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Interview: Pro Smash Competitors Armada & Mew2King on Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Posted by Morgan Sleeper

"The game’s graphics are on a completely different level"

With Evo 2014 around the corner, competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee players are gearing up for one of the year's biggest events.

Of course, the new Super Smash Bros. for Wii U will potentially become a competitive mainstay in future years. With that in mind now's a good time to share a mini-interview that we conducted at E3, with competitive Smash players Armada and mew2king, who'd both spend some time checking out the new title at the show. Don't forget to check out our previous interview with mew2king, too.


First of all, what do you guys think of the new Wii U game?

Armada: I think it looks pretty good. I think it’s very fun with a lot of new characters, and the stages and graphics look amazing. So that’s really good, and fun to see.

Mew2King: Yeah, the game’s graphics are on a completely different level. Pretty much, he said what I was going to say.

What are your favourite characters to play as in this new version?

Armada: I haven’t been playing that many characters so far, since I’ve only been playing for maybe 40 minutes, but so far Zero Suit Samus is my favourite character. She’s very fast, and I feel pretty free when I play her, so that’s my favourite character for sure now.

Mew2King: Yeah, Zero Suit’s amazing in this game, though I’m using Kirby right now because he’s a very easy transition from Smash 64 Kirby, and he’s who I play in that game. It’s an easy carryover - so that’s what I’ve been using in the past 40 minutes I’ve been playing.

Have you noticed any technical changes from past Smash Bros. games that will make a difference in terms of competitive play? And as competitive players, is there anything you’d like to see done differently in the series?

Armada: One thing I did notice when I was playing was that the landing lag was a bit longer than in previous Smash games, so after you land an aerial you can’t move as fast afterwards. An improvement could be to reduce some of the lag to make the characters move faster, which also would mean that you could use a lot more aerials while playing. That’s always been a huge part of previous Smash games, and part of what makes it so special as a franchise, in my opinion.

Mew2King: I completely agree - the landing lag is definitely the number one thing. Kirby in this game seems pretty good with the landing lag - there’s some lag, but it’s not very significant. I think if more characters went a similar route to how Kirby plays, like with his down air or back air, the game’s tension would be increased. I would also add directional influence, which is where you can control which way you get hit by using the control stick. But if there’s one thing that matters above all, it’s definitely the landing lag.

Do you have any advice for our readers who might be interested in getting into competitive Smash Bros., either to play themselves or just to start watching?

Mew2King: There’s a website called Smash Boards, and most all of the tournaments are there - click on ‘Forums’, go to ‘Tournament listings’, and you’ll see all the tournaments. Also, if you check out the Smash Documentary on YouTube there are a lot of links in the video description which can send you to different areas, and there’s also a Reddit thread for each Facebook group. So using that and Smash Boards, you can find a lot of information.

Armada: And on Twitch, you can find VGBoot Camp and Clash Tournaments. There are huge tournaments every single weekend, streamed mostly by those channels but also by a lot of others, so if you want to start watching before going to tournaments, I recommend those two streams.

Mew2King: Also, my friend Sky is going to be hosting tournaments in Southern California. His Twitch channel is Sky_mp3, and I’ll be streaming there with him, along with my own channel.

Have either of you gotten a chance to check out any other games on the E3 show floor?

Mew2King: To be honest, we’ve mostly been doing interviews, hanging out with friends, and playing some Smash Bros. We also got to watch the Invitational, and I got to cheer on my friend ZeRo - he’s one of my best friends and I’m really glad he won!

Are there any new Nintendo games you’re looking forward to checking out if you get the chance?

Mew2King: Mario Maker.

Armada: Same for me!


Are you looking forward to Evo, and are you at all concerned — or even pleased — about the potential of a longer landing lag in the new Smash Bros. entry on Wii U? Let us know in the comments below.

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User Comments (80)

CrabGats

#1

CrabGats said:

Well, when all you play is a game from 2001, of course the graphics are going to appear to be on a completely different level.

No, but Mew2King joshing aside, they had some fair criticisms on the game, if what they said was true, I'd definitely like to see them fix that stuff. Or at least add back L cancelling.

Luigifan141

#5

Luigifan141 said:

@CaviarMeths Mew2King plays 64, Brawl, Project M, and wants to also pick up Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS. Armanda also plays Brawl and Project M. They are definitely not purists.

Jazzer94

#6

Jazzer94 said:

Yeah all the stuff about landing lag plus DI and throws has me a tad bummed but I still want to buy and play the game.

SphericalCrusher

#7

SphericalCrusher said:

Awesome! Great little interview! I follow both of these players a ton, so always good to see stuff like this. The landing lag for Smash 4 does concern me a little, but I think, like Mew2King said, it's going to be a little different for each character. (I'm scared Link's is going to be bad though lol). When I played Smash 4 at Smash Fest, the only one I noticed it on was Mega Man, and it really did not seem that bad. I was able to recover quick. As far as the graphics go, they're both really comparing it to Brawl and PM, and it is a huge step up from those games (as MK8 was to MKWii). I highly recommend watching "The Smash Brothers" documentary as they've mentioned. It's a 9 video series and really really good.

rjejr

#8

rjejr said:

Im most interested in what these "pro" players have to say about amiibo. Do they think they should be banned from competitve play or will they all be carrying around s bunch of them to every tournament?

SpookyMeths

#9

SpookyMeths said:

@Jazzer94 @Luigifan141 I'm aware, but they both prefer Melee competitively and it doesn't look like the Wii U version is going to change that.

In other other words, I guess. Didn't figure my comment was ambiguous enough to spark 2 "corrections" in 8 minutes. :P

Emblem

#10

Emblem said:

40mins of play is abit low to form a real opinion when you have played previous instalments for 1000s of hours. I'd prefer to hear what they have to say after at least a few hours or a day.

For me atleast what the E3 Smash tourney guys and gals have said hold alot more weight.

torotoid64

#11

torotoid64 said:

The games are not done yet so there's definitely room for improvement I think I read somewhere that the demos featured had slightly less knockback and the attacks were less damaging then how they will be in game I'll search for where I heard it

Luigifan141

#12

Luigifan141 said:

@CaviarMeths Even if they prefer Melee, they are still open minded about the ofher games, which many people don't give them credit for. If they don't like Smash 4, then at least they tried it instead of bashing it mindlessly.

Jock_Nerd

#13

Jock_Nerd said:

Landing lag... yeah, as a competitive player myself, I can see this being a real issue.

Sugar_Crunch_BD

#15

Sugar_Crunch_BD said:

Why is it that people on Nintendo Life always seem to dislike Mew2King. You guys should watch 'The smash brothers' a documentary on YouTube about competitive smash melee.

And on the Melee v Brawl front, while i prefer the game content for Brawl (more stages, subspace and more characters) Melee will always have the higher skill cap and is better for competitive play. Brawl is just too defensive and i hope that Sora change that for SSB4.

Starchaser02

#17

Starchaser02 said:

Great Interview I really hope the landing lag will be addressed alot of the competitive players plan playing smash 4. I also hope there will be a option to turn off stage hazards and better free movement or more movement options. Smash 4 can be a great game long as it doesn't make the same mistakes brawl did.

KeithTheGeek

#18

KeithTheGeek said:

@rjejr @Captain-Falcon To add on what you said, Amiibo spawns an AI controlled character that has custom sets and boosted stats. It could be interesting for fun battles but there's no way it could work in a tournament setting.

@vamkar What the landing lag means, as far as Smash Bros is concerned, is that you'll have a more difficult time following up on moves. In Smash 64 and Melee you could manually reduce landing lag so you could follow up with other attacks, in Brawl you couldn't. It's one of the many reasons Ganondorf is completely abysmal in Brawl.

Dr_Corndog

#19

Dr_Corndog said:

So looking forward to this game. Sometimes I get bummed by the "if it isn't Melee all over again it can't be fun" crowd, but thankfully most Smash fans are not like that. Smash 4 looks like it COULD be the best game in the series.

Sensei_Sendai

#20

Sensei_Sendai said:

Melee's still looking to be the competitive standard, but as long as this game's current problems are ironed out, it'll be a very good game in it's own right.

Pika2346

#21

Pika2346 said:

Don't see how landing lag is so terrible, doesn't it just add more opportunities to punish those high-speed aerial characters (Fox), therefore restoring kill potential lost by edge-guarding nerfs? I guess you'd just need to play it differently (but hey, who likes change?). I just hope it's more fast-paced than Brawl...

MixMasterMudkip

#22

MixMasterMudkip said:

@KeithTheGeek @rjejr @Captain-Falcon I've actually heard a lot of people want to have tournaments for them as well as money matches. Obliviously not amiibo verses player, but amiibo vs amiibo. I doubt it'll be a thing that is very often, but in this form I'm sure they'll receive competitive use. Which I think is great, because it would allow anyone to partake in competitive play in some form.

rdxgeno

#23

rdxgeno said:

Yep, that's going to be a problem for competitive gameplay. I'm not a melee "purist" and even I can that agree landing lag should be addressed immediately. I'm really looking forward to playing this game for years, so I hope that this doesn't hinder the overall quality and depth in competitive matches or even in casual matches with friends for that matter.

KeithTheGeek

#24

KeithTheGeek said:

@Pika2346 Fox's aerial moves don't have that much lag to begin with. A character like Bowser or Ganondorf, however, will hit the ground and be unable to do anything for a couple seconds. More than enough time to be caught by a faster character.

And change isn't really a bad thing. I know of a few things I like and dislike about the new game from what I played of it, for example, that were changes from Brawl and Melee. It's when change is trying to stifle a certain style of play that it becomes an issue, on both ends of the spectrum.

StaticWind

#25

StaticWind said:

"...he’s one of my best friends..."
I must have been living under a rock or something. I never knew. :P
It's nice to see their thoughts on the game, and I'm glad they're not as ridiculously dismissive as some that I've seen as of late.
In So Cal.? Sweet! I'll probably force myself to stop being lazy and go to one if it's not too far. I don't usually go to tournaments, so that needs to change.

bizcuthammer

#26

bizcuthammer said:

Since i really only care about playing these games for fun with family and friends, i don't really care if the competetive guys prefer Melee or of the landing lag is a bit slow. I'm sure thr game will be stupidly fun anyway, and a game my house will still be playing 4-5 years from now.

Senario

#27

Senario said:

@vamkar Right, whenever we have these types of topics it is always something that devolves into competitive play hate. They are clearly stating why one thing needs to be fixed on the long list of things that were questionable about the demo. And it is a fair criticism since lower landing lag evens out the playing field between heavy and light characters. They aren't attacking the game, they only want the game to be better competitively. It seems like a short interview but other things that should have been fixed include dash dancing (being able to cancel your initial dash animation into another dash or attack for fluidity of controlling your char.), momentum carrying over when you run and jump(like every other platformer), and the ledge being completely free when everybody has stupid far recoveries. From what Sakurai said in miiverse you would think the ledge worked in a way that gave people who are not off the stage, at lower percent, more time for invincibility when grabbing the ledge. Instead what is shown in practice is that if you are the second one to grab a ledge even if it is immediately after one person has...You get to grab it.

It boggles the mind that the way to win this particular game is to keep your opponent from recovering onto the stage yet this style of play is discouraged every entry. And that so far smash 4 seems odd in that unless a hit is a sure kill that sends your enemy rocketing at so and so percent you usually will live. Unlike previous entries where you didn't know if or when somebody would be able to kill you at low percents because they got skilled at balancing risk/reward in keeping you off the stage.

As the competitive community has said. It'll be a good game, you probably will have good fun with it with friends. But how long people will play it will be determined by competitive value. Is it going to be like the growing competitive melee scene which includes very enthusiastic people who absolutely love the game and the ability to play competitively? Or is it going to be like the brawl community where the game's competitive limitations are leading to the slow death of their competitive scene?

WanderingPB

#28

WanderingPB said:

I really wished Mew2king and Armada were part of the invitational they are amazing to watch and always look forward to hear more from them. I heard nintendo got alot of feed back from the players at the invitational and from people at E3 so im curious to what they're going to adjust for the final version

Sugar_Crunch_BD

#30

Sugar_Crunch_BD said:

I heard from a you-tuber (he mostly plays fighting games but he's not pro or anything) that a major issue with the E3 build is that defensive play is far more effective than ofensive. He told one of the Nintendo E3 staff people and they said a lot of people had that view. The problem seemed to be that it was way easier to counter than to attack, and so he always wanted to play defensively. He also said he played around 40 rounds of WiiU and 20 of 3DS

noctowl

#33

noctowl said:

I hope they and their fans stick to melee. Leave fun for those of us interested.

Silent

#34

Silent said:

@noctowl
How about I hope this game as little landing lag and has similar freedom of movement. Better yet, Sakurai could give us the option of different game speeds, with fast being similar to melee.

Jazzer94

#36

Jazzer94 said:

@noctowl Why do you assume that people who enjoy (yes enjoy) Melee (using advanced techniques) aren't having fun, do you realise how stupid that sounds.

bobbypaycheque

#39

bobbypaycheque said:

@Senario I get what you are saying about competitive play being their focus when playing the new Smash, but disagree that a game sees its longevity based on how much competitive players like it. Competitive players are only really interested in whether or not a game plays like the one they put the most time into, in this case Melee, because any time the new Smash differs from Melee it means they likely won't be as fast. Competitive players like Melee because it had a laundry list of exploits that made tasks faster and competitive players are all about speed. These guys basically want Melee in HD, and don't care about balance as much as they claim or accessibility for new players.

Nimious

#40

Nimious said:

@Jazzer94 Yeah, they play Project M...so more Melee.

They clearly hate the game. All they would rather talk about is graphics which really seems to be the one good thing about the game.

The mechanics have gotten even worse from Brawl amazingly. Grabs are now useless for 90% of the characters, short hop aerials are useless due to lag, there's no cancelling or DI anymore completely removing the agility and defensive side of Smash, etc.

The skill is continually being removed from the game with more dependency on character tier.

It's amazing how the game continues to regress. Sakurai said it himself, Melee was the most polished game he's ever made.

Shpongled_Mario

#43

Shpongled_Mario said:

@Senario If you're talking about edge guarding, I find it pathetic. I've fought people who will LITERALLY stay at the edge and try and knock you off and kill you at low percent and that's their whole strategy. My friends and I don't edge guard. If you get knocked off, and don't die, you get back on. We fight with honor! lol

Nimious

#44

Nimious said:

@bobbypaycheque I'm not a pro and I never got into Melee myself but I agree with M2K and Armada.

The issues are so apparent with Smash 4 that even a Brawl player will see them. Once again character tier looks to be more important than actual skill. That's as imbalanced as it gets.

As for getting over Melee that's funny. You obviously have not watched or kept up with the scene or else it would be obvious that Melee is STILL growing. aMSa's Yoshi just beat M2K last weekend at King's of Cali. He did it with a bunch of relatively new tech and through a once thought low tier character. Mango himself said the game has more to offer as powershields are the future.

The people who still play have not yet taken the game to its peak. That speaks for the depth of Melee.

By the way if these guys aren't pros then who is? You?

Shpongled_Mario

#45

Shpongled_Mario said:

@bobbypaycheque That's cause pros can see when something isn't up to par. Two systems later and it continues to get less competitive? It should have more techniques and such not less. If there is landing lag now and stuff like that, that's inexcusable. A new version should be better not worse. It's not about "not getting over melee" it's about realizing something is not as good as it should be. Of course, until the game is actually released, we don't really know if the new ones WILL be worse or not.

NINTENCHIP

#46

NINTENCHIP said:

Here's my thing: L-Cancel + Short hops + Fast falls = Shffl. Shffl made the game's skill cap skyrocket from where it'd otherwise be. Apparently, Sakurai thought that the best way to combat against Shffling without completely throwing things out of whack would simply be to remove the l. Now, they could speed up recovery frames, true, but for the most part, I like the auto-cancel from Brawl more than the L-Cancel (smooth landing) of Melee and 64. It makes it so that if you space your aerials, you get pretty much no landing lag at all, and if you're trying to abuse short hops, you get punished with landing lag. That's a very important case to make, because cutting recovery frames by short hopping and spamming aerials makes characters like Ganondorf much faster than they should be, which people are forgetting all too conveniently.

SockoMario

#47

SockoMario said:

@Nimious "They clearly hate the game."

"I think it looks pretty good. I think it’s very fun with a lot of new characters, and the stages and graphics look amazing. So that’s really good, and fun to see."

Okay.

Nimious

#48

Nimious said:

@SockoMario You actually think people ask competitive progamers for such casual responses to the game? I obviously meant they hated the game from a competitive viewpoint.

If they really liked it they would be talking about the positive aspects of the new mechanics and what they can do with it. Instead they'd much rather say it looks good as they struggle to find something positive to say about it.

Ever watch another pro-gamer talk about a sequel to the game they've played? This wasn't a positive response. M2K and Armada were as reserved as it gets.

bobbypaycheque

#50

bobbypaycheque said:

@Nimious None of the Super Smash games were ever designed to be broken down over decades in a organized competitive environment. They were, by the designers own admission, made to be accessible and fun. I mean, there aren't even any combos is SSB. It is all a single button press or right stick movement. I dabbled in Melee and Brawl local tournaments, but to be honest the games were clearly never designed for that. Few of the characters are viable competitively and frankly the outcome often comes down to luck, even among the best players, due to the unpredictable nature of damage in relation to finishing the opponent. I've beaten much better SSB players than myself just by playing defensively and edge camping them when the opportunity arises. Pros like Melee because they know the game's many exploits. I think the random luck of the game translates to excitement to a lot of people but they would really be better of just playing with their friends, as the game was intended to be. I mainly compete in Third Strike and SF IV, those game have been designed from the frame by frame level to be competitive fighters. Combos take skill and there is an accurate, quantifiable measure of your opponent's remaining life.

bobbypaycheque

#51

bobbypaycheque said:

@Shpongled_Mario Again, a lot of readers on here are assuming that the game was designed to be competitive like Street Fighter. It isn't. It is meant to be good, casual fun in your living room with some friends. Melee is NOT a good competitive game, it is full of exploits that the dev didn't intend to impact gameplay. The nature of Smash as a game makes it's outcome much too random. I haven't played the new Smash but I'm betting it will be good fun with friends and that is about it. That's fine though, because that is all Smash ever was.

Nimious

#54

Nimious said:

@bobbypaycheque Whether Sakurai meant it or not the original Smash and Melee had an incredible amount of depth. Brawl got very much dumbed down and honestly looks to have less people playing it competitively than Smash 64 at this point.

Though I would not say there's no combos in Brawl. There very clearly is. For example Marth can do Fair - Fair - Dancing Blade full combo. You must really not pay attention to the game if you can't even see the combos and think of it as just single button hits. There are a lot of true combos in Melee and some in Brawl.

Competitive matches come down to luck...? What in the world...? You have to be blind to miss all the tech skills being used. A player using DI at the right time, reading a roll, out maneuvering their opponent, etc. That's all skill not luck. As I said when aMSa beat M2K it was pure skill. He used a low tier character and beat all the top tier characters M2K picked. You say luck? That's crazy.

Damage isn't unpredictable... A lot of the pros know exactly what move is viable at what percentage and at what percentage to do what move. The game is a science to them. Watch the pros play, this isn't even remotely as questionable as you think.

You must have no skill in you to come to your conclusion. It takes significantly more skill to combo in Smash than something like Street Fighter. Whereas in something like Marvel vs Capcom once a combo is started you can't do anything about it except hope your opponent drops it whereas in Smash you could possibly DI out of it if you're good enough. Even if you're good at DI your opponent could see it happen and adjust accordingly. It takes more than reading lines from a script to be good at Smash.

bobbypaycheque

#55

bobbypaycheque said:

@Nimious Brawl was a lot of fun. Stop hating Brawl. Brawl was super fun with friends, like all the Smash games are. Because that is what they were designed to be. Hitting one button several times in a row isn't really a combo, sorry Marth. There aren't any proper combos because there are so few buttons dedicated to attacks.
Like I said, I played in local tournaments and did quite well, but found both Melee and Brawl uninspiring and not very fun at the competitive level. Damage IS unpredictable in Melee, you can see the 'pro' player's surprise all the time when they didn't think a move should have propelled them off the map. Not just competitive matches but ALL matches have a lot of luck involved, especially when items are turned on. The 'pros' self KO all the time. Seems like if it was such a 'science' to them that self KO's would never happen. It isn't a bad thing when playing casually, it gives less experienced players big chances to win and shake things up.
Combos in Street Fighter are not simply a script, it takes excellent timing and good positioning to use them properly. There are no broken game mechanics or exploits built into the competitive Street Fighter scene, unlike Melee. All you're telling me is you don't know a thing about Street Fighter, which is fine because it definitely isn't for everyone.
I know how to pull off most of the exploits in Smash you mentioned pretty consistently but they seriously are not combos man. They are EXPLOITS. They weren't meant to be part of the game. The game isn't nearly polished enough to be taken so seriously in the competitive level. These guys can't even evolve the control of the game past a Gamecube controller. Stop being an angry, uninformed person and try Street Fighter on a good arcade stick and feel the massive difference for yourself. Stop trying to make a party game something it is not.

Nimious

#56

Nimious said:

@bobbypaycheque Hating Brawl? That's the Smash I play the most even to this day. I was never a Melee player but I fully appreciate the depth in that game.

I never said Brawl wasn't fun. How did you infer that from what I said?

Wow, pressing one button? Really? What does that say for Street Fighter then? That's hilarious. I play Ryu in Street Fighter and Nightmare in Soul Calibur and the difficulty of executing moves and chains is no tougher than it is for Smash. However the difference is that my opponents can do something about my combos instead of just praying I drop it. But really you think you can Fair from ONE button?

Damage is unpredictable in Melee...? What in the world? Everyone knows how much an attack does. Pro players are not surprised. How can they be surprised when they're in kill percentage, on a specific map, hit by a certain move, etc. Surprised huh? Maybe if they overestimated their DI.

When items are turned on.... lol. That's just for fun.

Self KOs all the time... Wow. EVO 2014 is on RIGHT now, go watch it. Yeah people SD but that's always from a tech mess up or an air dodge gamble.

Street Fighter isn't a script? All that happens is someone throws a string and if a hit registers they execute a combo that can ONLY go wrong if they mess up. How is that not a script? That's how the entire match runs unless they just want to play footsies. Excellent timing? Don't make me laugh, all you need to look for is a hit register before going over a memorized combo. You want to explain how players like Balrog, Cammy, or even Bison how they always throw these strings before going into their finishing move like a scissor kick. SF is extremely restrictive in what you can and cannot do. It rewards players most for hit confirms, memorization but I'm sure you love these mechanics since you can't adapt quick enough in Smash. The punishment game nor bar utility is just not up to part with other games like Tekkan Tag, Marvel vs Capcom, Killer Instinct, etc.

Exploits...? Canceling and techs was BUILT into the game. It's not an exploit. You think Sakurai actually had no idea what he did when he put these mechanics in? Wall jumps were intentional, DI was intentional since he intentionally put varying amounts of hit stun into the game, even things like Ice Climber desync was intentional as you can do it in BOTH games. I could go on and on.

LOL, you're talking about evolving past the Gamecube controller when SF still uses arcade stick controllers for what now 30 years? Smash players prefer the Gamecube controller but they have more choices to controllers than SF. You can play Smash with one - eight entirely different controllers where as for SF you have your controller and then just the arcade stick. Oh yeah, SF has grown up so much :]. What you meant third party controllers? Get real.

Shpongled_Mario

#57

Shpongled_Mario said:

@bobbypaycheque Maybe it was designed for fun, but it's still a fighting game so it was intended for competition thus it was intended to be competitive. You don't just sit there and taunt all day, you compete to win. It may not have been the sole intention because of all the weapons, and boards with stage obstacles, but there was most definitely intent for competition. They probably didn't think it would get anywhere near as competitive as it is but it did lol. The no item factor takes away the randomness. You say it was always just for fun, that's your experience. I play for fun and for competition. I like to think they made it intended for both crowds. Weapons and stuff for fun, final destination items off for competition. I would like it to be available to both without taking away from techniques. And things like wave dashing supposedly were intended to be in the game, according to an interview or something I read in a comments section in the last few weeks. I'm getting games no matter what and will have fun no matter what, but I really hope it doesn't feel like a baby version or anything. Are you getting the Wii U version or 3DS by the way? I'm getting both, and would be down to play at release if you're down. I played the Wii U version twice and it was fun but too quick to get a feel cause 2 minute timed matches with new characters in a 4 way match is not enough to give a great impression but I had fun I'll say that lol.

Shpongled_Mario

#58

Shpongled_Mario said:

@Nimious What does DI stand for first off, I agree with most of what you said if not all in a nice way lol. And sudden deaths, I gotta get to his comment about it first, but you if you kill yourself it's usually your own fault, and there certainly was no random damage. I guess I'm the best pro in the world cause I hardly ever kill myself (lol doubt I am the best but who knows :p ). Ever. Just cause of how you play with the buttons and joysticks means it isn't competitive? That's absurd. With Melee I literally sat with every character learning them and their moves against ever character. So I was never surprised by how much damage a move did. It's simply trial and error and such. I can't agree with half of what he says after reading his response to you.

Shpongled_Mario

#59

Shpongled_Mario said:

@Pika2346 Lol yea there are experienced players who do it, I just find it more prefer to let people back on and keep going at it til I get that hit that DOES kill them, that's how my friends play and we joke and say edge guarders are just scared so they try to kill people as quick as they can. I'm just being a hater lol. It does take some skill to edge guard granted, but I don't think it's that much. Some people LIVE off edge guarding. I played one kid a few years ago who used kirby and literally sat at the end of the stage of final destination and wouldn't leave that spot and he mastered the trick of knocking you off then sucking you in and falling and flying back up and that was literally all he would do. Really annoying cause he would not leave that spot lol and I feel the person waiting has the upper hand compared to the attacker in certain situations. I refuse to spam or do cheap stuff like sit there shooting lasers from a distance like fox users and such, so I'll go at people sitting there even if I feel they have the upper hand. Anyway I figured out his techniques after a few close matches and just took over. He finally gave up. Then he found out I was on an 8th of shrooms the whole time. Then he really felt bad :p

bobbypaycheque

#60

bobbypaycheque said:

@Shpongled_Mario Competition in the living room is different imho than competition at an event. I never got the sense that it was built for serious competition due to the slew of characters that are frankly at a massive disadvantage (Pichu, ROB and Snake come to mind.) I will definitely be getting the Wii U version, would love to go online and play with you. Always happy to learn from a new challenger. Hopefully the online infrastructure is strong. I like their idea of having essentially two modes, one for arcade fun and one for people you want a challenge and stats etc. Hopefully it is more polished and balanced when compared with older iterations of the game..

Nimious

#61

Nimious said:

@Shpongled_Mario

DI stands for Directional Influence. It's a great way to re-positon yourself under attack and minimize knock-back to live longer. It's a critical component of Smash having been around forever and the removal of which from the latest Smash is turning a lot of experienced Smashers off. Search it up on Youtube, it's really easy to do but tough to time.

I too sat down and played Melee with every character before. Though at the time I was a kid but I still knew exactly how much damage an attack should do, what percentage was dangerous, when to use what, ec. Oh, and of course I wasn't a pro but I rarely killed myself as bobbypaycheque seems to think is normal for Smash... lol.

In any case I hope Smash 4 will be adjusted further to bring back more of the skill element. It looks good but it needs to play good to be successful.

WinterWarm

#62

WinterWarm said:

This'll be my first Smash game, so any changes from previous games won't matter to me... Great interview.

Shpongled_Mario

#63

Shpongled_Mario said:

@Nimious Ahhh that's what it means lol. There's a lot of terms I don't know even if I know how to do them like that one lol. I remember at E3 I think it was way back before Melee came out and they talked about that. I thought everyone knew how to do that (but then again I didn't know what it was called so how can I talk haha). And I didn't know they were taking it out of the new one, definitely hope that changes! I got to play it twice but 2 minutes isn't enough time to get a feel for the game so I didn't notice it. Hopefully enough people will say something about it to make thing put it in. Would miiverse be the best way for me to put my voice out to Nintendo about that?

Nimious

#64

Nimious said:

@Shpongled_Mario You're very lucky to have gotten to play it even if it was just for two minutes. You already have a two minute edge over the majority of future smashers lol :].

I think Miiverse is a fair place to lodge a complaint. One of my first comments on Miiverse was how I was going to miss using the Gamecube controller for the new Smash. That was nearly a year ago with well over 50 Yeahs and now look, the Gamecube controller has returned.

I might have had nothing to do with its return but I feel Nintendo did see that and recognized that fans still loved the original controller. After all the new Gamecube controllers will have the Smash emblem on them proving that it was because of the Smash community that it will return.

Oh and when you get Smash for Wii U let's go for some matches. I have it pre-ordered but I might cancel that and wait for the deluxe release.

theblackdragonAdmin

#65

theblackdragon said:

@Nimious, @bobbypaycheque, @Shpongled_Mario: Hey guys, i've gone ahead and cleared out the insults from this conversation — you'll note that it stands just fine without them. Next person who starts getting nasty again will be temp-banned for their trouble. Please remember our Community Rules and play nice!

bobbypaycheque

#67

bobbypaycheque said:

@Nimious Why are you so angry? We have a differing opinion on a game. I don't see why you need to make it a personal agenda. We all represent gamers as a community and need to represent positively. I don't think Smash Bros. games are good competition level games and you do. Fine. No need to be insulting.

Nimious

#68

Nimious said:

@bobbypaycheque You're really good at misinterpreting words. It's obvious what this comment is about.

At one point I was explaining and pointing out the depth of mechanics in Smash that you have ignored and simply labelled as a "party" game. Eventually I just gave up on the explanation as it became too humorous to see how off you were about the Smash. Why you would take that as anger is beyond me :].

Your opinion is moot as it is a fact the Smash is a competitive game. How you manage to continually ignore that point is again beyond me. It is currently on right now at EVO which is one of the premier fighting esport tournaments in the world. It is also at other big name tournaments such as Apex, MLG, etc. I of course had already said that but it was always obvious you weren't listening.

Oh and it's hypocritical how you're telling me there's "no need to be insulting". As I recall you were warned too as that's not something you followed either :].

bobbypaycheque

#69

bobbypaycheque said:

@Nimious It is a party game that has recently become popular but likely won't maintain that. There are not enough mechanics to make it deep enough to get enough players at the competitive level to play it. In other words, you aren't going to see Street Fighter numbers and certainly not LoL and Starcraft numbers for Smash. And I never insulted you the way you insulted me, as you got warned an extra time :) Real mature as usual. Stop taking everything so personally.

bobbypaycheque

#70

bobbypaycheque said:

@Nimious BTW, here is a link to the article where Sakurai clarifies that Smash isn't a fighting game: http://tinyurl.com/lz4f3t6
To make it even possible to compete as fairly as the game allows basically means one or two maps and a few 'top tier' characters, and eliminating a huge swath of the game's design, namely the items. He very clearly states that he didn't build it to be a technical fighter but rather to be accessible and have an element of chance and unpredictability. So 'four player battle royale action game' as Sakurai calls it. Not a fighting game and never played fully in competition. Like to see them compete with items turned on in a stage like Ice Mountain. So instead we see a bunch of guys play Final Destination, Starfox, No Items Melee.

Nimious

#71

Nimious said:

@bobbypaycheque "It is a party game that has recently become popular but likely won't maintain that."

Smash Bros is around 15 years old yet you think it has only recently become popular?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tgWH-qXpv8

Smash Bros at EVO this year drew around 1,000 players to the qualifiers much higher than other games at the tournament including Street Fighter IV Ultra. Smaller tournaments like Kings of Cali drew hundreds of Smashers and maintained 30,000 viewers on Twitch. Of course those numbers are even higher for premier tournaments like MLG. Despite that you continually say otherwise while ignoring the facts.

Smash Bros is a multi-facet game. Sakurai is saying in the article that he views Smash as more than just a "fighting" game. As Sakurai said himself in the article people have a strict definition of what fighting games are. Because Smash is doing more than that definition there are people like you who do not see Smash as a competitive game as it's not what they expect of the genre.

Frankly, it's amazing how you send me an article where you completely miss the meaning of it.

PlywoodStick

#72

PlywoodStick said:

"One thing I did notice when I was playing was that the landing lag was a bit longer than in previous Smash games, so after you land an aerial you can’t move as fast afterwards. An improvement could be to reduce some of the lag to make the characters move faster, which also would mean that you could use a lot more aerials while playing. That’s always been a huge part of previous Smash games, and part of what makes it so special as a franchise, in my opinion."

See, this is why we need fan-made mods like Project M. Aerial and landing mechanics are supposed to vary between characters and moves, not be artificially lengthened overall, since that weakens or changes high level play, depending on the character setup and stage.

Say what you will about unofficially deviating from the developers, or even "taking their revenue", but Project M restores balance from the broken Brawl system, and even competes with Melee's balance. Meanwhile, the next game's developers are fundamentally altering pieces of the game that are essential to it's functionality at high level play.

These tournaments should start using a mod like Project M instead of Smash Bros Wii U, if the technicalities get too out of hand. It's true that Sakurai stated "Smash Bros is a party game", but that sends the series in a different direction from what some fans want. For those people, fanmade mods should be the way to go in the future for professional tournaments.

PlywoodStick

#73

PlywoodStick said:

@Nimious If they play Project M, I wonder if they like it... If enough fans and tournament competitors request it, I wonder if a mod such as Project M could one day be used for such tournaments as EVO, skipping over Smash Bros Wii U / 3DS? Brawl is not EVO-worthy, and it sounds like Smash 4 isn't either.

PlywoodStick

#74

PlywoodStick said:

@bobbypaycheque LoL is popular, but that doesn't make it as mechanically balanced as DotA 2. LoL fundamentally changes the mechanics of MOBA at every level of play, especially high level play, in a way that makes it less impressive to play and observe than DotA 2. If anything, LoL is a "party game" compared to DotA 2, in the same way Brawl is a "party game" compared to Street Fighter.

Starcraft is a whole other beast. Most people cannot come close to the high levels of play demonstrated; the difference between a Diamond player and a Pro player is more severe than a Minor league and Major league physical sports player. Not to mention it's practically the national sport of South Korea... Even so, that doesn't necessarily make Starcraft's mechanics as fleshed out or interesting as other RTS games. It just happens to be the game many people latched onto, due to it's relative simplicity of mechanics, coupled with complexity of high level play.

Melee and mods like Project M don't have the innate tightness of a traditional 2D fighter, but they do have some interesting aspects of their own when fully explored.

One of my friends is a huge 2D fighter traditionalist. He used to call Smash Bros. "just a party game" like you do. Once he saw high level play at tournaments, however, even he warmed up to the idea of a fighter not having to be an arcade stick wrestling match. He also used to play Street Fighter 4 religiously every day. He now says that with every "expansion" to Street Fighter 4, it's core balance is further devolved, by some uneccessary mechanical addition thrown in, or previous ones borked. Hearing that from such a fighting game junkie... I take his words seriously.

Nimious

#75

Nimious said:

@PlywoodStick I believe Armada does like it. When he retired (which turned out to be a break) from Melee he picked up Project M instead. I think he just liked the new diversity he found and he even picked up Pitt instead of Peach. As for M2K he recently said in a phone interview that Project M is his favourite Smash iteration and has said many times it is the most balanced of them all.

However Project M likely will never be able to make it to EVO. Imagine Nintendo allowing a moded version of Brawl set itself on the world stage instead of the original. Aside from the licensing issues there's pride involved from not only Nintendo but I believe Sakurai as well.

As for Smash 4 I hope Sakurai is listening to the pros and the community. Despite what he thinks the Melee engine and Melee in general was the more widely accepted and loved game by not just the community but also the casual players. The numbers prove this. Melee was bought and played by 30% (7mil games/23mil consoles) of Gamecube owners while Brawl was only bought and played by just 12% (12mil games/100mil consoles) of Wii owners. The drop-off may continue with Smash 4's sales and adoption rate as most of the community is hesitant after seeing the footage of the game. It's a shame really since a lot of Smashers would have bought a Wii U just for Smash 4.

The goal of Smash 4 should have been to bring casuals and the community together not separate them further. Why Sakurai and Nintendo thinks it's a good idea to do so is misguided. I understand their reasoning of course but the likely results aren't as positive as they can be.

PlywoodStick

#76

PlywoodStick said:

@Nimious "However, Project M likely will never be able to make it to EVO. Imagine Nintendo allowing a modded version of Brawl, setting itself on the world stage instead of the original. Aside from the licensing issues, there's pride involved, from not only Nintendo, but I believe Sakurai as well."

Yeah, good point. I'm not sure if the Project M community necessarily wants itself to have such constantly heavy pressure or outside issues to deal with, either. I just feel like it would make a better representation of the series evolving over time than the recent official releases.

bobbypaycheque

#77

bobbypaycheque said:

@PlywoodStick I think Dota 2 will overtake LoL eventually. LoL is still a fun and deep MOBA, although you have to pay cash to play it properly. Street Fighter still has the most solid mechanics in the 2D fighting scene, despite Capcom's best efforts. Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition was a huge improvement on vanilla SFIV though, I'm sure your friend would concur with that. I'm looking forward to the new Mortal Kombat though. As for Smash, it is a fun game but it will just never be played at the same level as SF, BB, or KoF. They will never play more than a couple of stages, never with items, only with a few characters and never the full four characters. Smash is a fun brawler but not much else. Maybe the new one will change that with the two online modes. As it stands there are too many random elements, that the maker of the game says he put there on purpose, to make it tight enough to be a great 2D fighter imho.

bobbypaycheque

#78

bobbypaycheque said:

@Nimious He clearly states he made the game more for the masses than competition. There is no way to misinterpret that. I know the game has been popular sales wise for the console, but not at tournaments which is what I was talking about. I know because I've been in the tournament scene for a long time, since the N64 version of the game was out. You can want the game to be tournament worthy all you want but that doesn't make it so. The game is too fundamentally flawed for all the reasons I mentioned to be considered a read 2D fighting game. Action brawler, fine, but not a fighter. Enjoy watching the same few characters fight one on one on the same two or three stages. Maybe EVO will allow qualifiers for Hungry Hungry Hippo next year (only two players and no items of course.) Get pumped for that.

PlywoodStick

#79

PlywoodStick said:

@bobbypaycheque His favorite iteration was Super Street Fighter 4, though yes, he did think the original Arcade edition was an improvement over vanilla.

The simplified attack system in Smash, alone, prevents it from reaching the complexity of traditional 2D fighters. The traditional 2D fighter game's restricted plane, and character's movement, combos, timing, and mechanics have been fine-tuned over the decades. There's no way Smash Bros. can compete with that, it's just something a bit different.

Nimious

#80

Nimious said:

@bobbypaycheque Earlier you said "Sakurai clarifies that Smash isn't a fighting game" which was one of the most ridiculous things I've heard said yet. Did you actually think Sakurai has no idea that he has created a fighting game? I mean what are the characters in this game doing?

The game wasn't made strictly for competition but as I sent you the documentary on Smash it's pretty clear that it was very capable of it.

"I know the game has been popular sales wise for the console, but not at tournaments which is what I was talking about."

....Again. Watch the documentary. Smash was brought back to MLG, back to EVO by POPULAR demand. If the game was so dead and devoid as you said how could Smash win not only the voting but also the fundraising for breast cancer to solidify its spot back into these premier esport tournaments just over the past two years? The community raised around $100,000 in a short time and has actually continued to grow... You say you were actually around in the tournament scene but that's clearly a lie. Sorry, your local EB Games tourney doesn't really count. Why not show up at the Canada Cup and see how the community actually is huh? By the way I mention Canada Cup because again Melee was added in just a few years ago by POPULAR demand.

It's also funny how you say Melee isn't tournament worthy when it's in more major tournaments than it ever was. Are you saying the guys at MLG, you know the legendary MLG is wrong? How about the guys at EVO? If Melee wasn't tournament worthy why would they choose to take the game back in after all these years? These organizers have been around for so long and have seen and hosted so many games. Why is your opinion higher than that of Chris G? The man himself spoke highly of Melee.

The reasons you talked about as to why Smash is flawed is ridiculous to say the least. Your bit about the few stage choices is ridiculous as in other games like Street Fighter the maps are literally all the same except the background changes. I suppose for a gamer like you that's different enough. Your biggest issue with Smash is that it works on a percent bases instead of health. That difference is what you can't accept even though it isn't nearly as random as you think. Oh, and of course you think pros SD all the time LOL.

By the way Smash is on right now at EVO. Over 110,000 Viewers. More than SF which was 60,000, more than well every other game at EVO. Trust me, it's just you. Everyone else gets hyped, everyone else can see and enjoy the mechanics.

http://prntscr.com/42doy1

Explain that then. Explain how Melee isn't popular at tournaments. But yeah, stay delusional :].

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