What makes this tough is the assist trophy aspect. I don't want to include them, but some of my favorites got relegated to assist trophies.
As for a few others, replace the characters that upgraded from assist trophy to fighters with new assist trophies. A Karate Joe, Chorus Kids or Chibi-Robo assist trophy could be cool.
I was also considering Porky pretty strongly, but I would prefer his boss fight from Brawl be added in a Boss Rush mode (I know it won't happen, but I can dream).
This ballot is for Fighters Pass 2, BUT ONLY IF rules are changed and Assist Trophys, Spirits and Costumes are allowed to be upgraded to Fighters.
If rules don't change and Fighters Pass 2 is 3rd-Party-only again, then this ballot is for the next Smash game or Fighters Pass 3 eventually.
Note that Edelgard, John Raimi, Jumpin' Jim Rivers, Oceana Louvier, Porky, and Ricky Winterborn may still appear as they're not an Assist Trophy, Spirit or Mii Costume (on that note, is there really no love for Doshin the Giant or someone from the Pilotwings/Pilotwings 64 cast?).
I'd love to see Porky getting the same treatment as Ridley, upgrading from a huge boss into a smaller fighter version, still within his spiderbot machine of course because that would make a hell of a fighter. He'd be a relatively big character much like Ridley, Bowser, DK, and the two Kings.
Ultimate has sort of a boss rush already in the final stage of adventure mode. I don't need an extra version of this. Break the Targets + Boarding The Platforms is all I need to make this game complete. And for extra wishes probably Smash Run because I never got the 3DS version.
Scores so far:
37pts. Rex & Pyra/Mythra (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) +5 10 10 10 +2
32pts. Skull Kid (The Legend of Zelda) +8 10 10 +4
29pts. Midna (The Legend of Zelda) +1 10 +3 10 +5
28pts. Isaac (Golden Sun) +1 +2 +5 10 10
27pts. Elma (Xenoblade Chronicles X) +6 +1 10 10
25pts. Chibi-Robo (Chibi-Robo!) 10 +5 +5 +5
24pts. Impa (The Legend of Zelda) 10 10 +4
22pts. Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong) +2 +5 10 +5
15pts. Cranky Kong (Donkey Kong) +5 10
15pts. Funky Kong (Donkey Kong) 10 +5
13pts. Takamaru (The Mysterious Murasame Castle) +1 +5 +5 +2
13pts. Waluigi (Super Mario) +1 +5 +7
12pts. Paper Mario (Paper Mario) +7 +5
10pts. K. K. Slider (Animal Crossing) 10
10pts. Toad (Super Mario) +5 +5
9pts. Edelgard (Fire Emblem) +9
8pts. Starfy (The Legendary Starfy) +1 +5 +2
7pts. Saki Amamiya (Sin and Punishment) +6 +1
6pts. Geno (Super Mario RPG) +1 +5
6pts. Octoling (Splatoon) +6
5pts. Bandana Waddle Dee (Kirby) +5
5pts. Spring Man / Ribbon Girl (ARMS) +5
4pts. Kyle Hyde (Hotel Dusk) +1 +3
3pts. Alexandra Roivas (Eternal Darkness) +3
3pts. Jill (Drill Dozer) +3
3pts. John Raimi (Geist) +3
2pts. Dillon (Dillon's Rolling Western) +2
2pts. Porky (EarthBound) +2
1pt. Andy (Advance Wars) +1
1pt. Black Shadow (F-ZERO) +1
1pt. Kamek (Yoshi) +1
1pt. Mallo (Pullblox) +1
1pt. Ricky Winterborn (1080° / Wave Race) +1
0pts. Ashley & Red (WarioWare)
0pts. Birdo (Super Mario)
0pts. Chorus Kids / Karate Joe (Rhythm Paradise)
0pts. Doshin (Doshin the Giant)
0pts. Goose (Pilotwings)
0pts. Jumpin' Jim Rivers (Excitebike)
0pts. Krystal (Starfox)
0pts. Mike Jones (StarTropics)
0pts. Oceana Louvier (Endless Ocean)
0pts. Pauline (Super Mario)
0pts. Peppy Hare (Starfox)
0pts. Shy Guy (Super Mario)
0pts. Slippy Toad (Starfox)
0pts. Tingle (The Legend of Zelda)
Come on, people! Free votes!
30 points to spend. (10 points max for one fighter.)
Forever Blue, or as we know it, Endless Ocean (2007) and Endless Ocean 2 (2010) for Wii are two of the best diving games ever made, both developed by Arika and published by Nintendo. There's lots of adventuring, tons to salvage, to learn about aquatic life, secret places to uncover, running an aquarium and tour service, and going online with a friend. You could even let your own mp3 music run in the game from SD Card. The follow-up added more of everything plus gameplay outside of the water, a customizable beach habitat, finding and training dolphin partners, deep and shallow waters around the globe, dangerous wildlife, and an online mode where you were able to communicate via Wii Speak voice chat.
@SKTTR I tried to be at least semi-realistic, but my dreams wouldn't let me. It's a great list of characters and honestly, I'd be happy with any of them. Even the ones I don't know much about would be cool.
I also like the idea of, if an Assist Trophy gets promoted (Isaac, Waluigi, Skull Kid, Takamaru, etc.), add in a replacement Assist Trophy, either as a new one or bring back a previous one.
Bring back Excitebikes, Mr. Resetti, Infantry and Tanks or Tingle.
A few other first and third party options:
Gunvolt from Azure Striker
Snipperclips
Rabbids
Beedle (BOTW), who drops items and food
Any of the four Champions from BOTW (Daruk's protection as a temp shield, Mipha's Grace to heal, Urbosa's Fury as an electric attack or Revali's Gale to add an additional jump for a period of time)
Sorry, not trying to derail the conversation (which I'm enjoying). I'm just bored at work right now.
A replacement Assist Trophy isn't needed, imo. You can always switch off certain Assist Trophy's if they bother you.
Mr. Resetti is a particularly annoying AT, and the only reason it would be good to have him in is just for fun and completeness' sake, but I would deactivate him if he'd show up too often and repeat himself too much.
Smash is a game where universes mesh, for example you get Link's from three different timelines, so I would not question beating up boss Ridley with fighter Ridley or having fighter Waluigi beating up AT Waluigi. Man, you can even select the same character 8 times if you want. There is no reason to erase/replace an AT when they get a fighter. Sakurai wouldn't erase/replace Spirits or Mii Costumes either, as we've seen with Lucas and Mewtwo in Smash 4, he'd only add on top of what we already have.
Snip & Clip from Snipperclips would be hilarious. How would they even fight? Moveset please.
Rabbids won't be playable before Rayman is. But I can see Rabbid Mii Costumes sold separately when Rayman fighter is released. However, Rayman is already a spirit (not to mention Rabbid-Mario, Rabbid-Peach, and Rabbid-Kong), deconfirming them just as much as any other spirit for Fighters Pass 1.
The Four Champions of BotW would make the fanbase go bonkers. You cannot pick one without angering the fan of another. Eventually, everyone will demand his choice and the topic wouldn't end until all 4 are in. Or is there a good reason to have only one of them above the others? And don't just answer 'But.. Urbosa!'
You're not derailing a conversation, this is the general Smash Bros. Ultimate thread.
So, one of the prevailing rumors I've seen is that there will be 10 more fighters, based on the research done a while back showing 16 additional character slots in the code (Piranha Plant plus Fighter Pass 1 being 6).
I don't think we'll get THAT many, but it helps make the speculation more fun (and easier).
I know the assist trophy replacements wouldn't be a "necessity," but I think it would be a good idea as a way of including popular characters that didn't make the final cut. Just an opinion really. And I get the argument about being able to keep them in there, being able to have 8 of the same fighter, etc. My thought process is more related to my OCD and making things fit in a nice little package. Technically they wouldn't have any effect on the game, but for my mind, I would consider it a cleaner package. But again, that's just me and my mild OCD.
Agree with the Rabbids, which is why I think Rayman will be one of the next available fighters. The Rabbids would be good for either an assist trophy or as part of Rayman Final Smash, in my opinion.
Snip and Clip... I don't know. Similar to how Color TV Game 15 basically plays Pong over top of your battle, Snip and Clip would play a puzzle over top, obstructing your view and dropping pieces that are clipped onto the stage, which cause launch damage, similar to the Pong ball.
As for the Champions, I'd probably say do something similar to Skull Kid, which has multiple effects. All four spirits of them appear, a random one of the four lights up and applies their effect. Daruk would give you temporary invulnerability, Mipha would drop 50 or 100% damage, Revali would give you an extra jump for a while and Urbosa would do a radial lightning attack around where the trophy was opened.
I have some more stuff I'll post after this with some characters I'd add. (Like I said, it's a slow day today)
Oh, also regarding Spirits and Mii costumes. I don't think Spirits necessarily "deconfirm" anyone at this point. I would imagine that they would treat them like the Fighter Spirits and add the Smash game model as an alternate on the same listing of the original.
Mii costumes I also doubt because they have King K Rool, Captain Falcon, Mario Maker (a skin for Mario), Samus, Inklings, Fox, Link (two) and Chrom. Oh, and I like the Rabbid Mii Costume idea, especially as a gunner from Mario + Rabbids.
@DarkSim01 Oh, I assumed you were rooting for fighters, not ATs, my fault. Snip & Clip, Rabbids, and Four Champions as ATs makes more sense now.
The most advanced AT's are 3rd party though: Bomberman and Alucard are practically finished fighters. Bomberman was just taken out because Konami wasn't 100% sure about him, and Alucard I don't know. Those two ATs being like 95% finished fighters would make them rather easy and quick additions to the roster. Bomberman's problems especially should have been sorted out by now.
Your OCD vs my OCD - don't ever take out or replace anything that's already in, you would subtract from my private 100% and get negative OCD karma.
A few quick notes:
I’m going to say there are ten new fighters (five all new, five echo). This is based on the theory I mentioned above.
There will be a mix of Nintendo fighters and third party fighters
For this, Spirits don't deconfirm fighters. I'd say they just add the Smash fighter model to the existing Spirit and move them to the "Fighter" category.
Any fighters that get promoted from Assist Trophy status will prompt a replacement assist trophy (just for the OCD I mentioned earlier)
I have them as two additional “fighter passes.” One for new fighters, one for echoes (at a lower cost).
Finally, because the final fighter for the first DLC hasn’t been revealed, there will actually be 11 listed below.
I’m going out on a limb and saying Crash Bandicoot as the last DLC for the first pass. He’s basically the equivalent of Banjo-Kazooie and his popularity is through the roof right now. Plus you want to finish the first pass off with a bang, and he would be a great icon for that.
Fighter Pass #2:
Doom Slayer – THE iconic FPS. Model him on the current games, but have Doom Guy as an alt.
Rayman – with how close Nintendo and Ubisoft are these days and him being the face of Ubisoft, it’s a great fit.
Rex & Pyra – They’re super popular right now and Nintendo is pushing Xenoblade hard.
Geno – He’s been a fan favorite and could be a fun addition
Waluigi – He deserves it. He could have an all sports-based moveset, focused around tennis (his debut).
Echo Fighter Pass (characters would likely have a few minor changes, like Chrom to Roy):
Dixie Kong – echo of Diddy Kong.
Black Shadow – echo of Captain Falcon. Would be a little slower, but stronger. Kind of a grey area between Falcon and the original version of Ganondorf.
Shadow the Hedgehog – echo of Sonic.
Medusa – echo for Palutena. Would add another villain and potentially lead to sparking desire for a new Kid Icarus…?
Impa – echo for Shiek.
(Honorable mention goes to Mr. Sandman)
Assist Trophy replacements (for Waluigi and Shadow):
Shantae – Her attacks could be fun and versatile. Plus another smaller third party character like Shovel Knight gets some love.
Hyrule Champions – All four spirits of them appear, a random one of the four lights up and applies their effect. Daruk would give you temporary invulnerability, Mipha would drop 50 or 100% damage, Revali would give you an extra jump for a while and Urbosa would do a radial lightning attack around where the trophy was opened.
Final thing, I think as a final last "hoorah," add in a few alternate skins for some fighters that wouldn't necessarily even require an Echo Fighter. Dry Bowser, Ms. Pac Man, Ninten, Mr. L, Gooigi, Detective Pikachu, Octolings.
@SKTTR Oh man, OCD battle! Hahaha! i don't see them as removals as much as "promotions." For example, the Waluigi model is there, he has animations and a few moves. Just expand and allow control.
I originally wanted Bomberman SO BAD. He was so close to my list, too. But I think he works just fine as an AT.
@DarkSim01 The Famitsu article about extra DLC fighters made it sound like Smash Ultimate was being supported as long as the Switch is still being supported so 16 doesn't seem that unrealistic. 2022 sounds like a reasonable release date for the Switch 2 or whatever crazy gimmick system Nintendo goes for to succeed the Switch.
@SKTTR Given that the game turns off certain Assist Trophies on every stage already, it could just turn off certain ATs if certain characters are already being used in the match as well relatively easily most likely.
As for the 10 slots, sounds like futureproofing to me as the most they could possibly expect to add, but I could also see us hitting that many as well.
@link3710 Duh, I never realised that. Yeah, that would be a neat option to deactivate Assisst Trophies for promoted fighters.
@Grumblevolcano Yeah, I heard about the datamining and 16 free DLC fighter slots. It's shaping up nicely to fit two more Fighters Passes with 5 fighters each.
@DarkSim01 Crash Bandicoot as the next character? Are you out of your mind? The trilogy on Switch just showed how frustrating the games actually were and still are, and even back then the games were overhyped and paled in comparison with Super Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie. Keep in mind Crash Bandicoot's first 3 games were Playstation exclusive and his first Nintendo outings were nothing to write home about. The Wii games are just boring compared to similar games of that era, like Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2. Crash was a Playstation mascot and a Nintendo rival. (Spyro is also from Activison, and is pretty similar to Crash in being a Playstation exclusive for the most part, though that series had much better games, and even Spyro spin-off Skylanders crossed over with Donkey Kong and Bowser.) So, before Crash comes Spyro and before Spyro comes Rayman. And Rayman is still deconfirmed (spirit). I say Crash has absolutely no chance, especially not for a big finale. He is by no means relevant or huge or good enough to say "he'd finish the first Fighter Pass off with a bang''.
I mean, just look at the others on in the Fighters Pass:
Banjo-Kazooie, from a time when Rareware was a Nintendo 2nd Party. Rare produced tons of quality games, (at least 5 games starring Banjo: Banjo-Kazooie N64, Banjo-Tooie N64, Banjo: Gruntilda's Revenge GBA, Banjo Pilot GBA, and Diddy Kong Racing N64) with the original Banjo-Kazooie rivaling even Nintendo's Super Mario 64(!) and tons of other SNES and N64 classics (GoldenEye was actually refered to in Smash 64, Perfect Dark was in Melee). Even Conker comes before Crash.
Dragon Quest, the Godfather of JRPGs that started on Nintendo's first console and continued on the SNES. You can't count the amount of quality DQ games released on Nintendo consoles! It's a game where million people stay away from school or work when it releases. I mean check out the people's reactions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI3yW92NHig
Joker, from a series that started way back as Megami Tensei on Nintendo's first console and continued on the SNES. Honestly, I don't know much about the series, as it was Japan-only for the most time, but many people love it so I'm eager to fill this hole now that Smash put it on my radar.
Terry Bogard, from Fatal Fury and The King of Fighters. SNK (creators of NEO GEO and masters of arcade action and fighting games) rep. I counted this character in 46 different Nintendo releases and re-releases (there are probably more) but all of them have one thing in common: they are some of the best fighting games even today.
I think Crash would be a pretty huge add all around mainly due to having been the former Playstation mascot. But yeah, I'd prefer Rayman > Spyro > Crash as well, but Crash seems to have the largest following of the three already.
Rayman is... he needs more love from Ubisoft, considering how well critically received Origins and Legends were. We know Legends sold close to a million units between the Wii U and the Vita versions alone in the first two months, and despite that 'not meeting expectations' they had to have made their money back by now with all the other console ports. VGChartz estimates it at around 4 million sales (without PC sales estimates) across all the platforms, that's no small chunk of change. Of course, the Vita version did definitely flop on launch, but that decision is another story entirely.
And, to get back around to the topic of conversation at hand, it's hard to say if he'd truly get in without Ubisoft's support. On one hand, clearly they're aware that there's a love for him in the Smash community since he's one of the few third party characters to show up as a trophy or spirit without his company having other representation. But it's possible that's because Ubisoft isn't interested in him being an actual fighter, so they gave us that as consolation.
@SKTTR
I disagree about Crash.
Frustrating games can also mean difficult games. The games aren’t broken, they’re just difficult. TThere are plenty of difficult and frustrating games represented in Smash already. F-Zero was notoriously difficult and frustrating upon its release (and still is), DK Tropical Freeze is a platformer with a steep learning curve (as well as the older ones), Earthbound is one of the longest games of its generation, Mega Man was difficult and frustrating in its day, Simon’s Quest is just… wow, and we can’t forget about Sonic 2006 being virtually unplayable. And if you think Crash Bandicoot is frustrating, clearly you’ve never used a R.O.B. My point is, the game being frustrating is an irrelevant argument.
The rest of what you say it just opinion, all of which I disagree with, for a few reasons:
1. The Crash games were huge upon their release and seen by many as on par with Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie. Crash scores for the first 3 games were in the 8’s and 9’s out of 10, same as the others.
2. Crash has 11 games on Nintendo consoles, 4 of which were exclusive handheld titles. Same stats for Spyro, I believe. Both went on a long hiatus. The only difference is that Crash was the Sony mascot, Spryo was just another character.
3. Skylanders wasn’t a Nintendo venture, as much as it was an Activision venture that Nintendo allowed to use a couple of properties for. Also, if I’m not mistaken, the original Skylanders wasn’t a Spyro game, he was just a featured character.
4. Your opinion on Spyro games being better than Crash games is subjective.
5. Conker coming before Crash is laughable to the point that it seems like you hold a personal grudge against Crash.
6. Final point, I believe ending the first fighter pass with a bang is vital. There are still people out there who are still on the fence about the fighter pass and ending it with a big statement could push them over the edge. And there isn’t much bigger of a statement than adding in a former system rival and gaming icon to the game.
The other character points I’m not arguing with, because they all seem like good choices to me. Banjo was a fan favorite to add to the game since the first one came out and he wasn’t on it. Joker and Hero are huge Japanese gaming faces and Terry is a fighting game icon. But as much as they are icons to their respective eras and genres, Crash is to his.
Also, as I’ve said few times before, in relation to Rayman, I don’t think for the second fighter pass (assuming it will be a pass and not individuals), I don’t think spirits necessarily deconfirm at this point. This announcement of more characters has thrown everything out the window and we have no idea what to expect. Nothing is off the table, as far as I’m concerned. That being said, I would see him as more likely than Crash because of the Ubisoft relationship, but I saved him for the second pass because of the “spirit” aspect, as it shows he clearly wasn’t in the “original plan,” at least.
Besides, if spirits deconfirm fighters, almost your entire list for the poll is void. But you distinctly make that point in the poll, so why not grant the same permissions here? You also call them “rules,” as if they are in stone. But that was never truly confirmed to begin with.
@link3710 Ubisoft has made their own F2P Smash Bros. clone called Brawlhalla (also available on Switch) where Rayman among other characters from his and other universes are already fighting smash-style. Rayman was a trophy in SSB4 and got 4 spirits in Ultimate, I think that should tell us something.
The only other 3rd parties ever featured in Smash (apart from the ones that have a fighter in) were Gaijin Games/Choice Provisions (CommanderVideo from BIT.TRIP), Yacht Club Games (Shovel Knight), WayForward (Shantae), and Toby Fox (UNDERTALE). There are no traces of Activision or Crash Bandicoot in Smash.
Ashley (Warioware) +15
Mike Jones (Startropics) +10
Geno +5
10 pts max for one character please, this rule cannot be changed.
However, I will add Mike Jones from StarTropics. I really liked the two NES games.
Also, can I ask you a personal question? Why you like Ashley so much?
@DarkSim01 Just see it all as my opinion and not as a fact:
Super Mario 64 was an epiphany, it did new and fun things no other game has done before, and it invented the standard for a genre, and Banjo-Kazooie bested it in many ways. They were real 3D adventures with tons of gameplay, exploration, variety, depth, while Crash Bandicoot (I never said it is broken) was just a janky, linear 2 1/2D platformer with style over substance. For future reference please compare Crash to Sonic, not to Mario, Banjo, Donkey Kong, or Conker. On that note...
F-ZERO series is extremely deep and the 3 main games are perfect.
Captain Falcon >>> Crash Bandicoot
And...
comparing EarthBound to Crash Bandicoot is always wrong.
I reduce 10 points from your votes with my PK powers.
Never swing out so far again by comparing Crash to anything else than its own genre companions, because it doesn't make sense and I punish doesn'tmakesensemakers.
And spare us of a Crash Team Racing vs Mario Kart debate, because comparing a clone to the original would not change my mind either. The best you can do is telling me what that fantastic best Crash game was that I apparently have missed to play.
Now I'm ready to get into your arguments.
1. I'm aware of the hype, of Sony's need to have a Mario killer on their first Playstation. And Crash Bandicoot was just the best platformer on the system, but in reality it was bad even compared to the 2 1/2D games on the N64 like Mischief Makers or Mystical Ninja 2 that received only a 6-8/10 at the time.
Nowadays you get Crash Bandicoot gameplay in trashy casual minigame compilations, where cows run along a linear path to break boxes and pick up strawberries.
2. Spyro, just like Crash, had it's first 3 trilogy of games on Playstation, not on N64.
3. The original Skylanders was called 'Skylanders: Spyro's Adventure'. Skylanders/Spyro has a bigger connection to Nintendo due to huge Nintendo IPs crossovering with it, and therefore is more valuable to Nintendo than Crash Bandishloot.
4. Yes, it is. Is an opinion after all.
5. I love Conker's Bad Fur Day. His game is better than all of Crash Bandicoot's and his character is better than Crash Bandicoot.
6. Yes, but the bang is different for everyone. Nintendo and Sakurai will make the right choice. So far they have, for once. The right choice however, will not be Crash Bandifoot. He's high up there in popularity, but history and game quality speak for itself. And so far Sakurai has always put history and game quality before hype. He ultimately took only the biggest series and gave them the most popular faces of that series.
As I explained earlier, the poll is not for Fighters Pass 1, because Spirits, Mii Costumes, and Assisst Trophies clearly deconfirm fighters in this set, because those are a clear signal to say ''sorry, they didn't make the cut, but see, I know you love them and they're in the game, but in another form''.
Sakurai has not set a new rule. From its spoken words it's clear that he wants to progress in the same direction that he is now, and that implies that we can dream to get something like Fighters Pass 2 with 5 brandnew 3rd-Party-characters!
So the poll is likely not for Fighters Pass 2 either!
The poll is more likely for Fighters Pass 3 or 100% likely for Smash 6!
@SKTTR Oh I'm aware of Brawlhalla, but that's what worries me. If Rayman's already in their attempt to take on Smash, do they really want to let one of their biggest selling points for that game go away?
And regardless, there's no way the final character won't be one that's popular in Japan, and Spyro, Crash, and Rayman all struggle in that region. Most likely I see us getting someone like Sora (Kingdom Hearts), Heihachi (Tekken), or Jill Valentine / Leon Kennedy (Resident Evil). Someone who's got a long history, is popular in Japan, and still relevant today. Unfortunately, Rayman, Spyro, and Crash all lack one of those conditions. Chances are, worldwide popularity isn't a major factor, they tend to care more about Japanese popularity for the biggest reveals, making western popular characters compensated for by releasing info on an eastern one at the same time (See Banjo & Kazooie and Hero, King K Rool and Simon/Richtor).
I agree with a character that has to be popular in Japan (at least as much as it is popular in the West) to be the final challenger from the Fighters Pass.
Especially when it's about games that have their roots on a Nintendo console. There's a strict hierarchy in the selection process for 3rd Partys. That's why Dragon Quest Hero had to come out as the 2nd Square Enix character instead of anyone else. That's why Banjo had to come out before anyone from Ubisoft or Activision. And that's why Terry comes before Heihachi or any other fighting game character.
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