@NEStalgia It's nice to keep track of things on a system wide level. I like going to my trophies list on the Vita, for example, and seeing what games I can clean up trophies for. And, yes, there is a satisfaction in seeing a long line of platinum trophies or "100% collected" next to my various games. It's a gamification of customer loyalty and engagement with the games on a given system.
@NEStalgia
The difference is having one consolidated database of accomplishments and progress, easily viewed by yourself or others on the spot (without the need for finding said game, loading it, and looking for achievements, and that's for the games that actually include them). The gamerscore is a nice, bottom line value which represents your dedication to playing games on a given platform, but far more important than that is the individual trophies. I like seeing how many bronze, silver, gold and platinums I have. And as the years pass, they continue to pile up. I only wish Nintendo had this kind of system, because I put in far more time with their platforms than anyone else.
@Ralizah
I just don't understand their reluctance. It's not that hard to implement, and all ports have achievements built in from the other platforms so, it's not like 3rd parties wouldn't be on board.
All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Wages of sin is death. Romans
God so loved the world He sent His only Son- whoever believes on Him has eternal life. Unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Whoever believes, rivers of living water flow within them. John
@JaxonH Perhaps some of the higher ups at Nintendo also fail to see the appeal of trophy systems? Nintendo is always slow on the uptake of modern trends that don't originate with them, but at this point, I can only imagine the reason we don't yet have one is because they're actively opposed to the idea.
@Ralizah@JaxonH I don't know, maybe it's because I started gaming with the NES (really the 2600...) and these newfangled things are simply confusing, but I just don't get it. Even when explained by you guys the whole mentality behind it seems incomprehensible. Checking a central database to see your "progress" in a game, that has little to do with your progress in a game.... Making it to the end of the story is progress. Rising up the ranking ladder is progress. Playing without getting killed (much) is progress. Finding hidden levels/locations/items/dialogues is progress. "Visit all 20 stores 3 times each" or "use 100 healing items" isn't progress. "Beat the 10th boss with a green shovel" isn't progress. A fun in-game challenge maybe to extend it. But nothing that makes sense to be part of a "percentage of completion" in a central database and crystallized into a number.
I'm not really against trophies.....but I still can't even start comprehending the passionate obsession for them. I'm not against them being present, but I've never understood how people actually DO want them present let along so strongly. Seems like a loyal niche among certain obsessive personality types. Only part I don't get there is I'm OCD enough so that group SHOULD include me, but doesn't. I can't stand having empty slots in my game cases. But by "trophy" standards I'm probably 8%-35% done every game I've ever played. When I look at some of the ridiculous trophy objectives it's either some absurd thing like "talk to character X at least 1000 times" or on the other end of the spectrum "Trophy: Died by falling off a cliff". Mixed in are some actual challenges of ridiculously difficult feats. I'm never interested in "bonus difficult content' but I can at least see that being a trophy for those that do it. But seems to make up the vast minority of trophies.
On another level though, isn't a system level trophy system that gives arbitrary tasks in spreadsheet form kind of a game design failure to begin with? Shouldn't the game itself be providing the challenges and rewards in entertaining in-game ways that reward you with in-game mechanics and items rather than bolting after the fact trigger events into the game as tied to a checklist driven by a system menu? It does feel like a cheap end-run around actual game design.
See, I use the achievement/trophy system to get a little insight in to my friends' gaming habits. I quite like the 'activity log' on Nintendo systems as a quick reference to see what my friends are playing, what games we have in common and how regularly we play each game - but the PSN/XBL systems have a bit more depth too them, so you can get quite a lot more insight in to someones gaming habits...if, for example, you see that your friend hasn't done something that you thought was really fun - you can suggest playing it with them to give them what would be a fresh, fun experience that they'd previously neglected. It's not all about the bragging...especially for me - I played over 1000 hours of GTAV without ever getting the Platinum, wasn't motivated in the slightest to try to get it - but I still liked the extra insight that the trophy collections could give you in to someones habits
@NEStalgia I'm with you. I completely understand the desire to have these added goals to try to add length or enjoyment to a game, but almost every game I have played recently on my Nintendo systems has these built into the game. I have no need for it to be on the system, too. Especially when they are the same. When I looked at my PS3 trophies for the first time last night, I noticed that the ones for the Sonic Genesis Collection are all exactly the same as the ones in-game. What is the point of having them in both places? If I want to see them, it is much easier to look at them in the game I am already playing then to jump through multiple out-of-the-way menus (maybe PS4 and Xbox One are more intuitive, but PS3 took a minute to get there).
On another level though, isn't a system level trophy system that gives arbitrary tasks in spreadsheet form kind of a game design failure to begin with? Shouldn't the game itself be providing the challenges and rewards in entertaining in-game ways that reward you with in-game mechanics and items rather than bolting after the fact trigger events into the game as tied to a checklist driven by a system menu? It does feel like a cheap end-run around actual game design.
No? I mean, a bad game is a bad game, and the best trophy list in the world isn't going to make it enjoyable. It's not a substitute for proper organic game design. It's a metagame that encourages a person to buy and play as many games as possible on that system, and that also allows players to keep track of their accomplishments across a wide variety of games.
Granted, there are a few side-effects of system wide trophy systems that I dislike. There are some games that are terrible and allow easy access to their platinum trophy on PSN, for example, and the developer exploits "trophy hunting" culture to make his or her sales on something that would otherwise sell almost nothing on a system without a trophy system. Things like that do exist. But they're not the norm and, more importantly, they're not leading to some standardized decay of the game design in PS4 games.
I'm not super crazy about trophy systems (obviously, given the fact that I'm in love with the Switch and plan to stop buying games on other systems that I don't play as much due to them not being as versatile), but they can be fun, and I usually like collecting the trophies for games I enjoy, as it gives me a goal-oriented excuse to spend more time with them. And I say this as another gamer who started on the NES.
@Lethal But what is the difference between collecting trophies/achievements/etc. in a game where a developer chooses to implement them in whatever manner they chose
Difference is having a way to easily see how many trophies you have collected. It is part of the hobby and I like many others, like to be able to track my efforts as a whole.
I can log on to Xbox or Playstation website and see exactly how many trophies I have. I can see individual games with a progression bar telling me how many more I need to get 100%. Stats are everything when it comes to collecting trophies/achievements. It is not for everybody, but for those who enjoy it, this is essential.
And no, OS-level achievements wouldn't automatically double sales. You're one of the special few that buys games you don't even like just to collect trophies from it.
You could not be more wrong lol....
If Street Fighter had trophies on the Switch, I would have paid for that overly priced game the day it released. So would thousands of others. Just a simple example.
@NEStalgia
But it is progress. It's not all "bang 10 enemies with your shovel". It's "defeat this boss" and "master this technique" or "found all shrines".
That's progress. Even if it is "bang 10 enemies with a shovel", when there's 100 different trophies like that, it's cool to see them stack up.
It's not some foreign concept- it's right on the main menu, you click and bam, list of trophies, sorted by game, with a grand total. Obviously it's something people like or we wouldn't be talking about it now.
It's not something that substitites bad game design, that's nonsense. It's something that can make a good game that much more enjoyable. And not just the game, but the experience on the system in general.
Very rarely do I see PS owners actively dislike the trophy system. Almost everyone likes it, some more than others... but there's a reason for that. Smash achievements were worthless. Fire Emblem Echoes achievements were worthless. Every achievement in game from Nintendo has been worthless. An utter waste of achievements. If you can't view them on a system level, and have other people view them on a system level, and have it standardized for every game, there's no point. When I get an achievement in Fire Emblem, I'm always like yup, don't care in the slightyou, Cause it's never gonna be seen again, it's forgotten as soon as I'm done playing.
A real trophy system permanently records your adventures. And I love that. I love seeing 549 trophies on my PS4 and Vita. I love seeing a list of over 250 games in the trophy list. Some of them I have 0 trophies but they still get added into the list as soon as you play the first time, so the past 5 years of PS gaming has been permanently recorded. I want that for Nintendo.
I want to see my 600 hrs in Xenoblade X recordes, with all the skells I obtained and all the enemies I killed, and acknowledgement for beating the game, I want to reflect on the 100 hrs I put into every Fire Emblem game to date, I want to see how many monsters I hunted and trapped in MH3U and MH4U and MH Generations, and the 1500 hrs combined with countless exploits and adventures, like cutting off a Rathian's tail mid air (what a crowning achievement that would have been!).
But no. All my adventures and exploits are forever lost to the black hole of Nintendo gaming history
All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Wages of sin is death. Romans
God so loved the world He sent His only Son- whoever believes on Him has eternal life. Unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Whoever believes, rivers of living water flow within them. John
It would be nice to have some kind of achievement system on the switch. I almost expect the trophy sound every time I activate a new Sheika tower in BotW.
@Lethal@JaxonH What's interesting about this, is it must be some kind of reflection on personality types that some sociologist or geneticist could categorize us into. To me everything you describe is almost incomprehensible that anyone could find any value in that of any sort whatsoever. Yet to you and the folks that like it the inverse is true. It's got to be a fundamental brain wiring difference. I'd love to expand that and see what other traits it ties to somehow. Who know video game achievements could unlock a whole field of genetics?
The idea that the purpose of playing the game is to build a percentage bar that you can track along a checklist? That you'd buy the game for the primary purpose of adding to your percentage bar and checking off a bunch of items on a list? That sounds like genuine OCD madness. I joke about OCD because I can certainly have impulses in that direction, but that just sounds like real OCD.
@JaxonH It just seems like stacking up random tasks not related to the core gameplay fulfills some kind of compulsive need to tick off checkboxes and monitor statistics. To say that having the same exact achievements in game are worthless unless you can view them in a statistics measuring utility and allow others to do so means that the act of performing the tasks that earn trophies actually are worthless to you. You don't like DOING these things, you just like looking at statistics of them! If DOING the things that the trophies represent were the fun part, thats one thing. If the fun part is looking at a list that says you did a bunch of things that wouldn't have been worthwhile had there not been a list that says you did it...well nobody can tell you not to have fun with that, but that's still not sounding great.
As for logging games you played without trophies, doesn't My Nintendo do that? I know the Switch itself does, and so did 3DS and WiiU.
I don't know, I played hundreds if not thousands of hours of NES games, and I certainly don't need a notebook (back in my day.... ) to remind me of everything I did in those games, I can remember them and look at the stack of games. I could still play them again if I wanted to. I've played tons of PC games and such before achievements were a thing. I don't need a metrics tracking system to think of the enjoyment they offered. That's like the world according to Facebook and Google....and it's horrifying to think people are actually starting to think of metrics and analytics as entertainment that can even supersede actual creative entertainment!
Again, to be clear, I'm not arguing AGAINST achievements, I'm not trying to take them away from anyone that likes them. But I just can't for the life of me understand the appeal, and the explanations actually make it sound worse than I thought before! I thought it was at least just kind of obnoxious braggarts who love showing how awesome they are at every chance. But this sounds...worse than that...
@NEStalgia
Some of The acts are worthless. Most usually. Some are meaningful. The point isn't what achievements there are, it's the fact your playtime is being documented forever through various developer included accomplishments.
Same reason people like to keep save data for games they already beat and will never replay, or if they do replay they'll start from scratch. It's the fact your progress isn't lost forever. It's recorded in the history books.
Don't care about going out of my way for trophies- in fact I never check to see what they are. I just play, and if I something to unlock a trophy, awesome.
Has nothing to do with wired brains. Just has to do with most people don't realize how cool it is til they experience it for a time. I never once thought "oh ya know I'd really love to have accomplishments recorded". But once I experienced it I realized how awesome it was.
And I used to say the exact same thing you're saying bow. It was easy to convince myself trophies were worthless when I didn't have a vested interest. Then I played PS consoles for 5 years and realized I always loved trophies, I just didn't know it.
And I guarantee you when the day comes Nintendo adds a trophy system, most people saying how it adds nothing will be saying how much they love having it.
But it has to be done right. Xbox achievements are garbage. Straight worthless. Because it assigns points and it's confusing and hard to access. PS trophies are perfect though. I don't even care about achievements anywhere but PS, cause they're the only ones that do it right
All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Wages of sin is death. Romans
God so loved the world He sent His only Son- whoever believes on Him has eternal life. Unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Whoever believes, rivers of living water flow within them. John
@JaxonH I totally agree with you on all fronts. Very well-written. I also prefer the Sony method of trophies because it categorizes them into bronze, silver, and gold based on difficulty, so there's more satisfaction in doing the harder trophies as opposed to "Started Chapter 1".
If Nintendo had kept miiverse around it would have been great to get access to individual stamps for a game, with the better ones harder to complete, and being able to show them off in miiverse. THey are sorely missing the system-level trophy system, I would even think making a part of the paid online service would push me over the edge.
@JaxonH Ok, your usage of the trophy system sounds a LOT more balanced than what it sounded like in the last post (and what it sounds like some other people are talking about.) You're probably not going to go all Howard Huges on us....that's good.
I can't agree with wanting to "document my playtime forever"....it's kind of creepy in this world of your every move being monitored and documented.... Can't we just enjoy games in their own world and not try to log, record, and document every move we make? It's not really the same as save data. I save the save data in case I want to revist those worlds with all locations/items I've opened up still available to me to continue where I left off. Saving my BotW data for example isn't about keeping a "log" of it, but about, if I want to go raid a camp in Tabantha again with a Master Sword in hand, I don't have to start from scratch I can just do it. It's about continuation and keeping your earned features more than a running history.
Not going out of your way to get the trophies is a lot more reasonable....but I'm also not sure that's what the rest of the trophy enthusiasts are really talking about. I've played enough PS3, X360, PS4, and Vita to have racked up plenty of "trophies" that I never look at...I think I flipped through them once, and flipped through the "what trophies can you get" on a few games just for the absurdity, just because, but yeah...I still haven't realized how cool it is At least not on a level that's different from if they're in-game.
Out of curiosity I logged into PSN and it says I have 25 games across 5 systems and I can't find where it shows trophies.....I have a lot more than 25 games in there, so I'm not sure what's going on with that. And I know those trophies have popped up a lot though I'm sure I have less than you (I'm sure everybody has less than you ) But yeah...just never clicked with me. I've been earning trophies/achievements for a decade+....just...never really seemed interesting.
Interesting in your last paragraph though, because NORMALLY when this topic comes up it's all about praising XBox achievements, which was the originator of the system. PS copied it (albeit better) as they normally do, but the only real difference is the UI.
@Lethal@JaxonH What's interesting about this, is it must be some kind of reflection on personality types that some sociologist or geneticist could categorize us into. To me everything you describe is almost incomprehensible that anyone could find any value in that of any sort whatsoever.
Seems like you are the one with personality issue lol. Once again, just worry about yourself and why you play games. Judging people based on their hobby is your problem. And a problem it is...
For some reason I bet you would be singing a different tune if Nintendo implemented them to the Switch. You got your Nintendo panties in a bunch!
@NEStalgia Can't we just enjoy games in their own world and not try to log, record, and document every move we make
Sure. But when it comes to video games, it's a totally separate issue. We're not talking about the government intrusively recording every second of your gameplay and posting it on some website for the public to view- we're talking about personal accomplishments for your own enjoyment in a video game where you get a little permanent acknowledgment for milestones. I want to have a history to look back to, the same way you take pics on vacation or the way you record videos at a birthday party. You might not look at those pictures for 20 years but you like having them. Same reason people take screenshots when they're playing a video game (which Nintendo capitalized on and everyone seems to love). It's no different. Only trophies separate the wheat from the chaff, and provide a consise list of past accomplishments that are noteworthy.
And trophies aren't that interesting. I don't really look at them that often. But like your past save data (which is also not that interesting) you wouldn't like it very much if it was taken away from you. It's something you don't think about much but if you didn't have it you would notice. Same with trophies. It's something I've come to expect and when I don't have it it pisses me off because I've sunk thousands of hours into games and none of it will ever be remembered- countless experiences and memories that are lost forever.
If I do something really awesome in monster Hunter I want people to know about it! Or maybe I don't want them to know but I want them to have the ability to know. That way if one of my monster Hunter loving friends is playing the game and gets curious and decides to check out my trophy list he can see what an awesome hunter I am by my accomplishments:
Successfully felled a Deviljho while naked
Severed a Rathalos Tail Mid Air
Hunted and Killed a Crimson Fatalis
Unlocked All Crafting Recipes
Successfully Completed Low Rank!
Completed All High Rank Quests
Survived 5 Monsters at Once in the Arena!
Killed a Barioth in under 10 minutes! Trapmaster Successfully Trapped 50 Monsters
And on and on. That's the stuff I want to be able to look back upon. That's the stuff I want my friends who love the game to be able to look at, and see the awesome things I've done, and I can look at theirs and see the awesome things they've done.
Almost every gamer on the planet likes achievements/trophies. There's just no reason not to like it
All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Wages of sin is death. Romans
God so loved the world He sent His only Son- whoever believes on Him has eternal life. Unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Whoever believes, rivers of living water flow within them. John
Maybe you should just worry about you. And if you are upset that you can not turn off achievements, well then just ignore them and don't worry about them. Not hard to do.....
Or I can have my say like everyone else. Funny thing is, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be in the game, rather that they should give us an option to disable them completely. But if I had to chose between either have or have not, have not.
What's interesting about this, is it must be some kind of reflection on personality types that some sociologist or geneticist could categorize us into. To me everything you describe is almost incomprehensible that anyone could find any value in that of any sort whatsoever. Yet to you and the folks that like it the inverse is true. It's got to be a fundamental brain wiring difference. I'd love to expand that and see what other traits it ties to somehow. Who know video game achievements could unlock a whole field of genetics?
Nah, it's not genetic, it's psychological. People have been trained up to view them as something important they must have.
Seems like you are the one with personality issue lol. Once again, just worry about yourself and why you play games. Judging people based on their hobby is your problem. And a problem it is...
For some reason I bet you would be singing a different tune if Nintendo implemented them to the Switch. You got your Nintendo panties in a bunch!
Okay we'll worry about why we play games, you worry about why you get angry when people have a conflicting opinion. Believe it or not, just because we enjoy Nintendo, doesn't mean we laud them for everything they do.
@Operative2-0 Don't own an Xbox One, but according to their support site (and as expected), you can: ''Select Settings > All Settings > Preferences > Notifications. You can turn all notifications off, or you can choose what to do with individual Xbox and app notifications. See Customize your Xbox One Preferences options.''
you're making it sound, achievements are the selling point for you,
Who cares if that is the case? Who are you to judge what drives people to play and buy games?
Well I'm human, practically all of what we think and do is based on judgements. I don't think I should be denied that right while everyone else gets to keep it.
Maybe you should just worry about you. And if you are upset that you can not turn off achievements, well then just ignore them and don't worry about them. Not hard to do.....
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