No, murder was sin beforehand too, and they may have had their consciences pricked even before knowing about Jesus, but they then realised more of the enormity of sin when they did.
killing in that fashion may have been justified by their prior system of morals and beliefs. call it sin all you like, but what is sin to you may not have been sin to them before they were converted.
Yeah, defense is not murder though. And the people who know were the people who were there and had it documented, if you want to believe even that.
but who were those doing the documenting? biased missionaries? scientists believing they were doing a favor to the poor misguided peoples of the wilderness by bringing them civilization?
Sorry, but the 'system' is not mine. I don't want anyone to follow me. I would just direct their thoughts to their Maker first.
I meant 'your' system in the sense of the system you follow. I did not mean it to say that you were the focus of what you believe. Between this example and the frog/child one, I'm starting to get tired of the hair-splitting.
True. They could still look at a reflection of themselves in water and realise that everything around them had been there before they were, and know that no human or themselves made it or them. And so he can cry out in his heart, "I know I didn't make myself, and I know that nobody here made the things around me... I don't know where you are, or who you are.. but... help me!" And God will respond.
... and how do you know that a native didn't do just that, and that an entire panthenon of gods weren't built from that one experience? You are trying to say that ultimately an isolated group of humans in the jungles of wherever would be suddenly struck by the revelation that Jesus is their savior (as opposed to some native entity/entities), when in reality there is no telling how such an encounter would be interpreted or what would come of it afterward. While it is great that you hold such strong beliefs, I do not echo them.
Interesting thing to say, since the disciples of Jesus were very few in number, had no temporal, worldly power, and yet Jesus' message which they bore spread all over the empire and throughout the world.
but the message does not control the world or how the world works. you may believe it to be so, and i will admit that certain aspects of society have been influenced by christian beliefs, but society is not dominated nor its rules dictated by christianity alone, and society (western society, anyway; i can't really speak for eastern, i suppose) is still changing even now to accept things that go against certain strong christian beliefs (homosexuality, for one, though there are people who call themselves christians and support it, and i've heard christian arguments both for and against accepting it, so your mileage may vary on that one).
also, @J-Man, i think i posted my myspace in the 'contact info' thread. just so you know, though, I'm married, lol.
BEST THREAD EVER future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
EDIT: Just delete it NL, please! You know its only gonna cause trouble eventually. It's getting close to the weekend and I may 'accidently' post something whilst 'accidently' drunk! (Don't worry, we'll come down on you if you do )
but who were those doing the documenting? biased missionaries? scientists believing they were doing a favor to the poor misguided peoples of the wilderness by bringing them civilization?
I meant 'your' system in the sense of the system you follow. I did not mean it to say that you were the focus of what you believe. Between this example and the frog/child one, I'm starting to get tired of the hair-splitting.
I don't mean to hair-split. I just want clear communication.
... and how do you know that a native didn't do just that, and that an entire panthenon of gods weren't built from that one experience? You are trying to say that ultimately an isolated group of humans in the jungles of wherever would be suddenly struck by the revelation that Jesus is their savior (as opposed to some native entity/entities), when in reality there is no telling how such an encounter would be interpreted or what would come of it afterward. While it is great that you hold such strong beliefs, I do not echo them.
No, they would not be struck by the realisation that Jesus is their saviour. What I'm saying is that they would realise that there is a Being above nature. And that this Being must have created them and it (the Earth, sky, etc.). The pantheon of gods that you claim they would worship instead would just be mere representations of nature (which has been the case in history where human nature suppressed the truth about God that is inherent in them, and focuses on the creation as creator instead. Kinda like the belief in evolution). And of course there is the worship associated with Nimrod, Semiramis, that sprung into sun-worship, moon worship (Allah was a moon god)... etc.
Your view of these things will be determined by your starting assumptions. If you assume that the God doesn't exist, nor anything supernatural at all, then you have to come up with an explanation for the origin of all things, including us. And by the way, evolution is an old religion. In fact, you can find it paralleled in the Kabbala, which is rabidly against Jesus.
@Nathan: i do not believe the hypothetical native would have reacted in the same manner you think he would have, and i do not believe that his own beliefs that he came up with all on his own were/are any less important or socially valid than the ones you and others like you hold today. as there is nothing you or anyone else can say to change my mind, and nothing i have said has similarly impacted you, any further discussion here is time i could be better spending leveling my party, getting to Monstro Town, past the Troopa wall and the Smilax, and then climbing those stupid spring-looking vine-things up into Nimbus Land. :3
i've said my peace, and i won't be returning to this discussion. I also will not be bringing any of this up in other threads, and i'm cool with everyone who has posted here in this one, including you. enjoy your night.
BEST THREAD EVER future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
Even if theblackdragon will not be returning here, I feel the need to refute her responce to my last post.
About divorce: In days gone by, people were more careful and sesible about marriage in the first place, because they believed it was a Holy institution (which it is, of course, set up by God starting with Adam and Eve). People didn't rush into destructive relationships so often, and were able to tell the difference between a horrible marriage they SHOULD get out of and one that just needs some work from both sides. It is important to remember that America was founded by Christians, for Christians, so the modern trends away from that should obviously mean something.
As for the crimes: I was comparing now with 100 years ago, not now with 15-20 years ago, which is all those charts covered.
I hadn't planned on replying again myself, honestly, but the nature of the responce I received made it seem necessary, as there was clearly a misunderstanding about my previous post.
My Backloggery Updated sporadically. Got my important online ID's on there, anyway. :P
It is important to remember that America was founded by Christians, for Christians, so the modern trends away from that should obviously mean something.
Those who insist that America was founded as a Christian nation run roughshod over the historical record. They use the words of the Founding Fathers to support Republican jeremiads on the moral decay of American life. If only this country could return to its Christian roots, they say nostalgically, everything would be okay.
And how do they demonstrate that America was founded as a Christian nation? By selectively choosing texts from the writings of the Founders without any effort to explore them in the context of the 18th-century world in which they were written. Just because John Adams and George Washington quoted from the Bible or made reference to God does not mean that they were trying to construct a Christian nation. Granted, the Founding Fathers were the products of a Christian culture, but most of them were never comfortable with the beliefs that defined this culture. Very few of them would qualify for membership in today's evangelical churches.
@Nathan: i do not believe the hypothetical native would have reacted in the same manner you think he would have, and i do not believe that his own beliefs that he came up with all on his own were/are any less important or socially valid than the ones you and others like you hold today. as there is nothing you or anyone else can say to change my mind, and nothing i have said has similarly impacted you, any further discussion here is time i could be better spending leveling my party, getting to Monstro Town, past the Troopa wall and the Smilax, and then climbing those stupid spring-looking vine-things up into Nimbus Land. :3
i've said my peace, and i won't be returning to this discussion. I also will not be bringing any of this up in other threads, and i'm cool with everyone who has posted here in this one, including you. enjoy your night.
It is important to remember that America was founded by Christians, for Christians, so the modern trends away from that should obviously mean something.
Those who insist that America was founded as a Christian nation run roughshod over the historical record. They use the words of the Founding Fathers to support Republican jeremiads on the moral decay of American life. If only this country could return to its Christian roots, they say nostalgically, everything would be okay.
And how do they demonstrate that America was founded as a Christian nation? By selectively choosing texts from the writings of the Founders without any effort to explore them in the context of the 18th-century world in which they were written. Just because John Adams and George Washington quoted from the Bible or made reference to God does not mean that they were trying to construct a Christian nation. Granted, the Founding Fathers were the products of a Christian culture, but most of them were never comfortable with the beliefs that defined this culture. Very few of them would qualify for membership in today's evangelical churches.
I've honestly tried to stay away from the debate going on here, but those whom claim America was clearly founded as a Christian nation hits one of my pet peeves. It just shows incredible historical naivete. Nanaki sums it up nicely, I believe.
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
There are 4,200 base religions around the world. One base religion, such as christianity, has 39,000 sects of varying practice. World wide the total number of religious variations is infinite because they are being formed and changing all the time.
I can tolerate them all except those idiots who believe their religion is the one true religion.
I know I'm a little late to be responding to this since I didn't have time to reply yesterday, but I still think it is worth posting. I am a Christian and a Young-Earth Creationist, so I agree with the points that you are trying to debate...BUT, I think that the WAY you are debating them is doing more harm than good...
You are using "evidence" that is either easily debunked or has been disproven, you are directing people to websites that are not professional and don't cite sources, and when you are debating with people that don't believe in the Bible, you can't use the Bible as a primary proof.
That is all I'm going to say on this matter because A) I don't have time to participate in a debate here and B) I don't think this is the place for it, but I did feel it was worth pointing that out. If anyone is interested in debating these issues, I will again suggest taking the debate to the www.rr-bb.com Apologetics forum where that type of debate is welcomed.
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Topic: What are your religious views?
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