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Topic: TG64 and metalkirbyknight's Recession Rant. Come join the fun!

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Turbo_Genesis_64

1. Posted:

Well, metalkirbyknight and me discussed the current economic disaster on a another thread. However, in respect to the author of the original thread we decided to start a new thread open to everyone! Basically, who do you blame for the current economic mess? Bush, Obama, Big Business, or Bowser?

Who I ultimately blame for The Great Recession is the American business model! CEOs pay have been out of control. 20 years ago they used to make 40 times as much as what a teacher makes and now they make 400 times as much as a teacher makes. To justify this pay jobs are cut and usually sent overseas.

I especially feel like the toll this process has had on the middle class accelerated under Bush Jr. The Republicans used to be the old fashion "Buy American" lot, but not anymore. Bush Jr. clearly was on a mission to transfer our manufacturing base to overseas China. He wanted to destroy the great paying Union jobs of the past.

His ghouls in business suits also orchestrated the housing crisis, by having Wall Street take a stake in the housing market. The rules of the past went out the window when new home owners were allowed to buy houses they could never afford to begin with. So no surprise this practice would affect housing costs, hurt banks that had a bunch of toxic housing loans, and cause a record number of foreclosures.

Banks started to collapse in 2008, Lehman Brothers' bankruptcy was really the final nail in the coffin. Stock markets were trashed around the globe and unemployment rates began surging. I think the current crisis isn't going to be overcome overnight or even in a year or two. It's a lot easier to get a car in a ditch than it is to drag that car up from a ditch! Hopefully, Obama and the Dem's recovery package will start having a positive effect. They have warned that this isn't a quick fix it could take many months to see positive results.

I think Obama's two biggest obstacles are 1) the American business model which really isn't about creating jobs in its own country and 2) a general public that is scared of Socialism even though Capitalism hasn't done them any favors lately!

I absolutely hate the way business uses the word "efficient" to justify their job cuts. It is about screwing all the employees not at the top.

Edited on by Turbo_Genesis_64

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metakirbyknight

2. Posted:

It's important to remember I hate both idiots. Please stop arguing with me as if I worship Bush.

metakirbyknight wrote:

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

metakirbyknight wrote:

Good luck, my family's income is quite dry right now, but luck was on my side and my family have jobs lined up. Anyway, I hope the bast for you and everybody else with this problem that bureaucrats have plagued us with.

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

The economy is rotten everywhere. I'm out of work myself right now. 8 years of Bush was horrible for the middle class and his policies have left the world at the bottom of an economic Grand Canyon.

As bad as Bush was, doesn't the democratic congress, that Barack Obama was a member of. Don't argue with me, not in this tread, if you want to argue get a thread going about it.

So you can take a jab at me, but I can't respond?

From 2007-2008, the Dems did have control of the House and Senate, but their number of seats in the Senate wasn't enough to be filibuster proof.

So you still have Bush Jr. with veto power and a bunch of Republican senators dragging their feet on regulating Wall Street and trying to spin the disaster of the last 8 years as best they could for the upcoming presidential election. So essentially there was gridlock.

Blaming Obama for “The Great Recession” is like blaming FDR for “The Great Depression.” They both inherited a mess.

We were a wealthy nation when Bush Jr. inherited the Presidency in 2001, but not anymore

To quote myself, "As bad as Bush was,". My main problem with it is that the congress is not responsible for anything they do, only the president gets blamed, I hate Bush, as well as our current administration. Really is less than one year enough to turn an entire economy sour? Clinton's policies had nothing to do with it... Also, I thought if we rushed the stimulus through unemployment would not go above 8%, as of June it was 9.5%. And we need another one. Remember was there really a problem before the democratic senate and house got in? Was it ever bad enough for freak out mode? But seriously start a new thread, not here. Put my name in the thread if you want it directed at me.

I'll just quote the original posts for convenience.

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

Who I ultimately blame for The Great Recession is the American business model! CEOs pay have been out of control. 20 years ago they used to make 40 times as much as what a teacher makes and now they make 400 times as much as a teacher makes. To justify this pay jobs are cut and usually sent overseas.

I especially feel like the toll this process has had on the middle class accelerated under Bush Jr. The Republicans used to be the old fashion "Buy American" lot, but not anymore. Bush Jr. clearly was on a mission to transfer our manufacturing base to overseas China. He wanted to destroy the great paying Union jobs of the past.

If I own a business, and I am contractually promised so much cash, should I not get the money I was promised? Why would anybody want to destroy us, if you can find any evidence just tell me.

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

His ghouls in business suits also orchestrated the housing crisis, by having Wall Street take a stake in the housing market. The rules of the past went out the window when new home owners were allowed to buy houses they could never afford to begin with. So no surprise this practice would affect housing costs, hurt banks that had a bunch of toxic housing loans, and cause a record number of foreclosures.

Assuming consumers were forced to buy houses they couldn't afford, then you'd be right, but they weren't. Bush sucked, Obama sucks more, a lot more.

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

Banks started to collapse in 2008, Lehman Brothers' bankruptcy was really the final nail in the coffin. Stock markets were trashed around the globe and unemployment rates began surging. I think the current crisis isn't going to be overcome overnight or even in a year or two. It's a lot easier to get a car in a ditch than it is to drag that car up from a ditch! Hopefully, Obama and the Dem's recovery package will start having a positive effect. They have warned that this isn't a quick fix it could take many months to see positive results.

If it isn't a quick fix than why did it have to be rushed. I was promised that unemployment would not go above 8 percent and as of June it was 9.5%. So, I have my reasons to be skeptical.

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

I think Obama's two biggest obstacles are 1) the American business model which really isn't about creating jobs in its own country and 2) a general public that is scared of Socialism even though Capitalism hasn't done them any favors lately!

I absolutely hate the way business uses the word "efficient" to justify their job cuts. It is about screwing all the employees not at the top.

Yes it is, they just can't because of our taxes, because less money always equals more employees. Capitalism hasn't done us any favors 'cause of all the regulation and fixing of something that ain't broke. If taxes were lower there would be money in the system that consumers would give to businesses which would give them cash to invest and create jobs in new sectors.

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Turbo_Genesis_64

3. Posted:

To clarify: you hate Bush, but hate Obama even more. However, you think Big Buisness is off the hook in their role in the collapse? You seem like a Libertarian. Also, it's unclear if you think Bowser played a role in it.

To clarify: I hate Bush. I hate "modern" Big Business even more. I don't think Obama is a saint, but I think he has good instints, for example he was publicly against the War in Iraq when it wasn't a popular thing to say as politician. Personally, I wish he would of jailed some of these corrupt CEOs who led us to this point. Bailing out the banks is never going to be popular, but the alternative would of been economic anarchy with more banks failing and credit cards not working. I would rather have him upset some folks than bring us back to the Stone Age. Hoover tried that and it didn't work for The Great Depression as it got worse.

The unemployment rate in Michigan where I live is 15.2 % largely because of the Auto Companies failing. 9.5% doesn't sound half bad compared to where I live! For a full job recovery, you need a strong manufacturing base at home. Let's be honest, America was better place when GM was the biggest employer in the nation -- wages and benifits were strong. Now the biggest employer in the nation is Wal-Mart and their wages and benifits suck.

I think we are in for a rocky road ahead. However, I sleep better at night knowing McCain and Palin aren't behind the wheel.

Edited on by Turbo_Genesis_64

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metakirbyknight

4. Posted:

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

To clarify: you hate Bush, but hate Obama even more. However, you think Big Buisness is off the hook in their role in the collapse? You seem like a Libertarian. Also, it's unclear if you think Bowser played a role in it.

To clarify: I hate Bush. I hate "modern" Big Business even more. I don't think Obama is a saint, but I think he has good instints, for example he was publicly against the War in Iraq when it wasn't a popular thing to say as politician. Personally, I wish he would of jailed some of these corrupt CEOs who led us to this point. Bailing out the banks is never going to be popular, but the altertative would of been economic anarchy with more banks failing and credit cards not working.

The unemployment rate in Michigan where I live is 15.2 % largely because of the Auto Companies failing. 9.5% doesn't sound half bad compared to where I live! For a full job recovery, you need a strong manufacturing base at home. Let's be honest, America was better place when GM was the biggest employer in the nation -- wages and benifits were strong. Now the biggest employer in the nation is Wal-Mart and their wages and benifits suck.

I think we are in for a rocky road. However, I sleep better at night knowing McCain and Palin aren't behind the wheel.

A also hate McCain, but quite like Palin.

I think he has good moments but so does every politician. Oh yeah, any CEO who clearly violated the law should be jailed as should the politicians, but Obama wouldn't jail himself. I do not want an economic anarchy, but there's really only a few necessary laws relating to the economy, yet the tax code is impossible for the average person to understand so we have to buy TurboTax, or for the politicians TurboTax Cheat Edition, looking at you Tim. Ah, but I was told, never above 8% so the program has not worked as expected, so it should be terminated.

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The_Fox

5. Posted:

@Metakirbyknight

Wait, you like Palin? Wow, that's a little sad.
Seriously, I don't know if the thread is a good idea. Do any of you remember the religion thread?

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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Turbo_Genesis_64

6. Posted:

The+Fox wrote:

@Metakirbyknight

Wait, you like Palin? Wow, that's a little sad.
Seriously, I don't know if the thread is a good idea. Do any of you remember the religion thread?

I agree Palin is a flake! Any person whose hobby is shooting wolves from a helicopter has issues.

Yea, I remember the religion thread. Well, we aren't here trying to resolve what is the one true God or what is the one true faith or what happened thousands of years ago. We are just making our case for who to blame for a financiall crisis that happened durning our lifetime.

Admit it, you thinks Bowser is responsible!

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Vendetta

7. Posted:

A lazy, self-entitled population took its eye of the ball and confused the authority of the government with the responsibility of the government. It let banking run roughshod over centuries of proven practices as they made new up new formulas out of whole cloth to justify their inflated, criminal earnings. It let corporate America sell its jobs overseas in order to increase profits. Now, because it's proven itself unable to govern its own affairs by not holding its representatives to account, it's left with those representatives advancing a nanny-state agenda. For the benefit of America, I hope they fail.
That is all I will say on this subject.

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metakirbyknight

8. Posted:

[quote="The+Fox"]

Vendetta wrote:

@Metakirbyknight

Wait, you like Palin? Wow, that's a little sad.
Seriously, I don't know if the thread is a good idea. Do any of you remember the religion thread?

Yes, because she has personality and can make a speech with a teleprompter or a script.

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

metakirbyknight wrote:

@Metakirbyknight

Wait, you like Palin? Wow, that's a little sad.

Any person whose hobby is shooting wolves from a helicopter has issues.

And our hobbies just not a little odd killing everything in sight with a chainsaw.

The+Fox wrote:

A lazy, self-entitled population took its eye of the ball and confused the authority of the government with the responsibility of the government. It let banking run roughshod over centuries of proven practices as they made new up new formulas out of whole cloth to justify their inflated, criminal earnings. It let corporate America sell its jobs overseas in order to increase profits. Now, because it's proven itself unable to govern its own affairs by not holding its representatives to account, it's left with those representatives advancing a nanny-state agenda. For the benefit of America, I hope they fail.
That is all I will say on this subject.

I agree with most of it, but when you say "let corporate America" I think it should be forced instead of let. As business would like jobs to be here but they tax freaking everything here so they can't, and a VAT Tax will clearly fix that.

Turbo+Genesis+64 wrote:

Admit it, you thinks Bowser is responsible!

I think he's responsible for the one in the Mushroom Kingdom, 'cause everybody's hurting.


Did I win?

Edited on by metakirbyknight

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Turbo_Genesis_64

9. Posted:

@metalkirbyknight

A VAT tax won't save us because jobs are shipped overseas because wages there are dirt cheap.

In a global economy, the developed country is always at a disadvantage when you are competing with countries that have child labor and other sleazy practises that make Big Business smile.

I'm sure Bowser votes Republican as they're in sync with his code of ethics.

Edited on by Turbo_Genesis_64

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nintendoduffin

10. Posted:

I'm no economist but from what I gather the current financial climate was caused by reckless lending to people who didn't have the means to honour their debts and now banks are reluctant to lend to anyone.

nintendoduffin

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jangonov

11. Posted:

@metakirbyknight
Personality and the ability to make a speech without reading a script shows wit (at best). And while a witty politician is always great, It would be nice if they knew something about foreign policy or how to be something more than a "hockey mom". Then again, I personally found Palin highly annoying. The only redeeming quality she had was that she was entertaining to watch at times because she struggled so much.

Call me crazy but I blame the people more than I blame the politicians. Dont get me wrong, I dont like many of them, but the people in this nation tend to do the opposite of what is right for everyone else. I believe that we live in times where greed has overcome much of our values. We accuse others of forsaking us, yet in reality we forsake ourselves. There is a recession, and people are not opening businesses, they are firing the workers they have and forcing the ones they keep to work more hours for less pay. And for the people out of work they turn to the government for help, while complaining how the same government "messed up the economy"

I may not know much and my views may be skewed, but as I see it PEOPLE are the demise of other people. In ancient times, cave men killed each other, further on, we forced each other into arenas to fight horrific things such as lions and most of all, our brother humans. Now we kill each other slowly and vindictively through financial crisis. We may not die in body, but our souls are gone. And that is a fate worse than death itself.

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Turbo_Genesis_64

12. Posted:

nintendoduffin wrote:

I'm no economist but from what I gather the current financial climate was caused by reckless lending to people who didn't have the means to honour their debts and now banks are reluctant to lend to anyone.

That's one part of the equation.

Like in the past, when someone bought a house, a bank would "shake the person down" to make sure that they could afford this investment, but under Bush Jr. the old rules went out the window with "sub prime loans." Wall Street and banks got obsessed with short term profit. They made some bad choices that came back to haunt them with a vengeance a few years later!

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Turbo_Genesis_64

13. Posted:

jangonov wrote:

@metakirbyknight
Personality and the ability to make a speech without reading a script shows wit (at best). And while a witty politician is always great, It would be nice if they knew something about foreign policy or how to be something more than a "hockey mom". Then again, I personally found Palin highly annoying. The only redeeming quality she had was that she was entertaining to watch at times because she struggled so much.

Call me crazy but I blame the people more than I blame the politicians. Dont get me wrong, I dont like many of them, but the people in this nation tend to do the opposite of what is right for everyone else. I believe that we live in times where greed has overcome much of our values. We accuse others of forsaking us, yet in reality we forsake ourselves. There is a recession, and people are not opening businesses, they are firing the workers they have and forcing the ones they keep to work more hours for less pay. And for the people out of work they turn to the government for help, while complaining how the same government "messed up the economy"

I may not know much and my views may be skewed, but as I see it PEOPLE are the demise of other people. In ancient times, cave men killed each other, further on, we forced each other into arenas to fight horrific things such as lions and most of all, our brother humans. Now we kill each other slowly and vindictively through financial crisis. We may not die in body, but our souls are gone. And that is a fate worse than death itself.

That last paragraph is pure poetry!

I think the problem with humans is that we all walk around acting like we are the star of the reality tv show called "Life." Very few of us try to see a situation from another's point of view. So if some of us are doing well, we just tune out the suffering of others. And when hard times sneak up on us, we act foolishly surprised even though the clues were all around us to begin with.

Edited on by Turbo_Genesis_64

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Sean_Aaron

14. Posted:

Very America-centric and whilst it's true the American madness with runaway mortgages (which apparently started under Clinton, but accelerated under Bush Jr.) caused a lot of problems for overseas banks with significant investments in American financial institutions (see RBS), I think the culture of greed that's existed since the 1980s is really to blame, with a focus on growth that has long outstripped common sense.

We've gone from bubble to bubble and this one that just burst really has nothing to replace it. I don't know what's going to happen in the future but the consumer economies of the USA and Japan that Europe has been gradually imitating are not sustainable. Bottom line, I'd prefer a managed economy with stability and a lot less money over letting people who's sole motivation is getting a big quarterly bonus gamble with everyone's hard-earned cash -- it just doesn't seem like a clever way to run an economy and it certainly doesn't make sense given ever rising global populations and dwindling natural resources.

I've never invested in the Stock Market because it seemed to make about as much sense as my weekly lottery tickets but a lot more risky. My pension is pure cash; my return is rubbish, but unlike my father I'll actually have something to show for it when I retire!

Edited on by Sean_Aaron

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metakirbyknight

15. Posted:

As Sean said many of these practices started under Bush.

I wish that the rest of the politicians knew how to do anything but tax.

It was fun to watch Obama telling them to fix the teleprompter.

Sorry if this is not good writing, but I'm doing it from my DSi, as I don't have access to my PC.

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jangonov

16. Posted:

metakirbyknight wrote:

As Sean said many of these practices started under Bush.

I wish that the rest of the politicians knew how to do anything but tax.

It was fun to watch Obama telling them to fix the teleprompter.

Sorry if this is not good writing, but I'm doing it from my DSi, as I don't have access to my PC.

As much as I hate taxes, you know those roads you drive on? and other things that keep up from being a third world country? Taxes. I don't like taxes but I appreciate what they do. Now if only somebody actually knew how to spend the tax dollars appropriately.

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metakirbyknight

17. Posted:

jangonov wrote:

metakirbyknight wrote:

As Sean said many of these practices started under Bush.

I wish that the rest of the politicians knew how to do anything but tax.

It was fun to watch Obama telling them to fix the teleprompter.

Sorry if this is not good writing, but I'm doing it from my DSi, as I don't have access to my PC.

As much as I hate taxes, you know those roads you drive on? and other things that keep up from being a third world country? Taxes. I don't like taxes but I appreciate what they do. Now if only somebody actually knew how to spend the tax dollars appropriately.

Your right, but taxes also got wasted on the $400 hammer, the $600 toilet seat, and who can forget the $7600 coffee pot? What? How can they spend that much on a coffee pot? Or, to make fun of California for a minute, $1.5 million on non-toxic dry cleaning, 40.5 million for migrant day care, 13 billion on education and other programs that they don't deserve. I don't want to bail out California, to be honest I want all the conservatives out of there, so we can lock them out of the union. I have more examples * cough * Government Motors * cough *.

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Machu

18. Posted:

Gordon F'ing Brown is to blame! The currently unelected leader of the United Kingdom has lost it completely, and is responsible for 10 yrs worth of borrowing and over-confidence. I'm a Labour voter (when I can be arsed), and stood behind Blair most of the time. But right now, I have to suffer that smarmy ***** face, the one who spent all that time as Chancellor, borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and salivating on Tony's shoulder, desperate to get his end of 'the deal'. Did I mention he is unelected, how amazing is that!

OK so the thing he did with 3rd world debt, will always go down as an amazing and worthwhile achievement. And many around the globe thank him for the 'bold' ideas that 'saved' us from this economic downturn. But that single-minded idiot was the one who let the banks self-regulate, allowed obscene bonuses to be paid in the city, borrowed to the point where we will owe £175bn (and that's UK billions not US ones), DIDN'T clear out shop when the despicable expenses stories unraveled, and help cause the crisis he has now saved us from.

I have sent a well written and polite letter, yet I doubt he has seen it. If I saw him on the street I would punch him really hard in that smarmy face. That night in the police cell, I would lie there with a rye smile.

Rawr!

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The_Fox

19. Posted:

Machu wrote:

. Did I mention he is unelected, how amazing is that!

Don't worry, Bush (W) wasn't elected the first time, either.
Just don't ask what happened with the second go around.

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-President John Adams

Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

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metakirbyknight

20. Posted:

The+Fox wrote:

Machu wrote:

. Did I mention he is unelected, how amazing is that!

Don't worry, Bush (W) wasn't elected the first time, either.
Just don't ask what happened with the second go around.

Oh, come on. The democrats know what the rules are, the popular opinion doesn't matter, the electoral college does. The court rules, and to quote Obama "I won". Yeah he was talking to some republicans trying to work with him and he goes all 4-year-old on them.

Did I mention I hate Bush, but will defend him against any idiotic attacks such as this.

Edited on by metakirbyknight

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