Given this is a Nintendo-focused site many of you may not be aware that it is now possible for Windows developers to submit their applications for release on the Xbox One. It's all part of Microsoft's overarching plan to unify its business interests and should - on the whole - result in benefits for console users.
Such a move opens the door for things like emulators, which are rife on the Windows Store and Google Play market. Whether or not Microsoft will allow such apps to be made available on the Xbox One remains to be seen, but we'll probably know sooner rather than later as a NES emulator has already been submitted for approval:
From a legal perspective there's nothing wrong with such emulators, provided they don't include any code taken from the console's original BIOS. The issue arises when it comes to actually playing anything on the app - for that, you need ROM files and these are naturally covered by copyright.
Microsoft may decline to approve the release of the app - the developer has been waiting since September 2nd - or it could let it slip, paving the way for Nintendo games on your Xbox One. Of course, it's at that point that we'd imagine Nintendo's legal team might step in and have a word.
Which way do you think this will go? Let us know with a comment.
[source neogaf.com]
Comments 110
The Ninty Ninjas are already en route.
It's not illegal to have the ROM files either, provided you've ripped them from a game you own. I mean, we all know that doesn't happen, but technically you could play NES games on that thing legally.
I thought I was on the Twilight Zone for a second when I read the headline.
I can't see this taking off at all, and I hope it doesn't. If it does, there's nothing stoping other people from making similar emulators.
F*** em' up Nintendo!
If you want to play Nintendo games, buy a Nintendo console!
It's THAT simple!
Why is this such an illogical concept!
"The issue arises when it comes to actually playing anything on the app - for that, you need ROM files and these are naturally covered by copyright."
Not if it's original fan-made games that simply run on these emulators, of which there are actually quite a few.
As long as this App isn't breaking any laws and it's not supplying any Nintendo's ROM files directly, I think it would be extremely dodgy of Microsoft to start dictating that stuff like this isn't allowed on the store when it's legally and technically not breaking any rules whatsoever. That would be very much about these corporations serving their own best interests collectively at the corrosion of the laws that are supposed to be there to protect creative works/projects like this. It's not Microsoft's job or legal responsibility to pre-determine how such things may or may not be abused and pre-emptively strike them down before a single copyright crime has ever even been committed. If any copyright issues should arise then it can and should deal with them when they do. That's how the law should work to serve the best interests of everyone and not just the corporate agenda.
This also goes to why Tim Sweeney is worried about Microsoft's Windows 10 environment becoming more "unified" and becoming a more and more closed system and walled garden:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/04/microsoft-monopolise-pc-games-development-epic-games-gears-of-war
http://venturebeat.com/2016/05/06/epic-games-ceo-tim-sweeney-still-opposes-microsofts-universal-windows-platform/
I saw xbox one and thought they were talking about the original xbox I have stored up in my closet. It must be early.
NES Box?
Take notes Microsoft
@Neon_Blues
While is doesn't make it right, many people simply can't afford to own multiple consoles. For them it was either an X1/PS4 OR Wii U, and with how bad the Wii U was doing, it's a pretty simple choice.
There is also the issue of many older NES and SNES games not been added to any of Nintendo's eShops, so the only way to get them is to pay hundreds for some of the rarest carts on eBay, as well as finding a working console, and even a TV that the console can run on, or you can just grab an emulator and rom and have at it.
I think it's pretty cool. It's nice to see Microsoft embrace a more free and open platform (that's what I like about Android consoles), instead of the walled garden of the traditional games console.
"It is a multiplatform emulator of video consoles. You can play your favorite NES, Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis and GameBoy Color/Advanced games".
There's no way Microsoft is allowing this. I don't know much about the company, but I imagine their approval process has to be better than Google's.
@ClockworkMario
That legal loophole varies by country and by interpretations within a country. I especially wonder how it is covered for games (ROMs) which continue to be available for sale.
Also, more generally, it should be noted that Nintendo does not hold copyright to all games on Nintendo systems. So others may have differing opinions (and legal options) as well.
OK, how does this work exactly?
NESBox is an NES emulator, that seems simple enough, yes.
Would it be sold with ROMs or is it just being sold as a player?
Since Xbox is sort of closed compared to PC, how does one get ROMs into it on X1? (PC I know.)
If somebody built a program from scratch that plays NES games more power to them.
Related question. "paving the way for Nintendo games on Xbox One". Were all NES games made by Nintendo? I know Rare REPLAY had some games that were only available before on Nintendo hardware but from my point of view they weren't Nintendo games, they were Rare games. So if somebody had an NES emulator could a company not Nintendo allow for its NES games to be playable on it without Nintendos consent? NES is pretty old, I would think some smaller companies might not care to much if some obscure long forgotten game was being given away for free. Heck, could be some of those companies are long out of business.
To the point - are there enough non-Nintendo NES games to make this thing worth while? I know NES Classic Mini has at least 1 non-Nintendo game in Final Fantasy.
If it is accepted, then I hope/know that Nintendo will have a few words to say. Oh, and by the way we're revealing the NX now.
This needs to be taken down, surely. Maybe Microsoft won't even greenlit it. Maybe they wiil and Nintendo will have to lawyer up.
We've all been there, done that. Emulators can be perfectly legal, but we all know what people use them for. And that is not a legal purpose.
OMG the rumurs were true, NX really do stand for Nintendo-Xbox...
Microsoft has every legal right to allow it. Rare Replay emulates the N64. All the patents on the NES have long since expired. Nintendo only owns the trademark.
I hope Nintendo find a way to sue the hell out of this guys. And Microsoft if they allows it.
@Spike6958 I wasn't saying they should buy multiple consoles, but I'm saying if these people are so starved for Nintendo games, that they're willing to create emulators on the other consoles, then they should have bought a Wii U.
Point taken on the other stuff though.
@rjejr Likely downloaded through Edge (Microsoft's new browser), synced through OneDrive (Microsoft's cloud storage service), or read off a USB stick.
I think Microsoft might step outta that I don't think they would want sued.
@ALinkttPresent Emulators aren't illegal, only pirated ROMs are (though practically all ROMs are pirated). MS will almost certainly allow this so long as it contains none bundled. They did on PC and mobile. Interesting gray area to come out of universal apps though. On a related note, I know the weather app recently started working. Brings back memories from the Wii.
If you want to play a Nintendo game, get the blasted Console.... Or the NES Mini.
If you can't pay for it, save some money just like everyone else. And if you can't savr money for A,B or C reason, then I doubt a Console is in a list of priotities.
Hey, the site's back up. No wonder there were so many double posts. Mods gonna clean up this place?, not everyone will.
@SanderEvers Well aware of that. But it is one thing to have a Nintendo game running on a PC and another very different to have it running in a rival console.
@Billsama It's certainly a precedent. Will be interesting to see how high this charts assuming it launches.
When/If the NX flops, Nintendo will have their own "Sega Dreamcast" scenario and will resort to publishing games through emulators anyway ..the catalog that is...plus whatever they produce with their licenses ..... so more or less, they can already start either supporting these kind of emulators or be the last one to the party (as usual) ...but once people are used to emulators .. and many are (legal, cause they are legal no matter how you want to twist it and nobody cares about the old bios code, there are many alternatives - the roms are like drones - they might fly around but hey, catch one using it illegaly) they wont be able to charge their funny prices like for the NES Mini. Lets wait and see - I for one welcome any emulators that are brought to the table.
Edit: When/If - your choice
@ironside1911
Fixed that for you.
@Neon_Blues Because many titles - old and fairly new - are extremely expensive these days. Some haven't even been released outside of Japan such as half the Fire Emblem franchise. Illegal methods make these games easier to play without spending a ridiculous amount on a single game. You can also play games with improved visuals and customs controls on emulators.
@Vincent294 Cheers, after 12 years my english still is on par with highschool if at all
3 words from me about XBOX One :
I...DON'T...CARE...!
If i want to play NES, just play it straightly on NES or Virtual Console.
@ironside1911
I don't even want Nintendo become next SEGA.
NEVER !
I will keep pray for Nintendo to through all difficult situations and can dominate gaming industry.
I don't even want to see Nintendo become a slave for both Sony and Microsoft. Never ever...!
@Anti-Matter Edgy
Your legal analysis is incredibly poor. It appears to be common internet understanding. From Sony v. Universal, upon which the development of all of the peer to peer file transfer protocols are based, the software must be capable of substantial non-infringing use. (I am completely uninterested in pedestrian arguments about how this emulator could play unique games not coded nor published by Nintendo.)
Additionally, Nintendo need only argue that the use of the cartridges themselves was an attempt to thwart copying, and if accepted, to copy a cart would be circumventing an anti piracy measure, which is illegal under contemporary U.S. copyright law.
The approval of this type of software by Microsoft's intellectual property attorneys would constitute legal malpractice.
*Edit: The three paragraphs above don't even begin to touch upon the myriad trademark issues that would arise.
shouldve been on ps4
Considering Nintendo wants you all to pay £50 for 30 NES games in November, yeah. The lawyers are keeping a watchful eye, ready to push a certain button.
@SunshineHunter
And perhaps you can use your matlock skills to convince their "pedestrian" lawyers otherwise. As if Microsoft would have the lawyer from Simpsons and Nintendo the Law & Order Team .. sure
@SanderEvers It's a console. If it was a Windows 10 PC with exclusive games you could sideload software. Unless you're in Dev Mode with the source code for a UWP app, you can't.
Edit: It is the only console with modding. But other than that, it just has better app support than its rivals. If you can say just anyways.
@Vincent294 you do realize sega was running out of money when they launched the dream cast. It actually did ok but it was to late. Unlike sega Nintendo has billions in the bank.
@faint True, but shareholders won't be happy. The NX will probably get by at the least. I bet it'll do well.
@ironside1911 You clearly don't understand what I wrote. And you seem to be ignorant of how copyright law is enforced. There are no copyright police. Every copyright holder enforces their rights through civil action.
@SunshineHunter No, you didnt read what I wrote. Again, Im pretty sure your pedestrian opinion doesnt match the law-team of microsoft and thats why its in the shop. But feel free to write to them and let us know what happened.
Edit: Or write to Nintendo and get the ball rolling... popcorn ready
People come up with very silly arguments when it comes to justify their desire to see Nintendo games on other consoles. It must be very difficult to live with that conflict. Knowing that Nintendo makes better games and not wanting to support them as a company.
@ironside1911 It is on the PC Windows Shop, because Nintendo does not care enough about PC to bother with legal action for every emulator in existence.
But on a rival console like the Xbox One? That's a direct threat to Nintendo's core business. Nintendo cannot sit iddle by.
@Billsama I'm good. Think I'll be using my Wii with an NES Mini controller when those come. Just saying the law is the law and not all emulation is bad. I got plenty of games on my Xbox One.
@ironside1911 So your response is, "You are wrong cause it's in the shop!" And then you attempt to be insulting. Great.
@Samurai_Goroh Thats not correct, its also on Windows 10 mobile and would mean that they also dont care anymore about their handhelds?
@SunshineHunter Great is your "pedestrian idea" as if you wrote the law... write to Nintendo, ask them what they think of the emulator for Windows 10 mobile... go ahead, write back the response and lets see how far they will manage to go.
@SunshineHunter He is right cause it is within the law, it being in the shop is a testament to that.
@ironside1911 Windows 10 Mobile is too insignificant for anyone to care about.
@Samurai_Goroh Nintendo did crack down on a Pokemon party, and it's not like the emulators on Android are under attack.
@Samurai_Goroh Ah yes, that makes sense now.. good argument. Perhaps I could copy and sell coca cola , based on that logic, but only 10000 cans a month, cause if its more, its not insignificant anymore. Anyway, lets all write to Nintendo .. just asking what they think.. write even "look im using this emulator .. and i found a rom the other day .. on the street.. on a sd card...works great, is that ok with you?" ...let them on it
@Vincent294 No. I understand what you are saying. But for your assertion to be tested, Nintendo would have to sue. Once that occurred, there would be a finding of law. Only then could you conclusively say that this is within the law.
There are no copyright police. The holder of a copyright enforces their rights against alleged infringers and there are many reasons why a copyright holder might not.
@ClockworkMario It depends on the country. In the US, afaik, you can only backup your copies for archival purposes.
As far as the emulator is concerned, Nintendo may be able to take action on something about it, like its name.
@SunshineHunter If they sue that doesn't make it lawful, because unless they change the law it would be frivolous.
I can't see this happening, given Nintendo's history of protecting its IPs. And the fact that the NES Mini is out in a couple of months will only strengthen their resolve.
@Vincent294 No. In order to make a determination, they would have to have a finder of fact apply existing law and come to a legal conclusion. Suing would not make it lawful, but the ultimate conclusion of the conflict resolution would be a judge or jury saying this violated copyright law, or did not.
Here's a work around that I use to gat my NES working on my tv.
@SunshineHunter
Most of copyright law is grey and the courts like to decide things on a one by one basis looking at individual facts. Just like "substantial use". Yes, that's the law, but what does that mean? It's not defined anywhere. You sue, the court looks at the facts and they decide if there is substantial use. Different courts could weigh differently on that issue.
There is no software copyright protection (drm) in a cartridge and courts have long held it legal to make backups. I think Nintendo would be fighting a hard battle that cartridge itself is drm and thus uncopy-able.
Microsoft legal team being in malpractice is a reach. App stores, youtube, social media sites have a tremendous amount of stuff listed daily. In all their user agreements they say the user is responsible for the content and when copyright claims are made they'll respond.
From Nintendo's position you have to understand that emulators and roms are everywhere. I think they did use to take some sites down but I haven't heard of them doing that in a while. You take 1 site down, 3 pop up. Is emulation which you can play on nearly every device you have worth getting an xbox one? Seems like not to me. Plus Nintendo has traditionally played nice with Sony and Microsoft. Not saying this would happen, but what is Microsoft decides to start looking at Nintendo hardware/software and they start a multimillion dollar pissing match over copyrights and patents? I just don't see the upside of Nintendo pushing this.
@ironside1911 I think both of you are looking at this the wrong way. Nintendo could send a cease and desist notice to Microsoft for allowing emulation on their console but not for the emulator it self. Beyond that it would be an exceptionally costly legal fight if Microsoft decided to fight. If anything Microsoft would probably take it down as a courtesy is Nintendo kicks up dust over it which I would expect them to do. What would be funny but unlikely is Nintendo allowing Xbox emulation on the nx. Microsoft would definitely complain and Nintendo would have this emulator to point at.
@faint It'll be interesting if an Xbox emulator becomes available on the One.
@faint Its what I mean... the emulator itself will remain legal. Same in the google store.. its full of it and there has been cases of emulators bundled with games or even stand-alone games running on an emulator like super mario world - that has been taken down. The emulator will remain, there are many alternatives to the code - always been - always will be.
@Vincent294 I hope so. Operation Genesis and Panzer Dragoon Orta would be a blast to play on the Bone again.
What was the site maintenance or whatever that annoyingly stopped Nintendo Life working for half of the day and totally interrupted the flow of this conversation?
@Spike6958 Yeah that's a poor argument though. Stealing entertainment is not legal. The only way I can get a 4k TV is by paying thousands of dollars. Doesn't mean because I can't afford the market price, it should be morally acceptable for me to steal one from Best Buy.
Nothing beats owning an original NES and at least a small tube TV to connect it to. A setup every Nintendo lover should get if possible
@Kirk It was acting funny shortly before it went down and came back up within an hour, likely emergency.
@Neon_Blues You must buy all the old hardware and games on eBay, find a way to make it work on a modern TV, and hope the old system and all the old cartridges still work and hold up. While it's not that hard, there's nothing "simple" about it.
@Spike6958 They can always buy an NES clone system if they want to play those games so badly (not to mention that the Wii Shop Channel and 3DS e-shop are still perfectly fine alternatives for many NES games with much bigger install bases), and just because some games are rare and/or expensive doesn't make it right to just steal them.
I can only see this really appealing to those who were never going to pay for classic games in the first place. Any retro enthusiast knows that two thirds of the fun come from owning and using original hardware. Just my two cents as a collector.
If I want to play Nintendo games, I should buy Nintendo console? Ok, but this is how it works in reality...
I did bought Wii U... I did bought Xenoblade Chronicles (Wii), and I was pretty disappointed how pixelated it looks on my HDTV.
If I got an emulator for free, and pirated ISO for free, and played it on my PC with antialiasing and enhanced resolution... It would look much better...
This is just not fair...
Oh, and about this NES on Xbone... I totally dont agree with this! If this was allowed, they could just go and create Wii emulator for Xbone or PS4. Its f*cked up.
Patch from Microsoft in 3... 2... 1...
Odds are Microsoft will not allow this project to get greenlit. Microsoft would not want to take on Nintendo over a 3rd party app that to Microsoft would not be even remotely worth souring a now budding relationship.
@SanderEvers I reported the games last week and already called nintendo about this article.and they looked it up and already looking 8nto this mater
@HexagonSun well said
People saying to buy a Wii U, stop it, the Wii U handles the quality of retro games badly. Put an emulated game vs the Wii U virtual console and you can see Nintendo half assed the emulation quality in their consoles.
The only thing wrong here is downloading the rom if you don't own the original games, I do though, as I collect them. So what's the problem?
@slim80 They're not going to listen to a whiny little Nibelsnarf like you.
@ironside1911 no need to write or email I just called nintendo at 1-800-255-3700
This is the only thing in recent times that Nintendo should send a DMCA notice to. It's not even their console!
@Billsama Who says they are running nintendo games? There are a lot of homebrew games available on the NES.
@RealPetChicken
If you have the original games, nothing.
The problem is that there is many people that will download ROMs just to avoid paying (not just Nintendo, but from all companies). And we go back to the classic Nintendo dilemma - "I like the games, but not the hardware, so I'm playing anyway and screw rules!".
@Luna_110 Do you know how expensive retro games have become? Search how much Little Samson sells for. I understand the legality of roms, not the emulator though. The emulator is fine, the roms unless owned is illegal to have.
@jimi I assume you are not familar with todays world of technology, but yea, for 60 euro the raspberry will "perfectly" fine emulate everything up to the playstation and N64 even ... let alone the Nintendo 8-Bit ... you will have a blast watching youtube video of it when u were impressed by the "NES Mini" with the 2euro/game offer
Regarding Nintendos finances, there will be more as soon as the NX fails to live up to expectations, but I guess you can call this an appetizer:
http://thekoalition.com/2016/nintendo-financials-ending-the-myth-of-an-invincible-nintendo
http://www.inquisitr.com/3429410/nintendo-manipulating-financials-one-billion-reasons-this-could-be-the-case/
Is just recent stuff and I know, its not the "doomsday" of Nintendo.. I never said they will cease to exist, I said the NX will be their last one if it fails .. no matter how much money they have, their idea is not to drain it to zero
@Rafx Actually an Original Xbox can be modded quite easily to play emulators and such. One of the best things I did with my original Xbox.
@ClockworkMario
Yes and no, really, if you make the rom file, it is really only supposed to be for archival use.
@RealPetChicken watch the language
As for the other people, no links to emulators please.
@Joeynator3000 No links to emulators? Thats weird, that link you deleted (or the whole post for that matter) has been a link to the official Microsoft shop and part of the conversation to demonstrate that it is legally available.
Same Nintendolife is doing e.g. here:
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/09/the_dolphin_emulator_can_now_play_the_entire_gamecube_library
Here you have a whole link posted to download and play Gamecube and Wii Games with a nice headline saying:
So just to understand - emulators are ok to be promoted by Nintendolife with direct download links, even the ones that are not hosted on any official renowned shops such as that one from Microsoft and hence its ok to promote third-party-websites with a direct link to download and play Gamecube & Wii games in articles?
Weird times in Nintendo-Land and I wouldnt care but this seems to be a clear case of an arbitrary decision/action taken.
If its a mistake, just put back my posting - or delete the Nintendolife one as well
I don't and won't ever have an Xbox one, however, I find it amusing that they are doing this, and I wouldn't be surprised if their NES game catalog far exceeds that meager number of titles that Nintendo gave us on the eShop. Why is Nintendo so stingy with releasing good games, old or new?!
@Kiyata There's a difference between what emulator maker are doing and what company could do. Nintendo is offering games the legit way and to do that they need to get licensing right in able to get those games running on their system, this emulator for Xbox One is done via emulator with open source materials, piracy and hacks could easily overclock this and have access to free games. People don't understand that the very reason videogame companies are dying nowadays are due to emulation. If they can't sell you their old games for profit, then they won't have money to distribute new games and what you will see more are endless cash cow titles like Call of Duty and Battlefield instead just to make ends meet.
Emulators have been used on non-nintendo consoles before. The Retron 5 actually rips the roms off the cartridges and emulates them. So there's really nothing Nintendo can do to stop this even if they wanted to.
@jimi If something's overpriced and piracy doesn't exist it just won't sell. If it's reasonably priced, some will still pirate it because cheapskates.
@ClockworkMario Actually thats false. It is illegal to possess a rom file because it is illegal to make a copy of any game. You may own the cartridge format and that is all unless you bought the game on the virtual console store.
These comments are hilarious. Why shouldn't this be allowed? How is it different to the retron consoles, or people running windows on a Mac? Nintendo don't have a right to determine how you use the software you have bought
@jimi hahah ...You ask for a 60$ PC , you received the answer, noticed you have no more argument and now stick to pure name calling? Well, following your logic,... actually, no i dont follow.. why should Nintendo give hardware away for free? I dont think you understand this conversation but anyway, speaking of stealing, you might be interested in the Dolphin Emulator article here on Nintendolife .. i guess, with this semi-religious hysteria dominating now, you should start making death threads to Nintendolife for even mentioning it.
You also have alot of maybes in your comment, but with every class in highschool, it should slowly get cured.
@bolt05
Hmm... this seems to be a case of differing legislation. I could swear the owner of a game has a right to make a copy of the game for their own purposes. This is true at least in Finland and I assume rest of EU as well. It's not limited to just games either. You can make copy of music CD's and all sorts of programs – again, provided you don't distribute it.
Something similar, if a bit more limited, seems to apply to the US if the other commentators are to be believed.
@Neon_Blues
Because not everyone can afford to buy multiple consoles
Because some companies that created games, aren't around anymore and people like to revisit their favorites, or the games are movie franchise licensed.
Because working NES consoles and cartridges can't last forever and are failing more and more often.
Take your pick.
I've once tried the Windows 8 version of this app and I can say it does nothing wrong copyright-wise.
The ROM's included with the app are all homebrews and what the user does is not the developers concern, nor is it Microsoft or Nintendo's, assuming this Xbox version will allow you to put your own ROM's on like with the Windows 8 version of NESBox.
Still, that doesn't mean it's a good idea for Microsoft to approve it. It could lead to lawsuits and negative publicity anyway.
@ironside1911 Generally speaking we do not allow users to discuss and exchange links to ROMs themselves. If such a link is posted, you can use the Contact Form below to talk to the editors. As we the mods are not writers, we do not have control over what is posted on news.
@Lzeon ROMS were never mentioned - the deleted posting and the included link is related to the (legal) emulator and was given as example. Same as with the Dolphin emulator I have given as example. I fully understand the roms issue, no links to roms were ever posted and if so I would even report that myself.
@ironside1911 Perhaps it was a misunderstanding. Usually some emulator sites have ROMs as well.
His business happens to be moderating comments. -Lz
@Lzeon The official Microsoft shop just has the emulator as you can see here (it was the same link):
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/nesbox-emulator/9nblggh3szfq
Again, the misunderstanding is, this is not "a emulator site" (like the Dolphin one, where you can go to forums and ask for roms). Its the microsoft shop with a full description.
@ironside1911 Well then, Microsoft is just being naughty
Given the good relations between MS and Nintendo, it wouldn't surprise me if MS would reject this emulator.
@ClockworkMario I dont live in the US.
There is actually international law to protect intellectual property, the holder of a copyright is the only person/body that may make and distribute copies. Downloading a rom image from a website is actually illegal, you're just not likely to be caught.
Owning a cartridge and copying the file from it to make a rom is still illegal even in the EU and yes even in Finland. This area is more grey however, but making a copy when you do not own the intellectual property is illegal, yes even music cds.
This topic was recently and specifically covered here on Life Hacker: http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/08/is-it-legal-to-play-retro-game-roms-on-emulators/
And yes I'm Australian.
@bolt05
Yeah, downloading them online was obviously illegal, but I've thought up until this that you can produce a copy for personal uses. For most purposes (music, literature) this is correct at least around these parts, but you're right mate, computer programs seem to be outside this protection.
But then again if Nintendo sues them it might put Xbox in the grave.regardless of Xbox one sales
@Spike6958 really I have my nes,she's,n64 and ps1 hooked up to my 55in hd tv lol I just can't play games that involve the light gun.
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