the latter one being a carryover from the 8-bit Sega Mastersystem. And it had it's definite advantages: a sampler can sample anything, string and orchestra sections, guitar and bass, even synths. It could go anywhere, be anything.....well, sorta. The SPC700 sampler chip itself wasn't that limited, but the rest of the system held it back. Between RAM and ROM limitations the system could really only traffic in really small, low bitrate samples, and then pair that with forced anti-aliasing on the SPC700, and a simply terrible reverb, what you ended up with was wooden and/or muffly and/or sizzly lo-fi sounds. It was like building sound out of legos. Despite the SPC700's channels being capable of more hi-fi sounds than the YM2612, because of all the other restrictions, the real-life results were actually the polar opppsite. Also, yes, the SNES had way more audio RAM than Genesis. But a sampler requires soooo much more memory than FM and PSG that SNES starves where Genesis doesn't. By contrast, Genesis was more limited to just what could be done with four sine-waves per channel over six channels, one of which could be sacrificed for a low-grade sampler channel, three square waves and a white noise channel. But it was completely unfettered in such pursuits. Besides, four-operator sine-based, eight algorithm FM is waaaaay more liberating and expressive than a lot of people think. In the right hands it could be used to amazing effect! In fact, in the hands of chiptune sceners in recent days, it's even succeeded in convincingly replicating SNES sampled sounds just using FM, and retaining the Genesis's advantages of being much more fluid, crisper, punchier, louder, fatter, more "raw", and "bigger" sounding! If making sound on SNES is building with legos, Genesis sound creation is play-doh. You can have amazing mutations and variations and morphing, sweeping sustains that could theoretically be matched by a sampler if the sample file was big enough and long enough to include all that, but which file sizes were not feasible on the SNES. So even here, we can see "more advanced" vs "more powerful", and see that though vastly different, even here they offer similarly quality experiences.
In the end, the SNES is "the gentleman" and Genesis is "the beast". But which one is BETTER? Overall, as I said from the start, neither one is. They're the ultimate stalemate. In micro, yes, I do believe we could say that the SNES is probably better suited for things like RPGs and special-effects fests, and Genesis is better suited for things like arcade action, shooters, brawlers, and intense platformers. But overall, the question of which is "better" can really only be answered in the realm of individual subjective personal preference. They offer such starkly different experiences. Which one is more to your tastes? Which one is stronger in the areas that matter most to you? Then on a subjective, personal tastes front, that's the better system for you, and in your world, is the winner for you. It's that amazingly complex - and also that amazingly simple. Hence why it's such a fascinating discussion!
So, which one wins in my own personal, little subjective world? Well, first let me say that I love both, feel they're both simply indispensable, and also wish deeply I could bring myself to be as subjectively neutral and impartial and unbiased as I am objectively. But yes, I do have a preference, a winner....and it doesn't just win, but wins by a significant margin.....my pick?.......Genesis does what Nintendon't! #TeamGenesis!
I would've vastly preferred more cartoony, Final Fight or Streets of Rage style character graphics to these Killer Instinct ones. But that's not enough to turn me off to the game if it's good enough. I'll be keeping an eye out. Actually, I suppose a I can just go do the Steam Easy Access thing and not wait.
I'm also glad that Thomas said what he said about this being like "the REAL Sonic 4" as I was thinking almost the exact same thing - that this is what Sonic 4 tried to be. Now, I liked Sonic 4 better than a lot of people did, I think, but even I can already tell that this is better! Yeah, I think I'm really gonna like this!
And unlike Binding of Isaac, which I bought just the other day, this game has a very very serious chance of causing me to break away from Miitopia's inexorable pull long enough to enjoy it. Isaac, I play for maybe 20 minutes at a time then drift back to Miitopia. I think it will be different here!
And yes, I think this game will be best on Switch! Well, in a sense I think it'll be the same on Switch as everywhere else. But what that means, then, is that the extra hardware advantages on the other platforms is forfeited, whereas the Switch's unique benefit of playing at home or on the go is maintained, making the Switch version (in my mind) a singularly obvious choice for multiplatform gamers to get on the order of "why the hell would I get it anywhere else....unless I'm just planning on getting it everywhere?"
Lastly, I'm glad to hear Thomas talk on a Nintendo site about being a Sega kid growing up. I had both a Genesis and a Super Nintendo growing up (SNES - Christmas 1992, Genesis - some random day early September 1993). And while I definitely liked both, back in the day I was totally Team SNES. But in my early 20's (the early 2000s - making Thomas and I of similar age, it seems), a strange thing happened, and I began to feel myself being pulled in the opposite direction. In time I defected, and now, as it concerns the 4th generation of gaming, I'm absolutely Team Genesis (and Team Turbografx).
It actually creates something of an interesting tension in my gaming life: looking big picture at the history of gaming when taken as a whole, Nintendo is tops in my opinion. And in the modern gaming scene in which we live today, I'm exceedingly Team Nintendo (well, and Team PC, I suppose)....and yet, when we go back to the 4th gen, which I STILL regard as my personal favorite era, Nintendo actually comes in last place for me. So, Nintendo, except for where it counts the most I suppose I also prefer the original Playstation over the N64), but otherwise (and maybe WiiU), Nintendo wins or ties in every gaming generation for me. Man, but that Sega Genesis, tho.
Just got it this morning, and only had a little time to play it on the ride in to work. Though my impressions can only be called "very preliminary" since I only got to Green Hill Zone -Act 2, those preliminary impressions are that Sonic Mania is ABSOLUTELY AMAZIZING!!! It's like the ultimate ROM hack in all the perfectly right ways!
Am I holding off on it on Switch? Well, yes and no and maybe. What do I mean by that? This: that I'm not 100% certain yet whether I'm going to buy the game in the first place. HOWEVER, should I buy the game, it'll DEFINITELY be on Switch. So news on its release is still something aim looking forward to receiving. Bring it on!
The fruit of being able to judge the output of a game by the capabilities and limitations of the host hardware rather than just by simple surface observations - an interesting paradox emerges:
The Switch version looks WAAAAAAAAY -"BETTER"-, I doubt we're gonna find anybody who would disagree with that one......and yet.....I think I've gotta say that the 3DS actually looks -"MORE IMPRESSIVE"- all things considered.
1080p on the Switch is nice. Don't get me wrong But, I dunno, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that super duper duper pushes the Switch hardware. Going just by the video, neither the textures or poly models look very impressive, and neither do the physics.
Now, we all know the Switch wasn't built to be a powerhouse, but I think more recent games have made a very strong case at least for the argument that the hardware is capable of producing things that remind us more of XB1 than of WiiU - and yet - this looks like a 1080p upscale of an XBox360 game. Not very impressive even by the Switch's relatively modest standards.
By contrast, the 3DS is sooooooo much lower resolution, and the textures are sooooooo much more basic and blurry/choppy than the Switch. But the poly models themselves seem the same, the frames seem basically the same, and the non-graphical components of the game seem to be....well.....identical. Generally when I play a 3DS game it seems like a more basic, stripped down thing - different game with the same name. Not so here. The game at least appears to play EXACTLY the same as its more powerful sibling. Not something I'm used to. So that alone impresses me!
Actually, I realize this is quite an imperfect comparison, but the difference here reminds me VERY much of PC games from the late 90's such as Quake 2 where you could choose between "hardware rendering" and "software rendering". The graphics quality difference was night and day, with hardware being way way waaaaaaaaaaaaay better....but it was the same game. It played the same, it worked the same, and all of that. So, the Switch version reminds me of hardware rendering and the 3DS version reminds me of software rendering.
But which one performed better to my eyes relative my expectations for them on the hardware given the capabilities thereof? I kinda think I've gotta say 3DS here, fellas!
Ooh!!! I think my wife may just get that Galaxy Edition N3DSXL she's been wanting since I got mine! Because I may just give it to her in exchange for helping me get this gorgeous thing!!! Glorious!!
Miitopia and Splatoon 2 are the top two most heavily played games in my house right now - particularly Miitopia!
We rescued "Princess Mr. T", and the conflict between "her" competing suitors, "Kanye West" and "Mike Pence" has been resolved......Mike Pence got "the girl". Also, my party was kidnapped, and I had to form a new one. This new party includes, among others, Reggie Fils Aime, and his war cry?......"SEGA!!!"
Interestingly, since it was mentioned in the article, the Crash remaster on PS4, I bought it on the same day that I bought Miitopia (Miitopia launch day), but it has seen much much less play than the aforementioned game, or even ARMS, for that matter. That one's still getting a lot of love from yours truly!
UPDATE: I got this on launch day, as I had said I would, and it DOES NOT DISAPPOINT!! It's simple without being TOO simple. Basically, it just feels streamlined - but in a good way!
Separate from the game itself is a companion app called "Miitopia casting call". It lets you cast four party member roles, the role of the Dark Lord, the role of the King, and the role of the Princess, then lets you watch trailers with those characters in place.
That's a blast in and of itself! I made some really zany cast choices which I'll elaborate on below, and so gaffaws rang out from all quadrants of our household that night!
Only drawback to the casting call app is that I could not figure out a way to port my work in it over to the real game. Also, if you make a Mii from scratch in it, it doesn't automatically save it, so you'll have to make it from scratch all over again in the main game if you wish to use them.
So, those of you who played with the casting call, who did you cast in which roles? Me? I did a mix of family and famous characters (mix of real people and fictional). I was the knight, my wife, Jodee was the mage, and our kiddo, Chloe, was the cat. I cast Lord Voldemort for the role of cleric (and he hit it off with my wife a little too well!). The King I cast as Charlie Brown ("Charlie B.")......and now for the real fun!!! My casting call featured The Dark Lord.....BOB ROSS (Yes! The Happy Trees guy!) And for the Princess?.......MR. T!!!
Is was a RIOT!!! Now how about you?
p.s. My wife asked me why I cast her as a mage, and without missing a beat, I answered "because you can be a real witch sometimes!" Gratefully, she knew I was only kidding!......or was I?
This review made the game sound so endearing that I went out and bought it on launch day (yesterday). Now, while I haven't had a chance to play it yet, I have very high hopes for what it will be! Looking forward to it!!!
So, I love the idea of the N2DSXL, like the look well enough, and would be VERY tempted to get one....
......were it not for one teensy detail.......
I just got an N3DSXL a couple weeks ago - the galaxy edition. So a I have no personal use for this new system whatsoever.
However, I still think it's a great idea for the device family, a reasonable price, everything my N3DSXL is except for one non-essential feature, and reasonably attractive in its aesthetics. What's not to like about it?
I would like to maybe get one for my wife (who just inherited my old original spec 3DSXL) and/or for the kiddo, who is stuck all the way back at the DSi! So maybe Christmas time will get them some sales. We'll see.
So I'm just now starting to really get into Minecraft recently. All I've played so far has been Survival Mode. It seems like most of these fixes are for other modes and probably won't impact me directly til I start to branch out. And who knows when that'll be.
However, that this kind of level of support is coming to the Switch version of Minecraft makes me very happy all the same. And short of Better Together and the Super Duper graphics pack or whatever it's called, the thing I've been most anxious for was the 1080p upgrade, so i'm very very happy about that.
I mean, yes, the game will look better in 1080 and better is always....well....better. But the biggest reason I'm happy about 1080 when docked is not as much for the improved visuals themselves, but rather because I always want to see games perform better in the dock than undocked. It's a waste of power when there's no difference, and it also begins to wear on the very magic of the Switch. The Switch is a console/portable hybrid, and that's the true magic. When you reap no benefit from docked mode, it becomes harder to see the Switch as two (or more) systems in one with two different specs, two different levels of performance potential, and two different experiences beyond big screen and small screen. In other words, the narrative "portable/console hybrid" becomes harder and harder to believe, and is increasingly replaced with the notion of "portable with a clever dock for rebroadcasting on the screen". Much less impressive/attractive a narrative.
While the performance vector between Switch docked and Switch undocked is much smaller than the performance vector between XB1 and the upcoming XB1X, nor is there quite as much at stake for Nintendo, but in once sense the two modes of the Switch is the same as the two different XBox consoles - an upper, more impressive software layer that developers have to make for little or no extra money, and a tremendous "erosive" potential from developers that land along a spectrum of some possible combination of lazy, and/or inept, and/or unscrupulously profiteering who will either not bother with the upper layer at all, or do so only superficially, and then the upper form will be undermined.
In that far, even if no further, the docked/undocked thing on the Switch is just like PS4/PS4Pro, or XB1/XB1X. If we're gonna preserve the Pro, the 1X, and the extra enhanced benefits from the dock mode, then we have to see things taking advantage of them. Otherwise they'll just fade away. The first two into oblivion, the last one into irrelevance.
So it makes me very happy when we see developers make meaningful Pro and [in the future] 1X layers....and just the same is true for specifically docked layers for Switch!
I'm glad 4J and/or Mojang and/or Microsoft didn't give up until this issue was fixed! They're part of the solution now, rather than being part of the problem as before.....
....and I very much look forward to seeing what my world will look like with the crisper, richer looking visuals!
I imagine this one being even more lopsided than ice cream vs cake. However, where I was with the majority last time, favoring ice cream, I'm gonna go with what I envision to be the minority this time, and join team Mayo!!!!! Yeah baby!! Of course, I am a bit plus-sized, so maybe the one has something to do with the other.
You know, the kiddo had been trying to get me into Minecraft for years with no success. I'm past the key age demographic, and it just made no sense to me. The first chip in that armor was after building the gaming PC (Kaby Lake i5 / GTX1070, etc), and discovering that I could play with Chloe in real time as she was on the Mrs.' much humbler all-in-one computer downstairs. I was doing it for her and not for me, but I did sorta see a faint glimmer of the potential magic of the game while we were playing! Gradually, I became a little less reluctant to fire the game up with her.
But what was it that pushed me over the edge into truly liking the game? What has caused me to be almost inseparable from the game for the next few weeks, and still drop in on it not infrequently? The Switch version, that's what. The flexibility of it! The not having to put it down when I stepped away from the TV on the one hand, while also not being bound to the small screen when I didn't want to be! I could have it both ways! Ah, the magic of the Switch!
Now, when better together comes out, I'll probably spend a lot more time playing on the PC for the better graphics, particularly, for the better draw distance. But until then, with all the work I've put into my world on the Switch, it's probably pretty much the only version of the game I'll play since everywhere else would be like starting over.....
......I still haven't gotten into the whole Minecraft YouTube videos thing, and frankly, I may just hang onto my crusty old man card and tell them all to get off my lawn (well, to quote Monty Python, "I'm 37, I'm not old!"). But on the other hand, I NEVER envisioned a day where I'd actually like Minecraft...so I guess you never truly know.
Chloe never envisioned a day where I'd like Minecraft either, and she's really excited about it. It's nice when you can make your kids happy like that.
Well, for whatever much or little this is worth of me to say, my immediate reaction to this is to think how much of an impact Switch has made to gaming in just four months vs what kind of impact Oddworld has made to gaming over two decades, and pretty much just write Mr. Lanning off.
Time will tell, of course. But rather than having a ring of validity to it to my ears, it sounds more like having a ring of butthurt. But I guess Lanning and Switch believers like myself will just have to let the courts of hindsight settle the dispute for us.
Til then, my Switch will get a lot more use than his games.
Well, neither in my opinion were unattractive systems. But I definitely do prefer the look of the American version. It's, I dunno, more stately and substantial looking to my eyes. More elegant. The JP/EU version looks more unremarkable. Plus, the big swath of darker gray in the middle isn't super attractive in my opinion (though the colored buttons on the controller sure are!)
But again, this is purely subjective preference over matters of simple aesthetic. It's definitely not anything to get into a shooting match over. If you prefer the look of the JP/EU version, more power to you. At the end of the day, as I said, they're both attractive systems.
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Re: Video: Digital Foundry Gives Its Full Tech Analysis of Super Mario Odyssey
I've already got my game pre-ordered, and barring absolute catastrophe, will have it picked up no later than tomorrow after work!
Though this analysis does show the seams of the Switch hardware a bit, on balance, I'm not only "okay" with what they accomplished, but actually quite a bit more than okay! I'm quite pleased, in fact! These performance figures are actually quite a bit -BETTER- than the last figures I heard in earlier builds, so, all I'm hearing is improvement. Besides, the little details everywhere make it an incredible presentation anyway, so I'm actually quite pleased!
It's showing more and more the performance gap between the Switch and the WiiU, and that that gap is quite a bit bigger than a lot of voices were fearing in the early goings. Far enough ahead of the WiiU to make me happy, and not far enough behind the XB1 to make me sad. Besides, if I really need absolute performance, I just leapfrog the consoles entirely and go to PC anyway. At least the Switch I can take with me!
So yeah, not only is this news not off-putting at all, but it only leaves me even happier than I was before seeing it....and I was pretty darn happy already!
Barring tremendously significant negative circumstances, which are utterly unforeseeable at the moment, I will have this thing in my grasp absolutely no later than the coming 6pm Central daylight time!
Yay!
To all the rest of you getting this game on launch day, I hope it's as awesome for you as it's been billed to be! Have a blast, guys and gals! I know I will be!
Cheers!
Re: Super Meat Boy Releases on Switch This Year
I very likely will be picking this up despite having it already on multiple platforms.
Now, here's the question: will the Switch version feature the Danny Baronoski original soundtrack, which is used in most versions of the game, or will it use the Scattle re-score as found on the PS4 and Vita versions?
While I'm perfectly content either way, as both are great soundtracks, I will go ahead and put myself with the [probably radical] minority and actually declare my preference for the PS Scattle re-score.
I know, I know. I'm crazy.
Re: RiME Takes Up More Space On Switch Than On Xbox One And PlayStation 4
So, to the silliness about the Switch “never being to have a definitive edition of a multi-platform game”: as a PC gamer, I watch the PS4 fans attempting to lord their hardware supremacy over the Switch, and its fans, and find the whole affair..........absolutely adorable! Like watching a 5yr old try to explain why he’s the Master of the Universe to a 4yr old sitting in the same tire sandbox. You’re all sooooooooo damned keeeeeyuuuuuute!! Here’s a cinnamon disc!
A definitive edition has much more to do with what content is included than the level of graphical fidelity itself....but, but, 1080p and 60fps and.....STOP IT! I simply cannot handle this much cuteness! You’re gonna make me evacuate my bowels!
Oh, and lastly, that 4yr old may well silence that 5yr old, when he stands up and blasts off into space, leaving the other stammering as undisputed Master of the Sandbox.
Re: Soapbox: The Switch Has a Big Problem, and It's Too Many Great Games
What started out as manageable (keeping up with the Switch software library) began to feel like trying to cling onto the back bumper of a car that’s speeding away. Eventually you lose your grip and watch the car fade into the distance. But that’s okay! Every new game that comes out for Switch makes me happy, even if long gone are any hopes of my being able to keep even remotely up with the system’s library! It’s a great problem to have!
Re: DOOM Confirmed for Nintendo Switch Launch on 10th November
I will plan on buying this version of Doom on launch day, or as close to it as possible. Odds are I’ll go hard copy - but digital isn’t completely out of the question!
Re: Team Vampire Triumphs in Latest Splatoon 2 Splatfest
Aaaaahhhhhh!!!!! I’ve missed yet another Splatfest!!!! This is the team I would’ve been on too!!
Re: DOOM Provides a 'Good Reference Point' to What Wolfenstein II Will Offer on Switch
@Velting Oh, no worries! I never took it as directed at me. I was simply offering up my perspective as something of a remedy to what you were encountering - only without going so far as to refuse to level some measured criticism where I felt it was warranted.
Nope, we’re all good here!
In fact, i’m completely with you in my disdain for those who so freely “ejaculate” doom (not the game) and gloom on here. I mean, free speech and all, but it’s kind of a waste of one’s life, in my opinion. If I were ever to adopt such a fatalistic stance towards the system, do you know what I’d personally do? Stop hanging around on these sites, and go find something more rewarding and fulfilling to do. You know?
Anyway, I get the impression you’d probably do the same.
Cheers!
Re: DOOM Provides a 'Good Reference Point' to What Wolfenstein II Will Offer on Switch
@electrolite77 Yes, that is entirely possible. And it would vacate my complaint if it were so. However, the impression I had was that the Undocked version also ran in solid 720p.
I guess we will see. This is one I’ll buy even if it is parity, though I’d be a lot happier if it wasn’t parity.
Of course, it’s a bit of a dubious “cure” for me if the parity is defeated not by the Docked mode going up from expectations, but by the Undocked mode going down, right?
Re: DOOM Provides a 'Good Reference Point' to What Wolfenstein II Will Offer on Switch
@Heavyarms55 I get what you’re saying, but let me offer a counter-perspective: The PS4 version is actually the one that’s “worthless” to me, as it’s neither anywhere near close enough to what I can get on my PC to make it a worthwhile replacement for that, nor is it “better enough” than the Switch version to make me willing to choose it over the flexibility of what the Switch offers.
That the PS4 is “the middle option” of the three in terms of performance is definitely not in dispute. But whether that middle option offers anyone with all three platforms anything “of real value” in light of the other two versions is what I have serious reservations about.
Obviously, if all a person has is a PS4 or an XB1, then yeah, get Doom on it. Totally! And, I say if you have a Switch and a PS4 (or XB1), but don’t have a PC, then I say get both versions. But if you have a Switch and a PC and a PS4/XB1, then I say skip PS4/XB1 and get the other two versions. And I also say that if you have a PC, regardless of whether you have a Switch or not, to skip the PS4 and XB1 versions as well, for what do they offer that you don’t already get in a way better form on PC?
Anyway, that’s my take on the matter. And I’m coming at this as one who has a PC capable enough to run the game in 4K Ultra/Nightmare and still get high 50s fps so long as I keep vSync turned off, as well as having a PS4, an XB1, and a Switch. I have the game on the PC, obviously, plan to get it on Switch, and have no plans to get it on PS4 unless it becomes just ridiculously cheap. I do have it on XB1, but only because I received it as a gift, and I never use it.
Do with that perspective whatever you will, mate!
Cheers!
Re: DOOM Provides a 'Good Reference Point' to What Wolfenstein II Will Offer on Switch
@Velting It’s a bit “tl;dr”, but if you want to see a response that ultimately begins and ends quite positively, but still has a major gripe in the middle (meaning I’m neither being “jaded hater”, nor “blind fanboy” here), read my comment. As of this writing, it’s the one that appears directly above yours.
Big picture: I’m super happy here. But there’s still one aspect about all this that makes me VERY upset....and no, it’s not $60, nor 30fps, nor 720p - at least, not directly.....you’ll see what I mean if you read it.
Cheers!
Re: DOOM Provides a 'Good Reference Point' to What Wolfenstein II Will Offer on Switch
Since I can play Doom in 4K Ultra/Nightmare on my PC and still maintain high 50s in the fps dept with vsync turned off, and play w/ KBM controls, it puts me in a position where I’ve got the “eye candy” / “precision controls” aspect well covered.
And as a result, I can say with the utmost degree of conviction, passion, and certainty that I would — — — MUCH— — — rather play Doom in 720p at low (or even a little less than low) settings using joycons with the ability to play on the big screen or on the go, than I would at [only sometimes] 1080p at medium settings using a PS4 or XB1 controller - even the XB1 Elite controller......a million, BILLION times over!
And so yet again, in what is becoming an almost 100% of the time refrain for me: between the power of the PC, and the flexibility of the Switch, the PS4 and the XB1 just keep slipping further and further into irrelevance for me. Console exclusives and free XBLG/PS+ goodies (and our using the XB1 as a Blu-Ray player) will serve to keep them from becoming COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY worthless to me......that, plus my completist “collectoarder” tendencies will prevent me from abandoning them completely.
But oh my stars and garters how the gap I feel between Switch and PC gaming being “gaming ‘up here’” (top level, “premier” gaming) and the PS4 and XB1 gaming being “gaming ‘down there’ (“second class citizen” gaming) only seems to grow wider and wider every time I get seemingly any new Switch news whatsoever (or to a lesser extent, new PC hardware news). It is just astounding. When treated as a pair, PC and Switch are just leaving PS and XB completely in the dust! And that’s not something I see improving all that much with the rise of Pro and 1X.
Now, universal gaming praise considerations aside, I do still have one serious beef with the news of Doom on Switch: parity between Docked and Undocked modes! I -HATE- it when I hear that! It makes me borderline furious...for real.
Regardless of how powerful (or weak) the Switch may or may not be, the one indisputable fact is that the Switch is meaningfully more powerful when Docked than whatever it is when Undocked. And so, when you see zero performance improvements whatsoever in Docked mode, it means that something along a spectrum ranging anywhere from complete developer incompetence to complete developer laziness (or of course, any conceivable midpoint mix of the two in between) is occurring, and that extra power is not being utilized. As Minecraft shows, it’s never impossible that a future update will unlock the extra power of the Docked system and fix this problem. And we certainly hope for that, but until then, it’s a complete waste of resources - resources that are only all the more precious for a heavy-hitting game like Doom, especially as the AAA developer world watching this with interest to gauge how viable their own blockbuster may be on the platform (bad time for a misstep)!
The analogy would be six months after the XB1X comes out, they release a major title that will only run at oXB1 spec, and take no advantage whatsoever of what the 1X offers. The only difference is they’re not wasting our $500 we would’ve spent on 1X to get the extra power, since we got the dock for free....but beyond that, it’s EXACTLY THE SAME.......(I’ll go ahead and say it)......— CRIME— !
Why not kick it up to 900p, with dynamic scaling? Or why not up the detail level a bit? Enhanced lighting? Something! Anything to separate it from the base Undocked experience! I hope a future update will do that.
And don’t tell me it’s not powerful enough to add....something. If Undocked runs at 40% of the Docked, then even if the current experience completely maxes the Undocked spec, that still leaves added bandwidth untapped when Docked. Use it. Utilize it. Give us both a portable and a console experience as this very system is designed to have, not just a portable experience that we can rebroadcast on a bigger screen and make it only look worse in the process.
I’m speaking to the developer directly now when I say this: you’re either lazy if you don’t.......or stupid.....or both. Which one is it, hmmmm?
Anyway, everything happy and unhappy I’ve said above withstanding, in this case, it doesn’t matter quite as much to me as with having the PC version for the big screen, I will probably do 90% of my Doom playing on Switch in Handheld mode anyway. Plus, there’s a good deal of grace to be offered Doom in my mind for being on the Switch in the first place as upon launch of the system, Doom was the game (in my mind) that was kinda the “oh man, wouldn’t it be great if....but yeah right” pipe dream for the system - a pipe dream that has now become (or is in the process of becoming) a reality after all. Vindication for the system, and quite possibly, the beginnings of the flood gates being opened to the AAA titles that heretofore have been, not necessarily “out of reach” of the system per se, but kept at bay, at least.
Anyway, I would still much rather play it on Switch than on PS4 or XB1, and am still quite happy to have it - even with its simply glaring flaw which paints the developer oh so horribly! Now fix the Docked / Undocked parity issue, and we’ll have something truly magnificent and [quote unquote] “perfect” on our hands here!
Cheers!
Re: North America Gets a Neat Halloween-Themed Splatoon 2 Splatfest
Yeah, I like this one better! But I can see the rhetoric and/or even swagger already from the #TeamWerewolf people: “TeamVampire sucks!” I mean, I can’t blame em. It’s such low-hanging fruit that you have to.
But we’ll take it, and beat them so bad it’ll make them howl at the moon! #TeamVampire, baby!!
Re: Nintendo Aims to Flush Out the Best Players in the Next Splatoon 2 Splatfest
I think it’s quirky cute. #TeamFrontRoll
Re: Review: Arcade Archives Mario Bros. (Switch eShop)
@carlos82 Atari 2600 is where I started as well! I still can’t swear that the 2600 isn’t the most fun of them all! Terrible graphics, but even faster, smoother gameplay than the NES (and, I believe, the Arcade). I still have my Atari, though I don’t fire it up that often. However, whenever I do, I always make sure Mario Bros gets busted out!
Re: Review: Arcade Archives Mario Bros. (Switch eShop)
I plan on buying this, and look forward to more like it!
Also, the differences between the Arcade and NES Mario Bros are both teeny tiny, and yet, huge! I started on Atari 2600 Mario Bros, then went to NES (HUGE difference), then went backwards to the Atari 5200 and Atari 7800 versions. But the Arcade version is still the Premier way to play.....let me at it!
Re: Video: How to Make Your Own Awesome Nintendo Switch Arcade Cabinet
I need this in my life!!!
Re: Review: Lichtspeer: Double Speer Edition (Switch eShop)
"Grab your speer and get to Kraftwerk"....
.....why? What's going on down at the power plant that requires my spear? (Since that's what "Kraftwerk" means in German, in case anyone missed the joke).
That aside (sorry, I couldn't resist), this does look like a neat game! I'll have to check it out! The good news is that the Switch library is growing so fast, the bad news is I've totally lost my ability to keep up with it in terms of purchases. This is getting completely out of hand - in all the right ways!
Cheers!
P.s. Are spears even allowed on the Trans Europa Express? Vellicht wenn sie von licht gemacht? Eh, who knows?
Re: Feature: Exploring The "Switch Tax" And Why Nintendo Was Right to Use Game Cards
It's the least suboptimal of a range of imperfect solutions to a problem created by a novel approach to gaming wherein we gain oh so very much more than we lose.
So, to the people who are losing their shizzy over this, I would urge them to maintain proper perspective in it all, and see it as nowhere near the boogie man that they're making of it.
Re: Reminder: Don't Miss The Flight Vs Invisibility Splatfest In Splatoon 2
Dammit! I missed it!
I would've been #TeamFlight! But apparently, I was #TeamInvisible by way of being a no-show.
Re: Review: Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle (Switch)
Just bought it over lunch. In fact, my boss was on his way to the office to do my annual performance evaluation and came to Best Buy instead and performed the evaluation there so that it didn't interfere with my buying the game!
That's pretty awesome! And the strangest evaluations I've ever had, I might add! Not only was it surreal enough as it stood, but about 9/10ths of the way through it, someone started shooting off fireworks nearby. I mean, the evaluation was good, but not "warranting fireworks" levels of good!
In any case, I didn't bring my Switch with me, so I'll have to wait til tonight to try it. I do have my N3DSXL with me, but that doesn't work.....believe me, I tried. (J/K)
I do have a serious question for those who have played the game, though, and hopefully someone will be able to answer it:
I know this runs in 900p docked, rather than 1080p, which a I can deal with - especially if what I THINK I'm seeing in the pictures is actually true of the real game experience. What am I seeing? Well, it's not what I'm seeing at all, but rather, what I'm NOT seeing: and that's aliasing. The pictures make this look like it has nearly impeccable anti-aliasing!
If that's true, then that should make for an absolutely GORGEOUS game that more than justifies its drop to 900p resolution. Going by the pictures this looks WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more like a cartoony XB1 game than it does a WiiU game - and is just the latest thing, then, to further my belief that the system's true capabilities are closer to the top of the "WiiU-to-XB1" performance span than they are to the bottom like so many of us initially thought and even I initially feared.
Anyway, I can't wait to try this game out tonight, and should be able to say more then. But if someone can get back to me on the aliasing thing, that'd be awesome!
Thanks!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@speedracer216 awesome!
So, here's the details on the series I wrote (again, no longer online):
The magazine: "RetrogamingTimesMonthly"
The title of the series: "Fanboyism and the 16-bit Console Wars".
Pseudonym I wrote under: "Des Gamer".
Standout feature: I am probably the first - and last person in the history of the universe to use comparative studies of mid-sized US city skylines - particularly Des Moines, Omaha, Cedar Rapids, and Mobile as analogies for the software libraries of the SNES, Genesis, TG16, and Neo Geo.....very strange analogy....but surprisingly effective! Omaha was SNES, Des Moines was Genesis, Cedar Rapids was TG16, and Mobile was Neo Geo.
Does that sound like the series you read? Wouldn't that be "it's a small world" awesome if it was?
[edit] p.s. Genesis is my favorite of these software libraries, and Des Moines is my favorite of the mentioned skylines......of course, I'm a passionate Des Moineser, so there's that!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@Darasin @sdelfin To prevent the risk of "overly shameless self-promotion" and "overly beating a drum", I'll make it a point to avoid making repeated mentions of this, but Dar, if you're not completely ruined on the idea of FM forever by now, I'd recommend Episode 2 especially, but also episodes 7, 12 (not entirely FM), 13, and coming late October - episode 17 of my podcast Nerd Noise Radio. Avail on YouTube, iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Buzzsprout, Podbean, Blogspot, Twitter, Facebook, Google +, and Archive.org. Delf, as a fellow fan of FM, I'd also be interested in knowing what you think.
Okay, end shameless self-promotion! Back to your regularly scheduled programming!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@sdelfin So, I'm gonna be tied up for the next couple hours and unable to "really" reply. But I definitely would love to talk about Neo Geo and TG16!
Spoiler: we're in almost complete agreement. I think we might disagree just slightly enough to make it a little more interesting than "Yep." "Yeeeeeep." "MmmmmHMmMmmm."
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@Webheadd wamp wamp. :-/
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@darasin, @sdelfin But the TV didn't negate that. Sure there was overscan that caused, say, a literal 240p to only have 224p of real-life usable space, but the higher resolution still resulted in more real-life usable space on-screen than the lower resolution equivalent, and no, that was not all consumed by the overscan area. It also, as I mentioned before, resulted in greater density in the sprite, where the lower resolution on the SNES resulted in more "diffused" sprites which look much worse to my eyes in general. In an overwhelming majority of cases, I would rather have tighter sprites that seem smaller to the eye, than bigger (to the eye), and "looser" sprites. But that's subjective on my part (just as the opposite on your part is also subjective).
Old CRT TVs weren't "fixed pixel" like our modern flat panel TVs are. So when a modern TV with a 1080p panel is displaying a 720p image, it's applying some multiplicative algorithm to upscale 720p worth of pixels (again, too lazy to math) to fill 1080p worth of pixels, resulting in somewhat of a smeary image. In the case of 720p to 1080p, the difference is subtle enough that the image still looks okay, but when your run old consoles with their usually sub-480p resolution on them, this fixed-pixel upscaling is one half of the equation on why they look just awful (the other half is missing scanlines that the game artists designed their images around). This is why, in addition to a handful of 1080p, and 720p TVs around the house and one 4K TV, I also hang onto a mid-90's 36" Toshiba 4x3 480i convex glass CRT "tube" TV where I play every console Wii and older. It's the only way that old games truly look "right".
On CRT, this fixed pixel thing isn't an issue - because the pixels aren't fixed. When the signal is 256x240, or 320x240, that's actually what you're getting. It's why both resolutions look crisp. The precise science of exactly how a cathode ray tube achieves this is totally beyond me, and is irrelevant to our discussion anyway other than to say that no, the added resolution is NOT wasted on the TV. Actually, if anything, the flexibility of CRT makes the resolution difference MORE significant because of pixel density and how it relates to how tight or how diffuse a character sprite looks.
And now to the matter of resolution vs color depth being "more or less valuable" for the betterment of the visual experience overall. This matter is the larger part subjective (which I'm really going to the greatest of pains to "throw out of the courtroom" here as much as possible) and the smaller part contextual. Secret of Mana probably benefits more from the colors than it would from the resolution where Sonic definitely benefits more from the resolution than it would the colors. So there is a little bit of context that we should keep factored-in. But for the most part, which one "makes for better visuals" should probably be factored-out because it's way more a matter of taste than anything.
However, there's one aspect of that question that we should definitely examine, and it's the matter of which is [quote unquote] "heavier" or "more taxing" or "more demanding" on a system's resources, which one requires "more power" from a system in order to pull it off: more colors, and more special effects, or higher resolution and more sprites? Answer? The latter. The latter is the one that requires "more power". The color counts are not really dependent on processing power, but just on the size of the database of available colors. You program in a color's code, and it retrieves it. Easy lifting. And the mode effects are not super power-intensive either. Consider the mode 7-centric F-Zero. The track that your cars run on is basically a character sprite itself that it zooms in at the proper angle to make it appear that you're riding on it. To put it super crassly, "you're a car, driving on the surface of another car". And because of the zooming and scaling, you don't even necessarily have to have a humongous sprite. Consider the boss battle in stage 1 of Jim Power. It's a mode 7 affair on the SNES with scaling and all of that, but it's ultimately a teeny sprite. The Genesis and Amiga versions don't feature that kinda scaling, but just use a giant character sprite. Which one is more power demanding (at least on the CPU)? The latter one. And add to that the fact that despite carrying the significantly heavier load, the Genesis is STILL faster and smoother running ....that's incredibly telling.
The SNES is actually pushing much less "real stuff", just with much greater abilities to "play with it". But for every SNES game that makes any meaningful use of the mode effects, there's what, 20-50 that don't? That number is a guess on my part, but the point stands, it's a feature and function that is unused more often than it's used. The higher resolution in the Genesis, the higher number of sprites, the generally bigger, more detailed sprites, on the other hand, are things that were used the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the time on the Genesis. Mode effects are the exception on SNES, not the rule. Resolution and sprites on Genesis are the rule, not the exception. And most of the Genesis games that do use the lower resolution and the fewer sprites are multiplatform games, so not at all a case where the SNES is rising to Genesis parity, but a case where the Genesis is stooping to SNES parity ("tying the Genny's hands behind its back", as I said before).
Anyway, what have I been saying all along? "The SNES is 'more advanced', and the Genesis is 'more powerful'". Both of these are facts, and hopefully you can see now how that is so. Which one yields the best results out of their side of the dynamic is, as I've also said repeatedly, almost entirely subjective (which we dismiss), and a little bit contextual (which we've already dealt with).
However, at the end of the day, it was never delf or I's goal to ever change your mind on which system you PREFERRED, or which audio and visual experience was more pleasing and satisfying....TO YOU. If you remain in a state of preferring the visuals and the sound of the SNES to that of the Genesis, we're not going to lose any sleep over that whatsoever. All we cared ever about, or at the very least, all -I- ever cared about was getting you to see that for every benefit the SNES brings to the table, the Genesis brings one as well, and that a position of "SNES is objectively, undeniably superior" is untenable. That they come out a wash in the end, or, as I said from my very first line in this entire conversation, "a stalemate"....that's really all I was ever trying to impress upon you.
Which one you "prefer" is irrelevant outside of the four walls of your house, just as delf and I's preference for the opposite is also meaningless. You see the Genesis graphics as gritty and colorless, and the sound as shrill and inaccessible. I look at the SNES visuals and see comparative nothingness hiding behind a thin veneer of awesomeness like Urkel stuffing his body builder outfit to look like The Hulk, and the sound, to me so very often sounds like a Casio coming from down the hall. But even so, at the end of the day, many times that thin veneer of awesomeness is still enough to do the trick, and not infrequently is the music in the hall still glorious. It's just, for me, even if it lacks all the sheen and gimmickry of the SNES, there is just so much more "meat on the bones" of the Genesis visuals behind the veneer, and such a greater velocity to them as well. And the music is crisper, cleaner, punchier, louder, bolder, and a lot more nuanced and fluid (even if it is confined to a much smaller piece of sonic real estate). And these are all virtues which I prize above the virtues offered by the other. You feel the opposite - and that's just fine. Just don't equate your personal enjoyment barrier to Genesis' FM soundscape with an objective inferiority out of it as a result - that's projecting, and is also a confusion of objective and subjective - or that the smaller color pallete and lack of mode 7 makes Genesis less powerful than the SNES when there's so much else going on to offset that....even if you personally get nothing out of that offsetting.
Your response to delf and Gunstar Heroes indicated that you missed his point completely. You said that even Treasure would, to paraphrase, "probably not be able to do the best SNES games on Genesis" when his whole point was to say that Gunstar Heroes, in the form in which we had it with all the sprites flying everywhere at breakneck speeds, in such a large play field (because of the resolution) and with larger, more detailed (albeit, more cartoony) character sprites which were also way more fluid and animated.....that such a game would've been UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE on SNES....that was his point. And he's absolutely, positively right! So many of the things that each system did would be impossible on the other - at least without MAJOR compromises and cut-backs. This is why I said that if we put DKC on Genesis or Vectorman on SNES that THE BOTH of them would be all the worse for it. Your responses seem to indicate that you well grasp the half of that equation that comports with your preferences, and you're not wrong insofar as you do....but your responses seem to also indicate a failure to truly grasp the opposite half of that equation which is every bit as much the truth. Now, again, those things may not matter to you PERSONALLY because you don't personally get anything out of them. But again, that's subjective and utterly worthless to the question at hand. Simply that they exist - and with pervasiveness is what we've labored to demonstrate.
Our mission in this running dialog, or again, -MY- mission in it has only been to get you to concede that it's a two-way street with this contest, not a one-way, and that declaring an absolute objectively superior winner here is a fool's errand because it's too give and take, it's too apples and oranges. That's all. I was never after anything more than just that. And comparing your first reply to me, Dar, with your final one to delf (or final as of the initiation of my writing this - a good deal of time has elapsed between start and finish and who knows what's been said in-between), it seems as if delf and I have succeeded in this aim. In your first response to me, you said [paraphrased] "I'm glad you love the Genesis so much", but the SNES is clearly the superior system". In your last response, you said [also paraphrased] "Which one is objectively best is unknown".....or something to that effect.....
......I dunno, delf, it sounds like our work here is done! Time to start talking about Turbografx!
But as has also been said - by me, by delf, and by others is that in our day and age, we can have both, and benefit from the vastly different treasures and wonders of both, which really only serve to compliment each other wonderfully. They're the "yin and yang" of gaming, and the universe is simply not complete without both. The only REAL losers here, and I can't put this into words strongly enough - these people are "effin LEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOSERS", L-shaped hand-gesture to the forehead losers"......are the ones who refuse to participate in both, clinging so desperately to their one or the other that they deprive themselves of the joys of the 2nd. THOSE are the losers here. Those and those alone.
One last thing, Dar: Mortal Kombat. You're asking about why the characters still seem so much smaller on the Genesis, and feel like the resolution difference is not enough to fully answer the question. You're right. Google a side by side which shows the full screen of both. Now, I'll draw your attention to two things:
1) where on the screen are the characters' feet? You'll notice that on the Genesis, the feet are almost all the way to the bottom of the screen, and therefore, the playfield proper occupies the bottom half of the screen. On the SNES, the feet are about 1/3rd of the way up the screen, meaning the playfield is the middle half of the screen, more or less.
2) The player's energy bars are much larger on the SNES, and therefore, extend further down from the top of the screen. By contrast, the energy bars on the Genesis version are really thin, and really "hug" the top of the screen.
Now let me ask you, what happens to the space between the top of the characters' heads and the bottom of the energy bars? On the SNES version, that space is very small. In fact, if memory serves, when you jump, you even enter into that space a little. On the Genesis version, that space between the tip of the head and the bottom of the bar is waaaaaaaay bigger, and you don't even reach it when being uppercut.
So this is why the Genesis characters seem so much smaller beyond what the resolution would account for when they are actually the same size. As I said right at the beginning of our talks about Mortal Kombat, it's not a size difference issue, it's a matter of forced perspective. Might I have wished they did it on Genesis more like how they did it on SNES? Yeah, maybe. The SNES approach feels a little "cheaty" to me, and the Genesis version's approach does allow for more background details. But it also makes the most important part of the visuals - the characters themselves seem a lot smaller (even though they're not). Yeah, the SNES approach here was probably the better one, all things considered. Oh, and as far as MK2 goes, I was simply trying to highlight how the characters in the Genesis version are actually bigger "for realsies". The Genesis version cuts corners elsewhere. But at the time, the question was "why didn't the Genesis version of Mortal Kombat make its characters bigger to offset the resolution?" and I was just simply trying to show that they did do so for the second go-round.
Cheers!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@Derasin Something just occurred to me: if you want a huge sample of FM music that I think is just awesome, that I might possibly use to attempt to warm your heart to FM sound, I would actually point you to Episode 2 of my own podcast.
I was an idiot and accidentally recorded the music blocks of episodes 1 and 2 in mono (Episode 3 and forward is in stereo). Nevertheless, Episode 2 still has one of my favorite music blocks of the 20 I've produced so far. And it's ALL FM-based music. Now, that doesn't mean it's all Sega Genesis music. Indeed, only roughly half of it is Sega Genesis. The rest are from all the other FM systems out there throughout gaming history. Most of these systems are technically superior to the Genesis (a couple are actually inferior), though the family resemblance with FM is so strong that to most people it may be believable if I tried to tell you it was ALL Sega Genesis.
Since I think hyperlinks are blocked here, I won't include one. But I'd just steer you to YouTube, and have you search for "Nerd Noise Radio - Channel 1 - C1E2: "Twisted Sine", and you should be able to find it.
@sdelfin, you might particularly enjoy this episode too!
I apologize for not having popups with track info. Those didn't debut until episode 5 (along with a better looking logo backdrop). But the track listing IS included in the video description (aka the "episode show notes"), and you can follow along that way.
Cheers!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@bolt05 ESPECIALLY THE MUSIC!!!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@speedracer216 Obviously, eh? And which official list of indisputably best systems are you pulling that list from? You're either being tongue-in-cheek, in which case, rock on. Or you meant subjectively rather than objectively, in which case, you're certainly free to feel however you wish with no objections from me, only choosing to use the word "obviously" was unfortunate because it implies an objective assertion. Or you actually were trying to make an actual objective assertion, with no argument to back it up, and the "obviously" doing nothing but appealing to itself - if it's the latter option, then there's no "obviously" about it, until you can make a coherent case for it. Suppose you say "obviously SNES is better", and I say "obviously Genesis is better." Now what? Now we're at an impasse. In any case, before you can "obviously anything", you've gotta be able to make a coherent argument. I've made some coherent (if at the expense of being terribly wordy) arguments already on this thread that predict such an argument will not be forthcoming, or that if it is, it will not be persuasive.
@Sondheimist @StuTwo Those are fair posts. Objectively, the two stalemate. Subjectively, it's in the eye of the beholder, and largely depends on which parts of the hardware or software benefit of each system appeals more to your personal tastes and interests.
When it comes to software libraries, this is way too general of me to apply to everything, but just speaking in sweeping terms, I feel the best way to summarize the difference between the major software titles of both platforms is SNES games are more "telescope" and Genesis games are more "microscope". Now, what do I mean by that? SNES games seem to be more story-driven, long-road, big world epics that span vast spaces, but seem to be so much simpler and basic and plainer in terms of what's actually happening on the screen at any given moment. Genesis games seem to have much bigger, more action packed, more detailed "right in front of you" vistas, in smaller, more segmented, more linear "worlds". So, one approach puts more emphasis on the big picture, while the other approach puts more emphasis on the small picture.
Again, examples of possible exceptions will abound on both sides, and again, I don't think that one approach is inherently better or worse than the other. But this difference reflects in Sonic vs Mario, Metroid vs Shinobi, Zelda vs Golden Axe or Altered Beast, or Streets of Rage, or whatever other games we want to pit against each other. The SNES games tend to be bigger worlds made up of smaller scenes, where Genesis games tended to be smaller worlds made up of bigger scenes.
Though looking at the history of the franchises, I prefer the Mario universe to the Sonic universe big picture (by a LONG SHOT) - and Zelda and Metroid are my two favorite franchises in history - period - both with excellent showings in the 16-bit......I still find myself preferring the offerings provided by the Genesis.
Perhaps it's worth noting here that I don't feel like SNES particularly faltered at all. It's an amazing system with an amazing software library perfectly in keeping with the rest of Nintendo history. Instead, I feel like the bright and shining sun of Nintendo very briefly had the Sega moon pass in front of it during the 16-bit generation (to use a timely analogy for Americans).
Now, whether you agree or disagree with that, does that at least make sense?
@BulbasaurusRex you'll have to see some of the earlier conversations, but even the graphics and sound are not so cut and dry. You talk about Genesis and SNES being give and take, and I say "amen and amen". But I would maintain that even the graphics themselves, and even the sound itself are give and take as well. I won't re-make the whole argument here, but see my earliest post for a pretty nice summary of the matter. Also, you'll be able to glean a little of that difference from what I intend to say to some of our other conversation partners below. But in short, I think saying either system categorically has better graphics or better sound is untenable. I would never go so far as to advance either of those assertions in favor of Genesis....but I would GLADLY go so far as to deny them in favor of SNES. Read my earlier posts to learn more.
@sdelfin @Darasin Okay, finally back to you guys! So sorry it took me so long to reply. I had to put it down for work, and for the family commute this evening, and am just now at liberty to pick this back up.
I think I can offer a different perspective on the resolution and sprite size thing. I actually prefer the sprites in higher resolution. When they're in low res, they look stretched, and maybe "smeary" isn't the right word, but "diffuse" maybe? It's the same or less detail spread over a larger space, so you're going to have that effect. You're just gonna. Also, aliasing tends to be much more apparent in the SNES iterations, in part because higher resolution always improves aliasing when all else is equal, and in part because the softer Genesis AV output hides some of that, and where color fringing isn't an issue, that softness creates a false, but sometimes quite convincing illusion of an even greater resolution advantage than there actually is. The sprites on the Genesis, even when they're dot for dot equal, and even when they [falsely] appear to be smaller on the screen are still tighter, and denser in their detail, making them look less diffuse and - in my opinion, BETTER. I like the sprites better on the Genesis Wolfchild, Lion King, TMNT, Bram Stoker's Dracula.....and (gasp) possibly even Mortal Kombat 1.
The Genesis MK sprites are much lower color, which does work against them admittedly. But they are otherwise identical sprites, dot for dot. They are the same size on a pixel graph, and everything. The SNES versions look so aliased and diffuse, where the Genesis ones look tighter and less aliased.
The point is, it's easy to understand why one would prefer the look of the more colorful SNES MK sprites, and why one would find their "illusion of 'biggerness'" as also being advantageous. But there's a counterperspective out there that I myself hold which says that the illusion of bigger without the necessary pixels to fill in the blanks is almost NEVER better, and not better in any of the cases we've discussed here. So, on the subjective front, we find ourselves at an impasse.
But what's the point that I've been laboring this whole time? Our subjectivity doesn't really matter outside of our own living rooms. You preferring the look of the SNES Lion King sprites doesn't make them better, nor does my preference of the Genesis sprites. Filling a higher or lower percentage of the screen being "more desirable" or "less desirable" is subjective in the context we've been discussing it, and therefore, ultimately meaningless to the question of the objective question of superior or inferior hardware.
Were we to look at it objectively, we ask these kinds of questions instead: 1) How many pixels are in the sprite? Same. It's a tie. 2) How many colors are used in the sprite? Presumably higher on the SNES (though not necessarily so in all cases). Advantage SNES (where applicable). 3) How many pixels are on the screen in total? 320x224p vs 256x224p (too lazy to do that math). Advantage Genesis. 4) Which one is carrying the "heavier processing load"? Answer: Genesis. 5) Is Genesis handling the load at lower performance, higher performance, or equal performance. Answer: Higher. Faster, more fluid, less slowdown. Summary: Higher processing load at faster, more fluid, less slowdown performance vs higher color and cleaner AV output. Which one takes that? I'll leave that question open. But those kind of questions.....if I can be brutally frank....are the ONLY questions that REALLY matter here, at the end of the day. Everything else is us just waxing preferential, all of us [QUITE FIGURATIVELY SPEAKING] engaging in "group masturbation".
It would be easy for me to share tracks and graphics that push me towards my "subjective" preference of the Genesis. But trying to keep us on track in our quest for objectivity, I would only share stuff that highlights actual objective advantages of the Genesis. To that end, rather than focusing on music that I particularly love, and hoping you'd be inspired to feel the same way, I would instead, only want to share things that are crisper, cleaner, louder, punchier, beefier, more [quote unquote] "hi-fi" than their SNES counterparts....or else....more fluid, more dynamic, more flexible, demonstrating greater live morph, and less "woodenness" than your typical SNES fare. Things that are objectively better in those regards, not things that just subjectively tickle me - though a great many of the tracks that I'll highlight have the added benefit of doing both!
To that end, I'd want to echo delf's recommendation for Shinobi 3 and SOR 2. I'd also point you to Sonic 3's Hydrocity Zone act one. Though you may well prefer the arrangement on the SNES version of the Bram Stoker's Dracula soundtrack (and my blessings if you do), I don't want you to listen for preferred arrangement (which is subjective and irrelevant), or even the broadness of potential instrumentation (which is an objective SNES advantage that delf and I have already freely admitted). Instead, I would want you to listen for all the things I mentioned above as objective benefits to the Genesis version. You'll hear them. You'll also hear them in the two versions of the Mortal Kombat soundtrack. You might prefer the soundscapes the hazier SNES version offers (and maybe the SNES version even fits the mood of the game more appropriately). But in terms of raw "oomph" factor, you'll see that Genesis carries the day.
At the risk of sounding waaaaaaaaay colder than I intend to, I don't really care which one you "prefer", all I want to face you with is the fact that for each advantage the SNES sound system offers, there's a counter-advantage to the Genesis sound system. That's it.
In terms of the greater fluidity of the Genesis sound system, I'm actually going to refer you to a couple tracks that most would find to be unpleasant "noise" tracks. The purpose isn't to get you to enjoy the tracks, but to just see how much more fluid sound production is on the Genesis. I'd refer you to "The Fire Dragon" (Fire Dimension 2) from Chakan the Forever Man, and "Mojo's Future Crush" from X-Men. Now go listen to, oh, say, "Aquasphere Surface" from Xardion on SNES. Now, you may vastly prefer the sound of the latter - and that's fine. But even still, you should still be able to see how much more wooden the sound is on it, how it's very obviously made of small clips of sound reused over and over, rather than the sweeping ooze that is the Genesis sound generation.
Also, notice how when there is richness to SNES sound, like there is in that Xardion track how it comes in the form of mud in the bass. Compare that Xardion track to "Cycle 1" from Streets of Rage 3, or "Spin on the Bridge" from Streets of Rage 2, "Alien's Den", or "The Hard Corps" from Contra Hard Corps, or either Sisyphus or Casey Jones stage from TMNT TF, and observe just how much tighter and crisper, cleaner, and punchier the bass is on the Genesis. To cross reference, go back to Simon Belmont's Theme from Super Castlevania IV for muddy bass on the SNES (as well as how wooden the instruments are, and how much flatter and less crispy/dazzling the high and mid instruments are). For cross reference on how much crisper and dazzling the Genesis highs and mids are, stay with Castlevania, but jump over to Bloodlines. Listen to the Password screen. So much brighter, and more dazzling, and crisper. Also, the voices are much more fluid and less wooden. Even on tracks that are thin and reedy on the Genesis, such as "Grass Land" from Burning Force or "BGM 2" from Arnold Palmer Golf, the tracks are still crisper, brighter, and more dazzling.
Look, the point isn't to get you to prefer the Genesis sound, nor is it to attempt to argue that Genesis sound is holistically objectively superior to SNES sound. I still maintain that they're that stalemate, that draw. But while virtually everybody and their grandmothers are aware of the ways in which the SNES sound system is better (and it's TRULY better in those ways), not everyone recognizes or appreciates the ways in which the Genesis sound system is better than the SNES (and it too is TRULY better in those ways). I do hope that I've at least accomplished that much.
As far as graphics, games that use high resolution as well as sprites that are more detailed, and "bigger enough" to still look bigger even though the resolution is higher are also replete. Shinobi 3, Alterred Beast, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage 2 and 3, Sonic (obviously) even things like Puggsy, Sword of Sodan, X-Men and especially X-Men 2, and on and on and on and on and on. We were talking about Mortal Kombat. Well, compare full screen stills of Mortal Kombat II. The sprites are actually BIGGER and more detailed on the Genesis version, even AFTER the resolution thing. Once again forced perspective comes into play, because the characters "stand" lower on the screen in the Genesis version, and the health bars are smaller and pushed higher up to the top. But still, with bigger sprites and bigger energy bars, the forced perspective effect is much less strong for the sequel.
Why didn't they make the sprites bigger on MK1? Dunno. But it wasn't a hardware limitation. As delf said, the MK1 port was rough around the edges. Had they placed them on the screen where the SNES characters were, it wouldn't have really mattered because the forced perspective thing would go away. Want examples of sprites flying everywhere, just pick a shooter or a run and gun with your eyes closed and you'll find one. Gunstar Heroes, anybody? Also, consider how blazing fast and action packed that game is.
Of course, just because the Genesis COULD and USUALLY did blow way past SNES in terms of sprites and character sprite size doesn't mean it ALWAYS did. Both the Genesis Contra and Castlevania games used smaller, and less detailed character sprites than their SNES counterparts for no apparent reason. Just because you CAN outperform the other system doesn't mean you're ALWAYS gonna. Not every SNES game blows past its Genesis counterpart in terms of on-screen colors, for instance. Not every SNES game uses mode 7. And so on.
The point is that the rule is well established. SNES owns colors, special effects and clean AV. Genesis owns large, detailed, fast moving, plenteous sprites and amazing animations. And both of these can be said objectively and irrefutably. As I said in my initial comment, we treat "more advanced" and "more powerful" as inseparable propositions, but I think SNES vs Genesis conclusively disproves the inseparability of the two, as I think those summarize the differences between the two systems PERFECTLY! SNES is "more advanced", whereas Genesis is "more powerful".
Which one ultimately yields better results out of that distinction is pretty much entirely relegated to the realm of the subjective (where I'm really trying very hard NOT to go), but I hope I've at least demonstrated for you that not only in graphics and processing power, but also in sound, Genesis is "more powerful". I don't need to demonstrate that SNES is "more advanced" in these ways......because everyone already knows that. I need instead to only prove what is less widely realized, and I hope that that's what I've accomplished here tonight.
But all this is really all to all our advantages today as we can reap the benefits and enjoyment of both. Consider: BOTH Donkey Kong Country - AND - Vectorman would probably have been worse had they been on the other platform.
Cheers!
P.s. I've been avoiding PC Engine / Turbografx16 talk deliberately because I wanted to fully flesh out the Genesis / SNES thing, and then, if we weren't all burned out on the conversation by then, bring the TG16 in afterwards. BTW: This is exact same way that I dealt with it in my articles. The first several installments dealt directly with SNES vs Genesis, and then once that ran its course, I brought in the TG16 and compared it to both of them.
p.p.s. I would not mind at all sharing the articles with you. The site they were on has been taken down, and I don't believe it's back up. So, do this: find my Nerd Noise Radio FB page, message me on there, tell me you're Dar (or Delf.....or anyone else who's interested) from the NintendoLife comments section, and I'll send you the word.doc containing all the installments, plus a few other bonuses.
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@sdelfin haha! Looks like we crossed each other in the mail! I'll read your reply, you read mine, and then let's compare notes!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@Darasin I'll refer you back to my main comment on this article for but a brief summary of the tech analysis of the two systems. And if you'd like the full treatment, gimme an email and I'll email you the entire 60 pages. The idea that the SNES is objectively superior holistically is simply untenable.
To your example of Mortal Kombat and other multi-platform games, take another look. The sprites do appear - at a glance - to be much bigger on the SNES, and they do because they fill up so much more of the background. Take another look at the background, though. The SNES background is letterboxed, occupying only a portion of the screen. The Genesis background? Fills the whole screen. It's a matter of forced perspective.
As it concerns supposedly smaller assets on other Genesis multiplatform games: what happens to the individual icons on your computer's desktop when you raise the resolution? They appear to get smaller, yes? But are they actually getting smaller? No, they're still 64x64 pixels (or whatever the case may be). They're the same size. There's just more room for more icons and 64x64 pixels takes up a smaller percentage of the whole. That's what you're noticing on Genesis and misinterpreting it as smaller characters. That's how I interpreted it in the 90's as well - until I knew better. A great example of just what I'm talking about is Wolfchild - or hell, Mortal Kombat. Go give that those another look.
Even more interesting are games like Bram Stoker's Dracula, where the character looks similarly sized on both, but when you do direct sprite comparisons on them, the sprites are actually bigger and more detailed on Genesis. That's quite common. Hyperstone Heist / Turtles in Time is another such example. Then you have examples where the sprites are WAY bigger on Genesis, like Fatal Fury, or.....I almost feel bad about bringing this one up, but Samurai Showdown.
But even then, discussing multiplatform games is kinda silly when discussing comparative hardware to begin with, because they usually play to the lowest common denominators. Consider this: PS3 is documented as being more powerful than XB360. But 99% of the time, the multiplatform games looked better on XB360. Why? Because the XB360 hardware architecture was a more standard design where PS3 was crazy weird architecture. So rather than wasting all this time and money getting the most out of the PS3, they just did a hack port to meet minimum standards and off you went.
So, in the case of the 16-bit generation, whichever system the game was originally designed on is almost without fail going to be the better looking/sounding game. Most of those games were designed around SNES. Plus, in order for the two to be playing in the same ballpark, a number of key Genesis advantages had to be surrendered to bring it down, yes, DOWN to SNES level. Basing your understanding on SNES vs Genesis hardware on the multiplatforms, then, is like tying the hands behind the Genesis's back and then having them fight, and then trying to say that it's because the SNES is the better fighter. It really is THAT ridiculous. Go compare console exclusives instead and then you'll see the benefits of both systems on display. Huge, detailed characters, and/or huge, detailed backgrounds and/or sprites everywhere - and all of it running at a faster, smoother, more fluid pace than SNES. Then it becomes impossible to say "well this one is clearly better" because they both outdo each other in so many contrasting ways.
Now, as far as sound, they both sound very artificial (so we can drop that as an argument against Genesis when they're both guilty). But they're artificial in different ways. The SNES samples pre-recorded sound clips of various things, but the samples are so small, that they are not only really lo-fi, but also so short that they don't allow for much nuance. It's much more wooden. And it's muffly due to forced Gaussian interpolation audio anti-aliasing. The Genesis is an actual live synthesizer, so it's going to have some limits a sampler won't, but it will also have a freedom that a sampler using very small samplers won't. Listen to the guitar solos in stages 1 and 3 of Wolfchild, and pay attention to just how much those sounds morph in the sustain. It's very fluid, very dynamic. Or, even though they're generally ugly sounds, listen to how mutable and flexible and fluid the sound effects are in Chakan the Forever Man. Due to the RAM/ROM constraints of the SNES and the really small samples it used as a result, that kind of this was just not feasible on the system.
This is why I called SNES sound like legos and Genesis sound like Play-Doh. You can truly sculpt your sounds on Genesis in a way that you cannot on SNES. And it shows! And for what it's worth, the Genesis is just much louder when all variables are equal producing, in the final analysis, something that just comes off as something with just so much power behind it. The SNES seems kinda limp by comparison.
Whether you personally prefer the sound of soft, muffly sampling on SNES or the raw synthesis of the Genesis is a matter of subjective preference, not objective fact. If you vastly prefer the SNES sound to the point that Genesis sound sounds silly to you, then you probably don't like a lot of 80's pop, or the sounds of the arcade or 70's avant garde electronics either, but that's okay. It has no bearing on the actual hardware merits of the system one way or the other what sounds you like or dislike. It's just you preferring what you prefer. I vastly prefer the sound of the Genesis. Now, I'm not so blinded by fanboyism, though, that I certainly can't think of several examples where I break from that norm and prefer the sound of the SNES. But as a rule, I hugely prefer the Sega Sound.
My point is simply that when weighing objective pros and cons, neither your preferences nor mine mean a damned thing. They're just a distraction.
I've given a small sliver of the case for a sonic stalemate here in this reply to you, a bigger sliver in my original comment, and have upon your request my 60-page series of articles that goes as granular as I am personally capable of going. I would refer you to those. Also, in the most obvious cases of the SNES version of a soundtrack being clearly better, what's the common thread? The game was designed for SNES and then hack ported to Genesis later. You've just tied the Genny's hands behind its back again.
Look, my argument is not that "Genesis is clearly objectively superior to SNES". There are too many SNES advantages for that to be tenable. My arguement instead is that "SNES is -NOT- clearly objectively superior to Genesis". There are too many Genesis advantages for that to be tenable. They are a wash, a tie, a stalemate, a draw, they brick wall each other. They're apples and oranges. Will you attempt to declare one of those objectively superior? I say you have equal luck with apples and oranges as you do with Sega and SNES. The level of tech analysis in your arguments indicate that you are approaching the matter and able to analyze the data in the year 2017 at age whatever you are at more or less the exact same level that I did in the year 1993 at the age of 13. My best advice: go back and take a closer look, and you may find yourself blown away - as I did. It was like having scales fall out of my eyes. Only beware: what is seen cannot be unseen!
Cheers!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@Krillin_ I was the opposite. I grew up with both systems, but was Pro-SNES. But a lot of that had to do with old loyalties carried over from the NES for one, and not knowing how to properly interpret the spec sheets for two, coming to the belief that the hardware was very lopsided in favor of SNES.
In the early 2000's when I was in my early 20's, though, and I began to understand the specs better, I began to see things in a different light. Part of this was through seeing and hearing things I had missed before, and part of it was through allowing myself to believe as true things that my eyes and ears were telling me all along, but I had just chocked up to my own craziness, since after all, "the spec sheet can't be wrong", right? Well, right, it can't be outright wrong. But that doesn't mean it can't be extremely misleading.
Today, I maintain most unwaveringly that the two are a stalemate hardware-wise. That they're just too "give and take" for the idea of an overall winner to be declarable. Not that they're anything alike, but that they come out a draw in the end. I won't re-make the argument for that, but if you wish to hear a summary of it, see my initial comment further down the comments thread.
But that's me speaking objectively. In terms of subjectivity, just my own personal tastes and preference, the way I worded my intro undoubtedly blew the punchline, but I gradually became Pro-Genesis. And I remain so to this day. And not just in the overall either, but down to the graphics, the sound...everything! While I still love SNES, call it one of my favorite systems of all time, consider it utterly indispensable, and genuinely wish I could be as neutral and impartial subjectively as I am objectively, I just can't. I'm #TeamGenesis all the way now.....and it's no longer even a close one.
Cheers!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@sdelfin oh shoot! I meant to say this in my last reply, but didn't:
I came THIS close to going into the SNES sprites thing. I did go into it in my full series of articles, but felt like it might be a little too "into the weeds" when trying to summarize, especially since such thing falls under the general umbrella category of "Genesis is better with sprites", which WAS included in the comment.
But I'm very glad you lit on that issue as it's one that's so often overlooked, when it's a very significant factor.
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@sdelfin Excellent! Thank you very much for the compliment, and glad you liked what you read. There's such a big risk of "tl;dr" when one makes a long post like mine, so I'm honored that you took the time to engage. I'm also glad to chat with another "TeamBlue", and I will gladly track down your comment and read it!
It's all the subtle and overt give and takes that makes the contest so fascinating and tirelessly interesting and engaging for me. How boring would it be if we could just simply say off the cuff that the one or the other is better. No, I like it much better this way. And as others have highlighted, the two systems actually complement each other really quite well, don't they? Who REALLY wins here? The one who has both - ESPECIALLY the one who grew up having both and got to really "live them out".
We got our SNES for Christmas 1992 (I would've been 12 at the time and just about to turn 13). The Genesis didn't come that much later, on a random September day in 1993. I was actually quite pro-SNES back in the day. But I also didn't know how to properly interpret the spec sheets. The spec sheets create the illusion of a very lopsided contest, when the reality couldn't have been further from that.
As I began to really understand the specs in the early 2000s, as an early 20-something, along with it began to come a change in perspective, in part, noticing things I hadn't noticed before, and in part, allowing myself to accept as true the things my eyes and ears had been telling me all along, but that I had previously just chocked up to my own craziness, since, after all, "the spec sheet can't be wrong".
By the late 2000's the "transformation" was complete, and I preferred Genesis across the board, graphics, sound, games, design, interface, "persona"....everything. And you know what? I still do. I run a video game music podcast (called, unsurprisingly, "Nerd Noise Radio"), and I do try to represent both systems with about equal fairness. But I know that, just personally, I'm loving life more when Genesis and PC Engine music is playing. That's more my "me time".
Actually, this creates something of an interesting tension for me as a gamer - as in the current gen, I'm so passionately pro-Nintendo, such a rabid proponent of especially the Switch, and to a lesser degree, the 3DS (I'm also a big PC gamer as well) and outside the 4th and 5th gen, and maaaaaaaaaaybe the WiiU, Nintendo has either won or tied for the win in every generation for me. Big picture, I'm Nintendo first, but then comes the tension in that in the 16-bit era - the era that I STILL consider to be my favorite, most important era, not only does Nintendo not win that era for me.....but it even comes in dead last! A weird tension! I'm such a Sega kid - and yet, such a Nintendo guy as well.
Cheers!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
@BLP_Software You just said in two sentences what it took me a page and a half to say!
I agree with you 100%!
Re: UK Media Outlet The Guardian Aims To Settle The 16-bit Console War Forever
It's a stalemate.
I wrote 60 pages on this subject in 2012 over the span of 8 articles. I hope you'll forgive a 1 1/2 page long comment that while insanely long for a comment is still an amazingly concise summary of those 60 pages!
Here we go!
The SNES had distinct hardware advantages and distinct disadvantages relative the Genesis and vice versa. And this is true across the board, graphics, sound, gameplay, everything. I think to attempt to definitively declare an absolute winner will not yield a satisfactory conclusion, and will probably leave just as much controversy in its wake as existed before - if not even more so, as one thing that I'm sure this will do is reignite the debate. I'm hoping very strongly that this panel will be wise enough to not attempt to create sensation by forcing a conclusion for winner.....when quite simply.....there isn't one....
That's not to say it's pointless to discuss the hardware, or that it's impossible to make distinctions between them including micro-proclamations ("better at X", "worse at Y"). In my opinion, comparative hardware studies from the 4th generation may well be the very single most interesting discussion in all of video game history - bar none! Add in PC Engine / Turbografx16 and things get even zestier! (I'll leave PCE out for the purposes of this comment, though).
So if my position is an ironclad commitment to an objective stalemate (draw, tie, wash....pick your term) between the two systems in terms of overall hardware, but that distinctions can - and SHOULD be made between them, what kind of distinctions would I draw? This:
I think we tend to treat the terms "more advanced" and "more powerful" as synonyms - or at least as inseparable propositions, as in "if it's more advanced, that means it's more powerful", or "if it's more powerful, that means it's more advanced." Well, I think the SNES be Genesis debate proves that the two are not necessarily inseparable after all as if I were to super-simplify, I think that the "advanced" / "powerful" divide is precisely where this debate comes down to. SNES is "more advanced" than Genesis, and Genesis is "more powerful" than SNES. And I think both assertions are incontrovertible. SNES uses more forward-thinking technologies, but skimps in raw power to keep price competitive, where Genesis doesn't go for anything flashy, but is a beast!
The results of this? Well, this is not a comprehensive list at all, but the major points are that SNES graphics are crisper, cleaner, more colorful, and support a number of special effects that Genesis didn't, such as transparency, and the full suite of "modes", including the world famous "mode 7". And the Genesis in return, ran in higher resolution, with larger, more detailed, more simultaneously plenteous sprites, and much more fluid, faster-paced animation. SNES visuals, one could argue, were more polished, but there was so much less going on in them, smaller, less detailed, more woodenly animated character and environment sprites, and moving at a more plodding pace at that. So, we see "more advanced" vs "more powerful" playing out here and holding each other to a draw.
As far as the sound, the SNES featured an 8-channel ADPCM sampler which was much more forward-thinking than the tag team of the 6-Channel FM synthesis chip and 4-channel PSG chips found in the Genesis - the latter one being a carryover from the 8-bit Sega Mastersystem. And it had it's definite advantages: a sampler can sample anything, string and orchestra sections, guitar and bass, even synths. It could go anywhere, be anything.....well, sorta. The SPC700 sampler chip itself wasn't that limited, but the rest of the system held it back. Between RAM and ROM limitations the system could really only traffic in really small, low bitrate samples, and then pair that with forced anti-aliasing on the SPC700, and a simply terrible reverb, what you ended up with was wooden and/or muffly and/or sizzly lo-fi sounds. It was like building sound out of legos. Despite the SPC700's channels being capable of more hi-fi sounds than the YM2612, because of all the other restrictions, the real-life results were actually the polar opppsite. Also, yes, the SNES had way more audio RAM than Genesis. But a sampler requires soooo much more memory than FM and PSG that SNES starves where Genesis doesn't. By contrast, Genesis was more limited to just what could be done with four sine-waves per channel over six channels, one of which could be sacrificed for a low-grade sampler channel, three square waves and a white noise channel. But it was completely unfettered in such pursuits. Besides, four-operator sine-based, eight algorithm FM is waaaaay more liberating and expressive than a lot of people think. In the right hands it could be used to amazing effect! In fact, in the hands of chiptune sceners in recent days, it's even succeeded in convincingly replicating SNES sampled sounds just using FM, and retaining the Genesis's advantages of being much more fluid, crisper, punchier, louder, fatter, more "raw", and "bigger" sounding! If making sound on SNES is building with legos, Genesis sound creation is play-doh. You can have amazing mutations and variations and morphing, sweeping sustains that could theoretically be matched by a sampler if the sample file was big enough and long enough to include all that, but which file sizes were not feasible on the SNES. So even here, we can see "more advanced" vs "more powerful", and see that though vastly different, even here they offer similarly quality experiences.
In the end, the SNES is "the gentleman" and Genesis is "the beast". But which one is BETTER? Overall, as I said from the start, neither one is. They're the ultimate stalemate. In micro, yes, I do believe we could say that the SNES is probably better suited for things like RPGs and special-effects fests, and Genesis is better suited for things like arcade action, shooters, brawlers, and intense platformers. But overall, the question of which is "better" can really only be answered in the realm of individual subjective personal preference. They offer such starkly different experiences. Which one is more to your tastes? Which one is stronger in the areas that matter most to you? Then on a subjective, personal tastes front, that's the better system for you, and in your world, is the winner for you. It's that amazingly complex - and also that amazingly simple. Hence why it's such a fascinating discussion!
So, which one wins in my own personal, little subjective world? Well, first let me say that I love both, feel they're both simply indispensable, and also wish deeply I could bring myself to be as subjectively neutral and impartial and unbiased as I am objectively. But yes, I do have a preference, a winner....and it doesn't just win, but wins by a significant margin.....my pick?.......Genesis does what Nintendon't! #TeamGenesis!
Cheers!
Re: Side-Scrolling Beat 'Em Up The TakeOver Is Punching Its Way To Switch
I would've vastly preferred more cartoony, Final Fight or Streets of Rage style character graphics to these Killer Instinct ones. But that's not enough to turn me off to the game if it's good enough. I'll be keeping an eye out. Actually, I suppose a I can just go do the Steam Easy Access thing and not wait.
Re: Feature: Basking in Nostalgia and '16-Bit' Goodness in Sonic Mania
I'm also glad that Thomas said what he said about this being like "the REAL Sonic 4" as I was thinking almost the exact same thing - that this is what Sonic 4 tried to be. Now, I liked Sonic 4 better than a lot of people did, I think, but even I can already tell that this is better! Yeah, I think I'm really gonna like this!
And unlike Binding of Isaac, which I bought just the other day, this game has a very very serious chance of causing me to break away from Miitopia's inexorable pull long enough to enjoy it. Isaac, I play for maybe 20 minutes at a time then drift back to Miitopia. I think it will be different here!
And yes, I think this game will be best on Switch! Well, in a sense I think it'll be the same on Switch as everywhere else. But what that means, then, is that the extra hardware advantages on the other platforms is forfeited, whereas the Switch's unique benefit of playing at home or on the go is maintained, making the Switch version (in my mind) a singularly obvious choice for multiplatform gamers to get on the order of "why the hell would I get it anywhere else....unless I'm just planning on getting it everywhere?"
Lastly, I'm glad to hear Thomas talk on a Nintendo site about being a Sega kid growing up. I had both a Genesis and a Super Nintendo growing up (SNES - Christmas 1992, Genesis - some random day early September 1993). And while I definitely liked both, back in the day I was totally Team SNES. But in my early 20's (the early 2000s - making Thomas and I of similar age, it seems), a strange thing happened, and I began to feel myself being pulled in the opposite direction. In time I defected, and now, as it concerns the 4th generation of gaming, I'm absolutely Team Genesis (and Team Turbografx).
It actually creates something of an interesting tension in my gaming life: looking big picture at the history of gaming when taken as a whole, Nintendo is tops in my opinion. And in the modern gaming scene in which we live today, I'm exceedingly Team Nintendo (well, and Team PC, I suppose)....and yet, when we go back to the 4th gen, which I STILL regard as my personal favorite era, Nintendo actually comes in last place for me. So, Nintendo, except for where it counts the most I suppose I also prefer the original Playstation over the N64), but otherwise (and maybe WiiU), Nintendo wins or ties in every gaming generation for me. Man, but that Sega Genesis, tho.
Cheers!
Re: Feature: Basking in Nostalgia and '16-Bit' Goodness in Sonic Mania
Just got it this morning, and only had a little time to play it on the ride in to work. Though my impressions can only be called "very preliminary" since I only got to Green Hill Zone -Act 2, those preliminary impressions are that Sonic Mania is ABSOLUTELY AMAZIZING!!! It's like the ultimate ROM hack in all the perfectly right ways!
Re: Playtonic Gives Update On Yooka-Laylee For Switch
Am I holding off on it on Switch? Well, yes and no and maybe. What do I mean by that? This: that I'm not 100% certain yet whether I'm going to buy the game in the first place. HOWEVER, should I buy the game, it'll DEFINITELY be on Switch. So news on its release is still something aim looking forward to receiving. Bring it on!
Re: Video: See the Big Difference Between Monster Hunter XX on Switch and 3DS
The fruit of being able to judge the output of a game by the capabilities and limitations of the host hardware rather than just by simple surface observations - an interesting paradox emerges:
The Switch version looks WAAAAAAAAY -"BETTER"-, I doubt we're gonna find anybody who would disagree with that one......and yet.....I think I've gotta say that the 3DS actually looks -"MORE IMPRESSIVE"- all things considered.
1080p on the Switch is nice. Don't get me wrong But, I dunno, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that super duper duper pushes the Switch hardware. Going just by the video, neither the textures or poly models look very impressive, and neither do the physics.
Now, we all know the Switch wasn't built to be a powerhouse, but I think more recent games have made a very strong case at least for the argument that the hardware is capable of producing things that remind us more of XB1 than of WiiU - and yet - this looks like a 1080p upscale of an XBox360 game. Not very impressive even by the Switch's relatively modest standards.
By contrast, the 3DS is sooooooo much lower resolution, and the textures are sooooooo much more basic and blurry/choppy than the Switch. But the poly models themselves seem the same, the frames seem basically the same, and the non-graphical components of the game seem to be....well.....identical. Generally when I play a 3DS game it seems like a more basic, stripped down thing - different game with the same name. Not so here. The game at least appears to play EXACTLY the same as its more powerful sibling. Not something I'm used to. So that alone impresses me!
Actually, I realize this is quite an imperfect comparison, but the difference here reminds me VERY much of PC games from the late 90's such as Quake 2 where you could choose between "hardware rendering" and "software rendering". The graphics quality difference was night and day, with hardware being way way waaaaaaaaaaaaay better....but it was the same game. It played the same, it worked the same, and all of that. So, the Switch version reminds me of hardware rendering and the 3DS version reminds me of software rendering.
But which one performed better to my eyes relative my expectations for them on the hardware given the capabilities thereof? I kinda think I've gotta say 3DS here, fellas!
Cheers!
Re: Nintendo Unveils Gorgeous Samus Edition New Nintendo 3DS XL
Ooh!!! I think my wife may just get that Galaxy Edition N3DSXL she's been wanting since I got mine! Because I may just give it to her in exchange for helping me get this gorgeous thing!!! Glorious!!
Re: Splatoon 2 and Miitopia Hold Top 10 Places in UK Charts
Miitopia and Splatoon 2 are the top two most heavily played games in my house right now - particularly Miitopia!
We rescued "Princess Mr. T", and the conflict between "her" competing suitors, "Kanye West" and "Mike Pence" has been resolved......Mike Pence got "the girl". Also, my party was kidnapped, and I had to form a new one. This new party includes, among others, Reggie Fils Aime, and his war cry?......"SEGA!!!"
Interestingly, since it was mentioned in the article, the Crash remaster on PS4, I bought it on the same day that I bought Miitopia (Miitopia launch day), but it has seen much much less play than the aforementioned game, or even ARMS, for that matter. That one's still getting a lot of love from yours truly!
Cheers!
Re: Review: Miitopia (3DS)
UPDATE: I got this on launch day, as I had said I would, and it DOES NOT DISAPPOINT!! It's simple without being TOO simple. Basically, it just feels streamlined - but in a good way!
Separate from the game itself is a companion app called "Miitopia casting call". It lets you cast four party member roles, the role of the Dark Lord, the role of the King, and the role of the Princess, then lets you watch trailers with those characters in place.
That's a blast in and of itself! I made some really zany cast choices which I'll elaborate on below, and so gaffaws rang out from all quadrants of our household that night!
Only drawback to the casting call app is that I could not figure out a way to port my work in it over to the real game. Also, if you make a Mii from scratch in it, it doesn't automatically save it, so you'll have to make it from scratch all over again in the main game if you wish to use them.
So, those of you who played with the casting call, who did you cast in which roles? Me? I did a mix of family and famous characters (mix of real people and fictional). I was the knight, my wife, Jodee was the mage, and our kiddo, Chloe, was the cat. I cast Lord Voldemort for the role of cleric (and he hit it off with my wife a little too well!). The King I cast as Charlie Brown ("Charlie B.")......and now for the real fun!!! My casting call featured The Dark Lord.....BOB ROSS (Yes! The Happy Trees guy!) And for the Princess?.......MR. T!!!
Is was a RIOT!!! Now how about you?
p.s. My wife asked me why I cast her as a mage, and without missing a beat, I answered "because you can be a real witch sometimes!" Gratefully, she knew I was only kidding!......or was I?
Re: Review: Miitopia (3DS)
This review made the game sound so endearing that I went out and bought it on launch day (yesterday). Now, while I haven't had a chance to play it yet, I have very high hopes for what it will be! Looking forward to it!!!
Re: Poll: The New Nintendo 2DS XL is Out This Week - Are You Tempted?
So, I love the idea of the N2DSXL, like the look well enough, and would be VERY tempted to get one....
......were it not for one teensy detail.......
I just got an N3DSXL a couple weeks ago - the galaxy edition. So a I have no personal use for this new system whatsoever.
However, I still think it's a great idea for the device family, a reasonable price, everything my N3DSXL is except for one non-essential feature, and reasonably attractive in its aesthetics. What's not to like about it?
I would like to maybe get one for my wife (who just inherited my old original spec 3DSXL) and/or for the kiddo, who is stuck all the way back at the DSi! So maybe Christmas time will get them some sales. We'll see.
Cheers!
Re: Update For Minecraft: Nintendo Switch Edition Enables 1080p Display When Docked
So I'm just now starting to really get into Minecraft recently. All I've played so far has been Survival Mode. It seems like most of these fixes are for other modes and probably won't impact me directly til I start to branch out. And who knows when that'll be.
However, that this kind of level of support is coming to the Switch version of Minecraft makes me very happy all the same. And short of Better Together and the Super Duper graphics pack or whatever it's called, the thing I've been most anxious for was the 1080p upgrade, so i'm very very happy about that.
I mean, yes, the game will look better in 1080 and better is always....well....better. But the biggest reason I'm happy about 1080 when docked is not as much for the improved visuals themselves, but rather because I always want to see games perform better in the dock than undocked. It's a waste of power when there's no difference, and it also begins to wear on the very magic of the Switch. The Switch is a console/portable hybrid, and that's the true magic. When you reap no benefit from docked mode, it becomes harder to see the Switch as two (or more) systems in one with two different specs, two different levels of performance potential, and two different experiences beyond big screen and small screen. In other words, the narrative "portable/console hybrid" becomes harder and harder to believe, and is increasingly replaced with the notion of "portable with a clever dock for rebroadcasting on the screen". Much less impressive/attractive a narrative.
While the performance vector between Switch docked and Switch undocked is much smaller than the performance vector between XB1 and the upcoming XB1X, nor is there quite as much at stake for Nintendo, but in once sense the two modes of the Switch is the same as the two different XBox consoles - an upper, more impressive software layer that developers have to make for little or no extra money, and a tremendous "erosive" potential from developers that land along a spectrum of some possible combination of lazy, and/or inept, and/or unscrupulously profiteering who will either not bother with the upper layer at all, or do so only superficially, and then the upper form will be undermined.
In that far, even if no further, the docked/undocked thing on the Switch is just like PS4/PS4Pro, or XB1/XB1X. If we're gonna preserve the Pro, the 1X, and the extra enhanced benefits from the dock mode, then we have to see things taking advantage of them. Otherwise they'll just fade away. The first two into oblivion, the last one into irrelevance.
So it makes me very happy when we see developers make meaningful Pro and [in the future] 1X layers....and just the same is true for specifically docked layers for Switch!
I'm glad 4J and/or Mojang and/or Microsoft didn't give up until this issue was fixed! They're part of the solution now, rather than being part of the problem as before.....
....and I very much look forward to seeing what my world will look like with the crisper, richer looking visuals!
Cheers!!
Re: Splatoon 2's Next Splatfest Tackles A Challenging Choice Of Condiments
I imagine this one being even more lopsided than ice cream vs cake. However, where I was with the majority last time, favoring ice cream, I'm gonna go with what I envision to be the minority this time, and join team Mayo!!!!! Yeah baby!! Of course, I am a bit plus-sized, so maybe the one has something to do with the other.
Re: Ninterview: Joseph "Stampy Cat" Garrett On Minecraft's Future And Why Switch Is His Favourite Nintendo Console
You know, the kiddo had been trying to get me into Minecraft for years with no success. I'm past the key age demographic, and it just made no sense to me. The first chip in that armor was after building the gaming PC (Kaby Lake i5 / GTX1070, etc), and discovering that I could play with Chloe in real time as she was on the Mrs.' much humbler all-in-one computer downstairs. I was doing it for her and not for me, but I did sorta see a faint glimmer of the potential magic of the game while we were playing! Gradually, I became a little less reluctant to fire the game up with her.
But what was it that pushed me over the edge into truly liking the game? What has caused me to be almost inseparable from the game for the next few weeks, and still drop in on it not infrequently? The Switch version, that's what. The flexibility of it! The not having to put it down when I stepped away from the TV on the one hand, while also not being bound to the small screen when I didn't want to be! I could have it both ways! Ah, the magic of the Switch!
Now, when better together comes out, I'll probably spend a lot more time playing on the PC for the better graphics, particularly, for the better draw distance. But until then, with all the work I've put into my world on the Switch, it's probably pretty much the only version of the game I'll play since everywhere else would be like starting over.....
......I still haven't gotten into the whole Minecraft YouTube videos thing, and frankly, I may just hang onto my crusty old man card and tell them all to get off my lawn (well, to quote Monty Python, "I'm 37, I'm not old!"). But on the other hand, I NEVER envisioned a day where I'd actually like Minecraft...so I guess you never truly know.
Chloe never envisioned a day where I'd like Minecraft either, and she's really excited about it. It's nice when you can make your kids happy like that.
Re: Oddworld Creator Lorne Lanning "Has No Faith" In Switch
Well, for whatever much or little this is worth of me to say, my immediate reaction to this is to think how much of an impact Switch has made to gaming in just four months vs what kind of impact Oddworld has made to gaming over two decades, and pretty much just write Mr. Lanning off.
Time will tell, of course. But rather than having a ring of validity to it to my ears, it sounds more like having a ring of butthurt. But I guess Lanning and Switch believers like myself will just have to let the courts of hindsight settle the dispute for us.
Til then, my Switch will get a lot more use than his games.
Cheers!
Re: Random: Here's The Reason Why The North American Super NES Looks So Different
Well, neither in my opinion were unattractive systems. But I definitely do prefer the look of the American version. It's, I dunno, more stately and substantial looking to my eyes. More elegant. The JP/EU version looks more unremarkable. Plus, the big swath of darker gray in the middle isn't super attractive in my opinion (though the colored buttons on the controller sure are!)
But again, this is purely subjective preference over matters of simple aesthetic. It's definitely not anything to get into a shooting match over. If you prefer the look of the JP/EU version, more power to you. At the end of the day, as I said, they're both attractive systems.
Cheers!