Most of Nintendo's games have a sense of whimsy and optimism, even at their darkest. But how would Nintendo be able to make a game replacing the happy endings and positive attitude, with an incredibly cynical and bleak outlook where evil is rewarded, heroes are shuned, and there is no happy ending? The best comparisons I can make are Invader Zim and The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, cartoons which have a very mean-spirited and cruel view of the world (and two of the few cartoons to get this sort of humor right).
This would imply that story or characterization or narrative themes would be a priority for Nintendo. At least for their main studios, this would probably only happen if it fit the type of gameplay they were trying to make.
I think old Rareware would've been (and in some ways were) a great developer to make something like this.
I think Twilight Princess is as far as Nintendo should go. Pretty much anything with a realistic aesthetic seems to sell terribly on their platforms. Look at the sales for ME3 and Deus Ex, 2 of the best games on the Wii U. But people just don't care.
I think Twilight Princess is as far as Nintendo should go. Pretty much anything with a realistic aesthetic seems to sell terribly on their platforms. Look at the sales for ME3 and Deus Ex, 2 of the best games on the Wii U. But people just don't care.
It doesn't have to be realistic though. I cited cartoons Invader Zim and Billy and Mandy as examples of what Nintendo could do in a game. Have a cartoony art style, but replace the optimism and whimsy with a manic, cynical tone filled with quirky, dark humor.
It doesn't have to be realistic though. I cited cartoons Invader Zim and Billy and Mandy as examples of what Nintendo could do in a game. Have a cartoony art style, but replace the optimism and whimsy with a manic, cynical tone filled with quirky, dark humor.
Never seen the cartoon you mention. How does it compare to something like Majora's Mask? Or Conker's Bad Fur Day?
It doesn't have to be realistic though. I cited cartoons Invader Zim and Billy and Mandy as examples of what Nintendo could do in a game. Have a cartoony art style, but replace the optimism and whimsy with a manic, cynical tone filled with quirky, dark humor.
Never seen the cartoon you mention. How does it compare to something like Majora's Mask? Or Conker's Bad Fur Day?
Majora's Mask still has a sense of hope despite the darker tone, and ends on a positive note. And Conker comes close, but that's a Rareware game, not Nintendo. Hell, Rare even published BFD themselves.
In Invader Zim, the show is very sadistic to it's characters, often killing them off or torturing them. Hell there's one scene in which Zim builds a machine to rip out a kids eyes, and the most infamous episode where he steals the organs of his fellow classmates.
Billy and Mandy is similar in a lot of ways, There's a scene in one episode where a kid wishes for a Bunny who turns out to be a demonic killer.
This is what I'm asking if Nintendo could do, something zany and cartoony, but with a very cruel and bleak tone.
No, because if not, then many people will think Nintendo is jumping on the "edgy for the sake of being edgy" bandwagon.
They did that with Twilight Princess and everyone was praising them for that.
Twilight Princess wasn't 'edgy', it just had a style that went for verisimilitude mixed with anime-ish faces and a muted color palette. It and Super Paper Mario both had moments of darkness, but a happy ending all the same. No character kill-offs either. I think Nintendo is willing to do darkness, see Majora's Mask, just not traumatic deaths or unhappy ending (at least in the past, anyway).
That being said, if at the end of the hypothetical battle with Ganondorf at the end of Zelda U, Link dies and it starts raining like at the end of the Wind Waker I would Freak. Out. That could be so good if done right, and it hardly prevents the game from being fun.
It doesn't really matter right now, as until Xenoblade (also not great at kill-offs), Zelda, or Paper Mario come out there aren't any serious narrative first party games. And this conversation doesn't make much sense outside of that context.
It doesn't have to be realistic though. I cited cartoons Invader Zim and Billy and Mandy as examples of what Nintendo could do in a game. Have a cartoony art style, but replace the optimism and whimsy with a manic, cynical tone filled with quirky, dark humor.
Never seen the cartoon you mention. How does it compare to something like Majora's Mask? Or Conker's Bad Fur Day?
Majora's Mask still has a sense of hope despite the darker tone, and ends on a positive note.
Even the Last of Us has a sense of hope despite its darkness. If there is no hope in your world or story then you've just failed narratively, because no hope = no stakes = no motivation to persevere through hard gameplay. That's how I feel about Dark Souls, Darkest Dungeon, and, to a lesser extent, Rogue Legacy.
And several variants of Majora's Mask end in the genocide of all of your friends via lunar impact, so I wouldn't say it's 'happy' even if the canon ending is positive.
I agree it isn't really there style but I would die happy if they ever released a game where you play as Bowser and the Koopalings trying to wreck havoc on the Mushroom Kingdom.
As far as I know even the darkest games usually have a good ending where there is at least one big positive thing to be happy about, afterall the ending is the reward for the player after hours and hours of playing the game, a bad ending turning the tables and proving all the player did was useless... it's honestly a mean-spirited action towards the player, not the narrative!
Plus most games, including nintendo ones, technically have a bad ending, this ending be the Game Over with some games even underlining how bad things went down cause the player's failure.
The Game Over push the player to win and avoid the terrible events that only his/her success can stop and by doing so is rewarded with an ending showing that he/she did it. Some games even go further and use sub-quests or choices for change the ending, but it's simply a deeper "reward ending system" so to speak.
There are exceptions of course, especially in the horror genre, but they are exceptions for a reason and personally I think it's a general matter, not a Nintendo one. Regarding Nintendo specifically I think that games like Majora Mask proved that they can pull of a dark edgy atmosphere, so it's just a matter of chances and projects fitting the setting, not a "need to be positive-happy-kid-friendly" thing.
As far as I know even the darkest games usually have a good ending where there is at least one big positive thing to be happy about, afterall the ending is the reward for the player after hours and hours of playing the game, a bad ending turning the tables and proving all the player did was useless... it's honestly a mean-spirited action towards the player, not the narrative!
Stop pigeon-holing an entire artform. Games that want to end in a sad way should do so. The Fall of Reach was literally the best part of Halo Reach's story.
Actually, there are lots of deaths in Majora's Mask. They just all happen to characters either in alternate "didn't get saved" endings or before Link even arrives in Termina. For example the little deku sprout in that introductory area seems to have a relation to the butler, as you see him moarning by it in the end credits. I assume the Skull Kid killed him and his essence is what Link's Deku Mask is made of.
As I typed this I remembered Mikau, how could I forget? He dies right in front of you! You bury him and everything.
um, they have shown several times that they can do dark moods and crude humour. twilight princess, majoras mask, warioware. they can make a "mean-spirited" game if they try
Actually, there are lots of deaths in Majora's Mask. They just all happen to characters either in alternate "didn't get saved" endings or before Link even arrives in Termina. For example the little deku sprout in that introductory area seems to have a relation to the butler, as you see him moarning by it in the end credits. I assume the Skull Kid killed him and his essence is what Link's Deku Mask is made of.
As I typed this I remembered Mikau, how could I forget? He dies right in front of you! You bury him and everything.
Like I said, those weren't traumatic. You were never there to watch anyone be murdered (or fatally wounded in Mikau's case).
I think they probably could.
Their games already have dark elements that could easily be made depressing as hell (think much of Termina's situation in Majora's Mask, the Shadow Temple and Well in Ocarina of Time, everything about Cipher in Pokemon Colosseum, just about the whole alien invasion in Mario & Luigi Partners in Time). They'd just need to remove the happy ending bit and have the heroes foiled at every turn.
Heck, ever played Mario & Luigi Dream Team? It's not a dark game in any way, but the first half of the game is pretty much best summed up as 'the heroes fail miserably at everything they do, and everyone you meet is a jerk'. The heroes lose the magical item to the antagonists. Islands get blown up by a death ray, the heroes get trapped in the Dream World while everyone else falls asleep and has their energy sucked out of them. They waste about three hours trying to help a version of Peach who's an imposter (while the real one has been captured elsewhere). Nintendo can definitely make at least part of a game mean spirited, even for titles that aren't even meant to be dark in any way whatsoever.
Nintendo could definitely make a 'mean' game, if they upped all the 'dark' elements to eleven and made all the NPCs either near suicidally depressed or sociopathic. But should they? No. Because unless you're the villain (which admittedly would be cool), I'm not sure what the point of even playing through such an adventure is. You pretty much achieve nothing.
I hope they dont try to imitate the other companies... I am so happy with their games, I wouldnt want them to change...
Recently I read an article about the new witcher game, it contains lots of sex, blood, gore and other dark themes. Wow! if thats what makes a good game... I rather stick with nintendo...
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Topic: Can Nintendo do a "Mean-Spirited" game?
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