Oh and let's keep talking about the GameCube gen as if it's an example of what I'm talking about. You know, making it easy for third parties to port their games. Despite the fact that I'm talking x86 for NX and a similar amount of GPU horsepower to the also x86 based competition. When the GC gen was MIPS, x86 and PPC with huge variations in horsepower....
You talked about how 3rd Party wants to make big bucks and I said how the Wii and Wii U made it difficult to port...
You wanted to talk about the "difficulty" of video game development for third-party developers on the Wii U. From the artistry standpoint, there is no such thing. Developers can make (and have made) great video games on the Wii U.
Proof you have no idea what you're talking about. When we talk about making development easy the "art" has nothing to do with it. It's almost as if you haven't understood any of the points anyone has made. That you think the difference between the Wii U and PS4 have been purely user differences.
I guess that also explains why you think the GameCube is a valid example of what we're saying Nintendo should do. Ignoring entirely the fact that no platform in that generation was even remotely similar. Which was reflected in the lack of and general delay of multiplatform releases. Something that doesn't exist between PS4 and XBone. A problem which is the ONLY reason I'm talking about a "competitive NX"
@Project_Dolphin
What explanation? You've been doing nothing but rubbing your ego in this thread. Pulling others down whenever they dare to disagree. Even when they agree.
Again, all I said was "the NX could have specs similar to the PS4. Third party support should follow and that'd be a good thing". That's it. Nothing more. What is there to disagree about? At one point you even said the NX should match the PS4!
You've just been digging for too long to stop now. That's all this current tantrum is about.
Nintendo would probably also rather fail with the Nintendo-only box than to succeed with the generic "mature AAA"/EA sports box.
As for making it easier for third-party developers, the last Nintendo system that was a bit difficult to develop for was the Nintendo 64. The Wii and Wii U aren't difficult to develop for
Just quoting some of this nonsense so it is even more visible to lurkers
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An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions
So we're still in the debates about whether a Nintendo + 3rd party box would sell?
Well I think it's possible but only if these things are done:
1. NX version of 3rd party games are at least on par with XB1/PS4 (that means the full game with all DLC purchasable on time and the game runs at least as well as the other versions).
2. Hardware bundles so for example if NX instead released in the holiday season then you'd have your NX bundles with games like the newest FIFA, Madden and Battlefield (using EA as an example).
3. The console's online services are at least up to par with XB1/PS4 so that means stuff like purchases attached to account rather than console, downloads don't take several hours just to download a <10GB file, proper voice chat system both in and out of games (game chat AND party chat!), significant sales on 3rd party games, etc.
4. Timed exclusive deals. Yes stuff like how CoD DLC comes to PS4 first with a month exclusivity or how Rise of the Tomb Raider has 1 year exclusivity for XB1.
5. Continue with trying to get fully exclusive 3rd party games like how the Wii U got Lego City Undercover, The Wonderful 101 and Bayonetta 2.
There's some other things that I can't think of right now so that'll do for the time being.
@GrailUK has a huge point though and that's the reality why a Nintendo + 3rd party box would probably harm Nintendo more than help. The whole concept of where do the console creators get most of their profit from. For Microsoft and Sony, that's via online subscriptions (XBL Gold and PS+) whereas for Nintendo it's via Nintendo software sales so arguably 1st party software sales are the most important for Nintendo to succeed with NX.
So in short I see Nintendo using non-gaming things like mobile, movies, theme parks and health to try and bring back the blue ocean of the DS/Wii era.
@Grumblevolcano
Platform holders also get quite a bit of money from licencing fees. So if people are buying a game on PS4, PC or XBOne that they could have been buying on NX? That's money Nintendo is not getting. There's also the fact that it's hard to sell software, first party or otherwise, if people don't have the console itself. And the way to get people to buy the console is to have content. A huge chunk of which is from third parties who release on as many platforms as possible.
The less content the NX gets, regardless of where it's from, the less attractive the system is. Which means a lower install base. Which means less software sales both first party and third party.
Getting third parties back may be important for the long term future of Nintendo consoles, but I wouldn't expect it to have a big impact on NX, not when it's 3 years behind the competition in install base.
You guys had me at blood and semen.
What better way to celebrate than firing something out of the pipe?
Getting third parties back may be important for the long term future of Nintendo consoles, but I wouldn't expect it to have a big impact on NX, not when it's 3 years behind the competition in install base.
This is of course assuming we're not moving towards a more of a mobile style model for consoles. Which is what the PS4 Neo could easily be the start of. If it's a model where we get refreshes every 3 years and the first model starts to get less support after 6 years or so? You will eventually get to a point where what sold how many units half a decade ago doesn't matter as much. Not unlike how it is with phones and tablets.
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An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions
@skywake It feels like a lose-lose situation whatever Nintendo does. Attachment rate is rather poor for XB1 and PS4 first party games with that partly being because of the 3rd party games like CoD, Battlefield, FIFA, etc. So then you start getting into questions like "Why buy Zelda NX when you can buy Witcher 3 with all expansions instead?".
@Grumblevolcano
I think it's a bit of both. There are always going to be people who buy the console and only get it for the third party content. So that's definitely part of the reason why relatively speaking first party content does better on Nintendo's platforms where there's less competition. But I think the bigger reason is the simple fact that Nintendo produces more games while maintaining a high level of quality.
And that'd be a useless claim without data. So here's the average of metacritic's publisher rankings for the last three years. Yes this is for games published not just games developed but it's close enough:
Nintendo: ~33 unique titles, ~74%
Sony: ~29 unique titles, ~72%
Microsoft: ~18 unique titles, ~73%
If NX does end up having Nvidia tech, I won't be surprised, however, I still think the CPU / GPU chip will be from....
AMD is AMD, but under them are: ATI (obviously), and from long before the AMD-ATI merger, ATI acquired ArtX, the startup with engineers who broke away from SGI, ArtX designed the Flipper GPU for GameCube, which was re-used in Wii, but with a 50% clockspeed increase.
Real3D, another startup, was a Lockheed Martin company. Real3D partnered with Intel on the i740 graphics which Intel used in their motherboards in the late 90s, early 2000s. More importantly, Real3D designed graphics technology for SEGA's arcade hardware (the Model 3 board used in Virtua Vighter 3 and Daytona USA 2 among others). Previously, an earlier form of the Real3D technology had been designed into the Sega Model 2 board under Martin Marietta and a long history of military flight and tank simulators under General Electric Aerospace.
The only other company in that same field of 3D graphics for government/military/industrial 3D simulators was Evans & Sutherland.
Point, is all of todays 3D graphics hardware for consoles and PCs, stems from a handful of companies that specialized in 3D graphics, namely E&S, SGI and LM/Rea3D. The vast majority of their engineers and IP/ 3D tech patents are owned by AMD, Nvidia and Intel.
Please excuse me for going way off topic from the Nintendo NX, but most of today's gaming platforms, outside of iPhone/IOS devices and Android, have benefited from, or wouldn't have been possible without SGI and Real3D, most of whos engineers work at Nvidia and AMD today. Nintendo's last 4 consoles (N64, GameCube, Wii and WiiU) all certainly have. But not Nintendo's handhelds that do 3D polygon graphics, the DS and 3DS families.
For the first time, the NX handheld most likely will.
When we talk about making development easy the "art" has nothing to do with it.
"However, you want to talk about making money, so I actually understand your argument from that standpoint, since the "teen or mature AAA" video games are currently the most popular video games."
I'm pretty sure I typed that already. Funny, I actually conceded a point about video game development to @DefHalan, and you still found a way to ignore what I said. I told you that you don't read.
Do other posters have to wonder why I'm not interested in discussing this with you any further?
If you aren't gonna be polite please leave. No one needs that here.
When we talk about making development easy the "art" has nothing to do with it.
"However, you want to talk about making money, so I actually understand your argument from that standpoint, since the "teen or mature AAA" video games are currently the most popular video games."
I'm pretty sure I typed that already. Funny, I actually conceded a point about video game development to @DefHalan, and you still found a way to ignore what I said. I told you that you don't read.
I didn't ignore what you said because you didn't even concede the point @DefHalan was making. You created a new point that was your own and agreed with that. The discussion from the start has been about the need for the NX to be similar to its competition in terms of architecture and horsepower. When we talk about making NX easier for developers to port their games? That's the point we're making and it's pretty much the only point we've been making. Here's the full quote from @DefHalan again just to prove that point
@Project_Dolphin you didn't address anything I said. You talked about how 3rd Party wants to make big bucks and I said how the Wii and Wii U made it difficult to port, it would cost more than they would make. Having hardware similar to PS4/XB1 would make it easier to port, so easier to make money.
When you conceded your own point? You started by making a counter-point about how the art can translate. Then you said that of course money is an issue because developers aren't going to port to a console that lacks the audience. That's not conceding the point. That's completely misunderstanding the argument. The fact that you didn't say anything about the development side of things at all is proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. Either that or you're being deliberately ignorant in order to stay "correct". To quote the full post of mine you half quoted as proof that I did read your post:
Proof you have no idea what you're talking about. When we talk about making development easy the "art" has nothing to do with it. It's almost as if you haven't understood any of the points anyone has made. That you think the difference between the Wii U and PS4 have been purely user differences.
@Project_Dolphin
You are still yet to understand the original argument. You were the one who turned this into a debate about whether "Nintendo gamers" wanted "teen or mature AAA video games". The original post wasn't really about that at all. We just assumed that more games on the NX is going to be a good thing for the NX. Whether that's games like CoD, GTA, Rocket League or Final Fantasy. More content = bigger audience. I would have assumed that was a fair assumption to make.
The post wasn't about whether or not the lack of third parties was an issue. The post was about how to resolve that issue. Which is why from the start I've been talking about how the NX could/should reduce the hardware gap. A point you choose not to discuss despite at one point seeming to agree with. Instead you choose to constantly talk about how people who buy third party games are an entirely different species who will never be interested in Nintendo. As if that was the point up for debate.
So if I don't respond in the way you wish it's not because I can't read. It's because you're perpetually beside the point. If I've made any mistakes in this thread it would be the fact that I bothered to entertain your strawmen.
@Project_Dolphin
"high-budget, crappy or overrated, and PC-like "teen or mature AAA" video game that can be cheaply ported to as many platforms as possible."
When you make remarks like this, it shows me you aren't willing to consider 3rd Party games at all. So any discussion relating to them will not be able to follow any sort of logic. You are too bias against the idea of 3rd Party games to have a real discussion, also your attitude towards other users on this forum has made me not want to continue this discussion with you. I have decided this will be my last reply (hopefully) to you but I will probably continue this discussion with other users that can try to be a bit more open minded.
That is a large part of the reason why third party games don't come to the Wii U. It is internally an entirely different piece of hardware. Which is an issue for developers so therefore that gap should be closed. In order to close that gap? I believe that the NX should be something along the lines of this: NX: x86, 800-2000 GFLOPs
If the NX does that then the cost of porting over games to the NX is going to be far smaller. They're not going to have to dedicate entirely separate studios just to develop for Nintendo. As is currently the case for porting games to Wii U. They could instead do it alongside the releases on PS4/XBOne/PC. That would reduce the costs and therefore end with us getting more third party content on NX. That's what I was saying, that's what @DefHalan was saying.
So please, find a way to ignore what we're talking about this time.
edit: oh, and repeating the point I made earlier about how the PS2/GC example wasn't comparable. Lets just say that there wasn't such a thing as games being easily ported between consoles during that generation. So the points you might want to make about how Nintendo tried what I'm saying back then isn't correct.
@Project_Dolphin
I think you intended to respond to @Project_Dolphin there. I didn't say those things. I'm also just going to keep posting these specs until it either sinks into your head what we're talking about or you give up.
Current gen, Wii U all on its own:
XBOne: x86, 1300 GLFOPs
PS4: x86, 1800 GFLOPs
PC: x86, ~800-5000 GFLOPs
Wii U: PPC, 350 GFLOPs
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