Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild

@Eric258
Yea, the previous titles had "definite" solutions to their puzzles. I think some of us like that, some of don't.

I do appreciate that the shrines in BotW can be solved in so many ways. But if I'm being honest, I do like that "square block in the square hole" kind of puzzle solving with the items in older games. Just the way my brain works, I guess.

But I totally respect people who enjoy finding crazy ways to solve puzzles!

I dont know which design mentality I prefer.

I feel the lack of linearity ends up placing more focus on what the user knows and their ingenuity which is more gratifying for a user.

But some users find that frustrating.

From a development standpoint its a juggle and pleasing both is difficult.

@BLP_Software I'm sure there's a middle way. Just like how the previous Zelda games weren't as 'open' as BOTW, but they were still considered to be 'open world' games, at least to a degree. Not as linear as a level or chapter driven game.

By giving the player a unique item at the start of the dungeon, you still get the unique item, and you get to use it throughout the dungeon. That also means that the boss fight can involve that specific dungeon item as well. Of course, themed dungeons can make a return regardless of whether the franchise continues this way or goes back to a more linear approach.

@Octane I think one thing folk found refreshing is the fact that fungeons were an unknown. They couldve done with more theming yes, but one thing I find beneficial to this design is the lack of knowing what to expect.

In past games you go in, get item, use item, it beats boss, next one.

Both have merits.

I think offering more freedom with puzzles and dungeon layout, especially with dungeon manipulation like the Divine Beast controls, would be a good thing in more traditional dungeons.

With regards to "open world", i think that phrase is why Nintendo says "Open air" with this game.

Past Zelda games have indeed been open world. There is a big, wide open world in which everything is situated, instead of linear levels.

Breath of the Wild is open air, in that yes there is the open world, but there is also freedom. Its not an open world with linearity through it, or how Ubisoft does it, with their items everywhere but the main meat is linear. Its an open world with open gameplay.

But thats just how I view it. Id be yelled at in university for that, because there is either linear, convergence, or open world to them, with little expansion.

@Operative2-0 Can the enemies in the Yiga Hideout be called "too strong" when the whole point of that area is that it's a stealth section? You're not supposed to be seen, and the massive brawls that initiate upon doing so are supposed to be slightly less cheap versions of simply telling you "too bad, try again".

It just seems a bit like the complaint that the Lynel fight near Shatterbank Point is "too hard", when the whole point is not to fight it, and to get the Thunder Arrows without being spotted (which is basically what all the NPCs are advising). You can fight the Lynel, if you're like... nuts, but all indicators in the game are spelling out that the important thing is the arrows, and that Lynel is probably best avoided. Similarly with the Yiga challenge, practically every NPC is telling you that you don't stand a chance in a fight against the entire clan. In other words; don't get into one.

Having said that, I did make it my goal to sneak strike every Yiga dude and steal their bananas, but even that was in keeping with 'stealth' theme. And I think I died over 10 times in the process.

It just seems strange to call them "too strong", when the whole point was to make them so offputtingly strong that you wouldn't be tempted to engage with them in the first place, instead treating it as the stealth section that 'sneaking into the Hideout' is designed to be.

Anyway, I'd agree it's a really cool section, and one of a few points where the game tries to funnel you into something more linear, which is a nice change, and creates a more focused challenge. The other points that come to mind are the Zora's Domain lead up (the rain stops you climbing over everything), and the Lost Woods, which just goes "no" if you try to amble off the correct path.

@rallydefault Hopefully the dlc has an Amazing dungeon that we'll both love!!!

Having a 2 year old and a 10 month old, as well as working 50 hours a week I was probably optimistic that I would get a lot of time to play this game.

But they're going on a trip to the coast all next week. As much as I'll really miss them, it is great timing to get deeper into it. I've only just got the paraglider.

I've got Bryce, Basil, and Babe. It's only weird because I totally didn't plan that alliteration.

@Eric258 I love that series. He can act a bit holier-than-thou being a game designer and all, but his philosophies on what makes the best dungeons really resonate with me.

For example, I had always felt that WW had lackluster dungeons, but he explained to me how those dungeons (among some in other 3D games) can be so linear yet thinly veiled so that it seems like it isn't. But beyond linearity and open-choice, he explains how some dungeons are created in such a way where switches or mechanics in one side of the dungeon affect other parts of the dungeon, and it actually requires that the player understands how the dungeon works as a whole. No running through it thoughtlessly to see how far you get. And I found that those kinds of dungeons end up being my favorite, because spacial reasoning is my favorite kind of challenge in video games, and explains why I like puzzle games, and Splatoon, and Smash. As it turns out, all four of BotW's dungeons do this, so I couldn't be happier.

Yeah, he's a really smart game designer. I recommend Gamemaker's Toolkit to anyone, game designer or not.

@Maxz for someone that wants to complete the compendium, it's required you manually kill at least one, to get a picture of their katana. That's the games fault then, if I don't treat it as a stealth mission at first, because the only way to finish the compendium would be to engage them directly. Obviously the second part where there's 6 of them can't really be done with stealth, which is where ancient arrows made things easier.

I really love dungeons and how they did them in this game. Multiple solutions, no need of particular items so you can just figure it out by yourself, quite nice puzzles, boss fights that have some nice ideas (even if they are not that difficult considering the overworld, but that's another story). They obviously are not perfect, but i think it's a huge step forward for the series in its integrity. I'm at half the game and can't wait to discover the missing part, and let's not talk about next installment. I think that with BOTW Aonuma took Zelda on really another level!

@Operative2-0 A shrine quest gets you one of their katana in a mandatory battle.

Ohhh I can buy the blights? Thank goodness

I don't know which university you are talking about, but you touched on some of the reasons most of the studios I am familiar with really don't value graduates from game design programs. 'Gamer brain' is fragile and non flexible, not very well suited to critical thinking and real world problem solving... And that kind of overbearing restriction does no favours for their ability to communicate with others... Which actually in general is something most of them seem to value more than programming ability. They feel programming can be taught on the job far more easily than the ability to communicate and understand others.

Before the worst generation when I was still in the game we organized linearity vs openess on a six point sliding scale.

Level 1 for the most linear games, like the original super mario bros where you can't even go back once the screen has advanced.

Level 2 generally once you could go backwards or select and replay levels, like Mario 3.

Level 3 was generally where open world begins. There are no levels, and the player can travel freely through any area the can reach with their current move set. Despite not having levels, these tend to still be pretty linear experiences, there is a set path the player is supposed to follow and the director makes sure the player stays on the path with an iron fist. Modern Zelda's fit neatly in this category, with the exception of MM.

Level 4 is similar to level 3, but 'The Path' tends to be better disguised, and not as strictly enforced, more of a guiding hand than an iron fist. Metroid nes goes solidly here, The Na/JP Super Metroid and original na release of metroid prime fits solidly as well... After the localization nuetering its more of a low 4 high 3 (sliding scale) Quite possibly one of the hardest design directions to get right, as it requires solid use of mintrinsic and extrinsic design used in great balance. Todays Indies noticing this particular kind of game has pretty much dissapeared (AAAAA publishers won't touch something this hard to do with a 10 foot pole, and nintendo, before botw was off drunk in the corner with a lampshade on their head again) have taken a real liking to trying and pull it off... But they are all extrinsic lock and key fests, they completely fail to grasp the necessary system driven mechanics needed for intrinsic design.

Level 5 is generally for open world RPG's, and since gta3 action adventure games as well. Not quite a sandbox, despite marketing heavily using the term, these games do have wide open worlds for the player to do whatever they want whenever they want... However the game still progresses via the use of a main quest line that controls well progression.

Level 6 True open world Sandbox: Completely intrinsic games, with little to no no extrinsic aspects like guidance, purpose, plot, story, progression design... Today Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress dwell here.

On the topic of dungeons, I much prefer the more classic style Zelda dungeons for many of the reasons mentioned above. I think there's a lot of satisfaction in making all the way through the labyrinth and reaching the "end." That's not to say that there's no satisfaction in the style BotW takes, but I think there's a big difference in having the end goal presented to you from the start in a glass case versus finally reaching the peak and having no idea what's there until you finally get there.

That said, I honestly feel that Skyward Sword had the best dungeons in the series (overall) simply due to the layers that the dungeons had. Even revisiting old dungeons/areas with new areas opened up so much more to the player, which I thought was just perfectly designed. The stuff in between the dungeons (swimming for those stupid notes >__>) was certainly less enjoyable, but the dungeons themselves were so wonderfully crafted.

@Operative2-0 It's not the game's fault that it gives you the option of doing it either way. Well it is, but that's not a bad thing. And there are plenty of chances to get the Wind Cleaver later in the game. I've obtained over 10 of them (although obviously not all at once).

Like, it's cool that you brute-forced the stealth mission, and it's cool that doing so created one of your favourite parts of the game, but the game's fault that you did that, and the game doesn't penalise you for doing the intended method. It's not like you need the Wind Cleaver at that point in the game, and there are plenty of chances to nab one later. In fact, I've even seen complaints that there are too many opportunities to do so, although I think the balance is pretty much right.

I think the fact you managed to brute force it is pretty cool TBH. But I'm glad it wasn't easy, because if it were, the temptation to do so would be high enough that most players would probably resort to it, and miss out on the joy of sneaking around in the rafters, dropping bananas down to divert the guards. Successfully pulling off aerial banana distraction techniques is one of my personal highlights.

You can also ohko the guards if you manage to sneak up to them.

@Maxz I think you make a very good point. If it was any easier, then it wouldn't have felt as satisfying as it did to manage to kill the first two on my own

@Operative2-0 Yeah, colour me impressed. I remember when people came here posting "Phew! That Lynel was a bit tough to take down, wasn't is?", and I was like, "You did WHAT!? You just had to get the arrows!".

In all the other stealth sections in Zelda games, you simply get sent back to your game if you get spotted (I remember TP and WW had these, but probably others as well), but I think that it's cool that BotW at least lets you fight your corner and try to survive. I never managed it (I did manage to run out of the base before getting killed once though), but I think it typifies the sort of game BotW is. There's no, "You can't go here because we say so", it's just, "Well, here's your challenge; good luck".

By the way, I've just stumbled upon a little easter egg with regards to, err... Paya's birthmark. Turns out it does get revealed, and in no uncertain terms:

Apparently Impa's tact is not equal to her wisdom. I was genuinely surprised when the game went there. It's such a hilarious break from character, that I actually jumped a little. Butt anyway, there's that mystery solved!

@TNGYM I like you already. We have very similar views on gaming.

I mean I'm viewed as a bit of a random guy in the course. My views on Nintendo notwithstanding (They all shake their heads), the way I look at designing a game, or a mechanic, is different to what they (A Sony partnered, heavily western focused university) would like.

It's always been my dream to be a game designer. That's just been me through and through.

In fact, I'm going to share this with you. I don't care if it's technically classified but whatever.

We had a class on making an indie studio. Stuff I already knew about starting a business and whatnot, but good for the folks that didn't (This is one of the maybe 50% of classes that actually teaches something useful about making games). They said, and I am quoting this directly.

"As part of the business plan you must submit funding, a company structure, costs associated and further monetisation through microtransactions or downloadable content.

As part of your submitted game prototype concept there must be commented code, several mechanics, at least one full level of around 3 minutes in length, and an example of microtransactions within the prototype"

So guess what I didn't do? No way in hell on Earth am I planning DLC and microtransactions as part of a prototype for a game. When it's gone gold? Sure, if there is more I can add that doesn't warrant a totally new project, then I'd do it, fine. Probably release it for free if it wasn't loads of content.

But NEVER before even so much as funding the damn thing.

This is why I haven't crowdfunded my title yet. I want to be able to say, based on what else has happened to Nintendo consumers: "This game IS coming to Switch, come hell or high water". I wont nickel and dime or screw around with a consumer base.

But that's what they teach. The other classes have been less excitingly infuriating.

• Concept art, promotional assets etc. (Relevant) that bled in the second semester into video reviews...and an interactive PDF magazine? Alright.
  3D Modelling of objects, characters and scenes. (Relevant)
  Making websites for clients (Kinda? relevant)
  12 Page GDD and prototypes (Didn't teach any coding, only paperwork)
  Making "Mobile Apps" that are actually mobile optimised websites (Again...maybe?)
  3D Animation (Relevant)
  Programming within middleware (Relevant, most people didn't get it)
  Discussing difficult concepts within gaming (I don't...cool I guess? It included making transmedia narratives, realistic renders and a character avatar creator, with no input on what those entail)
  Setting up an indie studio (Relevant yet poor guidance)
  Level design (Relevant)
  3d special effects for movies (What? Game Design?)
  Visualisation of a concept (Example of how data moves through a CPU) that is expressed to a user via animation (So youtube animated tutorials/how it works videos)

TL;DR: I'm basically self taught.

OT though: I like how in many ways BOTW shows how while the industry can move towards this kind of game, and genre and philosophy as a whole, it also really shows the merit of the older, what many developers (See: People who try to teach me) say are antiquated, design methods.

Breath of the Wild has shown how you can do something new with an existing franchise to great success and feedback. It has shown that open world games don't always have to be the way industry leaders have laid them out to be. It shows that the way things were are appreciated in addition to new things by consumers. In discussions I see people saying what they like about BOTW compared to past games, what they like in reverse as well, and what they'd like to see if the two mixed.

Rarely have I seen "The old way is better the new way sucks" when rationally discussed. It's commonly "I appreciate and do enjoy what BOTW brings, but I feel there is also room for the way it used to be, or a mix, as well as modernising everything".

And I like that. I like that a lot.

@BLP_Software [Insert dorky GIF of someone clapping]