Nintendo, Sony And Microsoft Will Disclose Loot Box Odds

This is good. This is very good. But still - don't buy loot boxes, kids.

You see all that perspiration?

That's EA and Activision sweating in fear.

Wow. Kinda wish casinos in Vegas would do the same thing.

@Audiobrainiac
Because if they did, casinos would not exist. They are purposefully rigged.

@Audiobrainiac So we are now comparing video games, some of them having 3+ age ratings cough Fifa cough with casinos in Las Vegas.
How did we even get here?

@Chayshirin wellllll it’s been compared in the recent past. May very well be the reason this is taking place.

@Audiobrainiac Well, when you pull a slot machine, you don't really have a "chance" of winning. Slots pay out after a set number of rolls. If you're not on the magic roll, you have exactly 0% chance of a payout. So giving the odds for each roll would shut down casinos xD

This is like taking two steps on a 5 kilometer journey... but every journey starts with that first step.

I can tolerate randomness when it's purely in-game. That's just games. But when we spend our money on content, we should be able to pick what content we are buying. If you're going to have micro transaction in a game, a bare minimum they should be required to do is to allow us to chose which ones we want to buy.
There was a time where things like character skins and new levels were things you unlocked by playing the game or with secret codes. Now they just want your credit card number.

Casinos are different because the whole idea is putting money in for the chance to win money back. It has to be unfair to work at all - otherwise casinos would all go bankrupt and anyone with at least 3 working brain cells should understand that you don't go to Vegas to win, you go for the thrill that maybe you get lucky.

Meanwhile, EA still thinks loot boxes are “surprise mechanics.”

If you don't care to look up the odds for loot boxes it's poor, very poor. Like I wouldn't buy that for a scratch ticket odds poor.

You know a situation is bad when Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony and the ESA all agree on something. That just means that things have gotten so out of hand that they need to enforce something to keep governments from stepping in with regulations and oversight. Which is soon if they don't get a leash on the situation in regards to loot boxes.

It's always better to self regulate if you can versus having someone else regulate you when you're in the world of buisness.

What exactly even is a loot box??? 🤔

Seems fair. Loot Boxes are still a terrible monetization scheme (great for business, bad for consumer), but at least people will understand what they're getting into by buying them. And if I'm correct, all of Nintendo's mobile gacha games state what the odds are of receiving any given character or item.

Disclosing the odds doesn't really make much of a difference. Much of the odds are figured out online anyways.

@joey302 It's a type of microtransaction. Lootboxes typically house character skins, items, decals, and in extreme cases, better options for winning (looking squarely at Battlefront II). The big controversy around them is that you are paying real money for the chance to get an item you want, which you may not even get, and when all is said and done, you will likely be left with a lot of stuff that you may not have even wanted to begin with. The idea of lootboxes is to get you to keep buying them until you get what you want. It's basically gambling, except with intangible, digital goods.

@SpicyBurrito16 It is not piracy, it is surprise free distribution of games

The real evil with lootboxes is 80% of the time you get 20% of what you pay for, and unless you buy a ton more to get more consistent high rolls to even out the cost per box, you get far less of what you pay for.

This is amazing, the end of the loot box era might finally be in sight. Once people see how bad the rates are hopefully they’ll stop buying them, and hopefully the concept will begin to fade.

Not good enough. Just get rid of the awful mechanic.

I don't know man, look at steam. Look at dota 2. They implemented loot box which called treasure, and they still achieved biggest e-sport prize pool in history. So in reality, loot box is yay or nay? I don't know.

@Shepdawg1 ahhh so I knew what it was after all- just didn’t know that’s what it was called! No wonder I stayed away!!! Thanks

I still don't like it. Kids play and spend a large portion on games. They are still not going to understand the dynamics.

I hope the government steps in and enforces an all out ban. This shouldn’t be an acceptable trend in the industry to begin with.

@JesWood13 While I agree lootboxes are out of control and need regulation, I absolutely DO NOT want the government banning them. We don't need a nanny state telling us what isn't good for us.

Does Nintendo even do loot boxes? I know they're doing the gacha stuff in the mobile games, but....those aren't loot boxes. lol

Call me jaded, but I think the disclosure won't be featured predominantly and rather will be a minuscule text or hidden in a one time prompt upon the first purchase or so. This is the industry trying to advert regulation by law and keep the party going...

@Joeynator3000 I read that rather as a "You want to release a game with loot boxes on our console, better disclose that..."

Been pointing this out for ages. No real money can get into a game without Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft on consoles (And Collecting their 30% cut on every dollar spent on LBs) They Control the flow of money, so can be asked to do more.

Now for Apple to Force Nintendo to do the same on Mobile.

Yesssss. That's a big step forward!

Hopefully if this escalates enough, it'll convince them to get rid of lootboxes altogether

Not good enough. Dice games in casinos and lottery tickets all have probabilities that can easily be calculated, and as mentioned online empirical data can be used to determine the odds of loot boxes. All of them are still gambling, and most people who buy them are too stupid for probability anyway (humans aren’t really evolved to think probabilistically, and even smart mathematicians sometimes screw it up - see the Monty Hall problem, for example). Only acceptable response is to say that loot boxes aren’t ever going to be a part of Nintendo games. Which, to their credit, Nintendo did strongly imply earlier this year.

@joey302 Like what Shepdawg1 said, it's basically just you purchasing things but instead of you having the option to choose which product you want to purchase, they will randomly give out a product for you to purchase without you knowing what it is until after you purchase it. Pretend if you play Street Fighter V and you want to buy Chun-Li's Alpha outfit which is available but the only way to get it is to buy it through loot box.

Then you access the loot box and take your chance, you throw money at it and the loot will be purchase then you open the loot box and found out it's not the item you want and the game will persuade you to try again if you wish. You keep trying and trying spending real money in getting one cosmetic after another and by some luck on the tenth try you finally got Chun-Li's Alpha outfit, by that time you would had already wasted many real dollars on the first nine craps that you didn't want.

Better solution ban them altogether where they use actual money (through buying funbucks or crystals etc). Like you should be able to just buy what add ons you want not these virtual scratch cards.

Well im glad they are doing this.
If i spent money on micro transactions, I want to decide what I buy or not

On the back of scratchcards it has the odds, it is still gambling whatever you put on it, you are giving money for an unknown.
Sorry but however you put it, micro transactions are evil and should be banned

@JesWood13 Which one? Really we'd need them all to agree, and we can't even get them to agree to stop attacking each other.

@J-Plap That part of education should come before "don't do drugs"

Nintendo should take a moral stand and refuse to publish games with loot boxes. They might lose a few games on the platform but Im sure that most publishers would simply turn all the loot box content into clearly labeled dlc. In the long run it would make switch versions preferable over the other platforms.

So basically, what many mobile games have done for ages?

People are celebrating this when all it means is that they're normalizing loot boxes by making a small compromise, whereas what should be done is remove them altogether.

@Audiobrainiac I know right

I read the agreement and it's not as good as it should. Loot boxes should be banned in video games like in Netherlands and Belgium.

B-b-but they're trying to ruin my surprise mechanics!

Sadly, while this seems to be a good thing, scummy microtransactions like lootboxes will never go away. The only reason they prevail to begin with is because people actually buy them.

@Chayshirin @Audiobrainiac New Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario 64 DS are rated 16+ on the Wii U eshop because of the Luigi gambling minigames.

@retro_player_22 yea no that’s just ridiculous!! My son gets a bit caught up with that with NBA 2k and maybe Fortnite too!! This whole purchase process should be eradicated immediately- young kids are racking up their parents credit cards etc!! I was never much for even regular DLC lol 😊

@Chayshirin Corporate greed.

@Chayshirin So we are now comparing video games, some of them having 3+ age ratings cough Fifa cough with casinos in Las Vegas. How did we even get here?

Gambling?

@retro_player_22 I think people need to decide what exactly they have a problem with. And your last post outlines the difference.

Zero problems with Microtransactions. You want to buy a new Character in Splatoon, a new armor color in ANTHEM, more Lives in a Mobile game or Amiibo for a wolf/horse. Buying a specific in-game extra is up to the player (digital or physical store)

The revolving box that you pay and get something "by chance" is the issue some people have. You training kids in seeing slot machine mechanics as "normal"... or exploiting a tendency in adults.

If we really against that - Microsoft, SONY, Nintendo, Google, Apple can kill it tomorrow. But they will not, Because they collecting 30% of every slot machine out there.

I specifically remember EA defending loot boxes in ALL their glory. How bout now?

This is a step in the right direction. I just wish they would cease to exist completely, but I guess corporate greed will always rule. I wonder what the next new "mechanic" they will think up once this one dies down.

While this is good, the loot box/gacha mechanics still need more regulations it's still a super dirty industry even if you know the odds. The terrible odds still haven't stopped me from doing pulls on gacha games, because it's still like gambling and i'm weak to waifu's!

@Audiobrainiac Not sure about Vegas, but in many states, casinos DO have to post the odds. It's still gambling whether the odds are posted or not. In fact, in my mind this confirms even more it's true gambling.

When mass market entertainment and gambling cross paths, no good can come of that. It's designed to manipulate basic instincts that everyone has.

@BlueOcean i wouldn't say they need to be banned, but rather they shouldn't cost real money or they should work like the "open treasure chest quest" in AQW; you buy one key & open a chest you're guaranteed 1 non-perishable item & after you get that item its no longer an item you can get making it so that when you get another one you're guaranteed to get something different and eventually you'll be able to get the item you want making it still a bit up to chance but not some pure luck

@Agramonte Makes you wonder if Apple would still be the world's richest company on their hardware and software sales alone, were they not operating a global casino. Or worse, they're the bookie.

I don't think this eliminates loot boxes, but it will help the consumer. Some companies will feel like they have to improve the odds somewhat. Worst case scenario would be someone like EA be caught lying on their disclosures by empirical evidence. Then governments may step in more.

It's absurd. At least in a real casino if you beat the odds you become rich. With this, you spend just as much money, get less beverage service and free credits, and if you win you get a picture of a Shrek themed backpack inside your video game.

The fact that this exists, is allowed to exist, and is becoming normal is horrifying.

What's next, McDonald's "surprise meals?" for $2.99 you get a chance at a Big Mac, medium fries, and a soft drink. Or you might get a free individually wrapped straw. Let's just make everything in life a casino. Life is more fun that way. For $2000 a year for life you might get a replacement kidney when yours fails. Or you might get a Tylenol and an ice pack.

Hey wait, it already does work that way! Life is more exciting when you have to gamble for everything!

@Chayshirin Just just won the entire internet. Or two internets. You have won the chance to win two internets. (Odds 800:1 against.)

@SpicyBurrito16 EA still thinks "Server unavailable" is surprise mechanics, too, do you have a point?

@Shadowmoon522 Well, if loot boxes were not connected to real money in any way then I would agree with you to some extent but this is not how they are designed in this generation.

@NEStalgia Or a Cartel that controls a very lucrative corridor and demands 30% for access to it.

If you go after 5 of them - Loot Boxes would only exist on PC.

Million of people still play the lotto even if they know better chance of being struck by lightning - this will change nothing.

@BlueOcean Well if they weren't connected to real money they'd just be called "treasure chests" or "prizes."

"loot box", like "surprise mechanics" is a fun name invented by PR & Legal to describe gambling while spinning it as something other than gambling. Because it's even worse than gambling, you have zero chance to get more money than you started with, unlike real gambling. Vegas is actually more consumer friendly than EA/Apple/etc.

Better idea, ban the things.

@NEStalgia Yeah, then ban loot boxes, what I said earlier.

This is so evil and I am not even prone to gambling but I know people that have issues with this and of course kids unaware of the real intentions that lie under the surface and unaware (as we all were) of what uncontrolled spending implies.

Although not exactly loot boxes but a different version of the same idea, Nintendo Badge Arcade for 3DS has an extremely friendly and cute rabbit hiding something really wicked and clearly targets children...

http://badgearcade.nintendo.com/

...so I would include Nintendo as one of the evilest. Only laws can change this so kudos to Netherlands and Belgium but Nintendo just skips those countries so we need the whole EU (and UK) to do the same and then US and only then Nintendo and the other publishers will start caring.

@BlueOcean In the US, I think most states would encourage loot box gambling, so long as the state gets their cut..... Casinos in general are on the rise in a lot of states. My state never had legal gambling, and in the past decade opened it up....now there's casinos popping up all over.

You have a computer deciding when to go e you something. Ill take my chances with dice.

You're thinking about this all wrong. Lootboxes don't exist to get you in-game stuff, you are predominantly paying for the thrill of maybe getting that item. You think consciously that it's about that item, but on the unconscious level it is about something else entirely - a feeling, which acts as a drug. All fine if you know about it, not fine when you get caught up in it.

As a result of this disclosure I would expect to see more sophisticated mechanics being implemented e.g. lootboxes that have a very small chance of winning absolutely everything there is to win, which will bring this more in line with casinos, lottery etc., all proven to work. Etc.

Lootboxes should be included in the rating system of games

@RupeeClock yo, mr rupee-clock, hello!
i am BB10 clock, and i would like to discuss with you on a newgrounds/CC related topic, how can i contact you?

(also some of us wish to invite you to our CC themed discord server too, so plz let me know what you think, regardless if your answer is negative or not).

plz reply back, thanks.

@Joeynator3000 what? Gatcha games are loot boxes lmao. I play FEH every day and love it but it is stupid to say that it isn't a loot box game.

@Lemmy_the_Koopa I feel the exact same way. It is a positive step, but IMO the Big 3 are just being proactive before they get hit with a REAL regulation or law. By doing it themselves, they can avoid a future problem.

However, I also agree with others that outright banning gatcha/loot box is a little extreme. In the end, it comes down to education. Vote with your wallet. I remember about 10 years ago I played an MMORPG with loot boxes, and I was in High school with no income and no credit card. I really had to make hard decisions on when to save my money or spend it on the game.

In the end and with hindsight, I do not regret the $40ish overall that I spent on the game. I had learned the value of money by then. I understand that it's a completely different era now, with easy access to parents' credit cards, but still, I feel like if little Timmy is spending $$$$ on one game, well, it shouldn't be the government or Nintendo stopping him, it should be the PARENT.

In the famous words of Malcolm X: "you can't stick a knife in my back nine inches, pull it out six inches, and call it progress."

@StevenG

I really wish they would just ban them. Anything in loot boxes would be much better served as a normal unlockable anyway. I hate trying to get a certain skin only to get the feeling it's being withheld until I cough up real money or thousands of hours of grinding play time.

@joey302 What is this happy world you live in where you don't know what a loot box is? Can I come?

Would it kill Nintendo to have some sort of review system for the eshop?? Perhaps a good refund policy like Steam? Then I’ll feel like I can make “informed decisions.”

At Nintendo, ensuring that our customers can make informed choices when they play our games is very important.

So why didn't they do this sooner?

@BB10clock You sound just a little creepy. Is there a moderator around to check this out? Doesn’t feel right.

@HeroponRiki I did know what it was all along- just didn’t know what it was called lol. Never sucked me in either. Zero interest! And This seasoned gamer doesn’t bother with DLC either!

Can't blame Nintendo for jumping on board with this, but as a consumer the best way I can show my disdain for it is to not buy loot boxes. It's the smartphone model of either logging in and playing every day to fully level up a character in a year as opposed to dropping 5 bucks and getting it now. As a gamer I'd rather earn my upgrades and unlockables. I do value well done DLC content, though and appreciate the quality of what Nintendo has crafted for its games

@electrolite77 They did. While I don't know if this is true for all their mobile games but Fire Emblem Heroes tells you the exact percent of getting the characters each summon.

@Mr_Muscle Lol I was thinking something similar myself.

Since they are only mentioning the Nintendo Switch, i suppose it is implied that they do not intend to do the same for their mobile games, huh?
I guess that kinda makes sense since that would technically break their mobile games...

NOT ENOUGH

lootboxes are still gambling and should be banned

Valve discloses odds yet still proved those 1% odds can become 100%. It's all rigged.

There are completionists and gamers with OCD, and they can get addicted to a game with gambling. They feel the need to get 100% completion in their games, or at least that super special time-limited event lootbox item. They spend money until they get what they need to be happy. Companies with lootbox mechanics suck the blood out of those people.

Well, it's not my problem. I don't buy games with loot boxes. Even some Pokémon mechanics are too much of a gamble for me (and you don't even pay extra for the stuff you can get).

When randomness is used for luck that can result in hours of repetitive grind then you might want to do that once or twice in a game you otherwise love, but in the back of your head you'll always be glad to have other videogames that don't waste your time (or money).

Gamble is the same as playing against a randomness factor. It's ok when you're playing against it, but it's not ok when you're paying against it.

The only gamble/RNG that is positive in videogames is when it's free and in multiplayer (Mario Party, board/card cames because they still involve skill and/or strategy, and you can have fun with your friends, and it doesn't have a long lasting effect - sometimes you win, sometimes you lose), or when it's free and used for roguelike elements (to extend excitement, replayability, and variety).

I thought it was obvious the odds were really low? How does disclosing them fo anything?

It's like putting take two on a bottle of opioids and expecting an addict to actually follow those instructions.

Paid DLCs, Season Passes and lootboxes are the cancer of the video game industry.

But if nobody buys them, they'll cease to exist.

You can fight this cancer with your wallets so do it!

Make all games with puchaseable randomized lootboxes have a fat warning label similar to cigarettes and rate them 18+.
That would be justice.

If it's just skins and cosmetic stuff in these loot boxes, I don't have a problem with them, and I'm fairly sure most people know the odds are low of getting something specific that you want, and it's also personal choice to buy the damn things. If it's for weapons and lives to help you advance through the game, that's a disgrace. Warnings and notices of odds won't matter much; there needs to be enough of a consumer backlash to stop this practice.

@Mr_Muscle : mr muscle, rupee clock is one of my old friends+acquaintances, and we belong in the same (online) art group of animators, which is named the ''clockcrew'', as our usernames suggest.
(the ''clock part of our names, that is).

next time, dont call something creepy or weird if its not, and try to be less judgemental with other people's business, OK?
(also reporting a person for saying hello to an old friend is bad behaviour, mr snitch.)

have a nice day.

@BB10clock Hey, maybe if you have some kind of inside joke, don’t do it on a public forum where it can easily be misconstrued for something else. Especially where it’s hard to prove. Just saying, anonymity makes proving these things very difficult. Next time, be more cautious and you won’t arouse suspicion.

Not nearly enough and too little to late. Just get rid of loot boxes.

A small step in the right direction at least, but it's still putting a bandage on a brain tumour. The fact we have to rely on the console manufacturing corporations to regulate this, not the government, is tragic in itself.

@BlueOcean "Loot boxes should be banned in video games like in Netherlands and Belgium."

They aren't banned, games just need to be rated 18+ (loot boxes fall under the gambling laws, and it's illegal to (knowingly) offer gambling to anyone under 18). Nintendo (and other companies) don't want to give their cute games 18+ ratings because parents would then wonder why Animal Crossing is considered 18+, and then Nintendo (and other companies) would have to admit that they've added addiction-inducing gambling mechanics to their games for kids to make as much money as possible - so instead of changing the ratings, they just don't make these games available for the Belgian market.

If, by miracle, all countries in the world would agree that digital gambling mechanics should only be in games for adults, thereby forcing Nintendo (and other game companies) to use an 18+ rating for their games all over the world, lootboxes and other such mechanics would immediately be removed.

@nintendoknife Thanks for clarifying and I totally agree with your very well written comment. Nintendo prefers to ignore people living in Netherlands and Belgium but if the whole EU did the same then Nintendo would start caring.

Lootboxes would better be banned altogether. In Belgium games with microtransactions are forbidden!

Lootboxes aren't forbidden in Holland.