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Topic: Let's address the elephant in the room.

Posts 41 to 60 of 107

Snaplocket

@MsJubilee Turns out I got the number wrong. I thought it was 6 million because the source that stated it was a sales flop (huge stretch I know) said it was a total of 6 months worth of sales. 3.5 million is the correct number. (and still a very high amount)

Snaplocket

SKTTR

@Beedrill4Smash

How many Koei Tecmo games for Switch?

The ones I know are:

1. Atelier Lydie & Suelle: The Alchemists and the Mysterious Paintings
2. Attack on Titan 2
3. Champion Jockey Special
4. Dynasty Warriors 8: Empires
5. Fire Emblem Warriors
6. Nights of Azure 2: Bride of the New Moon
7. Nobunaga's Ambition: Sphere of Influence Ascension
8. Nobunaga's Ambition: Aspiration
9. No Night Country 2
10. Romance of the Three Kingdoms XIII
11. Samurai Warriors: Spirit of Sanada
12. Warriors Orochi
13. Winning Post 8 2017

Edited on by SKTTR

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Beedrill4Smash

@SKTTR 13 wow, and I wouldn't be too surprised if they weren't done. I am ecstatic that AOT 2 is coming to the Switch. Like I said I don't think KT will ever let this system go.

Beedrill4Smash

Qwertyninty

Good discussion guys. I hope these games do well. I just have reservations about how well they can do depending on what the publishers expectations are.

Qwertyninty

skywake

@Octane
Well it's kinda hard for the Wii U to have a lot of big selling third party games when there weren't many on the system. And of course Nintendo's first party games sell well, they're exclusives. Neither of which go to the point I was making. Because the third party games that did get an even chance on the Wii U sold relatively well considering the low install base.

Games like Bayonetta, Resident Evil Revelations, Sonic & All Stars Racing, Rayman Legends and even games like FIFA, Batman, CoD. Did these games break sales records on the Wii U? No. But relative to the install base the sales of those games wasn't unexpectedly low. Even with CoD it sold 1/20th of the units that sold on 360/PS3 but that was with ~1/25th of the install base.

Was it the type of users of the volume? And was it brand loyalty to Nintendo or a lack of other options? I think it's far more likely to be the latter on both. That's the elephant in the room here, not some kind of "Nintendo fan culture". If the Switch continues to sell well we will see a different story unfold.

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, The Avalanches
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Beedrill4Smash

The developers expectations huh? Thats something I hadn't considered. You have things like Bamco who was surprised how well DBZ did so well, and you have companies like Squenix who find 3.4/3.6 million sales of Tomb Raider/Hitman is disappointing (I know different company, game, and console, but still). I hope Bethesda doesn't have ludicrous expectations like 3.5 mill sales.

Edited on by Beedrill4Smash

Beedrill4Smash

MsJubilee

@Snaplocket For some reason to Capcom 3.5 million copies sold is a flop. Guess they're like the rest of these publishers,wanting their game making GTA numbers.

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This is the will of the heavens.

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kkslider5552000

SKTTR wrote:

How many Koei Tecmo games for Switch?

The ones I know are:

1. Atelier Lydie & Suelle: The Alchemists and the Mysterious Paintings
2. Attack on Titan 2
3. Champion Jockey Special
4. Dynasty Warriors 8: Empires
5. Fire Emblem Warriors
6. Nights of Azure 2: Bride of the New Moon
7. Nobunaga's Ambition: Sphere of Influence Ascension
8. Nobunaga's Ambition: Aspiration
9. No Night Country 2
10. Romance of the Three Kingdoms XIII
11. Samurai Warriors: Spirit of Sanada
12. Warriors Orochi
13. Winning Post 8 2017

This seems like a bit much. I realize Hyrule Warriors was a big hit (by Warriors standards, not Zelda) but THIRTEEN games? I mean...I guess they're gonna see what sticks.

Though I'm sad as I'm pretty sure this is way more games coming out than Capcom or Sega will release at all anywhere in an equivalent time.

Bioshock is 10 years old. Let's play through its horrific environment and see why its so beloved!
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electrolite77

"PS4: 62mill consoles, 405mill games -> ~6.5 games/console
XBOne: 30mill consoles, 197mill games -> ~6.5 games/console
Wii U: 14mill consoles, 90 mill games -> ~6.5 games/console

Wii U owners were not buying an unusually low number of games. Fact."

That's meaningless. That includes sales of first-party games. They bought a low number of third-party games.

Look at games released late 2013. At the end of 2013 the Wii U install base was 5.91 million. PS3 install base was 80 million as of mid-November 2013.

COD Ghosts sold 0.35 million on Wii U. It sold 9.38 million on PS3. Assassin's Creed Black Flag and Batman Arkham Origins have similar ratios of username to sales. Nothing (including Splinter Cell and Injustice) has a better ratio on Wii u. But still, well done Wii U you think? No, the issue is that PS3 owners had masses more choice (GTA V, Bioshock Infinite, Battlefield 4 and Tomb Raider for example) whereas Wii U owners with very little third-party software still bought those games in tiny amounts. They bought first-party games instead, as evidenced by the best sellers list on the system.

Good third-party games like Black Ops 2 (0.42 million), Deus Ex (0.11 million), Need for Speed (0.27 million) and even ZombiU (1.02 million) were hugely outsold by Wii Party U (1.78 million). Even rubbish like Game and Wario got to a comparable 0.24 million.

Switch friend code - SW-5907-7972-1196

skywake

@electrolite77
You're talking in circles and ignoring the point. I never said that Wii U owners didn't buy first party games. All I said was that on average Wii U owners brought a similar number of games as the other platforms. And that third party games that did launch on Wii U actually had a similar attach rate to competing platforms.

Pointing out that Deus Ex sold poorly on Wii U relative to Wii Party or that CoD Ghosts sold ~25x more units on PS3 is just cherry picking data. It's not a counter argument. You could just as easily point to the raw sales numbers of Kinect Adventures vs Bayonetta on 360 or how many more copies of Rayman Legends were sold on the PS4 vs the Vita. It doesn't tell you anything about what kinds of games people who own those platforms will buy. It's picking out a bit of noise and ignoring the bigger picture.

Edited on by skywake

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, The Avalanches
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Octane

@skywake I wouldn't say it's a Nintendo fan culture, but I think there's some merit to it. You can also argue that people who are interested in multi-platform games probably own a PlayStation or Xbox too, and are more likely to buy the games on those systems (pre-portable Switch era for the sake of the argument). So in turn, the Wii U was more of a first party machine than anything else. For the same reason that some buy a PlayStation or Xbox just for third party games.

I also think that comparing numbers 1-to-1 isn't entirely fair. I haven't calculated it, but it seems to me that systems with a low userbase have less trouble achieving high attach rates than successful systems. Mario Kart 8 has an attach rate of more than 50% on the Wii U. Ignoring the bundled Wii Sports on the Wii, no other game comes close on recent platforms, and I don't expect any game to sell 30+ million copies on the PS4 anytime soon. As the user-base becomes bigger, preferences also vary more widely, making it harder to sell to a fixed percentage of people.

And like you said yourself, there weren't a whole lot of third party games on the Wii U. Had the offering been on par with the other consoles, would they still have sold the same (assuming the userbase stayed the same)? Probably worse, if there was more competition.

Octane

electrolite77

@skywake

I'm right on point. Your point that "This idea that somehow Wii U owners didn't want third party games is nonsense. They definitely did and they did buy them"

And your statement that "relative to the install base the sales of those games wasn't unexpectedly low. Even with CoD it sold 1/20th of the units that sold on 360/PS3 but that was with ~1/25th of the install base." This is inaccurate.

You can stick your head in the sand about the numbers if you want but they tell the story. I found examples of games on Wii U and other systems and Wii U sales are not good in comparison despite the paucity of options on the system. The numbers tell the same story told by Spacestation Silicon Valley, Rocket, Billy Hatcher, Okami, Zack and Wiki, Red Steel 2, COD on Wii, and all the other good third-party games that tanked on Nintendo systems. It's been a long running issue and there's no point living in denial about it.

Switch friend code - SW-5907-7972-1196

MFD

@Octane Do you think that the Switch has caught the attention of people more willing to buy third-party games? Or is it simply a case of a lot of people to own one now, wanting third-parties, doesn't matter if they tended to go with Nintendo first-party games primarily before?

@electrolite77 How do you see the third-party situation, about 1-2 years from now, given that Switch continues to do how it does?

Edited on by MFD

MFD

skywake

@Octane
It's a chicken and egg sort of scenario. The Wii U wasn't the system to buy for multiplatform games because third parties were not porting their games. They weren't porting games because people weren't buying the console. In terms of attach rates on poorer selling consoles? Looking at the best selling games across a handful of systems ~30% attach rate is fairly typical for the best selling game across the board. Mario Kart 8 hit 50% but how much of that was because it was part of a bundle?

When push comes to shove? Attach rates for third party games on Wii U were not that bad. If anything there were a few games that performed surprisingly well given the low install base. If there is a lesson to be learned for the Switch from how third party games performed on the Wii U? It's not about the type of consumers Nintendo fans are. The lesson is to sell a lot of consoles early on and the third party "problem" will solve itself.

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, The Avalanches
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

skywake

electrolite77 wrote:

And your statement that "relative to the install base the sales of those games wasn't unexpectedly low. Even with CoD it sold 1/20th of the units that sold on 360/PS3 but that was with ~1/25th of the install base." This is inaccurate.

Call of Duty Black Ops 2
PS3: 13.8 mill / 76mill consoles -> 18%
360: 13.8mill / 78mill consoles -> 17%
Wii U: 0.4mill / 3mill consoles -> 13%

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, The Avalanches
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Octane

@UmniKnight We shall see. I have no idea. Sure, there's interest if I have to believe the people on this forum, but we're just a minority. Do people care enough about portability that they're willing to buy a portable version of FIFA over the home console/PC versions? Maybe? It's difficult to say right now, but the coming weeks are going to be interesting now that we're seeing the first big third parties appear on the Switch.

@skywake Well, I agree with the things you say in general. And I agree that sales weren't that bad on the Wii U all things considered. And yes, I also realise that it's been how many years since third party games appeared with full parity on Nintendo consoles? But at the same time I can't imagine a time when a third party game outsells a Nintendo game on a Nintendo system. Oh well, as long as the userbase is there, the Switch will be fine I think.

Octane

skywake

@Octane
To be fair if Sony or Microsoft had the strength of IP that Nintendo does we'd be saying the same about them. There hasn't really been any first party publisher with anywhere near the strength of IP as Nintendo since Sega. And with Sega's consoles the same was true as it was and continues to be with Nintendo. First party published games dominate the best selling games on their platforms

Some good Aussie musics: King Gizzard, Pond, The Avalanches
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

countzero

JaxonH wrote:

@KryptoKrunch
Not to play devils advocate, but Bayonetta 2 was

1 the most hyped 3rd party game on the Wii U all generation
2 100% exclusive and funded by Nintendo
3 had Nintendo exclusive content, including Star Fox segments and costumes
4 was GotY quality, the highest rated game all year and definitely on Wii U
5 came with the original Bayonetta game, completely free on separate disc

Bayonetta 1 wasn't free worldwide. I remember paying 10-20 € extra for the Version with both games.

And even then, it had to scrape the bottom of the barrel just to barely pass the 1 million threshold. Wii U gamers did NOT like buying 3rd party games. At all.

I think Bayonetta isn't a good example for a typical third party game. It just doesn't have much mass market appeal. The first game sold 1.3 million copies on Xbox360 and PS3 combined.
So in conparison, selling 1 million on WiiU alone is pretty good.

countzero

MFD

@Octane Which would you really mark as "big" third-party games? Fifa sure, but what else?

MFD

Octane

@skywake I know several people who own a PS4 or Xbox and only play FIFA, and maybe COD, Overwatch and Rocket League. I wouldn't say Sony's and Microsoft's IPs aren't that strong, some just want to play FIFA or COD and just buy the cheapest console they can find on the market. Those people aren't on Nintendo systems, because most multi-platform games don't come/didn't come to Nintendo systems in the first place. So sales are naturally a bit more biased towards first party on Nintendo systems.

Octane

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