@otterskateboard Oh wow! To think of all the people who would come to my aid, it would be you! Hello adam! I haven't checked in on the Wii U in a while unfortunately, so both Mario Maker and any form of Wii U communication have been very much neglected. I'll go give it a look after I post this.
I was wondering what we'd do after the Switch-pocalypse happens and the poor Wii U is all but laid to rest, but having a touch-point here should make the transition a lot smoother. Are you getting one at launch, or holding off for a bit (or just, not getting one at all)?
I tried one out at an event earlier today. It was actually quite a shock moving from the saggy old armchair of the Gamepad to some sort of hyper-post-modern-über chair owned by a slightly terse architect living in a trapezoidal building made out of glass and bubinga. By which I mean the Switch. I'd heard people say it "doesn't feel like a Nintendo product" before, but what they meant had never really clicked with me before... I'd assumed it was mainly aesthetic, but the size, shape, layout and - crucially - response of the buttons was significantly different from either the Wii U or 3DS (or really anything that game before them).
To be honest, it was a bit jarring at first. The build quality was evidently higher than anything they'd made previously, but I'd grown quite fond on the comforting chunk and squishiness of the Wii U's flagship controller, and I wasn't fully prepared to move onto something slicker. The new, smaller, low profile buttons have a much tighter, more binary feel to them than the relative cushions of the Gamepad, which I actually found rather clinical at first. I suppose the 3DS is a closer relative, but they feel different to even that.
Anyway, I eventually adjusted throughout the event, and by the end of it had grown a lot warmer to it by the time I had to leave. I managed to find my moojoo in Spla2oon (8-0 k/d, 2000pts yo) with the Joy-Con Grip, and that felt really good after finishing the first game. Discernibly better than the Wii U, even though I was still adjusting.
Most of the games were as I was expecting. The Zelda demo gave you enough time to... do exactly the same as everyone else you've ever seen play the Zelda demo. The event staff dutifully inform you that "anywhere you can see, you can go", but omits adding that in the remaining demo time (after you've got out of the cave), that "anywhere" is basically reduced to "down this hill". Which is fair enough - they've got to shift people through the game stands after all - but it doesn't sell the game's strong points as well as some of the other titles on offer.
Spla2oon however, does. Splatoon is just frickin aceballs. It looks and feels better than the Wii U version, but ultimately has the same foundation of awesome gameplay. I'll never get over ranting about how inspired that game is.
Snipperclips was also as good as I was hoping. It looks charming and plays beautifully, and is just as hilarious as the Treehouse team made it look (even having seen the levels before). Even thinking about it makes me want to giggle. Waiting in the queue, I saw multiple ways that people tackled the same task, and they all felt like the correct solution. It's a perfect example of problem solving, as opposed to puzzle solving, and it's brilliant. I only hope the final package has enough content and variety to keep providing dumb laughs.
Ball Count does indeed sell the HD Rumble perfectly. I'm pretty convinced it justifies whatever extra cost it adds to the system (unless it's really stupid). I only hope it gets used. I didn't try Milk or Bang Bang Cowboy Guns, but I didn't feel unduly crestfallen.
Interestingly, I've come away completely cold on ARMS. It just... didn't click with me. I didn't properly work out how to move forwards or backwards... or left or right (so basically, how to move at all), and the time you have to wait between throwing each punch means I was left feeling only frozen a lot of the time, like a sitting duck. With extendable arms. Anyway, maybe it just needs more time. People wrote hysterical articles about not getting to grips with Star Fox Zero based on their demo playthoughs, and a lot of them then turned into hysterical reviews, despite the final game being... well, fine. Perhaps it's really satisfying if you'd learnt how to play it, but at the moment it's not high on my hot list.
Didn't get to play Mario Kart (got the Wii U version), but it does look like a perfect fit for the system, and if enough people I know buy it, I'll be tempted to get it again.
So yeah, I've come away with similar reactions to most people. Great, slick piece of chameleon tech with a few excellent games lined up, although it doesn't feel like they've quite opened the floodgates. I've got hopes quite high for its future though. For one thing, I only went to the event because my 'PC Master Race' brother was so friggin hyped for the system, and this is someone who I've given up selling Nintendo to after years of trying. If it can tempt him, it can probably tempt anyone.
Now I can stop pretending this thread is a personal blog.
I saw a comment somewhere talking about how underpowered the Switch is compared to the XBOne. So here's some food for thought when talking about the power of the Switch. You need to put it into context. Here's some context. An ordered list of how far behind competing consoles have been in the last few generations. Starting from the most behind to the closest.
20-400x (not even in the same ball park, lots of pre-Switch portables)
DS vs 360
3DS vs PS4
DS vs PS3
3DS vs XBOne 3DS vs Switch
PSP vs PS3
Vita vs PS4
DS vs Wii
5-20x (about a generation behind)
Wii vs 360
Wii vs PS3
7th gen vs 8th gen on average. Under this is less than a generation behind. Switch undocked vs Project Scorpio
3DS vs Vita Switch undocked vs PS4 Pro
Vita vs Wii U Switch docked vs Project Scorpio
Wii U vs PS4
2-5x (close enough that a lot of games could be ported over with reduced settings) Switch docked vs PS4 Pro
PSP vs Wii <- The closest (recent) portable to a home console before the Switch
XBone vs Project Scorpio
DS vs PSP Switch undocked vs PS4 <- seriously, look at how many things are above these two ^^^
Wii U vs XBOne
PS4 vs Project Scorpio
XBOne vs PS4 Pro
PS4 vs PS4 Pro Switch undocked vs XBOne
1-2x (close enough that you're comparing framerates rather than libraries) Switch docked vs PS4 Switch docked vs XBOne
PS4 Pro vs Project Scorpio
XBOne vs PS4
360 vs PS3
We do not know the specs of the switch, so this kind of comparison is pointless. We also don't know it will be significantly faster when docked as you seem to imply.
@Therad
We know enough about the specs of the Switch to make a list like the one above for use in a forum discussion. We know that it's a bit above the Wii U when undocked and a bit under XBOne when docked. Whether it's 20% under the XBOne or 50% under the XBOne when docked doesn't really change the point much.
If it was as close to the PS4 as the PSP was to the PS3? It would be getting downgraded ports of Vita games. It wouldn't be running Wii U games at generally higher framerates in portable mode. As a portable it's unprecedented. But as a home console? It is to Project Scorpio when docked what the Wii U was to the PS4. Which in turn is less behind the curve than what the Wii was when it launched.
Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"
@skywake So if we go by your list, Switch's 3rd party support will mostly depend on whether Microsoft kept their E3 2016 promise of "No-one gets left behind" with regards to XB1 support when Scorpio comes out.
@Grumblevolcano
In terms of the hardware itself? All things being equal, pretty much. But how that actually pans out will depend on a lot of other factors. Like how hard the game is pushing the XBOne/PS4, how decent the port is and so on. There are also other limitations on the Switch like the capacity of cartridges, limited storage expansion options and the fact that it's not necessarily always online.
But there have been far less competitive pieces of hardware in the past that have managed just fine.
Sony and microsoft want the power race to be theirs. This means they need to iterate quicker than the market allows.
So their lowest common denominator is easy to match for the switch. And they are stuck to it. In fact, nintendo out manoeuvres these two with it from a market position standpoint. Their fallback scenario is good too - where you'll have a great nintendo system whether the libraries overlap significantly or only marginally.
Switch is a good thing for nintendo. For sony or microsoft to win the race they are in, they need to give up some of their footprint.
Going back to the voice chat being on the console itself I think this would cause problems with connections. Having a hard wired headset means you would have to have a jack on all controller configurations of which the switch has quite a few. Then imagine a game like Arms where you use the motion controls vigorously. How many times would you yank the headset off throwing an aggressive punch. The work around would be Bluetooth of course but anyone who uses Bluetooth connections even on low power knows how quickly they burn through you battery.
Going back to the voice chat being on the console itself I think this would cause problems with connections. Having a hard wired headset means you would have to have a jack on all controller configurations of which the switch has quite a few. Then imagine a game like Arms where you use the motion controls vigorously. How many times would you yank the headset off throwing an aggressive punch. The work around would be Bluetooth of course but anyone who uses Bluetooth connections even on low power knows how quickly they burn through you battery.
Arms can have a normal button set up tho and it looks like a game designed for local multiplayer than anything else.
@jump True but Arms with normal controls doesn't look very special. I haven't played it yet but it's seems to be a game that comes alive with motion controls.
jump True but Arms with normal controls doesn't look very special. I haven't played it yet but it's seems to be a game that comes alive with motion controls.
I honestly find the mechanics of the game more interesting than the motion controls to the point where the motion controls could harm the game's appeal, especially when fighters rely on reflexes rather than how hard you waggle.
It's an arena fighter played like a boxing game with shooter elements thrown in. The presentation is great too, the music reminds me a rocky-esque boxing film with the pump of it being a theme of the tv coverage for the World Cup when it's Spain or Brazil.
@Therad
We know enough about the specs of the Switch to make a list like the one above for use in a forum discussion. We know that it's a bit above the Wii U when undocked and a bit under XBOne when docked. Whether it's 20% under the XBOne or 50% under the XBOne when docked doesn't really change the point much.
If it was as close to the PS4 as the PSP was to the PS3? It would be getting downgraded ports of Vita games. It wouldn't be running Wii U games at generally higher framerates in portable mode. As a portable it's unprecedented. But as a home console? It is to Project Scorpio when docked what the Wii U was to the PS4. Which in turn is less behind the curve than what the Wii was when it launched.
No, we do not know that. We have heard rumours about it.
But if we take your listed values, we would get a machine with 368-655 Gflops when undocked, and 920-1311 Gflops when docked. I don't think we are anywhere near those numbers, at least not the docked values.
If I would make a prediction, I would say it will have X1 performance when docked, and slightly less when undocked. So 512 Gflops dock and 435 gflops undocked. This seems to be in line with the reports on the performance of breath of the wild.
So to compare it with the power twins would be:
ps4 = 3.5x instead of 1-2x
xbox one = 2.5x instead of 1-2x
ps4 pro = 8x instead of 2-5x
Scorpio = 11x instead of 5-20x (ok, give you this one)
If it is x2 (750 Gflops) it would change the equation of course:
ps4 = 2.5x (still outside your range)
Xbox One = 1.7x
ps4 pro = 5.6x
Scorpio = 8x
So if we would get the latest games from PS4 or Xbox One, regardless if it is x1 or x2, they need to reduce the visuals. It is not impossible, and should be fairly straight forward since Nintendo seems to be embracing industry standards.
@Therad The Foxconn rumour is pretty legit, everything we know so far was 'predicted' in the Foxconn rumour. PS4 Pro was leaked in a similar fashion, so no, I do think that we have a pretty accurate image of what's inside the Switch and what it can do.
@skywake So if we go by your list, Switch's 3rd party support will mostly depend on whether Microsoft kept their E3 2016 promise of "No-one gets left behind" with regards to XB1 support when Scorpio comes out.
I think it will depend on how Nintendo markets the Switch and the commercial deals they offer publishers.
Power matters in some respects - it's true - and the more power you have the easier porting is but the question of "will this sell" matters more to publishers. Especially since so almost all of the things that the extra power is used for these days is purely visual (and often minor) - things that most people probably wouldn't even be able to see on a tiny screen anyway.
It's just a matter of answering the question of "will the people who've bought this device be interested in this game - even if it's a latecomer and doesn't look as good at the top spec version?".
On a similar but slightly different topic I do think Nintendo is naive when it comes to handling some Western publishers and developers. When developers like Gearbox come out with stuff like "**** no our game won't run on that piece of ****" I wouldn't say that they should go "full Microsoft" but they (Nintendo) should be aware that they're losing control of the narrative in the media and have a strategy to publicly rebut it.
If Nintendo had a strategy then we wouldn't be talking about whether the Switch [i]might[/] able to run a "custom version" Titanfall 3 (since it clearly could if the version was graphically downgraded enough) but taking it as fact that it can and making it clear that it's not coming because of commercial and marketing considerations from the publishers.
@Therad
I was using 450GFLOPS undocked, 900GFLOPS docked. I picked those numbers not from rumours, leaks or any other such source. They are using a custom chip afterall. I picked those numbers based on how the console is performing in hands on. It's performing better than the Wii U while undocked (so >350GFLOPS) and performance seems to scale well from 720p -> 1080p when docked (2x pixels).
But in the end, the specific number doesn't matter much. I was talking about how big a magnitude the gap was not how many GFLOPS specifically it is. Basically that whole list can be summarised to four points of comparison:
1. Vita was ~35x behind the PS4
2. Wii U was ~5x behind the PS4
3. Switch undocked is ~4-5x behind the PS4
4. Switch docked is ~2-4x behind the PS4
And my point was simple. 3 is a huge improvement vs 1 which was the norm before this. The change between the two is insane. 4 isn't impressive but it's about in-line with what Nintendo has been doing for a while now. It also happens to be similar to the gap between PS4/XBOne and their mid-gen revisions.
@StuTwo Gearbox said they wanted to get Boarderlands on the Switch but Ninty broke off talks with them, Respwan were the ones that called the Switch underpowered.
@StuTwo Gearbox said they wanted to get Boarderlands on the Switch but Ninty broke off talks with them, Respwan were the ones that called the Switch underpowered.
My apologies. I wasn't intending to talk in specifics - just in general terms.
Either way Nintendo, as one of the biggest companies in gaming should be controlling the narrative, not letting it be written about them. If Gearbox had said "oh Microsoft broke off talks with us" in public then you'd straight away see a tweet from Phil Spencer saying "we'd love to see your game on XBox - I'll have my guys talk to you" - even if he knew that game wasn't happening for various behind the scenes reasons he'd look like the good guy in public and he'd have control of the narrative.
Nintendo doesn't do that - I partially understand the reasons why but I think it's a mistake. Publishers like EA are sharks and if you let them be the ones who get to paint the picture of you (whether themselves or through one of their in-house developers) they'll paint an unflattering one if it suits them to.
@Therad The Foxconn rumour is pretty legit, everything we know so far was 'predicted' in the Foxconn rumour. PS4 Pro was leaked in a similar fashion, so no, I do think that we have a pretty accurate image of what's inside the Switch and what it can do.
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