Topic: Switch almost entirely bought by dudes over the age of 20.

I would expect most launch sales will be dudes over 20, regardless of the brand or type of console.

@Ryu_Niiyama applauds thank you for that, so much. I am 47, female, and have been a gamer since my dad brought home a ZX Spectrum in 1982. So 35 years of my life. In that 35 years I have seen so much toxicity and hatred towards women from men (who are often hostile in a different way to other men also) excused by this "not all men" claptrap, and it needs calling out. It honestly needs calling out by men - because when a woman says it you always get the knee jerk reactions, the accusations of being a man hater and the derailment (a perfect example of which is the post you are replying to). I don't think that will happen to any great extent in my lifetime though. Most men don't see it as a problem, because it isn't a problem for them. If toxicity is a problem for them, they will discuss it only insofar as it pertains to them and completely fail to acknowledge or even notice how pervasive and downright awful it is for women (or, in most cases, anyone other than their own self).

I've never wanted to play online games, MMOs, voice chat. I didn't even want to seek out anyone to trade Pokemon with back in the Red/Blue days (not that there would have been any out there for me - I was 28 at the time and hardly the target demographic). While NL is generally "safe" (edit, although see the comments on the article about the Zelda voice actress, some of which are only a degree or two above "nice norks"), I have been to other gaming sites and they are often extremely hostile places, particularly to women. It doesn't seem to have gotten any better in the last 20-odd years I've been on the internet, either. When I was a kid, there was only one other girl in my school I knew was a gamer. The computer room at school (BBC computers, those were the days!) was always filled with boys, girls were not welcome. You had to queue due to there always being more people wanting to use them than computers available, and girls were always conveniently "forgotten" when it was their turn. That's if they'd managed to stay in the room long enough to get to their turn. I was treated as being weird because I liked games and tech stuff generally. So I basically learned not to bother talking about it.

The games I played in the late 80s/early 90s were mostly adventure games - Simon the Sorcerer, Grim Fandango, Loom, Beneath a Steel Sky. The only one of those that was aimed at the female demographic that I remember was The Perils of Rosella, which I adored (possibly because it was the only game I'd ever played that had a relatable, likeable female character who wasn't only in the game to look pretty and be rescued by some bloke with a sword every five minutes). As far as I know that hasn't been repeated, in 25-odd years. Oh there have been plenty of games "aimed at women" but those aren't games I want to play, mostly. Cooking Mama 8 (or whatever number they've got to now)? No thanks.

And to the fellas reading this - how many of you would play as Zelda to rescue Link? Maybe for one game, but for an entire series I doubt you would. How about Princess Peach rescuing Mario every game? Switch the genders for every game you've ever played. Now imagine that the reality of your hobby is that virtually every single game has the gender you are being rescued by the gender you are not, and the gender you are is nearly always there only as something to look pretty and be the "reward". Every.Single.Game. The games that do have your gender as the main protagonist are often cheap, derivative, passive games, usually for kids. And then add onto that being talked down at, patronised, ignored, threatened, called names, having everything you write or say being deliberately misunderstood or derailed, every time you go into any community for your hobby - where you can tell by interactions between other people, before you even post a word, that you won't be welcome and possibly won't be safe. Is it any wonder that women tend to keep quiet?

I don't know how much of a closed shop the games development industry is for women these days - but since every time I discover that a dev is female (extremely rare) I am surprised, my guess is that women still aren't that welcome in dev. Considering the hoops they have to jump through and the abuse they have to take to even get the education required for the job, I'm not surprised. It's 2017, and I don't think we've moved on much from 1987. Gaming is still for the boys, games are still mostly written for and by men, well developed female characters are still rare, female devs are still rare, games aimed at or written for women are still mostly childish shovelware. Where is 2017's gaming answer to Xena Warrior Princess?

LOL i misunderstood entirely. I thought you meant no voice chat at all. Sorry, my bad

By the way you're kind of right on this one, i had bad experiences by myself, especially playing MMOs. That's why i got the "mindset" i got today. Even real life teached me a lot on this. In 2017 that's really, really, really bad.

@Ryu_Niiyama Marry Meeee! Ha ha ha, someone actually told you that?

Get back to the kitchen! You should've said.
"Ok, and i'll make you and give you a Knuckle Sandwich."

In my case, there are a myriad of reasons why I don't have a Switch yet. The strongest reasons however are that I'm more than occupied with my current systems and their libraries (late Wii U adopter here, and I'm STILL buying DS games, lol) and that I tend to plan out big purchases. In the latter case, I'm trying to save up for some big electronic and non-electronic purchases.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that's another case where I believe the situation is more dependent on personality.

This is actually a great summary of why I gravitated back towards single player games after high school. I have interacted with some genuinely nice, level-headed people online, whether on games or forums. However, you'll always have foul characters who use the general anonymity of the internet as a mask to troll or vent their frustrations.

Overall I like the NL community (way better than the overall cesspool that IGN has become since I left it), but the recent influx of new users thanks to the Switch launch has attracted some contentious people. I've had to closely proofread some rebuttals of mine because my teeth were set on edge.

@Ralizah Well I do agree that there is anger behind anger and of course feeding negative ki only makes it more pervasive. Good on you for not doing so. However I am not that person that has enough empathy to help a jerk realize they are being a jerk. I'll call out someone I consider a friend or a fond acquaintance (as you have seen me do with NES and you and I have gone back and forth a few times as well...my apologies for any convos I've left hanging...I'm simply swamped, not trying to avoid discourse) but in general one must want to change, I feel. Using an hyperbolic situation I'm not going to march into a KKK meeting and ask them why they want to kill me. The danger simply outweighs the risk of helping someone see beyond their anger. But honestly confronting some random person from one convo (actually them reading something I posted and going nuts) is just as fantastical to me. Why would I engage with a keyboard angry person? Especially now that the fun activity of the day is to dox women and threaten them with that. Especially since I am likely too forthcoming as is about who I am (can't help it, if you met me in person you would totally be like "hey Ryu you are exactly the way you are online") I can't be an activist...I don't have the energy or the empathy to do so. I do try to present a rational viewpoint and to extend positive ki, to show by example but that is all I can do.

It is strange, I feel like gaming should be one of the easiest ways to get along. After all that is the most basic thing kids do...play. It is something that short of an abusive childhood we all have in common. Doesn't matter how we play we all know what it feels like. Yet, I am constantly disappointed. I am grateful for NL in general though. I've met some pretty chill people that have been willing to read my walls of text.

Wall of text so hiding behind spoilers.

@DizziParadise it does appear to be getting better in some ways, as a Dad to two girls that love games I see all the friends that come round share that love too.

I hope this continues into teenage years, if so it can only help to bring a larger pool of devs.

@Ryu_Niiyama I'll join you in being an NL-er that everyone wants to shut up or be more concise (but seriously, never shut up. Your posts are one of the highlights of this place). Yeah, I think NES is generally a good guy, and I don't mean that negatively at all. But that invalidation/derailment seems to be endemic, and I too don't doubt that he didn't even realise that's what he did. Hopefully he's a good enough guy to read what you actually wrote and not make assumptions about what you meant - and think about it.

Funnily enough, the husband and I had a similar argument about female game protagonists last night, and he brought up the exact same characters. Bayonetta, Lara Croft, etc. These are the exceptions that prove the rule (although in most cases they aren't exceptions at all, they are, as you say either gender swap or deeply sexist, and thus prove the rule even further). Hubby likes the boobies as much as (probably more than) the next hetero guy, but even he was a bit squicked by Senran Kagura. He's currently playing DQ8, and while he appreciates the costumes and the puff puff on some levels, he can also see how that reduces female characters to two dimensional and sexual in a way that male characters almost never are, and how it can push female gamers away.

I love that you're a fighting game fan. I am not - although I think ARMS might change my mind on that one. We had so much fun at the Hammersmith event playing that (and I kicked hubby's ass as well, so maybe I'm not as bad at the reaction/timing thing as I thought?). ARMS also has at least one female character who isn't at all sexualised, even Ribbon Girl doesn't appear to be overtly sexual. It's refreshing in that sense, but also just a lot of fun to play. Generally, female characters in fighting games have armour/costumes to enhance their assets, rather than protect them. I know games are supposed to be an escape from reality, but when every female is mostly just eye candy it gets a bit off-putting. ARMS looks like a truly fun antidote to that.

I've always thought I would never be accepted as a "real" gamer, because I'm not into fighting games or shooters, I'm bad at platformers and prefer puzzles and RPGs, anything story driven really that doesn't constantly require split-second timing and button mashing. The amount of time I've put into Zelda though (over 250 hours for BotW) would suggest maybe I am... I even converted hubby, who was originally a PS gamer brought up on arcades, to Nintendo. He used to think (like many people do) that Nintendo was for kids. Then he met me, and the DS and the Wii, and DQ9 and Bravely and Zelda, and now the PS is gathering dust and he is inseparable from his 3DS. Fortunately for me, I didn't have brothers. My dad is an engineer and got the Spectrum for his daughters to play on and learn a bit about computers, so I actually have him to thank for this hobby, that he doesn't really understand (both he and my mum play hidden object games, as do I, but that's the extent of it for them). I was lucky with my parents, who never pushed me into "girl" things and were happy to get me "boy" stuff if I wanted it and they could afford it. I can do plumbing and minor electrical stuff and home decorating (including wallpaper) and could strip a bicycle down and rebuild it when I was 14, because my dad taught me. Not trying to be like a man, just being me. And men who don't want a girlfriend who can kick his ass in MK or SF or whatever, they are just revealing their nature early enough that she can pass him right by. Hubby loves that I'm a gamer and into F1 and rugby and heavy metal and can put up wallpaper and fix a leaky pipe. Took me a long time to find him though...

It's going to be interesting to see how STEM progresses for women in the next decade or two. My daughter wants to be a scientist (no particular field as yet, she's only 7). She's bright and clever and quick to learn (and loves her 2DS and playing Snipper Clips with me or watching me play Zelda). To a large extent she's already a scientist, experimenting and creating and having a lot of fun while doing so. When it gets more formal and she comes up against the mansplainers and the glass ceiling (brick wall and caltrops, more like), we'll see. I've got her back and so does her dad, hopefully that and her own strength will be enough for her to be able to do what she wants to do and what she's capable of doing. Funny story about her - she did a hook a duck at the weekend, and as we always do we took her around the stall for her to choose her prize. She ignored the knock off Barbies (her usual choice) and the stuffies and the vanity sets and chose a sword. With a green scabbard. One of my proudest moments as a mother. Not because there's anything bad about knock off Barbies and vanity sets and so on, but because she was able to choose what she really wanted without feeling pressured into only wanting "girlie" things. Obviously all that watching me play Zelda has rubbed off on her!

As regards women being misogynists, certainly many of them are. It's not that surprising when you think about it though. Not conforming can mean a lot of trouble, a lot of pain, and even death. It's internalised so young, that fear of being different, that most people don't ever even think about it. And when it gets challenged, the fear kicks in. Know your place, keep to it and like it, or get beat up. Or doxxed or threatened or raped or ostracised or or or... Men do have this too, of course, "boys don't cry" being the most obvious, and that fact is nearly always the rebuttal to any discussion about women's experience. Misogyny hurts both (all) genders, but we start untangling it with discussions about the worst of it.

And with that wall of text, I am off. I have spreadsheets and graphs to wrestle with today, which I am majorly looking forward to since I don't often get to flex my Excel muscles anymore. And coffee. And maybe a quick search for Xena on DVD. I miss her.

@mav-i-am I love that your daughters have peers (and a dad!) who are into games too. That's been one of the hardest things for my daughter to deal with, that most of her peers aren't into games at all. One girl friend has a DSi, one boy friend has a 3DS (which he doesn't play, preferring his PS4) and that's about it. Even my son (now 19 and about to embark on a Computer Science/Video Game course at Uni) never had many rl friends who were gamers. His gaming friends are all online, all male, and as far afield as Estonia and Oregon. Both of my kids of course have parents who are gamers, which helps, but it was sad that the only person my son could trade Pokemon with back in the day was his mother...

You're doing your bit for women in gaming, right now. You are validating your daughters and your daughters friends' interests, and that matters so much. Because even if none of them eventually go on to be devs themselves, for whatever reason, that validation will spread out from them. As an example of what I'm trying to say, take music. Music in video games has often been amazing. It took the validation of all those people voting for Aerith's theme in the Classic FM Hall of Fame to get video game music recognised as valuable by the mainstream. The discussion has been going on about that ever since, and Classic FM plays video game music fairly frequently now. So, in the same way, your daughters, and their friends, as consumers at the very least and therefore stakeholders, validated by you, will keep this discussion about the value of women in gaming going. And that can only be a good thing.

I'm not sure I expressed what I mean in an understandable way there, but I hope you get what I'm talking about. I really need that coffee!

@DizziParadise Dad buying a Switch was very cool for them, especially as I consider it to be ours as a family.

In my house I say many times, there are no boys things or girls things, just things - I hate anyone trying to tell them or me what they can or cannot do.

I get what you are talking about, totally.

I bought mine for me and my boyfriend. Be to play single player games and we for multiplayer on trips out. But then we are both males over 20 so I guess we fit the match.

But then, my consoles are used by over 30 people each month so I am really outside of the demographic lol

My sister bought ours, and she's like 22. The results aren't surprising honestly. I'd imagine a good chunk of those people were the Nintendo faithful nerds and probably parents buying consoles for their themselves and their family. It'd make sense.

There's in fact a huge gap between the buyer and the user. Well, not always, but you get the idea.

Good post. You shouldn't hide things behind a wall of spoilers (or at least feel the need to) just because your post is long though. The race to make conversations as short as possible only ends up in one place (I'd say you can find it in the White Supremacist House but I understand they spend most of their time on the golf course).

As the father of 2 very young children I do worry about the online environment they'll be exposed to in the future. That's true for young Master StuTwo but especially for young Miss StuTwo because I can see just how much intimidating it is for women online.

The thing that's most frustrating about it is that it's clearly possible for the big companies to crack down on this or police it (it's called moderating. Yes it might cost them money but I think EA and Activision can afford it). Unfortunately they either don't understand the need to or simply don't want to. They'd rather have mini Milo Yiannopouloses in training spouting ill-formed sexist, racist and hugely offensive stuff buying and playing their games than risk upsetting a group that actually needs to be shown the importance of boundaries.

One of the things I'll always love Nintendo for is that they're willing to put out a game like Splatoon without voice chat. They know when they release it that they'll face a wave of complaints about how they're stuck in the past but at the same time it's the right thing to do and makes it a better experience for the majority of players.

I've spoken about it on here in the past but I think Nintendo actually understands what their audience actually wants from online (and is more creative in satisfying it) than most people give them credit for. I loved Super Mario Run's asynchronous online multiplayer for instance and the "message in a bottle" feature of Wind Waker HD was incredibly satisfying to me.

@Ryu_Niiyama Like I said to Thanos the other day, if you don't tag me, I don't know you replied

Well my main response to what you said is, you've chatted with me enough here to recognize my tone and humor both in conversation with you, others, and responses to the articles themselves. You've recognized that tone and humor often. Yet on this topic you assume some sort of intentional/unintentional invalidation of your argument to the point that you had to qualify it by saying that the wink may or may not have been meant as humor or a backpedal. Obviously that's a hot button issue for you in particular, and hopefully you know I was intending humor (and specifically I'll clarify the point below).

My part in the conversation wasn't about "abuse of women in gaming cultures" I was commenting mostly on the sociological topic of women gravitating/not gravitating toward gaming and other types of hobbies and possible reasons for that, including, but not limited to, the culture surrounding it. And what I meant by the strike-through point was generally the assumption that gaming culture is toxic expressly toward women is a flawed (but common) conclusion. It is simply toxic, full stop. That IS a problem. Not because it's an assumption that your statement invalidated the toxicity to men, but because it's looking at a symptom not a cause, no matter how common an opinion that may be. Do the sources of said toxicity apply gender-specific toxicity when dealing with women? Sure. Do they do it because they're exclusively toxic when in the presence of women? No. They do it because they're simply toxic, and they tailor their toxicity in whatever manner of delivery generates the greatest effect for their amusement. They know gender specific harassment will upset, easily and often, and therefore they use that. Because it works. Look at your own response to me to see just how well it works! You may respond in a bold, assertive way, but it obviously upsets you greatly for you to have such a change of your usual character simply at a single response like that that MAY hint of something you assume COULD be belittlement in a response that explicitly DIDN'T treat you in any way differently than anyone else! Imagine if I were genuinely one of those toxic trolls how I would be using that to upset you and harass you and probably get you to either ban me or leave the site. You'd have handed me a perfect weapon, and I wasn't even arguing with you

The same toxic individuals are certainly no less toxic to males, or at least no more tolerable. The only difference is they generally don't have AS immediately offensive a tool to use broadly against other males unless they can prod to find something personal that offends. They try. But they can't get the immediate result of such effective intimidation as when using gender, so it's not as apparent. My point was, if you look at the "toxicity" as a gender issue, you will never get anywhere with it...the problem will remain unchanged, because it's not really about a gender issue, just a gender result (or partial result.) It's like looking at a flooding street after a dam breaks and saying "oh, there's the problem the street's on a hill so it all goes this way!" ignoring the giant broken dam as the actual problem, the hill just funnels the problem mostly in a particular direction The ROOT problem is that gaming and the internet at large seems to be a gathering place for the basest of individuals who amuse themselves through the intimidation of others. The symptom is that it that women are the most apparent targets because they have proven to be the easiest targets that can be the most strongly intimidated/upset by fairly broad, generalized attacks that require no particular fishing for personal details to attack and can be applied categorically. An easy method of amusement for those so amused. Of course that personality type is something you don't see in real life half as often as online and in gaming. Which comes back to: fixing the problem that the hobby/medium becomes a swamp is the real issue. Who it chooses to target primarily is a symptom.

Of course that's observation, and sitting back and observing the whats, whys, and hows of things (but never finding solutions) is something I have a knack for. I suppose I'm a philosopher at heart. Though philosophers always die penniless and alone, so that's not always a good thing

Technically I probably didn't need a text wall to clarify that, but by now we all know who's in the circle of verbosity here is so...oh well

And to clarify one other point, I never defended anything of the sort with a "boys will be boys" or "gathering of males" defense. I don't believe in that any more than you do. I was, again, talking sociologically at possible causes of the result, not reasons to desire the result. If the core component of gaming were in fact adolescent females with the same toxic mindset, the result would be somewhat different (though still not necessarily less toxic for women, as even women of that mindset tend to target other women first.)

You can't teach low brow toxic people how to better pretend to not be would-be rapists, thugs, and pedos and expect the environment to change if everyone knows the only difference is the would-be rapists, thugs, and pedos are now better at pretending they aren't. The REAL problem is, and always has been, why is it so filled with them to begin with?

And that leads to more unpleasant questions and self-analysis about the hobby I suppose and probably ends up with answers that makes us feel worse about ourselves for liking the hobby to begin with if it is something so attractive to such a majority of that sort of people (and people that seem to have severe emotional issues of various levels.) Are we them? Now there's an unpleasant question.

Like I said, philosopher at heart.

Now, for my part I'm not really into that topic at large. You're pretty much the only person I'd actually bother discussing it with at all because you're one of the few people that actually engages in conversation rather than ranting politically correct talking point sheets and shouting down the opposition. So it's more interesting discussing it with you, but, still, your response to me, while I understand why you'd be quick to react that way, just epitomizes why I avoid anything that crosses into the political on an internet forum. If an otherwise benign comment about broader scope with someone you have a good rapport with can yield that response, what value can the discussions have at all? So we all just ignore everything and communicate in measured statements Mini-True would approve of. Which probably adds to the problems.

And for the record I don't even know what "doxing" is! I see it mentioned on every article ever written about the topic, and frankly I'm to terrified to try googling it

NOW, that aside, and hopefully cleared up, I'll post later with a different text wall in response to the rest of your response

@Ryu_Niiyama Like you, I think I can't relate much to that mentality of racing to be what is "adult" when that age, so it's a bit alien to me. But you're probably right about the hobby starting from childhood, and the tribe mentality, though I honestly haven't seen many hobbies (and professions) that DON'T end up dominated by tribe mentality. I think it's pretty standard human nature in all areas, so I'm not sure if that plays into gaming in any specific way. How do you you think gaming has become more isolated despite being more social? That's an interesting idea.

(Apologies if I'm zipping from topic to topic, I'm trying to churn through it all on little time so I don't forget to get back to it like about 10 other conversations with various people (I seriously will get back to that audio/music conversation...one day!))

I agree that the "trolls" not acting like that in real life are being fake IRL and real online....which is actually markedly disturbing.

Fan wars...well...I remember back in the NES days, the Sega kids were the cool kids, Nintendo kids liked kiddie games, GameBoys were for dorks, etc. etc. Are the fan wars today any worse beyond the fact that grown adults participate and the culture in general has degraded beyond the walls of gaming? The internet certainly makes it SEEM that way I suppose. Or at least puts us into more direct contact with the jerks more often.

Haha, Monopoly....well....speaking of fan wars...I'm not sure the backlash was REALLY about people hating on Monopoly. It was mostly people hating on Nintendo, and Ubi, and the fact that that's what one of the only 3 AAA devs that seem to mater was bringing to Switch instead of Far Cry and Watch Dogs. If that was announced next to Far Cry and WD, I'm not sure many would have posted in that thread at all let alone trashed it so much. It was just another excuse for "Nintendoomed" IMO. (Bingo card at the ready!) Heck I was a bit stunned and annoyed at Ubi doing that while they couldn't even get 4 year old WiiU's Rayman out the door in a timely fashion! That and board game type games are generally for some reason frowned upon in gaming communities. I'm probably guilty of that myself. I've played my share of digital boardgames (Clue on SNES FTW) but when you enjoy exploring the surreal, it does seem like a downer. Then again, when you grew up with NES games, board games sometimes felt more realistic than the grand adventures represented by blobs, so maybe it's something to do with the Playstation generation.

Voice chat. Honestly the obscenity is the least of my worries. That's a symptom of the broader culture as well. Look at TV, or film....actually, no, don't....I haven't in years It's to the point that even BOOKS have dialog like that regularly! It's It's a reflection of the decay of civilization more than anything.....probably a good enough reason for me to continue avoiding online and voice in general (and why I'm so so happy Nintendo gave the public the finger with voice chat again ) I'd rather be removed from that "culture" in my entertainment time rather than subjected to it!

" What am I going to talk about while playing a fighting game?"

Aren't you supposed to say things like 'totally radical' and 'whoa, tubular!'. Fighting games will always be under the neon in my mind

To be fair, I haven't been to the movies in like a decade, I haven't watched TV more than a few hours a year in longer than that. I have a gaming backlog to work through, no time for frivolities And I don't miss it. So I'm VERY out of touch with what most "modern" moving picture shows are like. it may have gotten worse since I last looked. I usually can't stand the 20 minutes I might accidentally see when I do stumble into it. You could be right. Last I checked, it was certainly at least an attempt at making every move a "chick flick" whether it worked or not. Action movies and comic movies are probably the worst examples I'd guess. Geared mostly for men and trying to make it at best tolerable to women, and probably a heavy slant toward the adolescent persuasion of both. IMO the included "romance" is hopefully appealing to women, since it's generally not appealing to men who find it generally pandering to the "click flick" audience and would rather have it out of their action flick, and if women don't find it very appealing either then it appeals to no one. Given the decline in ticket sales, we can guess

You guys must love bayonetta then.

Sorry I don't have much to add, but this is an excellent post. It's like street harassment and catcalls. It does happen to men - the culprits sometimes male, sometimes female. What they always have in common is that they are unpleasant individuals - whether they are sexist is a secondary matter.

@Ryu_Niiyama: Thankfully the abuse I've suffered in MMOs like WoW has had nothing to do with my gender. Usually that has more to do with people abusing the kick tool in dungeons, rude comments in general (a group I was in was more than happy to kick a hunter for intentionally pulling mobs and bad-mouthing the tank when he was warned), and my lack of interest in heirloom use. I play the game very casually and am not even subscribing at the moment (thus I can only play characters up to level 20), plus my laptop is getting to an age where it can't handle medium-end games like WoW.