Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild

@Nicolaison The thing is, I agree with him on at least as many things as I disagree with him - or at least get where he's coming from. And even if I disagreed with him on everything, I'm in no position to tell him what he can or can't like about the game. My problem isn't what he feels about the game, but in the delivery. If you turn up to a forum with nothing but a bunch of edgy one-liners that leave no room for debate, a debate is not what you're going to get; you're going to get an argument. If he doesn't leave any slack in his statements to account for the fact that other people might have different opinions, he's unlikely to get a whole lot of slack (or sympathy) in the responses. If he comes out with some completely inflexible declaration, he shouldn't then play the victim when challenged equally brashly on it.

You can't respond with "well excuuuse me for having a different opinion" when you phrased your opinion as infallible fact in the first place. No one minds that he "enjoyed game less" than they did and "dared talk about it". My complaint was that when he talked about it, it came out as a monotonously stroppy bunch of inflexible, snarky remarks, which could only be accepted wholesale or challenged from the root. Not ideas to be floated, or thoughts to be discussed, but unequivocal statements of fact. There might be some sensible points in there, but when they're stated in such an imperious manner, it's hard to then discuss them civilly. How you interact with other humans on a forum is fundamentally a hominem issue.

But anyway, getting away from the awkwardly hominem stuff, I definitely came across a few stone circles (and other Korok puzzles) later in the game that really didn't set my heart alight. I mean, if you were to line up every different Korok puzzle type in a row, your average person would likely say "that's a lot of variety", but across the huge world and 900 seeds, you do certainly notice some repetition, and that can undermine the small sense of joy and discovery the seed puzzles are meant to instil. Some types are immune from this. Despite being the most basic, I never got annoyed at the 'lift a pebble' ones because they were more often just a reward for reaching somewhere you would have been anyway. The tree stump races often felt quite unique too, because they'd employ the landscape in interesting ways.

I think the worst offenders in terms of repetitiveness were the stone circle and and metal cube ones. Sometimes they'd be more interesting shapes than circles, and sometimes actually getting the pebbles to the circle was an interesting environmental challenge, but more often than not they were just circles with a spare rock lying about nearby. Similarly, the metal cubes didn't really expand upon their core concept very much, and occasionally felt like a bit of a chore. I felt they could have used the environment around them more (like the tree stump dashes) rather than being so self contained. Rather than simply being basic geometrical shapes, maybe a plateau overlooking a lake could have all the stones but one placed corresponding to the locations of miniature islands on the lake below, or referenced some other aspect of the surrounding environment.

Maybe there could be more sophisticated puzzles that yielded two or more seeds - for example, a sliding tile puzzle game controlled via magnesis. Or a plumbing one where you had to redirect a stream to water a plant by using a metal door to alter the flow (though that might be better saved for a shrine). Or a Lego type thing where you need to add a few missing blocks to complete a miniature scale model of Talley town (or somewhere with similarly blocky structures). That last one might be a bit farfetched, but I feel the Korok puzzles are best when they're satisfyingly switched into the environment, and the stone circle and metal cube puzzles often aren't - hence the Copy and Paste complaints. Anyway, it's certainly an area where more variation would be an unequivocal improvement. I imagine it'd be quite fun to work on, although a huge time suck.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text.

@Pigeon Some people hated the weapon degradation system, but I personally enjoyed it. Not only does it give you an incentive to experiment with different methods of killing enemies, but it makes you always be trying out different types of weapons, which helps keep the combat fresh. I always found only using a one handed sword kind of boring in previous Zelda games. Besides, using only the most powerful weapons would make the game too easy.

@Pigeon Haha, sorry for the tearful tirade. I can assure you you weren't a factor in it. It'll be interesting to hear how you get on. I can empathise about the dungeons. On the whole, I've quite liked the past Zelda's versions, but they've occasionally been a bit overbearing, gloomy, and close to outstaying their welcome. The dungeons equivalents are a lot more streamlined in this game (arguably often too streamlined for my tastes - I'd often like to see an extra room or something to develop an idea further), and are obviously an awful lot more optional.

Hopefully you'll be able to find a balance between puzzling and adventuring that strikes a happy medium. In fact, the whole game is potentially a lot more streamlined if you want it to be, which might suit your tastes. Or it could be the most rambley, constantly side-tracked, indirect game ever, if you want that. But it really is your choice - the game rewards you in small ways for exploring, but doesn't feel like it penalises you for not doing so - and if you ever fancy a bit more direction, the four 'main' objectives can be clearly marked on your map. And even they're not strictly necessary.

I wouldn't say it's taken one step back for every step forward, but it's definitely gone in a very different direction from any previous titles. It's had a pretty positive reception on the whole, although everyone has their personal sticking points, some of which are surface level and some of which are more fundamental. I'd recommend it to almost anyone though.

Anyway, let us know how you find it! When do you expect the game to arrive?

@Maxz I hate accusing people of stating things as fact. I've never understood the difference between when someone states something as a fact vs. an opinion. If someone says something, and that thing happens to be unprovable and based on personal feelings, then it is an opinion, and no method of saying so changes that, outside of coming out and saying "and that's a fact!" Sure, you may use phrases such as "I feel" or "imo" before saying things, but honestly, that shows lack of confidence in what you're saying. Saying things outright only makes them more resolute; it doesn't deny anyone opportunity for rebuttal. Doesn't it seem silly to expect people to constantly "leave any slack in [one's] statements to account for the fact that other people might have different opinions" rather than just assume that everyone knows what opinions are?

However, this also means it wasn't fair for @Haru17 to "play the victim," as you say. No one was really speaking ad hominem to him. They were attacking his opinions, but not himself. At least from what I could tell, anyway; not sure I read all of the comments about him.

Pardon the paradox, but perfect example above: everything I just stated is my opinion, even though I used strong language to convey it.

In any case, there's no sense in taking offense by what anyone says here. It's the internet! And I happen to find @Haru17's snarkiness endearing. Okay, Judge Nicolai out!

@Nicolaison I was accused of "stooping to ad hominem", because he "enjoyed a game less than me and dared talk about it". I mean, to quote in full "Stop stooping to ad hominem because I enjoyed a game less than you and dared talk about it".

Which makes it sound he's been victimised, and denied an opinion. Which is not true. He's just been countered.

My point was that if he's going to make such bold and inflexible remarks (especially with such frequency), he should expect a firm rebuttal. I said he was being "eye-rollingly melodramatic and obtusely reductionistic", which is a strong statement (and vaguely ad hominem), but given some of his comments I thought it was accurate (and certainly not equivalent to denying someone a voice).

It just reminds me of someone referencing "freedom of speech" when justifying their comments, but upon getting countered they change tact to "stop criticising me, I have freedom to say what I want!" - and in doing so completely overlook the fact that the criticisms themselves are just other people exercising their freedom of speech. Not that we've had anyone yelling "freedom of speech" though, and of course, the community rules obviously mean it's not absolute anyway.

It's more like:
A: "This is the way things are"
B: "I don't think that's the way things are, and I think it's hyperbolic and over-simplistic to say so"
A: "Oh, so I'm not allowed an opinion am I?"
B: "No, that's wrong. You are allowed to have an opinion. And people are allowed to disagree with it, and will do so. The stronger and more inflexibly you phrase your opinion, the stronger people will likely disagree with it".

Anyway, yeah, it was mainly the use of the phrase "I enjoyed a game less than you and dared talk about it". Like, the dude's free to feel and talk about the game as he wishes (within those lovely community rules). But certain styles of comment are going to lead to certain styles of response, and the more snarky and one-sided your comment, the more likely you are to be hit with and equally potent rebuttal.

@Maxz I don't disagree with anything you just said. All I'll say is that @Haru17 can be pretty dramatic, and you're not wrong in expressing that, but I just don't care for arguments that stem from when someone feels like their right to free speech is compromised. It's just silly to say such a thing in an open forum.

@Pigeon
It's weird. Looking at things like the soundtrack, on its own it seems lacking, and several other aspects of the game like the openness, or the weapon degradation. But tossed all together it just kinda works. The music naturally picks up during combat, for example. But free roaming it just subtly enhances. And it works beautifully in my opinion.

Looking back I don't feel like this game had the amazing soundtrack previous entries head and yet I feel like using the previous soundtracks just wouldn't have worked as well. Idk, you'll just have to try it. It all fits together rather nicely.

That's not to say I'd be against having a full symphony orchestra for the next open world game but I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it I just think there's different approaches and all can work to a certain extent if done well

The soundtrack is my biggest complaint. Nothing really does stand out and is not really rememberable. I miss that more then the traditional dungeons.

@DarthNocturnal A piano sting tends to play when you travel to a new location/venture outside into the wild from a shrine or a city. The creepy one is the one that occurs at night, if I'm not mistaken.

I actually thought the soundtrack was one of the strengths of the game. The first thing I really liked about it was how it was very different to past soundtracks in the series. After a couple of Zelda games I've realized that whilst I love the soundtracks, the fact that can sound very similar with subtle differences here and there make them harder to stand out. I felt that by distancing themselves from past soundtracks with some subtle (and some not so subtle XD) call backs here and there, this game was better at creating it's own identity. I also loved the way the music slowly came into the game rather than constantly having an overworld theme. I felt that this made it feel much more organic and natural, basically far more atmospheric. The fact that there sometimes wouldn't be any music present made each encounter my music more note worthy/significant and they used music as a tool to lead you to points of interests such as the dragons and Kass playing nearby. I just loved it when you were exploring and heard the long broken notes on the piano. This might be my favourite soundtrack in the series (still deciding between twilight princess and this game) and I thought they did a great job of creating a soundtrack that IMO was both memorable and created an amazing atmosphere for the game.

Also that final boss music is just the best! Best Boss Music Eva! XD

I think overall the use of music is well implemented. This world is so big, I would get insane hearing a theme over and over. In Windwaker it was great but it didn't take long to get anywhere.
And you would otherwise also have these morrowind annoyances where the music suddenly stops because enemies appear.

Could it be better though? Ofcourse. Again I like the minimalistic approach, like some said you really hear the sound of nature which a traditional theme would completely destroy. But I guess some of the villages and dungeons could do with a more traditional and overall better score. I did really like the prelude to the Zora dungeon though, what a rush that was!

Minor update because it is 1am and I need to be up in two hours. I fricken love Vah Rudania. Watching it move while standing outside is so cool (and a little nerve racking because I wasn't always sure that I was in a safe spot to not fall to my death). When you first walk in....jeez first time in my 145+ hours of playing where I went: "aww crap...this is creepy". I really enjoyed the music for that one as well. I'm working on sidequests as I wait for my guide to show up so I can do a shrine location run before hitting Vah Naboris...I still have less than two hundred Korok seeds. I think I'm just going to do them as I find them but not shoot for the 900 goal. I will try to beat all the shrines and side quests though.

I also tried a small experiment. I played this weekend using music from various Zelda games... to see if I would like the constant soundtrack as I have with previous Zelda's. Now I am a card carrying member of the Hylia Music Appreciation club and I have OSTs for most of the Zelda games. Yet I didn't enjoy the constant music. I was testing something in Fallout 4 so I played that for a bit and I was reminded that open world games like this don't have persistent soundtracks. I figure since I have stomped around in a number of bethesda worlds for several thousand hours that was part of the reason that a persistent soundtrack felt off to me. Of course I'm using old Zelda music and not something composed for the game, however I think it was a fairly decent little experiment in between yard work and working on my workshop this weekend. I need more days. Ok I'm going back to bed. I'll edit typos when I'm more awake.

I liked the soundtrack in this game. I thought it fit the atmosphere pretty well, and I liked the more subtle music that plays when certain things happen. The music in past games was cool, and it suited those games, but if the game blasted music at you whenever you did anything, it would get kind of irritating IMO. If they played the sailing music from Wind Waker every time you rode a horse, for example, I think I would start losing my mind.

I especially like the music that plays when you come across one of the dragons. The peaceful music and the dragons slow and graceful movement compliment each other very well.

I think I'm with most people on this in that I fully agree with the philosophy behind the sound direction in the game. However, I feel it could have allowed itself to break from that philosophy on a few more occasions to deliver a bit more punch and memorability.

Maybe the inclusion of a live cover band would have been enough to tickle the nostalgia glands. I know we've got Kass, and I love Kass, and hearing the sound of Kass's accordion emerge from the tranquility of the natural soundscape makes for a beautifully organic geopositioning system. But Kass is still only one bird with one instrument, and maybe a couple of songs.

I think if each town had a bar, and each bar had a band, and each band played past Zelda songs suited to that region, then... that'd be nice. Maybe they could stay audible so long as you were within the town, acting as a sort of optional secondary soundtrack. I think it'd be a nice way of allowing for some musical variation (and fan service) without necessarily compromising on the 'soft touch' approach the game takes to sound design throughout.

I also really like the idea of people coming together and creating music in times of hardship. The world has been left all but desolate, and the remaining peoples have been forced into tight communities. Nothing strikes me as a better symbol for people pulling together and creating something from nothing than the image of a band of musicians entertaining the townsfolk from the back of a pub. Music can be a sign of hope and vitality, and the harmony behind it a sign of community and trust. Not once do we see more than one instrument on screen (I think), and in a series with as rich a musical history of Zelda, that seems like a shame.

Also, I'll never get sick of OoT's Gerudo Dessert theme, and if there's any way on Earth it could have made it into BotW, I'd be in heaven.

♪ Doo〜doot-doot〜do-doo〜doot-doot〜do-doo〜doot-doot〜do-doo〜doot-doot...♪

Brilliant!

This game has a way of making you do things you didn't expect to do. I've said for so long I was not ready for the castle. I still don't have any dragon shards or anything, though I'm fairly upgraded armor-wise at this point. So I was heading to the field to hunt some guardians because I need like 13 more cores for my upgrades. And I have 2. So I head to the field looking for a guardian to Slay. Walk into the East side of Castle Town ruins, and can't find guardians....Finally I see one behind buildings, but I realized he's not spotting me this time...I'm just walking along with nothing bothering me...it's unguarded right now...and I see a spot I can inch around the big ancient column in front. I walk around it and suddenly I get the cutscene that I've entered the castle proper....and the music fires up (which is so awesome, btw), well shoot...I mean I'm here....I guess it can't hurt to look around some.... so I start going through the castle exterior.....poke my head into a room with some moblins...nope...I realized I have to be close to the last memory....so...maybe just a little further up screw the guardian turrets and their triple blasts and billion hit points so I went looking and found the memory (and more cool music!) and and the diaries, great back story and figured....well...I'm not ready for the throne area, haven't done Rudania yet, so back down I go....but I stopped to explore everywhere else too....ended up doing the library, getting the recipes, doing the kings study with his diary, and the lockup and the shield, which is awesome to have I probably missed SOMETHING in there, and I've heard there's a shrine in there, unfortunately I missed out on that, have to look later, all from a run I wasn't actually intended to take at all for weeks still but it just happened to be unguarded as I was passing through. It's pretty cool. Smaller than I thought but pretty cool.

OTOH I'm getting worried that my game is in a weird state. I've killed like 20 guardians recently and have not acquired a SINGLE core. It's getting frustrating. I have hordes of springs and screws and shafts and no cores. Also the arrow shop in Kakariko has not resupplied arrows in a week (real world time) or so. Beedle has resupplied ONE bundle of arrows after about 5 real world days, and not again after. Despite many blood moons, no restocks...that's a little odd I think. I've checked one or two other shops and they're not resupplying some things.

Weirder, I'm getting blood moons non-stop. The other day I was exploring the Eldin skeleton area and it was like 6:45AM (game time) and suddenly the pink sparks started flying up, the music rapidly became blood moon music, flashed red, got the blood moon cut scene, then returned back at around 7:00AM. While I was in the castle midnight every night flashed red (but apparently can't play blood moon events in the castle), and then once I left, I got a blood moon at midnight, then again at 4:30AM, then about 2 (real world) minutes later, it happened again, and then briefly after at like 7:00PM (game world minutes).....3 blood moons in a single in-game 24 hour period, no cores from guardians and no arrow restocks. Something's going really weird. I haven't run the .3 patch yet, I'm wondering if .2 messed some things up....

@NEStalgia That IS kind of weird. Aren't these patches updating automatically though, or am I missing something.? Now that I think about it I never did see the update Nintendo released recently.

@Spanjard Patches update automatically when you restart the game, but this is Zelda so I don't restart too often Snake Pass and Setsuna get some play time but I don't think I switched out more than once or twice since the newest patch and I was impatient and skipped the update when it asked.

Though some patches don't seem to be automatic. I think it was either Has-Been Heroes or Bomberman that when a new patch was released it didn't update and I had to manually check for it.

But yeah, the whole no cores, no arrows (unless I have "too many" arrows for a restock to happen?), and the infinite blood moons (especially infinite blood moons) is striking me odd. Broad daylight, suddenly you see pink, the music starts the blood moon buildup (and it seems to go twice as fast as usual like the game is racing to throw one in the middle of nowhere) and the blood moon kicks in.

At least it makes the "under a red moon" quest easy?

@NEStalgia I think you also get a bonus for cooking during the blood moon so have fun with that!

I just did a search on google and it seems you're not the only one with the frequent blood moon thing. Are you playing Switch or Wii U? I guess it's a bug?

@Spanjard Good point, I should stock up before I patch

Interesting, I didn't even think it would be wide spread enough to warrant looking it up since I hadn't heard about it here. I'm playing on Switch.