Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild

To be fair, this describes both LTTP and ALBW's entire overworld and sidequesting imo.

I thought the item upgrading system in ALBW was neat. Too bad it didn't amount to much, since the game isn't particularly difficult even without upgrading any items at all.

Well, like it or not, Nintendo is falling into the nonlinear open world, bigger = better next gen fallacy that all AAA developers have been recently with Zelda U. I hope that turns out well. We do not, however, need Zelda to be GTA or Fallout. There are few enough fantasy games as it is. Zelda has always had one of the most intriguing fantasy worlds and I'm sure they can still try different things to add interest.

And to whoever compared this to Zelda 1 or LTTP stop, look in the mirror, and check yo self. The 3D Zelda series has always been linear and they are great games because of it. Get that Zelda 1 trash out of here, I'll take even Skyward Sword over that any day.

I agree, the story progression made for some great experiences. I like the 3d zeldas far more than the 2d ones, even though I was already gaming back then. And you’re right that they should try and avoid the open world + bigger = better false logic.

But perhaps that is what they were doing, and the delay happened to make sure that that is not what it’s going to be. I mean, they all of a sudden had great ideas and direction and up comes aonuma telling everyone we’re going to have to wait a little longer. Of course, this might tie in neatly with whatever nx or online capabilities lie in the future, or might just as well have little to do with it, but nintendo would be fools to not make one of their most respected franchises anything but a lovely experience.

Oh, and I really liked skyward sword for what it was. It really is a great game, in my opinion.

It was a good game in mine.

While the 3D games have been mainly linear, there has been very noticeable nonlinear parts, for example the order of adult temple completion in Ocarina of Time. My most recent playthrough had the order be Forest, Water, Spirit, Fire, Shadow which is very different from the intended Forest, Fire, Water, Shadow, Spirit. There's a decent amount of nonlinearity in that game but if you listen to Navi's advice then you'll end up with the same linear path repeatedly.

"Zelda was a mistake. It's nothing but trash."
-Shigeru Miyamoto

Seriously though, like it or not, more than 4/17 official Zelda games count as Zelda games. Nintendo doesn't care that you don't think that the majority of the series is worthwhile.

If there hasn't been a statement more rooted in sole opinion, this takes it.

Hulk is not happy with insults to Zelda 1. Your fanship has been revoked.

Whatttt? I didn't even know that was possible. You sure bout this?

It's possible. You have to beat the Forest, Fire and Water Temple in order to enter the Shadow. There are some glitches that allow you to surpass certain items, like the Fairy Bow and Hover Boots, but even without I think you can do the Fire Temple as your first, second or even third dungeon. But that's about it I believe.

For Ocarina of Time, I'm pretty sure the only temple you can't do in any order (without glitches) is the Shadow one. The Forest, Fire and Water ones are all accessible right after getting the hookshot, and the Spirit one is doable with the Longshot alone rather than requiring the Hover Boots. You also don't need the Lens of Truth (if you've got a really good memory or a video walkthrough), but even if you did, you can enter the Bottom of the Well at any time after travelling back to the past.

Back to the topic though, I think the new Zelda game will be just fine. Yes, the footage looked a bit rough, but it's early days yet, and it's likely the games will have a lot more of an interesting world than we can even imagine...

Here's the thing, though, the story essentially pauses during the adult Link period. Sure, you get little scenes with Sheik and a few events that don't affect the bigger picture, but nothing really changes. Ganondorf is still in his tower, Zelda is still missing, and the kingdom is still conquered. Nonlinear structure like that doesn't allow for big world-changing events, or really much freedom in the plot at all. If every dungeon in Zelda U is that way then the world won't change at all in the course of that adventure. You know that Ganondorf will still be at large until you beat all 9 dungeons (or however many there are) and unite the 9 mystical mcguffins.

And I really don't how my liking Zelda being basically confined to the 3D games is so shocking. The 2D games that I've played are just so basic as to be boorish to me. shrug

isn't that interesting, because it's OOT.

I mean, a lot of the twists and important events were amazing at the time and I still kinda love the ending, but beyond nostalgia, it's probably the best example of the game being disappointing by comparison to later 3D Zeldas, especially in terms of dialogue. In terms of "caring about playing this game", story is the last part of the game worth caring about quite honestly (which makes Majora's Mask successes in that regard kinda shocking).

That being said, barring maybe the Water/Fire Temples, I don't think nearly anyone plays the Temples out of order anyway...

That's just my point, though. Ocarina of Time and any similarly nonlinear game are narratively constrained by that structure.

I mean, a lot of the twists and important events were amazing at the time and I still kinda love the ending, but beyond nostalgia, it's probably the best example of the game being disappointing by comparison to later 3D Zeldas, especially in terms of dialogue.

Exactly. The later 3D Zelda's were increasingly linear and had better narratives by general reckoning. Correlation or causation can be argued, but that relationship shouldn't be ignored.

They don't have to be narratively constrained that way. Many games are now, yes.

But it's also quite possible to have a setup where say, dramatic events befall the world even in a completely sandbox style one. You could easily have it so after some point, a crisis happens in the same way as the moon falling in Majora's Mask and suddenly you're on a timer and then have to do a certain quest or dungeon next to stop it. Or so that events like Ganon's forces taking over towns or areas happen after X number of dungeons regardless of which ones they are. Kind of like how in Mario 64 collecting stars altered the state of the world.

Heck, if Nintendo was really determined, they could make it so the state of each dungeon changed based on how early or late you attempted them. So the ones you went to later would have more and harder enemies, more tricky puzzles, changed room arrangements and bosses with new attacks and strategies. Ones you went to early would similarly have the opposite.

The only question is whether Nintendo would ever do that.

The issue with OoT's non-linearity is that it's more similar to the non-linearity of 3D Mario games. It just gives the player a choice in where they want to go next. At the same time, it completely fails in the concept of promoting free exploration.

I like this very much. If this is what they were doing, and it could be executed flawlessy, I'd give them permission to delay another year or two. Imagine the replay value. Dear Lord.

I'm really not ok with that kind of nonsense. Trying to ascertain 'true fans' and such is just a stupid definition war that ends up in arbitrary chest-beating. My first Zelda game was Ocarina of Time on the gamecube collector's edition disc (when I was ~8~). I loved Ocarina and Majora's Mask (and the glimpse of the Wind Waker), but had no time for Zelda 1 and 2. They were too hard for one, but moreover there was just nothing there. None of the story and world building that made the N64 titles so enticing. Heck, my first game, Super Mario Sunshine had more world building than Zelda 1.

By today's standards Zelda 1 is just a typical indie game. Sure it's foundational and all, but foundational doesn't mean much in the present. I'm a fan of the 3D Zelda games. I don't care for most 2D games and that's O.K. I'm not going to call someone out on their love of Zelda if they haven't played or didn't like whatever ancillary bit of the franchise. That would be like expecting a Halo fan to love Halo Wars on the name alone.

Continuing from Zelda WiiU Wishes. Thread was locked, but oh well, an excuse for me to talk about stuff that interests me and not particularly anyone else.

• Very limited RPG mechanics. Zelda is action-adventure, not RPG. No EXP system or character stats, etc. The equipment upgrade systems from Skyward Sword is about as RPG as I want it to get. Except not using the same boring loot farming upgrade system. Yuck.
• Huge, semi-linear world. I want it to be open and encourage exploration, but with in-game mechanics to limit progression, such as needing a certain item to get to a certain place. Like Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, but with bigger, more vast, more varied locations that make you want to spend hours just exploring new places.
• Unpredictable, inventive encounter design in the overworld and giving players a reason to actually engage in combat, maybe a hunting or mark system. Roaming optional bosses too, with no limits on difficulty for area. There's nothing wrong with throwing an superboss in a beginner's area. Players can just avoid it and come back later.
• Ditch gimmicky swordplay. Wind Waker still did it best, with different directional slashes, a stab, a leaping attack, and then blocking, dodging, and countering, all of this done with an analog stick and 2 buttons, 3 including targeting. Combat should be more challenging in Zelda U than it has been, but it should be quite basic at the core. Challenge can be achieved through better enemy AI, more precise timing required, and better use of weak points.
• Creative and difficult environmental puzzles in dungeons. I want to get stuck. Lots. And at the end of the dungeon, boss fight designs that go beyond simple finding weakness and exploiting it until dead.
• More sailing yaaaay, I need a boat, sails, and the open sea.