WatsonWatson

@Chocobo_Shepherd

What did I misunderstand?

Credits aren't for your personal enjoyment. They are to credit people.

@Chocobo_Shepherd

An argument based on "they never did that before" is a bad argument.

Also, we are discussing credit for video game developers, not people on movie sets.

@Shambo

In general, I agree with the point you're making, although I look at it from a slightly different angle--the system you describe entraps people, making the lifestyle choices you advocate for are out of reach, or beyond their control. So I would blame the system, not the person.

And also, I would never begrudge someone buying a gaming chair if they wanted one. Hobbies can be enriching, and sometimes enrichment involves an expensive chair!

@Shambo

I believe the chair reviewed here cost $795. The higher price was in reference to a different model.

@Rambler

Been a while for me, but I believe the pooing is food poisoning from a bad fish.

@ComfyAko

I read those statements as meaning that the design choice didn't work with some puzzles in the game. Not arguing your point about puzzles and solutions, more just offering that I didn't read them as contradictory necessarily. Like a bad clue in a crossword puzzle, maybe?

@Wexter

Definitely agree on your assessment of how those words are used interchangeably, which definitely doesn't help. Some of the gray area on who to credit and who not to credit stems from that for sure. That's another reason why I would err on the side of more expansive credits in a lot of instances.

I think even understanding the different types of work that go into a remaster/remake/reimagining might hinder a general consumers ability to differentiate between something new and something old. I definitely don't know how it works. But I do think it's clear, at least on the surface, that this version relies heavily on the original.

Given the video game industry's penchant for re-releases, anniversaries editions, and however else they repackage their games, its easy to envision a future that includes a reimaging of the 2030 remastered version of Metroid Prime. There is a slight ship of theseus feel to the debate here. For all those reason, I would reiterate that I err on the side of more credits, but I get the other side of the argument. I think video games are art, even if they're commissioned art, and I think the debate here highlights some of the issues that arise when commerce and art mingle. It gets complicated!

@FantasiaWHT

Plenty of books and articles include citations and bibliographies and acknowledgement sections, and music releases typically issue production/writing credits. Most of those examples fall under the scope of entertainment, but not all. If you wanna get weird and broad, the US Supreme Court likes to cite the constitution and older legal documents when they issue their briefs, verdicts, whatever.

Also, I think part of the argument here is about what would be the best practice, as opposed to what the practice currently is. For example, it might actually be worthwhile to credit every assembly line worker at the car manufacturer. I think the lack of credit people receive for their work is more a result of an imperfect system rather than a reflection of who does and does not deserve credit.

In this instance, and specifically in regards to the arts--which I would argue includes video games--I think the best practice is to err on the side of over crediting. While it's true that it's easy to find the information on one's own, I also don't think it would be too difficult to include the info on the release.

I do think there are probably gray areas, especially with a remake, but as others have pointed out thus is a remaster and pretty much the same game.

@Wheatly

Fair! And I don't wanna harp on someone who disagrees. I do think it's a valid concern for the previous team raise and worth discussing, both seriously and informally in a context like this. I'll be interested to see if any changes come, but until then, cheers and thanks for sharing your thoughts!

@Wheatly

I'm suggesting that the card displayed at the end of the game is not equivalent to a citation in an article, or a citation in a bibliography, as it is too broad to encompass the full requirements of a standard citation, at least in this analogy. Some times that does happen, and the author cites the information that they have, but in this instance the publisher/new developers opted for a blanket statement despite having fuller details. The developers were free to do so, but the question remains: how much credit should the original team recieve?

Also, whether or not an audience actually reads the credits isn' the question. The question is whether or not the original development team should receive a more thorough credit.

For me, an easier way to answer the question is to ask why shouldn't the original developers receive a more extensive credit? What is the argument for denying the original team a more extensive credit?

Personally, at least in this instance, I don't think there is a convincing argument that the original team shouldn't receive a more extensive credit, at least hypothetically. I'm sure we can agree the real word situation has a lot of parts, probably with contracts and all that, but it's an interesting question to consider as more games receive remaster and remakes and all that.

@Wheatly

As far as examples outside of the entertainment industry, a good comparison might be academic journal articles, scientific or otherwise, or a nonfiction book that synthesizes a large amount of info--new articles, books, etc., need to cite their sources.

Another good point of comparison might be allusions to other works in film and TV and literature. I'm currently reading the Day of the Triffids, and the screenwriter of 28 Days Later took inspiration from that novel for the opening scene of the film. In an instance like that, I don't necessarily think Alex Garland (the writer) needs to cite the novel.

The difference between the two comes down to the admittedly murky idea of if a game, book, whatever is a new thing or a continuation of someone else's work. Science articles build on the work of others directly, but literary allusions and the like create new content from old pieces.

But since it's so murky, I prefer to follow the advice from teachers--when in doubt, add a citation. I don't see any harm in crediting the previous work, so why not?

I'm gonna agree with "more credits plz" crowd, simply bc this developer dude worked on a game and is asking to be credited. Also, I realize this is a remaster, but even chickens give credit to eggs.

@Tom-Massey

Thanks for responding!

I've witnessed plenty of articles on NL receiving a divisive response, but the reaction to this one still surprised me a bit. And some of the complaints are head scratchers--I really don't think a reviewer needs to concern themselves with Metacritic or Google results. If anything, those complaints are indicative of a systemic problem with Metacritic and all those sites. It's totally fine if a reader only wants a blurb and a numerical grade, but those sites link to the full article for a reason, ya know?

Anyway, good review! I think the aim is clear and I appreciate the perspective.

@KingMike

Pretty interesting story that's covered in the recent documentary Redeem Team on Netflix, if you're curious!

@jamesthemagi

The primary point I'm trying to make is that there isn't a wrong way to write a review. I think there are characteristics a reader will look for and want, but ultimately a review is a text and the reader can respond how they see fit, but the reader can't dictate the content. Basically, the reviewers job is to produce the content, and then the reader can react. Obviously reviewers can adjust what they produce based on reader response, but I don't think it's necessary. I think you can say a reviewer did a bad job, but not a wrong job.

I don't think the Olympic comparison works that well, simply because systems are usually in place to prevent that kind of judging. There's a governing body and all that, although sometimes that doesn't work either. Just ask the 72 US men's basketball team. I think the closest thing to a governing body in this instance would be the NL editors and they published the piece.

I understand if you disagree, and I don't think I'm going to sway your opinion, but I enjoy having a variety of review types and figured I would clarify my thoughts.

Cheers!

@jamesthemagi

I see your point, but I still think it's in line with other comments arguing about what a review should do or be. A review doesn't necessarily need to stand the test of time, something NL readers are familiar with given recent discussions about the release of GoldenEye and so on. It's OK for a review to be contemporaneous with its publication date.

I also think the inverse of your argument could be true, meaning a review score for a game could increase over time depending on price fluctuations. That one year old game that scored a 7 might feel like a 9 at a 50% discount. Basically, I don't think it's necessary for a review to take any of these ideas into account, but a review can. (Can I pitch this idea--9s at 50%?)

And it's cool if someone disagrees or dislikes a review, but some of the comments are trending more toward "the reviewer is doing it wrong," which I don't think is true.

@jamesthemagi

I dunno, your argument means there's only one type of review, but I don't think that's the case. If a reviewer wants to include a financial component, they certainly can, as this reviewer did. It's not verboten.

A review is an argument, basically. This reviewer argued against this collection.

@jamesthemagi

Isn't the entire review subjective?

Joining the conversation to express my surprise at the negative reaction to this review. I don't often see prices come into play with video games, but I don't think it's unusual, and in reviews of other products/media/microwaves, price often comes into the discussion.

I’m excited. I can’t remember if I ever played Paper Mario 64, so either it will be a new experience, or I’ll recall a lost memory. A win for me.

As a person with creative pursuits, I understand fanart/fanfic, because it makes sense to create imitations in order to see how a particular “thing” works.

Some of these projects lose me, though, and like other posters, I wonder why the folks creating these games don’t funnel their energies into a more full-fledged project of their own. Or is this kind of project a good learning experience? But then why announce it?

@durrdevil

Sure, why not?

@nessisonett

Jennifer’s Body is a good time. That emo/indie song is catchy and pretty perfectly of the time.

I’m more curious about performance and the new controls, although the images do beat my memory.

I’ve never played San Andreas and currently only game on a switch, so could be a good opportunity for me.

@Clyde_Radcliffe I’ll give Sin and punishment a go as well, but I’m not usually into rail shooters.

I also want to give Phantasy Star IV another shot, although I recall having a difficult time figuring out the effects of different spells, etc. because there’s not much in the way of explanation. Refreshing, but challenging! And the cutscenes are a delight.

I’ll start with games I’ve never played before, like Winback and Castlevania Bloodlines. Also curious about Yoshi.

Echoing some opinions expressed already, but the price would be more palatable if Nintendo had details on future releases. Personally, I’ll pay because I want to play the 64 games and have the extra funds to afford the convenience, but I fully recognize that the price increase is a jump for some, especially without the aforementioned promise of regularly scheduled releases.

The sporadic updates to the NES and SNES libraries are easier to handle at the moment because of the price, although I do think they need to balance the garbage a bit. The recent DK+random title release worked for me, but I also like exploring kinda janky old games. There is a narrow field of appreciation for that sort of thing though.

@KillerBOB

I’m not sure I understand this argument. The quality of a game will dip if accessibility options are added? How so?

@DK-Fan

How small is the demographic?

@nessisonett

Yeah, in the past year I’ve read some great articles on NL (including this one) but they often attract hundreds of lame comments.

The insistence on this sort of ableist gatekeeping is bizarre, especially when the arguments center on armchair economics or a “tough sh**” stance.

@Entrr_username

I appreciated the joke.

@Seanmyster6

What?

I plan on digging into Mario+Rabbids. My first time, and I’m impressed so far—a few battles have offered a challenge but nothing frustrating.

@Crono1973

How are prison populations related to CEOs?

@Crono1973

I have been reading the thread, but maybe I missed something, so how does that argument go? I’m not sure I can see the connection.

@Crono1973

Just for clarification, are you using the male prison/unhoused population to argue that society is not male dominated?

@bobzbulder

I think you’re making a disingenuous interpretation of that statement, and I’m not sure how pursuing inclusion would limit creativity. I doubt that every creator in the world will be given a blanket directive and checklist to include x, y, and z, but clearly there’s a public desire for better representation in media, based on this article and others, and the ongoing public discourse. Also, games, along with many other types of media, can be more than escapism, and working within the narrow definition of “games as escapism” presents an interesting question/dilemma —basically, video games are escapism for whom? Everyone? And is that all they are?

@TheWingedAvenger working on anything in particular? To make a friend laugh I recently tried to learn Tainted Love but with a bossa nova rhythm.

I’m going to try out Crying Suns this afternoon. Was not on my radar until the mention by Gonçalo Lopes above—anyone on here have any experience with the game?

@PoliticallyIncorrect I think out of the Disney releases the Solo movie and Rise of the Skywalker were the low points for me. Mando was good, too, and overall I think the Disney releases are livelier than the prequels, although those films are at least interesting as being so thoroughly George Lucas (not always a good thing, but interesting!)

@Kalmaro also plz prove consciousness isn’t an illusion created by a small demon.

The end. Also congrats to Aerial_Knight, I will buy your game, and thanks to Kate Gray for her writing.

@Kalmaro did you use the phrase “boy crying wolf” in reference to the developer?

@Kalmaro If the internet were an actual court (I’m thankful it’s not), then, yeah, someone needs to provide evidence.

But if you’d like, we can do it the other way, so here: contrary to what you said, you have made other claims, namely, that the game developer is a liar, so please provide evidence that proves his pants are on fire.

@Kalmaro The existence of systemic racism in industries and institutions across American is demonstrable, as others have pointed out. Discriminatory hiring practices exist, it's not a question of a few "racist jerks," it's a wide spread problem. If the game developer in the article wants to file suit, they should, but as for where you figure into the equation of proven/unproven: you don't. That may sound harsh, but no one has to prove anything to you or present you with any evidence. If you want some, go investigate. No one owes you a platter of reading material.

@Kalmaro In the United States, both now and historically, (again, contextualized in the US because the game developer is from Detroit) not everyone is afforded the same privileges. This isn't a contestable point--its part of American history and still exists to this day and has been studied and examined, as other commenters have pointed out. While, sure, you can argue that the game developer's comments might be overblown or exaggerated--which I don't think is true--you can not argue away the characteristics and history of the society from which they emerged. I don't want to be dismissive, but I would urge you to consider some of the other viewpoints here and perhaps read some of the links a few of the other commenters provided, or perhaps strike out on your own.

@BloodNinja It’s possible he created a lackluster game and faced discrimination. They can both be true. Also, saying someone “played the race card” can be a pretty dismissive rhetorical device that doesn’t engage with the argument in question, or the voiced concerns of someone facing discrimination, and relies entirely on a reading of persons appearance.

@Kalmaro I should clarify and say, “within the context of US.” I understand this site is based in the U.K., but the subject of the article is from Detroit, so that’s how I contextualized a lot of the discussion—despite references to other nations/peoples—and as such, it’s a little disingenuous to describe any kind of collective whiteness as having an overarching goal/hand in eradicating slavery. There were a lot of different actors with different goals, not all of them altruistic, and the actual abolishment of slavery didn’t occur in one fell swoop—Jim Crow laws—and, in some sense, lingers to this day in a variety of racist practices within the country, such as a the recent voter suppression laws in Georgia. If an individual has a white relative they can point to who participated in the Civil Rights Movement or fought for abolition, then by all means, be proud—but also understand that their whiteness often provided them with privelaged protections denied to other classes of people.

I’m surprised to discover that there are white people who take pride in “ending slavery.”

In regards to the article, I do not doubt the game developer faced discrimination—as others have pointed out, most industries are not meritocratic, and unconscious/conscious biases create racist industries. Further, maybe anyone reading the article in disbelief might want to consider why they don’t believe the game developer.

@Kiz3000 While I enjoy bird themes, I have brought the physical version to my gaming group and everyone agreed with one player who said something like, “The birds are nice, but you could do this with basically anything.”

It was meant as a compliment—the mechanics are just that fun, although the birds enhance the experience in a way.