@Pizzamorg I think that it's important to understand that the games aren't the ones creating this elitist and toxic mentality, it's the people and those are the ones you actually have a problem with, not the game. Changing difficulty wouldn't change much as people would justify this beahviour with another thing. For example, when the Souls games weren't a thing yet (Dark Souls wasn't out a Demon's Souls had a small fandom) there was an article about how dark Souls could be the next new big thing and it was compared to Skyrim, which was also coming out (or just came out?) and it was mocked and attacked by several users that assured that Elder Scrolls were much superior games, even if the people interested in the Souls games weren't attacking or mentioning those at all. Fanboyism is another example that pretty much any attribute/quality will make people get a certain mentality and personally I don't think that we should blame it on whatever thing they are fixed on. Another example being "real gamers" hating on mobile games or simply people hating on whatever they "don't get" like the Fortnite or Fall Guys hype. People simply, always will search a reason to be jerks.
I do get that gaming should be accesible and that difficulty is a way of doing it, but that doesn't mean that it's as easy with every game as it is on others. It also means that not every game can work that way because of it's concept or that even if they are developers they know a way of doing it as every thing that isn't implemented properly is usually more criticized and hated on rather than being appreciated for trying. Sometimes I feel like people think that developers are just lazy and that because something is on one game they think that it works the same way on another and that it's just a matter of implementing it when it's not. Another thing is that a game really wants to manage it's difficulty as one of it's selling points then they should be able to. It's clear that there is a certain audience and that they are not trying to appeal to everyone so what's the problem with people not accepting that they won't be able to connect with every game? You are still perfectly able to play it, just not on the exact way that you want. They already accepted that it won't sell with people that don't like challenge so why can people also accept that the product isn't directed to them? It's no excuse, it's simply their reason. Just as I believe that people that can't surpass the challenge and find it too hard and frustrating aren't excusing themselves and are genuinely giving a reason why they aren't having a fun time.
The time when people stop demanding for near perfect situations in which everything is optimal for everyone and start understanding that just affects other people (mainly the ones that are demanded to do this) that they don't even have in mind is when I think that true empathy will happen.
I feel like you didn’t read the majority of my last post, as I addressed a lot of this already. My point wasn’t just that people generally suck and it is a shame that you latched into that, rather than the wider and more specific point I was trying to make about how exclusionary many game series have been historically and remain, when there is no real justification anymore to do so.
Every time people talk about the accomplishment, or “the intended audience”, the sense of accomplishment or the community, or whatever justification people make for the exclusionary difficulty those games have, it is never once in response to someone suggesting that that be taken away.
My point and is often the point made by many others, that the brutal difficulty should exist alongside an easy mode. The choice should be made to the gamer. And an easy mode existing in those games doesn’t take away any of the other things, it just means more people can play the game, experience the world/story/characters or whatever entices those players to that title. It is like people who say you haven’t “beaten” a game if you finish it on say a story difficulty or something and devs have to actually come out and tell people to stop being *****. Just a sorry state of affairs.
I also think people make it seem like difficulty is more complex than it really is. You can quite easily lower the damage numbers enemies produce, increase windows for reactions, offer greater quantities of health/buffing items or offer more forgiving save checkpoints, without having to really touch the actual mechanics of an encounter at all. Live service games have shown us this, with them doing regularly game wide balance passes.
And in regards to your final paragraph, I don’t get what you are trying to say, honestly. It sort of sounds like you are arguing against gaming being for everyone? But surely no one would make such an argument. If you are then just yikes, that truly is an unpopular opinion.
@Pizzamorg Honestly I think that you are the one not reading my arguments properly. I mean I just posted it and you already replied with quite a lot.
Also:
"And in regards to your final paragraph, I don’t get what you are trying to say, honestly. It sort of sounds like you are arguing against gaming being for everyone? But surely no one would make such an argument. If you are then just yikes, that truly is an unpopular opinion."
Considering that you wrote that, it really DOES seem that you aren't really reading my comments as it's not even close to that. I'm pretty much saying that making a product adecuate for everyone isn't as easy as you and others think, and that you tend to underestimate what devs do. Thinking that a product will easily be accessible for everyone is naive and it doesn't consider the amount of work and knowledge required, they don't do it because of "excuses" as you think.
You also really didn't address my points as you claim, for example, you just plain out ignored that I just said that doing an easy mode isn't as "easy" for some games as it is for others and that usually it even backfires ,so let's just agree to disagree.
@Pizzamorg Honestly I think that you are the one not reading my arguments properly. I mean I just posted it and you already replied with quite a lot.
Also:
"And in regards to your final paragraph, I don’t get what you are trying to say, honestly. It sort of sounds like you are arguing against gaming being for everyone? But surely no one would make such an argument. If you are then just yikes, that truly is an unpopular opinion."
Considering that you wrote that, it really DOES seem that you aren't really reading my comments as it's not even close to that. I'm pretty much saying that making a product adecuate for everyone isn't as easy as you and others think, and that you tend to underestimate what devs do. Thinking that a product will easily be accessible for everyone is naive and it doesn't consider the amount of work and knowledge required, they don't do it because of "excuses" as you think.
You also really didn't address my points as you claim, for example, you just plain out ignored that I just said that doing an easy mode isn't as "easy" for some games as it is for others and that usually it even backfires ,so let's just agree to disagree.
Yeah if you’re not willing to actually engage any of the points I am making, more than happy to agree to disagree with you and engage with others who have more to say.
@Pizzamorg You do realize you are making it personal with that kind of replies right? Please, be respectful. I did feel like I was addressing your points and you were ignoring mine as explained in the previous comment so it was mutual and there's no point in escalating a misunderstanding. Couldn't you have left it like that? I do have more to say and I guess that you do too, so let's not fight just because we couldn't reach an understanding. No "yikes" or " I'm willing to engage with others who have more to say", just a respectful disagreement.
Talking about gaming difficultly, in my opinion every game should come with an easy mode. The fact the Dark Souls games, for example, use exclusion and call it “artistic intent” is one of the most unspoken scuzzy practices in gaming.
Likewise, whenever a traditionally punishingly hard franchise decides to make an easier entry, I always praise the company for doing this, as this is the right direction always in my opinion. I am not saying hard difficulties shouldn’t exist, but I am saying that every game should have difficulty settings that appeal to the sweatiest of the sweats and the most casual of the casual in the audience. One side should never be excluded from being able to play.
Can’t you just watch the game on Youtube or something if you don’t want to actually improve your skills and get good? Difficulty levels inevitably lead to additional Q/A costs (either increasing the price of the game or removing something else) or improper balance. It is better that the game have a gradual difficulty curve (with optional challenges for the best players to get to 100% completion) rather than have multiple versions of the game.
@Pizzamorg Then it sounds likes you shouldn't play that type of game, Yes it can be stupid, not saying it all meant, But, for the most part they wanted it to be hard, and To make an easy mode for a game they never had a intent for, is pretty stupid.
Its almost like I have this thing of art, its not perfect, and there are stuff that can be fixed, but lets say the drawing has them in a skimpy suit, now do I have to make to versions? One without for said people not to look at it? I would say no, I didn't make it for that, If you don't like it, you don't have to play it, So the DS games are hard, and thats what people love about it, so if you don't want to learn how to play, then you can do what @Euler said and watch a video or somethin.
And you also said the choice should be made by the gamer, but why in the world Do they have to now make a whole other mode, for a game that was meant to be hard? they never made it for you in the first place.
I just hope you appreciate the 200-300 dollars (or your country's equivalent) you now have because Nintendo disagreed.
I mean, if you loved Dual Screen and had no interest to buy a Nintendo console again, I could see that being a negative (though you still have more access to more games this way, you'd lose out on Nintendo console games). I also miss dual screens. But that's probably about it.
Honestly, I can't tell you what it is. I like to think it's not just sentimentality for the the line of handhelds that I've known since I was a kid, but...well, maybe a little bit.
And you've got a strong point about cost because I never owned a Gamecube nor a Wii, but I have always gone for a Nintendo handheld.
Hang on to your youthful enthusiasms - you'll be able to use them better when you're older.
@Snatcher Most people would find this toxic, but in moments like these, the game is either not for the person in question, or they just have to “git good”.
Personally, I like games that hardly have difficulty modes and push you to learn enemy patterns and mechanics to get through. It doesn’t coddle you as much, and challenges me.
"It is fate. Many have tried, yet none have ever managed to escape it's flow."
@Pizzamorg Then it sounds likes you shouldn't play that type of game, Yes it can be stupid, not saying it all meant, But, for the most part they wanted it to be hard, and To make an easy mode for a game they never had a intent for, is pretty stupid.
Its almost like I have this thing of art, its not perfect, and there are stuff that can be fixed, but lets say the drawing has them in a skimpy suit, now do I have to make to versions? One without for said people not to look at it? I would say no, I didn't make it for that, If you don't like it, you don't have to play it, So the DS games are hard, and thats what people love about it, so if you don't want to learn how to play, then you can do what @Euler said and watch a video or somethin.
And you also said the choice should be made by the gamer, but why in the world Do they have to now make a whole other mode, for a game that was meant to be hard? they never made it for you in the first place.
Yeah and that is where my opinion becomes unpopular, because yours seems to be the common response, but I think it toxic af. Calling it “stupid” to include an easy mode is just crazy to me, just like gatekeeping statements like “don’t like it, play something else”. Like can’t you see the problem with that attitude? To me, gaming should be for everyone. It is just that simple. The fact that people don’t agree is just sad.
And every time people use art, or movies, or whatever else to make a counter point, I just don’t get the arguments at all. All other art forms are passive, you could argue there is an intellectual barrier to some art but there is no barrier to any other art form for entry or completion, you may not understand what the art is truly meant to say but anyone can enjoy any piece of art that exists.
This is simply not true of video games, as they are active, not passive. Not every game can simply be picked up and enjoyed. Which is exactly the point I was making before. Like a great movie, the mark of a great game, is it can be picked up, enjoyed and completed by anybody. But it also provides extra layers of mastery, to those who wish to stick around and learn that greater mastery. Games that are just intentionally hard to appeal to one tiny slice of an audience and exclude everyone else are just garbage as far as I am concerned.
Talking about gaming difficultly, in my opinion every game should come with an easy mode. The fact the Dark Souls games, for example, use exclusion and call it “artistic intent” is one of the most unspoken scuzzy practices in gaming.
Likewise, whenever a traditionally punishingly hard franchise decides to make an easier entry, I always praise the company for doing this, as this is the right direction always in my opinion. I am not saying hard difficulties shouldn’t exist, but I am saying that every game should have difficulty settings that appeal to the sweatiest of the sweats and the most casual of the casual in the audience. One side should never be excluded from being able to play.
Can’t you just watch the game on Youtube or something if you don’t want to actually improve your skills and get good? Difficulty levels inevitably lead to additional Q/A costs (either increasing the price of the game or removing something else) or improper balance. It is better that the game have a gradual difficulty curve (with optional challenges for the best players to get to 100% completion) rather than have multiple versions of the game.
Lol. I mean what do you even say here. This feels like it has come straight from The Onion. The “it is too expensive” to include an easy mode (???) thought is certainly a new one. Would love to see the actual data behind where that comes from, as I understand an easy mode is mostly just adjusted values from the harder modes so that wouldn’t require any extra cost at all.
@Pizzamorg Unfortunately this particular statement “don’t like it, play something else” is used for EVERYTHING even with the affairs of this site. ("don't like it, go somewhere else" etc.)
I always appreciate a good "Story" difficulty option nowadays! If I feel cocky enough I would choose the higher difficulties when replaying the game.
I really wanted an easy difficulty for Blasphemous but I managed to beat it without it with lots of dying and learning.
@Pizzamorg Unfortunately this particular statement “don’t like it, play something else” is used for EVERYTHING even with the affairs of this site. ("don't like it, go somewhere else" etc.)
I always appreciate a good "Story" difficulty option nowadays! If I feel cocky enough I would choose the higher difficulties when replaying the game.
I really wanted an easy difficulty for Blasphemous but I managed to beat it without it with lots of dying and learning.
Yeah, this is how I enjoy my games too. I usually play it the first time on the lowest difficulty, so I can just enjoy it. Soak in the story, world, characters etc then do another play through to see how far I can push myself on the higher difficulties, without worry, as I have already experienced the whole title.
@Pizzamorg Ya but sadly you can't make up the rules of the gaming world, "Games should be for everyone" and I think people should go easy on me if I suck ass at a sport.
Well look, I do think I came off to rough, But I disagree with you and you disagree with me, and thats fine.
@VoidofLight I've come to be the same. Some of the most frustrating games I've ever started with have become firm favourites because on top of the enjoyment of the game itself, I have the satisfaction of overcoming the rough start and 'gitting gud'. Castlevania games are great for this kind of sense of achievement.
Hang on to your youthful enthusiasms - you'll be able to use them better when you're older.
@Pizzamorg Ya but sadly you can't make up the rules of the gaming world, "Games should be for everyone" and I think people should go easy on me if I suck ass at a sport.
I genuinely have no idea what you are trying to say here?
@Pizzamorg What about movies that are intentionally dumb, or scary, or whatever just to please a specific audience?
I get the passive vs active line of thought you presented, and I do enjoy when games offer different levels of difficulty so you can pick the one that pleases you. But arguing that all games must have this feature is almost nonsense. The creators made their work the way they intended.
@Pizzamorg I'm just saying its fine to want an easy mode for games, story driven games in my opinion should always have a easy mode, but games that kinda use it as fuel for its gameplay, like crash, or DS, I think it might be harder to add something like that, all i'm saying.
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@Pizzamorg What about movies that are intentionally dumb, or scary, or whatever just to please a specific audience?
I get the passive vs active line of thought you presented, and I do enjoy when games offer different levels of difficulty so you can pick the one that pleases you. But arguing that all games must have this feature is almost nonsense. The creators made their work the way they intended.
What about those movies? There will be movies in genres you don’t enjoy, a movie won’t be made for everyone in the audience. But that is not the same as making a game so hard, only a select people can play it. You might love the genre of a game, want to experience the story or whatever, but it’s made hard enough that you can’t. If you can’t see the difference between that and a horror movie made from horror fans, then there is probably no point having this conversation any further.
And again, I think it is just sad that you think making games for everyone is “nonsense”. If you can’t retain your artistic intent by offering a lower difficulty for a wider audience, then it suggests to me the artistic intent was never very good in the first place. If all your game has is brutal difficulty, then it doesn’t sound like a very good game to me.
@Pizzamorg Well as your saying it, "Games for everyone" then I think there should be an option to take off Blood and gore in some video games, as some people might like the gameplay, but not feel ok with all the blood.
Nintendo are like woman, You love them for whats on the inside, not the outside…you know what I mean! Luzlane best girl!
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