@Ryu_Niiyama I'm not going to reply to every point, and I really have no idea what this argument is even about. It clearly IS a hot-button issue for you, which is fine. Maybe you have experiences that made it become that way. But you entered the conversation seemingly looking for an argument with someone that wasn't even arguing with you. If it's an important issue that you're sensitive about, fine, but I don't appreciate finger pointing and arguments in place of actual discussion about the actual comment rather than the imagined one based on the extremely common "there I fixed it for you" meme. And to be honest, my opinion of you has always been, including in the years of lurking here, that you were a very even-keeled, practical, common-sense, reliable person, in a sea of angry reactionaries, and in this conversation that opinion has become very severely damaged.
Yes, I broadened the scope of the problem. I stand by that. You can focus on specific behavior against women all you'd like, but the broader view that that is a SYMPTOM of another problem in the context of gaming/internet culture isn't affected by that. You wrote paragraphs seemingly designed to convince me of the very thing I already said. I already said women were targeted more and the particular attacks tailored to women are intentional. You attack that as though I was comparing specific attacks used on women versus specific attacks used against men as though this is a contest of "who's the biggest victim", while I was attempting to discuss the common root underlying it all. And you frame it in a context that these people "hate women." While I'm sure there are odd handfuls that do, most of these people certainly don't "hate women", they'll simply apply power and intimidation over anyone they think they can, and women are an ideal candidate for attack, partly because there ARE so few around, and partly because as your own response indicates, it's an easy mark. You said it yourself in your own text, rape threats work at a primal level. THEY WORK. Perfectly, effectively, easily, almost every time. Candy from a baby, and they don't even have to work for it. It's an easy target, with an easy, predictable method of attack, and so they will go for it, and get their desired result, almost without fail, every single time.
Nevermind the fact that's a criminal offense were they caught, of course. As are death threats, punch threats, and whatever else going on.
Even descending from the criminal, back to "female dog comparisons" the outrage you demonstrate over the history of the treatment of women as related to that single word and the comparison it evokes. That right there is half the reason it works. They say one offensive word and you're going to link that to thousands of years of history and become upset by it? Well of COURSE the people who will do anything they can to upset and intimidate will pick fruit hanging that low!
To be clear, I'm not making a DEFENSE for their actions. I am not JUSTIFYING their actions. You keep debating my points as though I was discussing a comparison of treatment of men and women in internet games, which I was not, I was only, as I stated, considering the underlying nature and causes of it from an observational standpoint. Trying to analyze the whats & whys. Honestly you're validating my points for me better than I ever could, by both example and statement. I was contemplating the "whys" of it, and you are providing very clear reasons AND very clear examples of how that theory works in motion. It's more clear to me than ever now, that that is indeed the lions share of what's going on.
That goes nowhere toward solving it, and if anything raises the question of if a solution is even possible. Your view posits that it's simply the natural order of things, and always has been, and is therefore almost certain to never change, outside arbitrary social constructs that work either by force or by volunteerism. My view was far less grim, that there's a specific problem with the makeup of people on the internet/gaming scene, and how to solve that problem. I certainly hope for everyone's sake I'm right, because if you're right, the future is quite bleak.
Unfortunately, you've raised several straw men to argue against points I never actually made, and dragged the conversation into directions far, far, outside the scope of anything I was actually talking about, and it appears numerous people have followed you there. At this point, no good can come of further discussing it. We're arguing across each other at entirely different points, and I wasn't even trying to argue with you about anything. In addition, you seem to have drawn support of other commenters who are joining you in attacking comments that were never even made. Unfortunately this thread is now PART of the generalized toxicity on the internet, and not a discussion about it.
In the future, if you're ever wondering why the conversations you'd like to have on this type of subject don't happen, you might want to consider your own responses. I'd have gladly discussed things like this with you, at least based on my original view of your character, outside this we generally have always seemed to share a common viewpoint on many subjects including people's nature, we probably could have had a great conversation about it. But your first reply to me was to point fingers and instead of discussing my own post from a perspective of discussing the underlying problems of the population makeup in gaming and why that might be and/or how/if it can be fixed, you launched an attack about "group A is the biggest victim" which is in fact unrelated to what I had said at all and openly ignores that the whole point of my statement was that regardless of what group or groups receive the worst abuse, there is a common underlying problem behind it. Further, online treatment of women was only one of many points in the initial discussion that was originally focused mostly on demographics before you changed the direction into this single problem.
To be blunt, you have a bias on this topic, no matter how well deserved or justified, it's clearly present and skews your interaction with people. And instead of reading my post and discussing my actual comment as written as you would most other topics, you immediately read it in the worst possible context, added your own arguments to it that you assumed must be implied, and launched into an argument about it. In all honesty, while that kind of issue may only be present in this topic, and you may have good reason to have a bias regarding it, I will likely be highly cautious in any interaction with you of keeping everything edited, and business-formal as I now know any statement without every 'i' dotted and 't' crossed will be greeted with suspicion of implied intent. Which is very disappointing, as you're one of the people I signed up to banter with to begin with!
This says it all, really: "The difference in abuse between the sexes online isn’t in the amount but the type. Data shows men get more hate, while women say they get it because they’re women."
An interesting excerpt:
"Although women in the study don't appear to receive more online abuse, the abuse they receive does seem to focus more on their being women than on anything they have said or done.
Much of the worst abuse women receive came from Twitter accounts with female identities: 24.4% of abuse received by men was from apparently from women; while this figure rose to 29.3% for women's accounts."
No idea if this is reflective of harassment in gaming culture, but I thought it was interesting.
I think it's important to keep our focus on examining the universal problem of online abuse and harassment rather than turning this into some feminist harangue on why men hate women so darn much. It's cancerous and divisive.
This says it all, really: "The difference in abuse between the sexes online isn’t in the amount but the type. Data shows men get more hate, while women say they get it because they’re women."
An interesting excerpt:
"Although women in the study don't appear to receive more online abuse, the abuse they receive does seem to focus more on their being women than on anything they have said or done.
Much of the worst abuse women receive came from Twitter accounts with female identities: 24.4% of abuse received by men was from apparently from women; while this figure rose to 29.3% for women's accounts."
No idea if this is reflective of harassment in gaming culture, but I thought it was interesting.
I think it's important to keep our focus on examining the universal problem of online abuse and harassment rather than turning this into some feminist harangue on why men hate women so darn much. It's cancerous and divisive.
When it comes down to it I really just believe the problem is online toxicity. And it just so happens the fact a person is a woman is the difference an insult can be formed from. If you have let's say a White male talking to a White woman, the difference immediately found between them is gender. If you have a Black male talking to a White Male, the difference is race. If you have two White Males talking, a difference they'll try to point out is success in-game. I don't think many gamers nowadays think woman are any less equal, but since it was that way in the past it's an easy choice for an insult. The same goes for race, weight, height, etc.
@DizziParadise Aww, thank you! My family is pulling together, but we are all a bit bummed.
Meh, no reason to get upset about any responses. You know the line, the wall; just so long as we refuse to be silent and extend positive ki, that is all we can do. The rest is up to each individual person. A wonderful day to you!
Taiko is good for the soul, Hoisa!
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(May is a particularly busy month for me, but I've finally caught up on this thread and am replying to any...well, replies aimed at me)
@koopatroopaX: Your last paragraph summarizes things quite well. Unfortunately, some can't accept that everyone has their own likes and interests and can't abide by concepts that exist outside of their definition of "normal".
@Ryu_Niiyama: I'm an alto myself (can't hit really high notes to save my life), so occasionally I've been mistaken as a male over the phone. I'm sorry that your sister was treated that way, even in a position of authority. (I was never in anything other than casual guilds, the concept of guild screening seems a bit odd to me). I've never really done much voice chat in games since I dislike using phones/mics/etc., other than with a faraway friend when we used to interact via the Pokemon franchise. I'm also sorry for your loss. Bereavement was partially why my site activity dropped in February/early March.
There are a couple of personal notes I'd like to drop, but I'd rather do that with a PM system of sorts. (I believe the site needs one, but I can also understand the reluctance of not implementing one either.
Having a diversity of characters would be cool. But honestly being hispanic myself, I never actually really cared about being represented in Video Games. What I care about more is gameplay, story, music and overall quality of game design. Thats what matters the most. And I still don't care if they don't add hispanics, I don't really need someone to represent me to be inspired. If they do add different ethnic groups in games, its more of a variety thing for me. Sometimes i'll pick the white person, sometimes black, asian, or woman. I basically treat it that same as if I were playing Mario Kart, and I switch it up between Mario, Bowser, Peach and Toad. Less about being represented and more off just having something new and different to use. It all depends on what I'm feeling today, and i'll sometimes mix it up so I just don't stay as one type of person.
I think it's cool that you don't feel you need to be represented personally in the media (including video games).
However I think it's important to understand that someone with a similar background, education and level of maturity to yourself might take exactly the opposite point of view. They may feel it's important and greatly value "representation" even if they don't need it.
All of these things are very personal which is why they're very difficult. As I said before - we can try empathise with each other, try to understand the logic that drives other people but we can never feel what another person feels.
I did at first think about not replying any more to this thread because I thought "it's not my fight - I'm not directly personally affected" but then I contemplated it a bit more and came to the conclusion that it affects us all - just in greatly different ways and to greatly different extents.
Identity is the most personal thing and a tremendously important thing which is why identity will always and should always have a role in politics. That's not always a popular opinion to have.
As a white working class male I understand why it's not always a popular opinion because I've felt the objection to it deep down. Not because I'm racist or sexist or against any gender or religion but because I have felt a sense of insecurity, the sense that other groups are asking for representation when I don't personally feel represented, asking for opportunities when I don't feel that I've personally had opportunities.
When you feel that way it's really seductive to want to say "you know what you're not oppressed - there's not racism or sexism here - we're all oppressed and equal in the oppression we feel". It's not true though.
That's not a conclusion I've come to from analysis of the statistics that some groups are more discriminated against than other. It's a conclusion I've come to from accepting that I can't ever truly understand another person's life experiences. If someone else tells me something is important to them and I can't understand why then I just have to accept that it is and process it the best that I can.
I'm not surprised at all by the fact that it isn't being bought in droves by kids right now. It's a $300 system with little software right now, after all.
I am a little surprised by the discrepancy in gender, especially since my anecdotal evidence says otherwise. Although I think a big factor is that a lot of people that buy a Switch buy it for the whole family, rather than just one person like your typical handheld.
Best thread ever
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If you are to exclude Hispanics that identify as White, the number for White population is 61%.
I actually made the mistake of saying Asians are around 4%, its actually 5%, it went up from 2010. White people still make up the majority.
I think this is also a battle that affects White people because White people are getting a lot of blame lately. They are being accused of White privilege and having benefits. With the way things are set up White people are actually disadvantaged when getting into careers. With Quotas and Affirmative action programs that were made to help historically disadvantaged minorities, which was very useful in the past, has been corrupted to disadvantage whites, making it harder for them to get jobs.
Whites that are highly qualified for their position are often overlooked in favor of a less qualified minorities because they meet the affirmative action standards. They do this because they don't want to be accused of racism for not hiring a minority. They do this to avoid negative backlash, which can damage the companies reputation. Even if the minority is somewhat qualified, in some cases there could be someone more qualified for the position, but don't get hired because of Affirmative Action. Its sort of a Racism against whites, disadvantaging the historical majority.
@Ryu_Niiyama "No different than a racial minority being hated for the color of their skin. There is a specific trait that their attacker despises and attacks to demoralize, oppress and instill fear and they don't usually keep their attacks limited to members of those groups."
I want to make clear that Racism and Sexism are two different things, that arose from different evolutionary mechanism processes. Racism comes from the in-group/out-group hunter gather mechanisms, that are tribalistic and competitive in human nature. With Sexism, both sexes have always lived together, co-existing within their tribal groups. There was never a time when men and woman lived in separate tribes. Never a time to where men came in to colonize a seperate female society, since they were not separate from men, to enslave and/or eradicate all woman. There has never been a genocide of all men by woman, or all woman by men. This would be stupid because without woman the human race would end. There has been many examples though in History of genocides based on ethnic, racial, religious, and political differences. All based on tribalism.
With racism, for example of black people, White people assumed that Blacks were more dangerous, more violent, more criminal, more predatory, more sexually depraved than Whites. All of these considered negative traits, and all were used as excuses to justify their attacks and violence against blacks.
With Sexism against Woman, it assumes that Woman are more benign, more nurturing, more pure, more kind, more peaceful than Men. All are considered positive traits, and have been at times used as excuses from Men to justify offering Woman more protection, more support, and exceptions from punishment. You would have Men open a door, or take out a chair for a Woman. It has created a culture though that Woman weren't allowed as the same work as Men because of differences in gender. This doesn't excuse any violence towards Woman, but Sexism and Racism are totally different beasts.
"If that was the case there wouldn't be so many disproportionate instances of certain types of attacks against women (such as rape, the majority of which is still male perpetrated against female), women wouldn't have to fight for equality in treatment in society and female wouldn't be seen as derogatory by male culture still even in 2017."
Most Male rapists 60%-80%, have been sexually abused as kids by woman. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766112
Its true that most rape victims are girls, but 7 out of 10 rapes are from someone they knew, and is usually done in the victims home. The perpetrator was a relative, friend, and neighbor. You have more chance of being raped from someone you know, than some guy online trying to provoke you, who doesn't know where you live. Of course this doesn't excuse of someone being a jerk online.
In Juvenile Facilities 95% of all youth reported sexual misconduct that was from female staff. Females makes up 42% of staff. They made up slightly less than Men but committed the majority of sexual abuse. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf
More that 40% of domestic violence victims are men. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-d...
Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police. Men also don't want to be seen as unmanly and weak so they are more reluctant to bring it up. And Men have far fewer refugees to go to than Woman because no one takes violence against Men that seriously. In England and Wales there are 7,500 refugee shelters for Woman, and only 60 for Men, despite them making up a good chunk of domestic violence victims. Mainstream media makes a joke about Woman violence against Men so they don't see it as a problem.
Im not saying these things to lessen the seriousness of violence against Woman, but a good chunk of Men are also victims of violence too. And claims from some people that a huge resounding majority of targets of violence are Woman from Men, and not Men from Woman is false. Violence against Men is something that is cast aside, and they have no where to turn for help, because of the huge disparity of services for Men compared to Women.
The gaming community is often very toxic to females as well. It has gotten way better but it is still almost a masochistic hobby to have unless you straight up game alone. I refuse to voice chat game online for that reason.
There, I fixed it for you.
No. Don't do that. I no way said that gaming wasn't bad for males however, your "fix" merely shuts down discussion on the issue I highlighted. If I were a more timid woman I would feel that I don't have a right to speak on what I've seen and what other women have gone through in this hobby because of what we are. However I'm not so, I said what I said. I should be able to name the problem and not have my viewpoint immediately thrown out because I didn't use inclusive enough language. The next time you are hit on when it is unwanted (and despite you saying so), or cat called, or threatened with rape or death or you have someone demand that you send them pics of yourself naked or you are called names because of the reproductive organs you possess then I will concede that the toxicity to females in gaming is not biological sex specific.
I don't accept the "well it is a gathering of males" rebuttal either. Boys will be boys isn't a carte blanche excuse to be a jerk (or a creep or sexist or violent). For the males that don't indulge in such activities they should also not implicitly condone of those that do by their unwillingness to reprimand other males to keep themselves from being targets. The parts of male culture that is dismissive and predatory of females that is dismissive and hostile to any type of "weakness" (so that males that don't fit the machismo standard) can only be changed by males. We women can shout about it until the end of the world and eventually we hit a wall called "not all men". Males should demand better of themselves and other males; not to be PC police but because humans are supposedly rational creatures and we should choose to be better than base instinct.
In general I try not to "go there" here, a conditioned response in part to extreme responses and to dismissive ones like the one you gave. Which is telling in itself that I have to edit myself so much (and before anyone else reading this goes there, no I would not be calling for the end of all men or some such nonsense that had been made up to make feminism into a "scary thing" tm). I think that you are a pretty level headed guy so I am going to assume that you didn't intend it that way (if you did, shame on you) and I am going to leave it at that. However, please don't think that because we get along on this site that I will allow my words to be modified to make them more inclusive and to hide from the issue I originally stated; it is a straw man tactic. Acknowledging that gaming culture is toxic to women doesn't dismiss any toxicity to males. Don't move goal posts, you are more rational than that. If you don't agree with me fine, state that but don't implicitly dismiss what I said. Also yes I saw the winking smiley but you know as well as I do that people often use "it was a joke" to allow a back pedal when they say something offensive/aggressive/dismissive. Plus tone is hard to read in text.
Anyway, moving on to the rest of your comments. As far as the 12 year old, children are in a hurry to be what they think is adult. I can only speak to my experience but I think boys suffer from this mentality more than girls. I was never in a hurry to grow up...I had dreams of what I would do of course, but I never wanted to be more than what I am. I think my mentality is skewed however as my parents had me when they were in their mid and late thirties so they were more level headed (mostly...) so that influenced myself, so this is entirely anecdotal. I honestly feel that because gaming starts as a hobby from child hood and keeps a steady influx of kids plus the tribe mentality that seems to infuse the culture (in part because it has become more isolated even as it has become more social through voice chat and other internet communication...such as this forum) plus the fact that gaming is escapism means that there is less of a reason to act with decorum. For younger kids part of that is bad parenting (as you know I worked at gamestop in several different positions...kids steamroll over their parents), for older gamers that is imo poor personality combined with poor interpersonal skills and the false courage the anonymity of the internet brings. Most "trolls" don't act like that in real life...meaning somewhere they are being false. Sadly I feel it is the "real life persona" and not the "internet jerk" instead. "Fan" wars took a fun hobby and made it into a hostile, elitist cesspool. You have to like certain game genres, you have to buy certain systems, if you are certain sex you have games that you are supposed to like...and if you like those games you aren't really a gamer anyway, or the opposite as well. Take the monopoly reveal...half that thread was full of people yelling at others for wanting to play monopoly. Why? It is a game like anything else...and hasbro has made a MINT off of it. For all the games I play do you know what I am hoping for the most? A good shogi game and perhaps a port of Pure Chess (and VF6 but that is wishful thinking and self castigation). Yet some folks would laugh me right off the site because of that... and it makes no sense. If i didn't love games so much and the fun I have with friends locally I'd say screw it and move on, this is the only thing that I do that has this much conflict...and yes that includes all my martial arts training. Tossing someone to the ground or avoiding a sword is less stressful than dealing with fans in gaming.
Voice chat is a strange beast in general. I don't like mainly because people curse a lot in casual settings and while I totally admit I can curse like a sailor when angry I feel that if you resort to it in your basic communication that it is a sign of laziness (and idiocy quite frankly) and that you can't articulate your thoughts. I ramble enough as is I don't need to pick through f bombs to figure out what someone is saying. However again my upbringing (and my love of language) influences this...I have more in common with a person my parents age than with people my age. At the same time when done right it is a great way to communicate and make stronger friendships with people you may never see face to face...just like this forum for instance. However I've had enough change in conversations the second someone hears my voice to be disgusted with the whole thing. Also the games I do play online don't lend well to it anyway. What am I going to talk about while playing a fighting game?
I totally accept and acknowledge that focus groups attempting to capture the heterosexual female's gaze (and money) started the insertion of heterosexual romance in action oriented media such as movies and comics (I wasn't asserting that wasn't the source, apologies if I was unclear), but I don't feel it is manufactured that way now. Like I said the romances presented have a very male gaze and interest slant to them. Granted, I readily acknowledge I'm a poor judge since I don't know what heterosexual women are looking for in romance, but I feel like it can't be what we are seeing in movies an comics are worst than soap operas. However, like you said "welcome to earth"; I totally feel like an alien half the time anyway. I wonder if I'll find myself in a Kaguya-hime situation? Wake up and a bunch of women are at my door and they are like "hey sorry we accidentally left you here, come on let's go home". I don't personally think that I am a very empathetic woman and it is hard for me to "get" people (or to form emotional bonds with them)...I'm blunt (polite but still blunt as you likely noted above) and I try to be rational over emotional in general but at the same time I'm very, very loyal to those I do form bonds with. That may be why I like forums so much. People kind of blend together for me IRL (a sea of grey if you will) but it is easier for me to notice and discern others online. Don't get me wrong, I can interact just fine with others but...there is an emotional disconnect. INTJ personality. Take that as you will. This will likely require an edit and a boatload of commas but I have to get to work.
@Ryu_Niiyama Wow great post!
Im a philosophy student and want to do a master thesis on those sort of topics. Like not exactly feminism, but its a mixture. You know its still in the flow. Its also parts about psychology and tech illness.
I just randomly read your post, since i research several things and skimmed through. I hope i dont get misunderstood as im aware that im just a internet "stranger".
But the section about "alien" made me think. Ofc i dont know you or such, but i like speculative thinking. Is very important subtopic in my fields. But i feel did you ever think about it beeing a selffullfilling prophecy?
What i mean is if you deeply or truely believe in that "alien body or person picture" of yours. Don't you think you try it to provoke or get seen by others by your subconsciousness?
I mean i really like reasoning and arguments ( go figure why ) And to me you totally sound normal and your post is really well made and structured. Yes my posts are mostly abit chaotic and stream of consciousness!
Anyway i feel you also suffer the problem of "bubble" mentality. Don't get me wrong i got bi and homosexual friends and like to discuss with them. But sometimes i just feel both sides are quite biased, but yes im aware that practically i cant defend my argument, since im not in the same position and more an outside perspective. But its quite interesting topic and many evening can be spent on it.
I post rarely cause busy with work and stuff, but i feel your quite fruitful.
Also i think i saw some contradictories in the upper section where it was about "men dismissing your original standpoint" or them needing to help you solve the issue. I mean yes there is sexism on both sides, but speaking about female sexism i dont see why its less valid or solvable if only 1 side does state it or try to change it. I speak about your moral shaming argumant that only boys can change other boys and thats the only way to go. I mean i get where your coming from with the "tribe or sheep" mentality. But ultimatelly if you fight for a just or great cause, i think it shouldnt be relevant who or what does solve the problem. Im just speaking about intrinsically true stuff.
Eh sorry for the wall of text i hope some stream was understandable, anyway happy debating to you.
We might continue it if you wish so ^_^
Also i really dont know if pm stuff is a thing, not that pro user on NL anyway ...
I just love input
@FGPackers It would be nice if we could all come together for love of a shared hobby, however life doesn't work like that. If you read the article comments we have people dedicated to negativity like a religion. Also if you in any way show that you love this hobby that you joined a website in hopes of finding like minded people, you are branded a shill or what have you. I am not saying that voice chat shouldn't be allowed, as it does allow people that would never be able to game face to face to meet and enjoy gaming however, I for one will likely sit it out unless there is a friends only option. I refuse to waste my time being yelled at and verbally abused by someone I can't even see. I'll take my lumps in the dojo only, thanks. Messaging is bad enough. I had a person here go to my profile and find my PSN account and then leave me a three page rant of profanity. Never spoke to the person ever. You want to know what prompted it? I said I was going to buy a game. That was it. I didn't say anything negative, only that I would buy a game. Ugh I'm too old for this.
I totally get your reasoning. You are mature and you want to be effective in life. Thats just how i see it. Self defense is a very important thing and freetime from work fro hobbies is precious indeed.
But i feel , yes again just speculative, that you got burned in the wrong areas. Hey im not saying that the world is like a happy unicorn place where you should voice call with any stranger alike.
But recently i experimented with voice calling. And i feel its just a too powerful tool to completelly dismiss. Its exceptionall useful on a world trip for several months or years. I know this is a very special case and such, but even for smaller hobbies like gaming its really handy.
Also the voice chat performance and toxity of community always depends on the country / server / season / platform and ultimatelly game you play with.
For example take GTA5 online for computer. Yes it has voice chat and all social stuff. But yeah that game is about criminals and hoes, basically you get the toxcity or "roleplaying" you payed for.
But there are great games out there where voice chat really super enhance the experience by miles.
As an positive example i can give DST while solving the metheus webpuzzle while voice chatting with the partner / friend / fiancee of your choice.
Anyway i just hope you can experience those wonderful and great tools in a timely and relaxed environment. Its just a matter of luck and correct filtering
Dont let haters steal tools from you, dont give up too early! Sry im just too optimistic lol
edit: Also im specifically just replying to you. Because your arguments and reasoning and such i already heard from other bi / or L woman or girls and friends before. But they had certain different angles and points.
I feel your prospect is over dark and shadowy and isnt really fitting the situation in 2017.
2017 is a historical year for several different reasons.
@DizziParadise Aww, thank you! My family is pulling together, but we are all a bit bummed.
Meh, no reason to get upset about any responses. You know the line, the wall; just so long as we refuse to be silent and extend positive ki, that is all we can do. The rest is up to each individual person. A wonderful day to you!
I really
hate to do this comparison, but i hope you know "walls" never ended anything or made things better for humanity.
Just few easy brainstormed examples: iron wall from the udssr . Berlin wall in germany. The wall problem between north korea and south korea ( very important this year ).
The past trump wall problem in building a wall against those mexicans, for whatever reason.
What im trying to say is, yes everyone needs support in life and likes to be agreed upon with its peers or friends. But absolute walls in thinking will get you nowwhere and will never solve any problem. and that counts for BOTH sides of the wall whoever stands where and why.
You steppend into the commong fallacy for small or special interest groups. And PLEASE dont get offended i know that humanity consists of 50% of womans im not stupid due. What i mean by that statement is that i play devils advocate. Yes your opinion might be true and you try to convince people and all. But you wont get allies with your method. You are not interested on the true side after all those burned ashes battles. You argue for your emotions and supporters not because something is true you say, BUT because it looks like a lost cause for you and you got burned the one way or the other.
Again as you might see i like arguing and no i dont want to personal attack you. But i like analyzing rethorics and arguments especially when they seem so well thought out or give alot of source.
Thats just my 2 cents from an outside view. Why do you think 30% of female twitterers do hate speech towards other womans? Because that special interest group is cannibalising or suiciding itsself. With more hate or guilt trips you wont get more allies but LESS. And ultimatelly your cause will indeed end in an selffullfilling prophecy. And thats sad to see, really sad. It shouldnt happen. Especially people claiming to like reasoning or sharing arguments, they need to be open and want actual solutions.
Bias confirming or bubble petting aint solve any problems humankind might have present or in future.
sry for wall of text
edit: and yes my english is probably poor and hard to understand. apologies, but its not my major :/
@DizziParadise
Can you give examples for the worst of woman hating sites you personally found out in the half of decade?
I wonder if they changed over the time of 5 years or 10 years. Also interesting would be if they raise and fall like waves and get shut down eventually or if there is a "hive" which got a steady income.
Id be interested in their fallacies?
Im just curious about their debate culture. Even if its a broken culture.
Rhethoric is one of my sub primes. I hope i dont get misunderstood ...
edit: @DizziParadise also funny Anecdote the lead designer for bayonetta2 main protagonist was actually a woman, and she seemed pretty humourous about her design process. I saw an interview.
So im not sure if everyone would dismiss that protagonist ^^
@Ryu_Niiyama I had something similar happen on GameFAQs recently. I said I didn't care for a certain game, so a guy on there decided to sent a bunch of abusive-sounding messages and death threats on PSN. I reached out to him, asked him why he was behaving in such a manner, and he eventually opened up and told me that this behavior was his way of releasing pent-up frustration from a terrible family life. I got him to acknowledge that his strategy of abusing strangers online to relieve personal frustration was destructive and unproductive. He wanted me to add him as a friend by the end, so I did, because it made him happy and cost me nothing.
More often than not, reaching out to trolls has proven to be an effective strategy. For me, at least. Of course, some people can't be reasoned with. I remember talking with some wildly bigoted transphobe on youtube for days before I realized the person was so filled with hate and prejudice that no amount of discussion would ever sway him. Even if it fails, though, I think it's still important to engage with harmful viewpoints online, if only for the sake of impressionable onlookers who might be swayed by them.
But yeah, I agree, the pervasive, obsessive, hyperbolic negativity that seems to spread along online gaming communities like a toxic wildfire is annoying. It has been especially bad with regard to the Switch. Thankfully, the broader gaming community's enthusiastic reception of the console has shut down a lot of that negativity. It's still around, but not quite as loud.
I think i couldnt have said it better. Some got really impressive english skills.
Good post. You shouldn't hide things behind a wall of spoilers (or at least feel the need to) just because your post is long though. The race to make conversations as short as possible only ends up in one place (I'd say you can find it in the White Supremacist House but I understand they spend most of their time on the golf course).
As the father of 2 very young children I do worry about the online environment they'll be exposed to in the future. That's true for young Master StuTwo but especially for young Miss StuTwo because I can see just how much intimidating it is for women online.
The thing that's most frustrating about it is that it's clearly possible for the big companies to crack down on this or police it (it's called moderating. Yes it might cost them money but I think EA and Activision can afford it). Unfortunately they either don't understand the need to or simply don't want to. They'd rather have mini Milo Yiannopouloses in training spouting ill-formed sexist, racist and hugely offensive stuff buying and playing their games than risk upsetting a group that actually needs to be shown the importance of boundaries.
One of the things I'll always love Nintendo for is that they're willing to put out a game like Splatoon without voice chat. They know when they release it that they'll face a wave of complaints about how they're stuck in the past but at the same time it's the right thing to do and makes it a better experience for the majority of players.
I've spoken about it on here in the past but I think Nintendo actually understands what their audience actually wants from online (and is more creative in satisfying it) than most people give them credit for. I loved Super Mario Run's asynchronous online multiplayer for instance and the "message in a bottle" feature of Wind Waker HD was incredibly satisfying to me.
Woah woah woah wait. You are positive towards NO voice chat?
I really dont know if you realize that, but with that censorship or "save space" method your actually cementing the problem.
Censorship overpaints problem with bright colorful happy pink, but it wont solve the problem, never did either in the past ...
Sure maybe your daugthers may have a "innocent" childhood ( which is very unlikely in the day of interenet ), but the second they turn 18y or "mature" they will have to put up with all the crap the former generations didnt fix or leave to rott.
Yes i know im no parent and im pretty sure parenting is scary and very difficult. But you guys out there need to realize in this age you cant shield or "fence" anything anymore anywhere on this world.
The only sane and practical solution to this maybe grim conclusion is to fix the problematic parts and as fast as possible. You cant stop an avalanche once its rolling. But i guess that leads too far away.
People in usa really still don't understand that they are not living on a moon or an isolated country. That whole country got a collective nerve break down even more severe after 9/11, and still didnt realize that they need to fix and bring their stuff together really really quick.
I know internet hate speech is a global problem, but north americas time is running out. They failed at spring of 2017, but there is still time to change the tides ...
And no im not anti american or hate all usa people, i did a lenghty trip there with friends and wanted to see the chaotic vibes there with my own subjective experience. Its pretty grim and alot changed compared to 90ties etc ...
Online, unfortunately, is a damn mixed bag. As a woman, I've had nice experiences like this forum where you can comment freely and bad experiences, like a tech forum I browsed, in which they usually laughed at any woman's opinion.
Regarding voice chat.... I give a damn about it. Even though I speak English quite well, I'm not a native speaker, and it shows ( I can't speak so fast and I have some accent), and unfortunately, there's always some douche that rubs it in. So, games that work without voice chat are perfect for me.
@Stereoman A little mission for you, should you choose to accept it. Search Kotaku for 30 Days of Sexism. Read the article in full, particularly the comments she quotes. Then read the comments to the article. Then go to the YouTube channel of any male games journalist of your choice and read the comments. Compare and contrast.
Woah woah woah wait. You are positive towards NO voice chat?
Yes.
I really dont know if you realize that, but with that censorship or "save space" method your actually cementing the problem.
That's some really convoluted logic at play. It perfectly solves my problem because my problem is having to talk to or listen to people who I don't want to talk or listen to.
If someone is shouting ill-informed offensive stuff sat infront of a computer and I'm having to hear it then it's my problem. If they're shouting ill-informed offensive stuff sat infront of a computer and they have no audience no-one can hear it then it's their problem. At that point I'd recommend they see a doctor.
Censorship overpaints problem with bright colorful happy pink, but it wont solve the problem, never did either in the past ...
It's not censorship. It's about the control of the environment in which conversations happen and a recognition that it's not a free for all - that online places are public spaces and should be treated as such (and policed as such). You wouldn't run out into a public street and shout racist or sexist abuse at random passersby because it breaks both laws and social norms so it shouldn't be tolerated in the digital realm either.
Locking up people who do break social norms in the physical realm absolutely has worked in the past and continues to work.
Yes i know im no parent and im pretty sure parenting is scary and very difficult. But you guys out there need to realize in this age you cant shield or "fence" anything anymore anywhere on this world.
The only sane and practical solution to this maybe grim conclusion is to fix the problematic parts and as fast as possible. You cant stop an avalanche once its rolling. But i guess that leads too far away.
Being a parent isn't scary. It has its challenges but it's not rocket science.
In a thread where I've said many times though that I can't comment on what it must be like because I'm not a member of a given group I can say this: I had no idea beforehand what it would feel like to be a parent. My life view has changed in a number of subtle and unexpected ways. Things that I would have been indifferent to in the past are now incredibly important in ways and for reasons that were completely unpredictable.
You can't totally fence a child in and you can't control all of the influences they are exposed to but you can give them the tools to deal with things as they find them in the world. In the same way that you don't teach a child to swim by chucking them in the water and hoping for the best you shouldn't just give a child access to the internet and hope they only find "good" sites and have a good experience.
As a parent I'd like to see companies like Nintendo facilitate the process of curation and gatekeeping - not because I never want my children to venture on the other side of the gate but because it's something that I feel is very important and overlooked.
@StuTwo We shouldn't lock up people who "violate social norms." That's really dangerous and, dare I say, totalitarian thinking. Social norms encompass all sorts of behaviors, from people running out in the street screaming racial epithets to something relatively innocuous like facing the wall when you're riding in an elevator. All I'm getting from your post is that you want to punish the behavior of people you disagree with, which is fundamentally antithetical to the operation of a free society.
We have laws to protect people in public spaces for a reason, friend. Let's focus on actually enforcing those.
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