DKC2 and 3's team up mechanics are not gimmicks; they're integral to the entire game's design.
Firstly, being able to switch between Diddy/Kiddy and Dixie whenever you want is a massive aspect of the game.
Each Kong has differences in playstyle and not only is it necessary to play the game as efficiently as possible and get all the secrets, but it also makes the games far more replayable since you get to complete levels as whichever of the two Kongs you want (much like Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles in Sonic 3K and Mania)
Being able to throw your partner Kong is also extremely important for finding all the secrets and allowing you to approach levels differently- any experienced DKC player knows this.
If you're just using throwing to find secrets, it's not really integral to the game. The game doesn't really utilize the throwing much in its gameplay, mechanics, or gimmicks, it's basically just "Press to get secret". Otherwise, the throwing offers nothing that switching didn't already do.
Secondly, DKC2 and 3 have by FAR the best bonus levels and secrets in the entire franchise. As a huge fan of DKCR and Tropical Freeze, this was easily the biggest disappointment and the single largest reason as to why DKC2 and 3 are still the best.
Every single Bonus Level is new, fun, and interesting; and on top of that, the secret levels and final boss they unlock you are excellent.
Trivial. They're basically just mini games designed for 100%ing. Not part of the core gameplay.
Lastly, the animal buddies are also sorta undeniably a huge deal too. The spider, elephant, snake, parrot, and marlin are amazing additions to the games and add a wonderful amount of variety while still being entirely faithful to the core DKC gameplay.
Animal Buddies are closer to level gimmicks than actual gameplay mechanics, they're restricted to certain levels and designed to work with certain level gimmicks. They're great, but nothing really major.
Oh, and again- I must reiterate how unique and creative the themes and settings of DKC2 and 3 are and how they have yet to ever be revisited.
Trivial. Settings and themes don't have a lot of impact on the gameplay, it mainly affects visuals and level gimmicks. There's no gameplay mechanics that stem from those themes in the same way as games like Metroid Prime 2, Galaxy, or Odyssey.
You are especially objectively incorrect when it comes to Super Metroid
In Super Metroid, you are tasked with defeating the four main baddies on Zebes. That's it. The way you approach them is mostly up to you.
There are obviously some mandatory things you must do, but you can skip over entire sections and powerups throughout the whole game. You don't even need to grab the Gravity Suit.
You can do this without the use of any bugs or exploits. Good wall jumping skills allow you to skip over a lot of things.
No subsequent Metroid release allows you to do this. You are actually just wrong here.
This makes Super Metroid by far the most interesting to replay and speedrun.
Again, this is sequence breaking, which is done by using exploits in the game. The game doesn't really intend for you to complete the game in any order, it just doesn't block you from using game breaking mechanics like Wall Jump and Shinespark. The game does have a specific order it wants you to complete it in:
Morph Ball in old Brinstar
Missiles near where the old Kraid's Lair used to be
Bombs by beating Torizo
Super Missiles by beating Spore Spawn
Hi Jump Boots in Norfair
Varia Suit by beating Kraid
Speed Booster in Norfair
Ice Beam in Norfair
Power Bombs in Lower Brinstar
Fight Crocomire
Grapple Beam in Norfair
Fight Phantoon
Gravity Suit in Wrecked Ship
Fight Botwoon
Space Jump by beating Draygon
Screw Attack by beating Gold Torizo
Fight Ridley
Fight Mother Brain
If you're playing normally, this is the specific order you have to complete the game. This isn't BotW, you can't just wander around in any direction until you find something, you have to use special tricks to circumvent the game's design. The game at its core is just as linear as any other Metroid game.
Lastly, those 3D sequels are pretty much entirely different games from their 2D counterparts altogether.
I mean, don't get me wrong: they're obviously tied to their 2D predecessors as they bear the same name, subject matter, and in some cases- even design motifs.
Despite that, they're entirely different gameplay experiences that don't really coincide much at all with their 2D counterparts, especially not enough to render the 2D experiences obsolete.
The only games that that's really a legitimate argument are the sandbox Mario games (and even then you still run, jump, collect coins, use powerups and all of the other main series Mario things in those games) and BotW (which is kind of a gameplay reboot for the 3D games, but even then the only thing really missing is dungeons). Otherwise the games all share the same core gameplay, except they actually do new things that legitimately stand out even after the series has moved on.
@Bolt_Strike I'm starting to get the impression that you simply aren't very familiar with DKC2 and 3.
Bonus Rooms aren't just for the number percentile next to your save file; they're more like getting power stars in SM64.
You need all the Kremlin or Bear Coins to get all the last levels and make it to the final confrontation K.Rool.
DKC2 and 3 are essentially 2D collectathons.
It's not really the same situation. The Kremlin/Bear coins aren't required for progression in the same way as the Power Stars in Super Mario 64, they're just required for bonuses. You can play DK and just reach the goal in every levels to get to the final boss, the extra levels and bosses are just extras.
Even with that said, switching and throwing your partner are essential for making progress through the game. You can't call something that's essential to the progression of a game "trivial" within the context of the game.
No, it's not. There's few if any situations where you need to throw your partner to progress. The core of the game doesn't utilize them.
Animal Buddies appear in a very large portion of the game's stages, making them something far more than gimmicks. They're more like stage set pieces; and again, they're necessary for progression.
Call them whatever you want they're still not that important.
If you think a videogame's theme and setting aren't important to your enjoyment of the game, then that's your personal taste. That doesn't help your argument that these games are essentially obsolete.
I never said they were obsolete, I said they've just been done to death so many times that they're unexciting. Settings and themes don't really affect this, it's the core formulas and game mechanics that do.
You aren't breaking any rules within the game by wall jumping well. The game expects you to wall jump.
If the game intended you to only play a single way in a single specific order, then they should punish you for not doing so instead of rewarding you.
The game probably does not expect you to wall jump past obstacles that traditionally require a certain ability to do so though. And they can't punish that if they don't anticipate players doing that. Notice how more recent Metroid games have little to no sequence breaks. That's because the developers got smarter, figured out what could or could not be done with exploits like Wall Jumping and Shinesparking, and designed the rooms appropriately to prevent you from using those tricks to skip sections of the game. Same thing also happens with Prime 1 in the Prime series, Prime 1 had a lot of glitches you could exploit to sequence break in that game but the later versions of the game and its sequels patched all of those things out. IDK what they wanted you to use Wall Jumps for, but clearly not for skipping powerups in the game.
But with that said, let me just pretend that you are correct with all of what you said about the "sole intended experience of Super Metroid" for a moment.
... You're still incorrect to say that Super Metroid railroads you as much as Zero Mission and Fusion.
Both Zero Mission and Fusion indicate exactly where you must go next on your map.
Super Metroid does not; you have to find out yourself
That's not really a gameplay change though, that's the game providing you a hint system to tell you where to go. The actual level design is still similar in terms of linearity.
Lastly, with your argument about 3D vs 2D entries; I couldn't disagree with you any more.
If anything, the 2D Metroid vs Metroid Prime are the most different in play style, not Mario.
And no, they... Just don't share the core gameplay. The mere fact that you are challenged with moving within a 3D environment fundamentally changes how you play the entire game.
Yeah no, moving in a 3D environment doesn't fundamentally change anything, the games still feel the same because the core mechanics are still there. Mario still has you running and jumping through levels, collecting coins, and defeating enemies. Zelda still has you exploring a massive overworld looking for dungeons and using items to explore the overworld. Metroid has you explore room based maps looking for new abilities to open up even more rooms. The 3D movement doesn't really have much of an effect, certainly not enough to throw them out as being completely different.
There's no place for Telltale's kinds of games anymore 'cause their boundaries are laughably ancient. They're retro-games that go about being products differently.
Although, I must admit, that something in me still wanted to punch you as moments in The Walking Dead's 1st series really worked for me (regardless of whether those moments were drawn from labeled-hats based on feedback).
What have you been playing of theirs?
The Wolf Among Us, the first episode of Tales in the Borderlands, and...wow, not much else in their post-Walking Dead library, now that I look at it. Jurassic Park's still kind of like the newer ones, but apparently a lot of people thught that was garbage. Most of their stuff doesn't even interest me from a conceptual level (I hate anything with Zombies as a central focus, Game of Thrones is simultaneously dense and boring for me, and their Batman game just looks terrible. Probably the same artist as The Wolf Among Us, but the artsyle just doesn't work), so I haven't even really bothered with the rest. I suppose I was being unfair before, but I'm still not convinced this style could really work, or if it did, that it would work for me and my tastes in stories.
Granted, I wouldn't have to worry about it if they just made something that felt more like a game. Puzzle Agent didn't have the best writing, but I didn't care, because it was fun! Same with Sam & Max to a degree. The writing was still important, but I still felt engaged by having areas to explore and complex puzzles to solve, and the humor was more interesting because I had to work to get it. Working on a hard puzzle was less frustrating because I was still getting something out of it thanks to the quips, etc...I dunno, I really don't agree that this old style have no life left in it. The fact that old-school PC Adventure games seem to be making a resurgance definitely points to that.
@Snaplocket Skyrim is a great game but imho it is at the same time overrated compared to the previous TES game, Oblivion. Oblivion is imho a lot better. I have played it on PS3 but unfortunately right now I have it only on pc, and on pc there's no way to (properly) play it with a gamepad, so I prefer playing Skyrim. I think I'd be still playing Oblivion a lot more than Skyrim if it had full gamepad support, but since only Skyrim has full gamepad support on pc I ended up playing Skyrim a huge amount of hours and almost dismiss Oblivion. Skyrim is a great game, but really I can't like it as much as I will always love Oblivion.
Elder Scrolls as a series imho is underrated, not overrated.
Ok probably "underplayed" would be more appropriate you are right. Except Skyrim as far as I know it is played by a huge amount of people. Previous ones were rather "niche games" as far as I know. @Snaplocket
Elder Scorlls: Oblivion was actually a big hit and roughly as popular as Skyrim was. Like GTA3, though, it's long been overshadowed by its successor.
@Snaplocket You do have a point, they're meant to capture that blockbuster movie feel. Granted, I feel like Uncharted was the only one series I've played that really nailed that, while others, like Gears of War, just have worthless plots and gameplay that feels like its on-rails to a degree.
Yeah, but what about Oblivion's NPCs, dungeons, and level design? Everything in Skyrim was just interesting enough that it felt worthwhile. The overworld wasn't just nondescript land, it had bluffs with hidden treasure chests and cliffside fortresses.
I really enjoyed Oblivion and it's what got me into TES in middle school, but it's pretty hard going back after playing Skyrim. I feel like Skyrim was the last big RPG/open world that lived up to the hype in every aspect. The classless progression was so intuitive and rewarding, it had so many quests even outside of the radiant stuff. Like, Skyrim had a just incredible diversity of stuff in it even for a Bethesda RPG. And the world is the most consistently rewarding and interesting I've ever explored. So many secrets, loot piles, jumping puzzles, and pieces of environmental storytelling were baked into it.
Probably every damn Final Fantasy game ever released, considering the amount of fandom and hype that comes with these games, it's not difficult to say it is overrated. Most of them just come across as cheesy to me, FF7 being the most overrated one of them, with a mediocre written story that is a lot more simple that people admit. Battle mechanics is always what have been the best part of those games for me.
Oh, and Horizon Zero Dawn, is really overrated, the story is bland, the characters aren't that interesting, and it makes the same mistake that most ubisoft games does, a map crowded with icons.
@TAndvig That's completely fair. Personally, I have a ton of fondness for the series, particularly those from FFVII to FFX, as I played them more or less around the time they came out (and nostalgia is a powerful lens), but I completely get why they would leave others cold.
I have to ask, though, do you like any JRPGs? The Final Fantasy games are very much classics of a particular type, so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the wider genre. Dragon Quest? Phantasy Star? Lunar? Tales? Ys? Heroes?
@Krull I don't have a big fondness for JRPG's, but i did enjoy playing and finishing Xenoblade Chronicles, Tales of Symphonia, Project Octodad Traveler(demo), Eternal Sonata, Persona 4 and 5, one of the etrian odyssey games on 3ds.
Never played any of those you listed up except for Dragon Quest and some of the games in the Tales series, Tales of Symphonia is probably my biggest favorite, because of the nostalgic attachment i have to it.
The Dragon Quest series, I only played the first one on snes and one of the games that came to the DS.
I am more of a Western RPG guy, with a big love for cRPGs, so it has a lot to do with JRPG's not being 100% my thing, but i can fully enjoy them as any other fan, it's just that it's downsides is harder for me to ignore, it seems to me they copy a lot from anime culture, like melodramatic characters and gestures, some cheesy things you would find in any anime, dramatic haircuts and styles, and so on.
But i will get Xenoblade 2, because i love the first game.
Everyone loves GTA5 and I say nope that's an overrated game.
My favorite games get called overrated that they have to derail the thread into oblivion with their butthurt comments.
@AlienX Unleashed will forever be my favourite - loved the day time stages.
Overrated games?
Call of Duty - I'd like to see new settings, better writing.
Halo (4 and on)- I think 3 was the perfect end for the series, while I enjoyed 4 to an extent, 5 wasn't my cup of tea. Shame, as Buck was a favourite of mine from ODST.
Fallout 4 - NV has the better writing. 4 has great gunplay, but watered down mechanics and a plot that is similar to 3.
“To every man his little cross. Till he dies. And is forgotten.”― Samuel Beckett
“One day at a time, sweet Jesus. Whoever wrote that one hadn’t a clue. A day is a f**kin’ eternity”
― Roddy Doyle.
Fallout 4. I found it very uninteresting and boring. I played it for a while, but me being a person who loses interest quickly, the game just didn't offer enough to keep me intrigued in it. I also found it look very ehh as well.
@Snaplocket Not Fallout 3, but I did play Skyrim a while ago. I have similar feelings to Skyrim that I do to Fallout 4. In that I lost interest in it after a bit of playing it with my sister, and for similar reasons to Fallout 4. I've been thinking about giving Skyrim another go, but I'm hesitant as I don't find it appealing.
Hollow Knight joined my list. I enjoyed it a great deal and the world is definitely great, but best Metroidvania? Well, it's definitely great, but I wouldn't say best. I feel like upgrades come far too slowly across the game, which makes progression seem relatively slow for a Metroidvania. I tried a new save file after The Radiance and I just couldn't do it because the speed was just too slow.
Metroid, Xenoblade, EarthBound shill
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Upon clearing Super Mario Odyssey some time ago, and 100%ing the game, I felt quite underwhelmed when comparing it to other 3D Mario games. It seemed insubstantial in content when compared to, say, Mario Galaxy. I also felt that many of Mario's maneuvers were designed for speedrunning, which conflicted with the collectathon nature of the game. I also felt that the bevvy of references to other games detracted from the overall experience, as it came across as nostalgia pandering. Looking back, the game, especially the early areas did not contain very much intricate platforming at all, and I felt that the game only really got started past New Donk City, which sadly was about where it ended, adding to my earlier statement about it being insubstantial in content. I would personally rate it at an 8/10, and do not think that Breath of the Wild, which I consider to be a 10/10, is comparable with Mario Odyssey. Does anyone else agree with me about Mario Odyssey being rated too highly?
Just your everday ninja, who may also be an ace trainer.
@NinjaAceTrainer I do agree, but I should caveat that by saying I've only played 5-10 hours so far, and have only been to sand, forest and Lake kingdoms so far.
I don't love the way the camera works. I hate the use of half-tone transparency, it's so ugly and happens all the time.
It's a great game, but it hasn't wowed me. Though the lack of true multiplayer makes a big difference to me. SM3DW is still my favorite at this stage.
You guys had me at blood and semen.
What better way to celebrate than firing something out of the pipe?
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