Topic: Xenoblade Chronicles 2

@Wargoose

Nah, Final Fantasy has some of the best romances in the entire history of gaming. Locke and Celes, Zack and Aerith (sorry Cloud), Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, Tidus and Yuna.
Those are all really great relationships. Way better than most of the examples in western RPGs.

Things that would make Xenoblade 2 a better game?

• More intuitive combat
• A better compass/less confusing geography in the landscape
• Better handheld mode optimization
• Tether rare blade acquisitions to quests/story progression.
• Rethink side-quests.

The majority of my issues with XC2 are addressed in Torna. Really, really love that game.

@Wargoose I 100% agree with all those suggestions. I think you’re right about how the Xenoblade games are written too, though I think that’s a problem with a lot of JRPGs as a whole. But, yeah, smart suggestions.

@Ralizah Torna is SUCH a good game. I remember reading in an interview that they wanted to make Torna more “adult” and I think it’s that sort of seriousness that the main game is missing at times that makes it so good. The ending of Torna, even though you know what’s coming, still managed to make me feel so many emotions.

To address another point that was brought up earlier in the page (about Pyra/Mythra's outfit not being realistic for combat), I think that's just a really lazy argument when it comes to addressing sexualization in JRPGs.

Don't get me wrong, it's absolutely fine to take issue with sexualized female character designs and critique that aspect of the game (or genre as a whole), but if we're being honest, JRPG character design in general is style over substance, and while male characters generally aren't sexualized to the degree that female characters are, their outfits don't tend to be any more battle appropriate (for what it's worth, back when I played FFX on the PS2, my father referred to it as "Final F**asay", probably because Tidus & Wakka bared their midriffs? I dunno), so I don't think that argument in itself holds much water.

If you do want to get technical regarding the world building of XC2 though, I think it's best to remember that Blades aren't human (which includes no way to traditionally die, and have high speed damage regeneration), so what they see as appropriate or necessary would differ quite a bit from more mortal beings (then again, Pyra/Mythra's life was tied to Rex's, though I think she only does if he dies?).

@RR529 I think you can spin the narrative that way if you want, but it sounds like you're trying a little too hard to justify a developers love for maids and mammaries.

@horizonisland It really makes me wish Monolith would make more of these smaller RPGs. The main Xenoblade games FEEL bloated, whereas Torna's smaller amount of content is still satisfying (took me 30 or so hours to beat the game), but everything felt meaningful. I've never played a Xenoblade game where the sidequests almost all felt like they were worth engaging in (sans that stupid green barrel one...).

And yeah, I guess because it's a prequel, Monolith was willing to go tragic for the ending, and I absolutely loved it. Especially after Chronicles 2 pulled its heftiest emotional punch at the very end.

@horizonisland That's why I didn't really care for Pyra or Mythra when I played it. Nia on the other hand, she's absolutely amazing in every way!

@Wargoose, again, taking issue with female character sexualization in JRPGs is a perfectly fine critique, I never said otherwise.

I only ever took issue with the specific argument that they need to be dressed more appropriately "for battle", which is something that almost no one in the genre is dressed appropriately for, sexualization or not.

It's perfectly valid to say "Hey, I'd like this or that design better if they covered up some cleavage or put on some pants, and think it'd be great at drawing in a wider audience that way" and leave it at that, because being "dressed for battle" doesn't seem like something they take too much into account for any character.

I'd think the argument is more that, in contrast to the females, most of the male blades do appear dressed for battle. The only real exception is Floren and he also happens to be the token effeminate one.

As a counterpoint, I've heard zero mentions of anyone caring about the realistic portrayal of character's outfits for battle for any reason in anime stuff like this, unless they want to point out the disconnect with the women.

Which is fine to a degree, but no one actually cares if the outfits are the best for combat for something like this. That element does not matter for much of the people complaining about it. The previous games embraced that in fact, allowing for absurd outfits for everyone. The bizarre, unexplained inconsistency is the beginning and end of the actual problem.

I suppose you could say that few JRPGs are big on realism. You're generally looking at their Western counterparts if you want that, although they've also accumulated some unrealistic tropes of their own.

As such, I'd think it's mostly a case of meeting audience expectations and after several decades of jiggle physics, sexy armour, and fighting f**k toys, you probably could say that Pyra does indeed look the part of a JRPG heroine. That's really what the cultural critique is about.

So far as the earlier Xenoblade games go, the fan service is mostly of the opt-in variety. There's nothing to stop you from dressing Sharla or Elma in a bikini and pointing the camera at her boobs while you jiggle them about, if that's what you want to do, and let's not forget that boob-size slider in the character designer for X in the Japanese release. Xenoblade 2 just puts it more front and centre because of its default costumes and the way the cut scenes are presented.

Mind you, go back to some of the earlier Xeno games and there are some seriously WTF moments of fan service. Believe it or not, but Monolith are actually toning things down a bit when working with Nintendo.

I'm totally fine with a game having fanservice if it fits the character (Bayonetta), or the whole game is fanservice based (Dead or Alive). My biggest issue is when a game establishes characters as very modest (... Mythra), then sticks them in an incredibly revealing outfit. It doesn't make sense from a story perspective, and is incredibly jarring.

And yeah, since there's basically no male fanservice, that doesn't help, since that's the kind I like lol. But it's totally possible to have fanservice in a JRPG without breaking the story. Look at FFX, Octopath Traveler, XC1...

Of course, I think the amount of skin showing isnt the real problem with XC2 either anyways, it's more the immature dialogue. The 'sexy' dialogue is incredibly cringeworthy (the one eyed dialogue comes to mind) and occasionally disturbing (most of Tora's interactions with Poppi).

I loved Torna right up until the main quest line is walled off until you complete a ton of crappy side quests.

@link3710 Good point. Literally the only time I’ve ever seen male fan service in a JRPG is in Atelier Ryza with one male character’s $2.99 swimsuit outfit called “Muscle Volcano.” It is, admittedly, literally the ONLY reason I bought the game, as I wasn’t thinking clearly because there was a shirtless man and I never think clearly around them...
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But I was planning on doing a replay through of this game, and now I’m not as excited, because I did finally realize Tora made a maid sexbot in the form of a 10 year old girl and there is absolutely NO way to defend that. The games’ fan service has always been cringe and very unhealthy and I’d gotten used to it but that takes things to a WHOLE new level.

@Wargoose Tetsuya Takahashi is the main writer and director of the xeno franchise as a whole and he actually worked together with his wife on his earlier works, so yes he does have first hand experience with a relationship, which i think can be seen in Xenogears where the story characters and romance is really amazing imo. Granted, there have been a few other writers but he should have a big influence on the writing since he is also the director.

Yeah that's my only issue with it really. I don't care that much what the visual character designs are, as long as it fits in with the story and character backstories. With Mythra and Pyra is just seems a bit arbitrary.

I do wish Pyra wore pants, but it's difficult for me to get worked up about one character in a skimpy outfit. Especially when the game isn't filled with fanservice otherwise.

I understand the criticism, but the 'issue' is really blown out of proportion, IMO.

@scoobdoo

Considering how well-integrated the side-content is with the main story, it didn't really bother me, any more than when any game walls off one story branch until others are completed.

@horizonisland I'll defend it.

I don't recall the game insinuating Tora molests the robots at all. The joke begins and ends with Tora being a weirdo otaku with a secret maid fetish, which primarily revolves around them wearing maid garments and calling him "master." And the joke is largely abandoned after that one cutscene when you first meet Poppi.

Moreover, Poppi's physical stature becomes increasingly adult-like when she changes forms, so I don't know that it's meaningful to liken her to a small child.

I understand not liking that element of the game/Tora's character, but going full SVU with it is being a bit disingenuous.

@Ralizah It’s true that the joke dies down (mostly) after the cutscene. There are passing remarks about Tora’s father and grandfather having the same fetish which is weird and creepy but to be fair they are criticized by the characters in heart to hearts and it is clear that Tora and Poppi consider each other to be equals.

I still love this game, even if I do have more problems with it that I used to. I spent over 370 hours completing every rare blade’s affinity chart and completing literally every quest and defeating literally every unique monster. And I barely touched Challenge Mode! I love the locales like Uraya and Leftheria and I love the voiced cutscenes in the Blade side quests.

For example, I HATED Dahlia’s design but then playing her blade quest with that little girl made me fall in love with her personality. She’s kindhearted and a great role model and I found that to be touching.

I still think the fan service is a little much. Mythra is literally not wearing any pants, for instance. And did they really need to add jiggle physics? But the positives of the game shine through, even despite Tora

@horizonisland The blade quests are one of my favorite aspects of the game. I just wish they made it easier to get most of the rare blades in the first place. Nothing fun about grinding gacha mechanics.

Mythra's outfit doesn't bother me as much, since whatever she has on is more like a short skirt and less like a thong merged with hotpants.

Really, they should have patched in Mythra's Smash getup as an alternate look. It just looks better.

@Ralizah I love the blade quests so so much even if just a couple of them were overly tedious (Zenobia) or duds (Kassandra). Still, they were one of the best parts of the game and honestly they could add 20 more blades and I would be nothing but delighted to do 20 more blade quests.

Also, Mythra’s smash outfit looks 100% better and is much more believable. I’m really glad Monolith added an AUX core to use that look (and they made it powerful to boot)