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Topic: WiiU dual analog sticks or dual touch pads?

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CanisWolfred

21. Posted:

soccer686 wrote:

I like analogs more than a mouse in fps games.

I started out with the freakin' mouse and I still agree with this.

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DaveGX

22. Posted:

skywake wrote:

Well if you think that's true and also presumably as people here are saying the analogue stick is as good or better than KB/Mouse then....... why don't people use laptop touchpads for PC gaming more often? There is CLEARLY a reason why they don't even though the option is there and it's pretty damn obvious. It sucks, it sucks HARD.

I don't think you're understanding the difference between saying that touch controls are a sub-par replacement for physical controls and blaming the controls for me being a noob. It's there, it works and it works brilliantly for some things but it IS worse than physical controls when it tries to emulate physical controls. I can use them but.... if its a traditional game and I'm given the option I'd rather not.

The only reason I wouldn't use a laptop touchpad is the same reason I dislike using a mouse because when you run out of room you need to re-center it to where ever. Analogs don't have the problem of manually moving around whereas the movement recognition is constant until you're not moving them, which is where analog touchpads like the Xperia Play has and would differentiate since the touch sensors function differently than a laptop touchpad relying on manual movement. So again, my only real problem there is that I think maybe they just need to provide the right sized area/radius.

Also, to YellowChocobo saying that adapting to a particular control scheme is called practice? I can only partially (and legitimately) agree with this as I've previously explained my problem with keyboard and mouse. Honestly, mo amount of practice will ever make me better at the game by that control scheme because it's really more a matter of comfort vs inexperience. Now touchscreen controls I can understand; If your screen/zoom isn't large enough, you're more than likely to maybe click something you didn't intend to like me on rare occasion, or simply because a touchscreen,or general shape and weight of the device isn't comfortable at all. That's not legitimate reason enough to shun them as noobs.

Edited on by DaveGX

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Bankai

23. Posted:

skywake wrote:

WaltzElf wrote:

Quite simply, have a go at some iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch games that use analogue or dual analogue on the touch screen. Horrible stuff, I have no idea why people think it's usable.

How long have you played games on iPad/ iPhone, exactly?

It's called practice. Give a controller to someone who hasn't used one before, or a mouse and keyboard to a console gamer, and they'll all claim they're "not as comfortable" as input devices they are used to.

It's very easy to blame the technology, but in my experience most people who claim it's the iPad's fault they can't play ______ game properly are just noobs.

Well if you think that's true and also presumably as people here are saying the analogue stick is as good or better than KB/Mouse then....... why don't people use laptop touchpads for PC gaming more often? There is CLEARLY a reason why they don't even though the option is there and it's pretty damn obvious. It sucks, it sucks HARD.

I don't think you're understanding the difference between saying that touch controls are a sub-par replacement for physical controls and blaming the controls for me being a noob. It's there, it works and it works brilliantly for some things but it IS worse than physical controls when it tries to emulate physical controls. I can use them but.... if its a traditional game and I'm given the option I'd rather not.

Laptop touch pad experience is absolutely nothing like an iPad's touch screen. I know - I can play a FPS on the iPad. I can't on the laptop. I also can't with mouse and keyboard, for the record, because I'm a noob at PC gaming.

Which brings me back to my point - you evidently have not played games on the iPad long enough for it to be comfortable. If you had, you wouldn't say it's "sub par." End of story.

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IAmNotWill

24. Posted:

iPad + FPS = Bad combination. Modern Combat and NOVA both suck control wise.

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DaveGX

25. Posted:

YellowChocobo wrote:

skywake wrote:

WaltzElf wrote:

Quite simply, have a go at some iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch games that use analogue or dual analogue on the touch screen. Horrible stuff, I have no idea why people think it's usable.

How long have you played games on iPad/ iPhone, exactly?

It's called practice. Give a controller to someone who hasn't used one before, or a mouse and keyboard to a console gamer, and they'll all claim they're "not as comfortable" as input devices they are used to.

It's very easy to blame the technology, but in my experience most people who claim it's the iPad's fault they can't play ______ game properly are just noobs.

Well if you think that's true and also presumably as people here are saying the analogue stick is as good or better than KB/Mouse then....... why don't people use laptop touchpads for PC gaming more often? There is CLEARLY a reason why they don't even though the option is there and it's pretty damn obvious. It sucks, it sucks HARD.

I don't think you're understanding the difference between saying that touch controls are a sub-par replacement for physical controls and blaming the controls for me being a noob. It's there, it works and it works brilliantly for some things but it IS worse than physical controls when it tries to emulate physical controls. I can use them but.... if its a traditional game and I'm given the option I'd rather not.

Laptop touch pad experience is absolutely nothing like an iPad's touch screen. I know - I can play a FPS on the iPad. I can't on the laptop. I also can't with mouse and keyboard, for the record, because I'm a noob at PC gaming.

Which brings me back to my point - you evidently have not played games on the iPad long enough for it to be comfortable. If you had, you wouldn't say it's "sub par." End of story.

I still say that comfort and time/experience are 2 different issues altogether. You just said you can play an FPS on the iPad, but not on the laptop.. Yes, they're slightly different because you're not substituting a pointer needing manual controls vs a touchscreen with emulated automatic. However, as I recently pointed out I do agree that touchscreen analogs are uncomfortable on a touchscreen surface because it's too easy to run into a moment where it may not respond, (Plus sometimes tapping the thing too much just hurts your fingers and sliding just feels like a mini slip and slide) and my owning a Motorola Droid Milestone 1 I would know. Plus you really just don't get the same feel/sensation, and no amount of time/experience can change that, whether a few hours, a week to months, years even. If perhaps even the shape and weight of the device make the control scheme fee awkward, then that's really all there is to it; No amount of time is going to make it any less uncomfortable than it already is.

Edited on by DaveGX

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Bankai

26. Posted:

iPad + FPS = Bad combination. Modern Combat and NOVA both suck control wise.

Modern Combat's controls suck on the PS3 as well, it's not the touch screen.

I still say that comfort and time/experience are 2 different issues altogether. You just said you can play an FPS on the iPad, but not on the laptop.. Yes, they're slightly different because you're not substituting a pointer needing manual controls vs a touchscreen with emulated automatic. However, as I recently pointed out I do agree that touchscreen analogs are uncomfortable on a touchscreen surface because it's too easy to run into a moment where it may not respond, (Plus sometimes tapping the thing too much just hurts your fingers and sliding just feels like a mini slip and slide) and my owning a Motorola Droid Milestone 1 I would know. Plus you really just don't get the same feel/sensation, and no amount of time/experience can change that, whether a few hours, a week to months, years even. If perhaps even the shape and weight of the device make the control scheme fee awkward, then that's really all there is to it; No amount of time is going to make it any less uncomfortable than it already is.

All of what you have said is entirely subjecetive, not definitive. Once again, I have less physical trouble playing an iPad shooter than a PC shooter. I'm not about to claim my perspective is definitive either, but the fact remains that just like an old grandmother might struggle with a regular contoller, at least until they get used to it, many gamers are only struggling with the iPad or iPhone because they're used to something different - i.e, buttons. That will change over time, I guarantee it.

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CanisWolfred

27. Posted:

YellowChocobo wrote:

...but the fact remains that just like an old grandmother might struggle with a regular contoller, at least until they get used to it, many gamers are only struggling with the iPad or iPhone because they're used to something different - i.e, buttons. That will change over time, I guarantee it.

Unless people decide it's not worth putting up with, kinda like how my Grandparents were with regular controllers.

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Bankai

28. Posted:

Mickeymac wrote:

YellowChocobo wrote:

...but the fact remains that just like an old grandmother might struggle with a regular contoller, at least until they get used to it, many gamers are only struggling with the iPad or iPhone because they're used to something different - i.e, buttons. That will change over time, I guarantee it.

Unless people decide it's not worth putting up with, kinda like how my Grandparents were with regular controllers.

Well, yeah. But I was more thinking of the next generation of gamers that will be growing up with these touch screens.

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DaveGX

29. Posted:

DaveGX wrote:

YellowChocobo wrote:

skywake wrote:

WaltzElf wrote:

Quite simply, have a go at some iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch games that use analogue or dual analogue on the touch screen. Horrible stuff, I have no idea why people think it's usable.

How long have you played games on iPad/ iPhone, exactly?

It's called practice. Give a controller to someone who hasn't used one before, or a mouse and keyboard to a console gamer, and they'll all claim they're "not as comfortable" as input devices they are used to.

It's very easy to blame the technology, but in my experience most people who claim it's the iPad's fault they can't play ______ game properly are just noobs.

Well if you think that's true and also presumably as people here are saying the analogue stick is as good or better than KB/Mouse then....... why don't people use laptop touchpads for PC gaming more often? There is CLEARLY a reason why they don't even though the option is there and it's pretty damn obvious. It sucks, it sucks HARD.

I don't think you're understanding the difference between saying that touch controls are a sub-par replacement for physical controls and blaming the controls for me being a noob. It's there, it works and it works brilliantly for some things but it IS worse than physical controls when it tries to emulate physical controls. I can use them but.... if its a traditional game and I'm given the option I'd rather not.

Laptop touch pad experience is absolutely nothing like an iPad's touch screen. I know - I can play a FPS on the iPad. I can't on the laptop. I also can't with mouse and keyboard, for the record, because I'm a noob at PC gaming.

Which brings me back to my point - you evidently have not played games on the iPad long enough for it to be comfortable. If you had, you wouldn't say it's "sub par." End of story.

I still say that comfort and time/experience are 2 different issues altogether. You just said you can play an FPS on the iPad, but not on the laptop.. Yes, they're slightly different because you're not substituting a pointer needing manual controls vs a touchscreen with emulated automatic. However, as I recently pointed out I do agree that touchscreen analogs are uncomfortable on a touchscreen surface because it's too easy to run into a moment where it may not respond, (Plus sometimes tapping the thing too much just hurts your fingers and sliding just feels like a mini slip and slide) and my owning a Motorola Droid Milestone 1 I would know. Plus you really just don't get the same feel/sensation, and no amount of time/experience can change that, whether a few hours, a week to months, years even. If perhaps even the shape and weight of the device make the control scheme fee awkward, then that's really all there is to it; No amount of time is going to make it any less uncomfortable than it already is.

What on earth.....subjective?? So you're telling me the feeling of an uncomfortable device in my hands is all in my head just cause I'm not used to it? That's bull! How is the issue of comfort as I explained not definitive? It's like I told you if it feels awkward and it's been going on for long periods of time there is no "getting used to it"; It ain't gonna happen. It's like a pair of gloves; if the glove don't fit, don't wear it, it won't be comfortable. An elder person struggling with a regular controller is completely different because a good majority of those people never grew up with computers, plus when you get older lots of gears start shutting down; For instance your memory starts going whether or short or long term. Now going back to the control scheme stuff again, this takes me back to Metroid Prime: Hunters; Sure enough there semed like they had a schemes for both right or left handed, I tried to see what each left handed scheme was like, and honestly, neither 1 of em felt any less awkward than the other because A B X and Y simply don't comfortably replicate a d-pad, and using a stylus isn't any better of a substitute for aim or movement in that type of game.

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Bankai

30. Posted:

What on earth.....subjective?? So you're telling me the feeling of an uncomfortable device in my hands is all in my head just cause I'm not used to it?

Subjective: "pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual"

The only way your argument can be taken as anything but subjective is if it applies to the vast majority of people out there. Because it doesn't, because there are millions of people out there playing games happilty on iPhone/ iPad, your opinion is subjective.

To relate it - I would never go and claim that Mouse and Keyboard controls "suck," just because I suck at them. I'm just not arrogant enough.

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V8_Ninja

31. Posted:

Heck, give me two of the 3DS's slide pads any day over dual analog sticks or touch pads. In my eyes dual-analog sticks are already terrible for FPS games, but I imagine two touch-pads would be even worse because it would just be dual-analog sticks with no feedback.

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DaveGX

32. Posted:

YellowChocobo wrote:

What on earth.....subjective?? So you're telling me the feeling of an uncomfortable device in my hands is all in my head just cause I'm not used to it?

Subjective: "pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual"

The only way your argument can be taken as anything but subjective is if it applies to the vast majority of people out there. Because it doesn't, because there are millions of people out there playing games happilty on iPhone/ iPad, your opinion is subjective.

To relate it - I would never go and claim that Mouse and Keyboard controls "suck," just because I suck at them. I'm just not arrogant enough.

Ya know you skipped over the 1st definition: existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought What I've explained earlier does apply to a majority of people or else we wouldn't already have people in these forums denouncing touchscreens as as viable gaming platform. The descriptions I gave you are perfectly legit asnd definitive excuses and don't simply apply to my own personal experience alone. therefore it's not subjective.

Edited on by DaveGX

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DaveGX

33. Posted:

V8_Ninja wrote:

Heck, give me two of the 3DS's slide pads any day over dual analog sticks or touch pads. In my eyes dual-analog sticks are already terrible for FPS games, but I imagine two touch-pads would be even worse because it would just be dual-analog sticks with no feedback.

You know that the slider is the adjuster for 3D. The circle pad is what you're thiking of, which is technically an analog. Anyway, yea, dual analogs work wonders for FPS, (If you'rea PC gamer just try it out for a while, you'll see) and I wouldn't worry too much about there not being any feedback, because even my Droid has slight navigation feedback. There's no reason analog touchpads wouldn't have it because really, usually the entire control pad/device produces the feedback. I don't think it's tied to just individual buttons themselves.

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skywake

34. Posted:

YellowChocobo wrote:

Laptop touch pad experience is absolutely nothing like an iPad's touch screen. I know - I can play a FPS on the iPad. I can't on the laptop. I also can't with mouse and keyboard, for the record, because I'm a noob at PC gaming.

Which brings me back to my point - you evidently have not played games on the iPad long enough for it to be comfortable. If you had, you wouldn't say it's "sub par." End of story.

It's only not the same because they've built the software to make it not the same. With a PC FPS the mouse behaves in the same way as the laptop touchpad and the mouse is better. In the same way a virtual analogue stick on a touchscreen behaves in the same way as it's physical counterpart and it isn't better. If it was the other way around then, as I said, PC gamers would be using laptop touchpads over a mouse en mass and portable console gamers wouldn't be lamenting the omission of a second analogue stick on the 3DS and would be saying things like "it doesn't matter because the touch screen is not only enough but its better for that sort of thing".

They aren't because it isn't a better experience, it's making do with the technology you have. I can say with all sorts of certainty that if the iPad and similar DID come with an analogue stick people would start to think of it as a more serious gaming platform. As it is it doesn't have it and that's fine because it makes it lighter, more portable and so on..... and most people are happy with making do for the gaming bit.

edit: and for the record the Wii Remote pointer behaves like a very unstable PC mouse, something to think about for you dual analogue Nintendo fans

Edited on by skywake

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pikku

35. Posted:

skywake wrote:

YellowChocobo wrote:

Laptop touch pad experience is absolutely nothing like an iPad's touch screen. I know - I can play a FPS on the iPad. I can't on the laptop. I also can't with mouse and keyboard, for the record, because I'm a noob at PC gaming.

Which brings me back to my point - you evidently have not played games on the iPad long enough for it to be comfortable. If you had, you wouldn't say it's "sub par." End of story.

It's only not the same because they've built the software to make it not the same. With a PC FPS the mouse behaves in the same way as the laptop touchpad and the mouse is better. In the same way a virtual analogue stick on a touchscreen behaves in the same way as it's physical counterpart and it isn't better. If it was the other way around then, as I said, PC gamers would be using laptop touchpads over a mouse en mass and portable console gamers wouldn't be lamenting the omission of a second analogue stick on the 3DS and would be saying things like "it doesn't matter because the touch screen is not only enough but its better for that sort of thing".

They aren't because it isn't a better experience, it's making do with the technology you have. I can say with all sorts of certainty that if the iPad and similar DID come with an analogue stick people would start to think of it as a more serious gaming platform. As it is it doesn't have it and that's fine because it makes it lighter, more portable and so on..... and most people are happy with making do for the gaming bit.

edit: and for the record the Wii Remote pointer behaves like a very unstable PC mouse, something to think about for you dual analogue Nintendo fans

Sounds like Waltzy here hasn't played FPS's long enough on a laptop for them to become comfortable. :P

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skywake

36. Posted:

Totally unrelated story, I have a friend who at a LAN once said to someone "you suck so much at Counter Strike that I could beat you playing with my feet". And so he did.....

true story

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NX01Trekkie1992

37. Posted:

two points I have
First, as Skywake said earlier, people don't use the touch pad on laptops to play games, as a laptop gamer I can DEFINITELY confirm this, using a real mouse is SO much better for shooters, on SO many levels. With touchpads it's too easy to trigger an alternate command without trying, and mess up your experience.

The second point is, I also have played first person shooters on the iOS platform, Call of Duty World at War: Zombies, for the iPhone/iPod Touch. While it IS playable with practice and willpower, it's nowhere NEAR as easy to pick up and play as using dual sticks. Dual sticks all the way, nothing else, or a KB/M, since I use that on PC to play Mass Effect

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komicturtle

38. Posted:

lol I think Irken told me that some guy was playing an FPS with a laptop touch pad. I have a Macbook Pro and I rather use the mouse than a pad (as well as the laptop I had awhile ago).

I use a standard mouse to play my FPS on the computer. Even though I prefer the precision of the Wii Pointer controls, mouse is just fine and accurate as well. Difference between pointer controls and mouse is that the former engages me more :)

WiiU tablet, it'd be interesting how it handles FPS controls. I can imagine holding the controller up and pointing at the screen. I actually can't wait to use the WiiU Zapper shown. That's going to be real fun to use :D

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froslo

39. Posted:

Both. People have preferences. Depending on the game I just prefer to manually get to where I want to click rather than wait it out on a joystick. I prefer a gamepad for Assassin's Creed and a m/kb for Elder Scrolls. If you guys always have to reposition the mouse then change the sensitivity. I used to think the m/kb was the most superior for pointing at stuff, until I met another PC gamer who understands why I might think that way, but actually liked controlling FPS games with dual joysticks whenever a PC games let him use his X360 controller. It's no different than me having to change actions of buttons on my keyboard. I also thought the wiimote & nunchuk was the best both worlds having a mouse equivalent and joystick, but the wiimote was pretty slow on my HDTV and it didn't respond so well in Okami. I don't know how well the motionplus or ps move feels though.

I never played FPS, RTS, etc or any games people considered better with kb/m on the Iphone/Ipad, but you guys make it seem like the control sucks more than the DS. Maybe its because you're letting the thumbs do all the work with no buttons for other fingers to press while moving/shooting. If done correctly FPS games should do pretty well on a touchscreen with buttons. Also regardless of whether you play PC games or not most of you are using a mouse to control the arrow right now. I doubt any of you are struggling to get the mouse to click on "Post reply" or anything else on your computer. If I tell you to click on an ad you'll do it in an instant. I have a hard time thinking any of you guys can't do the same in a game. I can understand not being used to the keyboard since its mostly used for typing if you don't play games, but WASD has always been WASD for years. The Q, E, R, F, and any button close to WASD may change in function or you could make your controls.

A lot of these problems can be fixed if consoles had the ability to use m/kb, because then you would have more options. With the Wii U you could have this:
Dual Touch
Dual Joysticks
Wiimote & Nunchuk
Mouse & Keyboard
OR any combination of the four.

Edited on by froslo

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shingi_70

40. Posted:

Sig68 wrote:

Both. People have preferences. Depending on the game I just prefer to manually get to where I want to click rather than wait it out on a joystick. I prefer a gamepad for Assassin's Creed and a m/kb for Elder Scrolls. If you guys always have to reposition the mouse then change the sensitivity. I used to think the m/kb was the most superior for pointing at stuff, until I met another PC gamer who understands why I might think that way, but actually liked controlling FPS games with dual joysticks whenever a PC games let him use his X360 controller. It's no different than me having to change actions of buttons on my keyboard.

I never played FPS, RTS, etc or any games people considered better with kb/m on the Iphone/Ipad, but you guys make it seem like the control sucks more than the DS. Maybe its because you're letting the thumbs do all the work with no buttons for other fingers to press while moving/shooting. If done correctly FPS games should do pretty well on a touchscreen with buttons. Also regardless of whether you play PC games or not most of you are using a mouse to control the arrow right now. I doubt any of you are struggling to get the mouse to click on "Post reply" or anything else on your computer. If I tell you to click on an ad you'll do it in an instant. I have a hard time thinking any of you guys can't do the same in a game. I can understand not being used to the keyboard since its mostly used for typing if you don't play games, but WASD has always been WASD for years. The Q, E, R, F, and any button close to WASD may change in function or you could make your controls.

A lot of these problems can be fixed if consoles had the ability to use m/kb, because then you would have more options. With the Wii U you could have this:
Dual Touch
Dual Joysticks
Wiimote & Nunchuk
Mouse & Keyboard
OR any combination of the four.

You wouldn't have dual touch with the wii u. Currently it uses a resistive screen so unless nintendo changes it it can't be used.

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