Topic: What the heck happened to Mario?

Is it me, or are we getting far less Mario platforming than we used to? In 2011 we see Super Mario 3D Land. In 2012 they renewed the Super Mario Bros. series twice! All those games after a period from 2009 with Galaxy 2. Then in 2013 the Super Mario series gets 3D World. So since 2013’s 3D World (I don’t count Mario Maker as a regular Mario platformer) we’ve only gotten a refresh of the Super Mario line with Odyssey? In 6 years (assuming no fresh Mario platformer title this year) doesn’t that seem like fans of regular Mario platforming are being severely underserved? It’s like a repeat of the sparse years between N64 and Wii, which I never thought would happen again.

I think people actually thought that Mario was oversaturated back in the Wii U/3DS days and was something Nintendo overrelied on. So it lessened a lot of impact Mario games make, I bet.

Yeah it has been a bit quiet. I hope they're working on a new 2D game AND a new 3D game. They sell so well that it would be silly if they're not.

Look at the timeline of releases as having been three fairly distinct decades. Between the release of the NES and N64 we got we got 6 games over that 10 year period. Then there's the space before New SMB, 4 games over 10 years. Then the New SMB era, 10 games in 10 years.

How does the more recent period compare? Well we're just under half way through this next ten year period and we already have four games. Now you could argue that two of these "don't count" because they're "ports and mobile releases". I'd argue that even with that considered we're still above par considering:

1985-1989: SMB, SMB2, SMB 3, SM Land
1995-1999: SM 64, SMB Deluxe
2005-2009: New SMB, SM Galaxy, New SMB Wii
2015-2019: SM Maker, SM Run, SM Odyssey, New SMB U Deluxe

@NinChocolate
LOL
Making Mario games is not easy as making Instant Ramen Noodles.
Nintendo needs more time to develop different Mario games.

@skywake Between 2009 and 2013 the SMB series and the SM series, Mario’s core and premiere game series, we saw 5 games in that 4 year span. 4 of of those games likely staring development at, or soon after the release of Galaxy 2.

In 2013 after the launch of 3D World, how many games in those series (the only series I’m discussing here, so Mario Maker, mobile releases I’m not concerned with) were in development? Time would have to point out just one: Odyssey. The only game to appear after 4 years since the last of those series’ efforts, and now 5+ years.

I guess development took a break and Mario Maker, Mario Run and NSMBU Deluxe took the place of games that would renew the SMB and SM series. But to me that’s a real drop off from what we enjoyed previously: 5 core titles in 4 years, now down to 1 core title after the next 4-5 years.

I think they might be trying to come up with something new for the 2D games.

The NSMB titles were all pretty similar, which is probably why they could keep a high output.

I personally don't feel like we need more NSMB games. I'd much rather they took their time and came up with something more interesting, both from a visual and gameplay standpoint.

I also think we will get a Super Mario Odyssey 2, or something similar, on Switch in the future.

You're only able to make this statement by being super selective in what counts as "core" and being super selective in the range of years you're comparing. Also I think it's a bit rich to be counting New Super Luigi U but not Mario Maker.

In any case when people say stuff that's misleading in this kind of way I like to make graphs. So here's a graph showing the 5 year moving average of Mario releases. I've also split this into 5 separate categories stacked ontop of each other. For reference:

Port: You know what this is
Non-Traditional: Specifically SMB 2, Mario Maker & Mario Run
Same Platform: Specifically Galaxy 2, Lost Levels & Luigi U
New Platform Sequel: Every New SMB other than the DS release also 3D World
Brand New Release: Everything else

Yes, clearly there was a peak around 2011 in terms of volume but even this is misleading. Of those 7 titles released in the five year period from 2009 to 2013 4 were New SMB titles remembering the first New SMB was in 2006. Also Galaxy 2 as fantastic as it was is a sequel. The only original original release was 3D Land and even that got kind of a sequel in this period in 3D World.

In any case I wouldn't call this a slowdown, more of a correction. We're still in a better position than we were before the first New SMB in terms of non-port volume. We're still well above the volume of releases in total that we had in the early 90s. Ontop of that we recently got a brand new "core" Mario title, depending on how you define it I'd argue it's the first one of those since either 3D Land or Super Mario Galaxy.

I agree with this point. Better we only get a new Mario title ever now and then, rather than get one after another with very little change.

@skywake great graph. I think perhaps what you call super selective, I see as distinct series with a separate, standalone continuity, those being: ‘Super Mario’ (64, Sunshine, Galaxy 1-2, 3D Land, 3D World), and then the sidescrolling ‘Super Mario Bros’ (SMB 1-3, SMWorld (still a ‘bros.’ Game with 2 players), NewSMB 1-2, Wii, U+).

It sounds like you count Mario Maker among the core series. For me that game does not get the same distinction but I’m not saying I’m absolutely correct because obviously Nintendo was delivering the title to the fans of the SMB series and it contained original content. But it lacked the narrative driven gameplay and the typical scope that results from that (by the series’ standards, narrow they may be).

It’s possible I’m in the minority with such a compartmented definition of Mario games, but where I’m not in the minority is in expectation. I believe when most people express desire for a new Mario game, it’s either in line with sidescrolling series or the 3D directional series. Also that it’s on a Nintendo console, and for many, a narrative driven gameplay type game, not a creator content title.

Mario has a broad franchise, but the expectation of a “new Mario game”, I believe, is definite and would dictate that Odyssey is the only such “new Mario game” since 3D World.

As for “correcting” the release schedule, I don’t know... with a release of NSMBU in 2012 and 2019 with nothing in between, that doesn’t feel like so much of a correction. More of a lull for the series.

For clarification, I’m not expressly demanding a new Mario game. But I think there’s now a bust after the boom times of the Wii/DS era and it should be pointed out or debated depending on your Mario world view

I don't think there's anyway you can honestly slice it where New Super Luigi U counts as a stand alone "Mario Game" but Mario Maker, Mario Run and New SMB U Deluxe do not. That was my main point. And I think you're missing my other point by talking about "series" rather than what's actually new.

My point of separating the games into "categories" was to distinguish genuinely new releases from stuff that's not so new. New Super Mario Bros on DS when it came out was a genuinely new release. New Super Mario Bros U was the 4th Mario game in the same style. New Super Luigi U was basically the "lost levels" version of that same game. New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe is a port of both of those titles. Surely those 4 releases have varying degrees of "newness". Whether they are in the same series or not is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making.

Anyways, whatever way you slice it I think it's pretty hard to argue that there's been a massive drop off. We're still nowhere near the point we were in that space between N64 and Wii as you put it. I'd argue the last peak for Mario was in the mid to late 2000s when we got New SMB, Galaxy, New SMB Wii, Galaxy 2 and 3D Land within about a 5 year period. The bit after, the peak you are talking about, I feel that was the low point in terms of genuine "new" content.

So in that context I'd argue we're not at another low point. IMO Mario Maker and Odyssey represent the start of the next peak for the series.

Mario got fat and can't do as much jumping as he used to.

@skywake the article in this link falls in line with my view of a “core” game in the Super Mario series:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/fea...

The author does not list any Mario title between 3D World in 2013 and Odyssey in 2017 as a “core” or proper entry. Perhaps some have different take on the core series and I’m not sure what to say about that. I simply feel the core Mario titles have slowed significantly taking the decade of 2009-2019 into account.

“Surely those 4 releases have varying degrees of "newness"”

I’m not sure I follow the degrees of newness idea. NSMB had 4 brand new games. One got an expansion (Luigi U) - just like NSMB2 got it’s add-on content - as well as a rerelease. The ‘Deluxe’ rerelease is a new product but not a new game in the series or core roster. And that’s probably where our thinking diverges the most: I’m not tallying every new product (or SKU if you prefer), just titles bearing the core Super Mario experience.

I feel for the sake of preserving the ambition in the mold of a traditional Super Mario videogame, a list of games that define the series should be discriminating and thus exclusionary (of games like single input Mario Run or creation apps like Mario Maker, which you may feel provide a valuable evolution, but I’d argue there’s enough of a differentiation there).

@NinChocolate
The article linked has New SMB U as the best Mario game so I wouldn't read into it too much. Has about as much value as anything anyone here is saying. Anyways, NEW is NEW. It's not a hard concept.

I think Nintendo realized how oversaturated Mario platformers were getting and how similar of experiences they are. They've all sold very well, but I think even the development teams were feeling burnout. I think the next 2D Mario will try some new things. How confusing would it be to have New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe and New Super Mario Bros. Switch on the same console? I think the New Super Mario Bros. line of games are just about laid to rest now, which is how it should be.

I'm not opposed to a direct Super Mario Odyssey sequel, but it needs to add quite a bit of new features. How about 2 players? Mario and Luigi running and jumping through environments would be great. Plus, add Yoshi. Build on what was done in Super Mario Galaxy 2 with Yoshi and improve it. For extra fun, no Bowser in the sequel. Probably even no Peach. Take some more chances with the characters and settings.

Something else to note, Mario games per console.

NES: 3
Famicom: 3
SNES: 1 + 1 port
GB: 2 + 1 port
N64: 1
GBA: 3 ports
GC: 1
DS: 1
Wii: 3
3DS: 2 + 1 port (including Mario Maker)
Wii U: 3 (including Mario Maker)
Switch: 1 + 1 port... so far

I’d take any new mario. Love playing mario games. I don’t expect them to reinvent the wheel every time either.

I don’t buy games I’ve already played in general, so the ports don’t count for me.

Playing NSMBUD felt like a "fresh" experience because it was so forgettable the first time that I had played the original games (I was surprised by how few of the stages I had actually remembered). I also completed the game (plus coins/secrets) it in a little over a week, so now I really wish that they had included the Wii game as well.

I think the setup for Switch will be:
2D - NSMBU Deluxe (confirmed January 2019), Super Mario Maker 2 (prediction September 2020)
3D - Super Mario Odyssey (confirmed October 2017), Super Mario 3D World (prediction late 2019/early 2020), Super Mario Odyssey 2 (prediction late 2021)