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Topic: Opinions of PSP2 (NGP)

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armoredghor

281. Posted:

Out of curiosity. What do you define 'premium' as in terms of games and hardware because that's a real defining term in gaming along with hardcore @Waltzelf

armoredghor

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gatygun

282. Posted:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

@gatygun-
I'm pretty sure the iphone costs more than that to make, because not even Apple employees can get a discount on an iphone. If they were selling them at double the cost of making them, I think they'd allow their own members to get at least a little off the top. Besides, according to what you say the NGP has about 8x the processors of the iphone. Such technology would cost ALOT more than what the iphone has. I'm not saying 8x more, but maybe 4x or 5x. Add to that the fact that the NGP also has possibly up to a GB of memory, and 3G, and a MUCH larger screen, and all of the stuff that makes it a PSP. Even starting at $170, it would almost definitely be over $300, and I'm still pretty sure it's starting at closer to $300...Also, how can you be sure that the 3DS is so cheap to make? It does actually have new technology in it after all.

BTW, didn't know that you worked at the R&D department of Sony. I mean, how else would you know anything about their costs and pricing plans? It wouldn't be the first time Sony put out an outrageously expensive system after all.

I'm still expecting 2 models, 1 under $400 and 1 over. But, then again, I DON'T work at the R&D department at Sony.

Do you read at all on what i said? try to read it again, all your questions are basically already answered.
the speeds from the cpu's are just massive faster each core then the iphone version, it doesn't got 8 those cores.
Have you got any idea who those ipods and iphones make?, poor people that live in complete iphone flats. They are almost slaves. Even if they wanted to get 1 for 100 dollar, they couldn't even pay it. And there is no reason why, those things get sold to your own personal for a cheaper price to start with.

about the 300 dollar/euro. didn't i stated that in my reaction?

besides that, there are enough shops that know the raw price of the product ( big telephone company's for example ).

3DS isn't state of the art tech, thats the whole point. If they would have gone with the tegra 2 it would be state of the art. but the pica is just a weak GPU solution compared to what company's already offer at this date. hell the tegra 2 is already 2x faster, while next month the tegra 3 is probably getting announced.

Pica200 version listed at the dmp site ( highest one ) pushes 15,3 million polygons. ( http://www.dmprof.com/english/e_products/e_pica_200/ )
(There is even a lite version that contains a even lesser amount of polygons 12million.
I really hope for nintendo that they get a 35million version one, that isn't listed on that site.)

which is there top version. Now nintendo could have some special made version of it, but from all the latest reports it would make perfectly sense for them to jump on a model that is already from the year 2006, which basically is fased out in the mobile industrial for years. therefor the contract with pica can be really profittable. The 2x arm chips are even older then the a8 cortex core. which means 2 generation behind. The memory, well i really am suprised that company's actually still make such low versions of it. Nobody is buying those chips anymore for anything, therefor probably a budget mem.

Battery packed with the 3DS = only 1300mah, which means dam cheap battery.

The big bucks probably are payed for the 3D screen, but that isn't going to cost them more then 50 dollars each for sure, because through latest reports, a oled screen ( which is far more expensive then a 3d screen ) cost around the 50-100 dollar to implant.

So in other words. its a perfect example of how nintendo delivered for 325-350 dollar ( europe ), a basic budget device.

Edited on by gatygun

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gatygun

283. Posted:

bboy2970 wrote:

gatygun wrote:

bboy2970 wrote:

All those specs sound great and all, but that is EXACTLY why this thing is gonna be priced sky high! It simply packs too much not to be. The ONLY way the NGP isn't gonna be priced beyond success is if Sony takes a big loss on every unit sold. However, I did read somewhere that Sony specifically said they wouldn't be losing money on each NGP sold so...I really don't see how this device is gonna be anything below 400 bucks.

Didn't know that you worked at the R&D department of sony.
I wouldn't be suprised if this thing is costing exactly teh same if not 50 euro higher "only" then the 3DS.
From latest reports the iphone 4 only costs about 170 dollar to create for example. Which has more hardware going on then the 3DS already. Besides that, last reports noted that the 3DS got sold to shops for 171 dollar. this means that the 3DS probably costing on hardware level around the 100 euro ( i wouldn't be suprised if that actually is lower then that. Nintendo needs to make a huge profit it on it.

Even 3x more costing 3DS hardware could still be sold without a loss for under the 300 dollar/euro.

Sony can even throw in a loss, because handhelds isn't there main business. Therefor 300 dollar or even 250 dollar would make a hell lot sense to me?

Quite wrong sir, I do not work in Sony's R&D department. I am only 18 so that would be kind of surprising if I did. My guess of 400 dollars is just that, a GUESS! I'm sure your statement would have slightly more validity if I had said, "STOP THE PRESSES!! the Sony NGP will absolutely, indisputably, no doubt, cost 400 dollars!! You heard it here first folks!" Unfortunately for your comment, I did not say that so I would appreciate you keeping sarcastic comments to yourself if you please. Thanks bud! :D

read your own post, you actually did say it. therefor my sarcastic comment was totally vailid. Bad attempt to recover yourself tho.

gatygun

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theblackdragon

284. Posted:

Drop the sarcasm, it's not necessary.

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TrueWiiMaster

285. Posted:

@gatygun-
You are COMPLETELY off about the Apple employees. The employee I know gets a discount on everything Apple makes EXCEPT for the iphone, because going any lower on that would put Apple at a loss (at least that's what she said, and she actually IS an Apple employee, and as such has far more authority to talk about their products than you do). I don't know how much Apple pays their employees, but that's hardly relevant anyway.

Now, maybe I misunderstood you, but in your earlier post you DID say that the NGP had 4 cores to its processor, each twice as powerful as the iphone's 1. It's possible I'm confused (I don't follow computer stuff) but wouldn't that mean 8x the power of the iphone? I mean, that's the arithmetical way...

I'm also curious as to where you get your information. Seeing as how the price for the 3DS was announced only 2 weeks ago for the west, I find it unlikely that we would already know exactly what it takes to make a 3DS. The same goes for the NGP, whose specs were only just announced less than a week ago. How do you already know what everything costs?

I would also like to mention that, though not as powerful as the NGP, the 3DS does use "state of the art tech" in that its 3D is indeed "state of the art". As far as I know, the only "state of the art tech" the NGP uses is the OLED screen, the powerful processors, and the 3G, which will most likely cost a lot extra. The NGP may have more "state of the art tech" in it, but that's why it will almost definitely be more expensive. In the end it's only real catch will be its amazing graphics, which will be countered by the 3DS's incredible 3D, though less detailed, graphics.

You said that the 3DS was sold to stores at a price of about $170 (which I still want to know the source for), but even if that's true, the stores are the one's raking in an $80 profit per system, not Nintendo. I know the MSRP, but that is for the stores who obviously want to make a profit off what they sell. This concept would apply to the NGP as well. Even if it were sold to the stores for $250 (which I still HIGHLY doubt) the stores would not be happy unless they rose the price so they could make substantial profit.

I still stand with my price guesses. 2 models, 1 under $400 and 1 over $400.

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Token_Girl

286. Posted:

The iPhone is sold at a loss (at least in the US). That is why they make you buy with a two year contract. That's where they make the rest of their money.

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Kyloctopus

287. Posted:

http://flipnote.hatena.com/587BB2A05101623F@DSi/movie/01623F_...

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TrueWiiMaster

288. Posted:

@Koops3-
ummm... whatever link you just posted isn't working...at least not for me...

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Bankai

289. Posted:

Token Girl wrote:

The iPhone is sold at a loss (at least in the US). That is why they make you buy with a two year contract. That's where they make the rest of their money.

Is it the retailer, or Apple, that sells the iPhone at a loss, though?

I honestly don't know this.

As for the argument over price - I think you're both missing a massive part of the costing of technology. The raw stuff that goes into the console is one thing, but the price of the console also needs to shoulder R & D, marketing and staff expenses. One hour of development time in a R & D is expensive - both the 3DS and NGP would have had many hours of R & D.

Scale is also important. I imagine Sony can sell NGP units at a slightly lower margin (or break even, or at a loss if need be), because Sony also sells TVs, music players, computers, and a host of other consumer technologies. Taking a loss in one division is less costly for Sony.

If Nintendo doesn't make a comfortable profit on the 3DS, then Nintendo is in financial trouble.

There's a great deal more that goes into the costing of any technology than the raw price of chips and pretty screens. Guessing prices based purely on the hardware is a flawed practice, at the best of times.

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Slapshot

290. Posted:

I've read that Sony will sell the NGP at a loss, and I'm sure at first they will, but then again information on NGP has been everywhere and what is reliable and what isn't is questionable.

NGP is going to be a powerful beast of a handheld, just as the PS3 was a monster of a home console. I own 2 PS3s in my home, but I was out-priced by the original cost of PS3, and I'm a big Sony fan and purchasing a PS3 at launch wan't even an option for me. I don't think Sony is going to make that mistake again, and they have already shot down the $450 USD price and came back with "It will be affordable" statement.

Supposedly there will be two models, one with 3G and the other without. My guess is that the option without 3G will sit around $300-$350 USD. That is my guess, and for the record, I overpriced the 3DS with a guess of $300 USD. ;)

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gatygun

291. Posted:

TrueWiiMaster wrote:

@gatygun-
You are COMPLETELY off about the Apple employees. The employee I know gets a discount on everything Apple makes EXCEPT for the iphone, because going any lower on that would put Apple at a loss (at least that's what she said, and she actually IS an Apple employee, and as such has far more authority to talk about their products than you do). I don't know how much Apple pays their employees, but that's hardly relevant anyway.

Now, maybe I misunderstood you, but in your earlier post you DID say that the NGP had 4 cores to its processor, each twice as powerful as the iphone's 1. It's possible I'm confused (I don't follow computer stuff) but wouldn't that mean 8x the power of the iphone? I mean, that's the arithmetical way...

I'm also curious as to where you get your information. Seeing as how the price for the 3DS was announced only 2 weeks ago for the west, I find it unlikely that we would already know exactly what it takes to make a 3DS. The same goes for the NGP, whose specs were only just announced less than a week ago. How do you already know what everything costs?

I would also like to mention that, though not as powerful as the NGP, the 3DS does use "state of the art tech" in that its 3D is indeed "state of the art". As far as I know, the only "state of the art tech" the NGP uses is the OLED screen, the powerful processors, and the 3G, which will most likely cost a lot extra. The NGP may have more "state of the art tech" in it, but that's why it will almost definitely be more expensive. In the end it's only real catch will be its amazing graphics, which will be countered by the 3DS's incredible 3D, though less detailed, graphics.

You said that the 3DS was sold to stores at a price of about $170 (which I still want to know the source for), but even if that's true, the stores are the one's raking in an $80 profit per system, not Nintendo. I know the MSRP, but that is for the stores who obviously want to make a profit off what they sell. This concept would apply to the NGP as well. Even if it were sold to the stores for $250 (which I still HIGHLY doubt) the stores would not be happy unless they rose the price so they could make substantial profit.

I still stand with my price guesses. 2 models, 1 under $400 and 1 over $400.

What are you talking about actually with a apple employee? a shop worker? or a company worker ( that creates those stuff on hardware level ) "shitty english cant explain it better". because i quess we got a miscommunication. As your friend is probably a american and not eastern kind of figure.

If so, both will have no clue on what hardware costs, i scout the internet for all kinds of hardware solutions myself basically already for years, and know what other tech costs. therefor its simple to see what a new kind of technologie will cost as production cost, and what older tech costs to produce. ( so thats basically a no ).

I quess you are talking about somebody that works in a selling apple shop, well those people are already getting charged full price, which have nothing to do with technologie or any production costs behind it.

For example, nintendo sells there 3DS for 171 euro/dollar towards "major sale company's" that doesn't mean that the product costs 171 dollar to produce. And thats exactly where i was talking about. Same with the iphone.

They can charge in a shop 3000 euro for my part, but that doesn't mean that the technology = worth it, or costing it.

a single core = stronger then a iphone 4 core, it goes up towards 2x as fast through optimized newer version of the chip. How much those 4 cores combined will function in the end is unknown with the data that is provided at this date. The reality is that the cores itselfs makes the device 4-8x faster. depends on the software that runs on it. Which probably will aim more towards the 8 because of the dedicated hardware and low level api programming allowing ontop of it and higher core cloak speeds.

The 3DS information isn't something new, pica (example) already visited major markets years before the 3DS contract. they where already known for years in the market. Because they made relative low tech hardware, the tech overall wasn't announced on a big level. Lets not forget that the cpu pica200 was impressive at the year 2006, because of its low energie concumption + fast speeds. But those speeds are already long outdated. The gpu got used in many devices, and the mem is simple limited towards realistic standards. ( not talking about pica inside a dedicated gaming device )

For example, 5 years ago, type 1 hardware got released, at this date type 6 hardware got released, 3DS hardware matches type 4 hardware = that price. There are hardware segments. You can easily check to already existing hardware what the costs of the productions are.

Which means if the 3DS uses 96 ram internal memory, they can either have 3 different types of ram that are available on the market ( nobody is for example making those ram modules anymore "even while its 64/32 module" ) therefor even if nintendo doesn't announce the costs, a other company already did it for them in there device. The ram is limited towards 3 types that they can use, all with there own price tech. but even the highest costing hardware isn't costing much to start with. Therefor even without knowing the exact type of memory. you can already calculated the costs of a device.

3D screen is nice and stuff, but they are not the only ones in the market with it. Sharp is there screen provider, samsung, sony all got there own versions of it. and sell it onto for example a camera. the camera company states to its investors what the costs are and tada, you got the price of your 3D screen. Even if nobody gave it out, you can simple just calculated the company's profits on a new type of product, calculate the other costs of the device and end up with the remaining price.

The exact price is unkown. but you can always see in comperation with other company's what they deliver. what the price is going to be. There for you can already see what hardware costs or will cost when the specs are given out. unless its a really exclusive deal. but even then prices will remain on a normal level.

a 4x faster product doesn't direclty mean a 4x higher price, mostly it means that the price can be bumped up with 25% unless they throw out a massive profitting deal. which for example for a generation of devices = ideal.

Still for every company its different, but thats why i stated i dont see the NGP cost more then 300 dollar to create.

3G isn't state of the art, its old tech. but still pricey non the less. ( therefor its a exclusive feature on a different device )
wireless N protocol chip = state of the art that the NGP uses.
the cpu is state of the art
the gpu = not even on the market yet, so more state of the art is not possible.
memory = state of the art if it comes on speeds of it.
screen = state of the art, for the 3DS as PSP2
Yes the NGP has more state of the art stuff indeed, like you say it will be more expensive for the company to produce.
That doesn't directly mean that its more expensive for the consumer.

To give you a better sight for example with a explanation.
( uff how to keep this simple )
sony creates oled screen
sony goes onto the market with the oled screen
the costs = 10 million screens sell for 200 euro each.
making profits = after the 10 million sales for 200 euro each.
Company's want 5 million screens from sony. Sony says well that 400 euro a screen. Because thats what it costed us.
Company's say, samsung offers us them for 300 euro each.
Sony makes a deal for 299 euro.

Current price oled = 299 euro. ( even while the material costs are only 10-50 euro )
Sony makes a lose at the end of the year on that department.
NGP gets created = oled throwed in to promote there screen on a higher note ( problem costs )
Sony decides to only charge the production costs of material 10-50 euro
Other company's see oled screen on the psp2. with reactions OMG OLED SCREEN sick.
More company's contact sony, ask to the screens.
Sony says : 299 dollar each
Company's say : but samsung got it for 200 euro.
Sony sell 5 milllion more of those screens for 100 euro to the company's
Sony makes a profit.
In the meanwhile sony keeps producing the screens for there own product NGP.

This is basically how a company works.
Sony creates there own screen, therefor the oled screen doesn't need to cost a lot.
Nintendo on the other hand, needs to buy 3D screen from sharp ( which equals company, in my example ). Ontop of that nintendo needs to make a profit over that hardware.

And this is exactly why, hardware for sony can cost a hell lot lesser then for example a nintendo device.

I wouldn't be suprised if the ngp only costed 250/300 euro to start with. But this really depends on sony itself. And sony will scout out the market for it. They will let you pay 1000 dollar for the device if they wanted. But because of nintendo they simple cant. And because of sony nintendo simple cant throw in ridicilous high prices as 300+ euro for there handheld.

About the price comment of yours, i know what you mean, you basically say that if the hardware costs 300 dollar to create and sony ships it towards shops, the shops will sell it for 400 dollar in order to make a profit.
Which is true what you state. But sony could alter that fact by undercutting themselfs the first generation, which they pritty much always do.
For example a device gets created for 300 dollar gets sold for 380 dollar for example ( because those sale company's need to make a profit of it ). Sony can simple just deliver the device for 220 euro and say towards the public, this thing will cost 300 euro/dollar. And order shops to sell it for this. Some shops will skip it, but bigger ones not.

Now sony is losing 80 dollars each machine they created right? Which is true (first generation of hardware). a year later for example the cpu/gpu/mem will drop in prices by alot ( as everything does ) sony will make a smaller slicker version of what they get now and boom. they price it a little bit higher. but thardware in it could be way cheaper.

For example, the psp go that sold for 250 euro, probably only costed them what? 50 dollars to create? the tech inside it was ancient. Now the PSP GO didn't sell well, because the no UMD was just horrible. But the other revisions did. they simple earn the money back from what they lost and eventually make a little profit on it by other stuff like licenses etc. More screen sales etc.
Sony doesn't need to make a profit. Because every year multiple departments lose money and gain money. If the company is running its good. thats how all company's work. Sometimes you need to lose money in order to make it.

( my english is utter shit so probably half of it didn't made any sense tho. )

anyway my 50 cents.

Lets just agree to disagree

@ token girl

quoted:
"The iPhone is sold at a loss (at least in the US). That is why they make you buy with a two year contract. That's where they make the rest of their money."

No that doesn't work like that, a company that sells the iphones, need to pay the full bill with everything included towards iphone. they can make contracts with iphone to reduce it a bit if they buy a ton of those devices ( like any normal company does ).

In order for that company to appeal towards the constumer, they bind you with contracts that eventually pay the device back. As any mobile company does. Iphone isn't sold by apple with a lose for sure.

Edited on by gatygun

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gatygun

292. Posted:

WaltzElf wrote:

Token+Girl wrote:

The iPhone is sold at a loss (at least in the US). That is why they make you buy with a two year contract. That's where they make the rest of their money.

Is it the retailer, or Apple, that sells the iPhone at a loss, though?

I honestly don't know this.

As for the argument over price - I think you're both missing a massive part of the costing of technology. The raw stuff that goes into the console is one thing, but the price of the console also needs to shoulder R & D, marketing and staff expenses. One hour of development time in a R & D is expensive - both the 3DS and NGP would have had many hours of R & D.

Scale is also important. I imagine Sony can sell NGP units at a slightly lower margin (or break even, or at a loss if need be), because Sony also sells TVs, music players, computers, and a host of other consumer technologies. Taking a loss in one division is less costly for Sony.

If Nintendo doesn't make a comfortable profit on the 3DS, then Nintendo is in financial trouble.

There's a great deal more that goes into the costing of any technology than the raw price of chips and pretty screens. Guessing prices based purely on the hardware is a flawed practice, at the best of times.

About the last line of your comment, ( other ones i clearly agree with ofcourse if you read my other just posted post ) guessing prices of hardware to create = valid if the company is owned by the same company.

Even while people keep mentioning how failed the ps3 project is etc, people seem to forget that the technology isn't costing much for sony itself rather then for other company's to addopt sony stuff. even with r&d costs included.

for example a blue ray drive could be seen as extreme expensive. While for sony its nothing more then a dvd drive expansion. Because they basically own everything around it.

gatygun

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TrueWiiMaster

293. Posted:

@gatygun-
I don't really see how you can say you have more authority on the cost of an iphone than an employee (and yes, she works in the stores rather than the factories). You can do all the research you want, but like you said, the same (or very similar) products can cost different amounts for different companies. You also said they all pay full price. That's not true. She gets discounts on every Apple product except for the iphone.

When I was talking about the price of the cores in the processor, I wasn't insinuating that 4x technology cost 4x as much. The cores of the NGP, from what I gather from your posts, have the potential to be 8x stronger than the iphone. As such, it could easily cost 4x times as much.

Also, if Sony acts the way you say, than why did they start the PS3 at such a high price? That factor alone could have been the biggest reason for the PS3's lagging in console market. They could have just taken a bigger loss and sold many more systems, and later make up for the loss. If the PS3 had been $300 at launch it probably would have destroyed the Xbox, and competed with the Wii (I say this not out of fanboyism, but because even though the PS3 is the most technologically advanced system, it would still be very intimidating to people who aren't too tech-savvy, no matter the price; the Wii is more approachable.)

P.S.-I didn't really have any trouble with your English, actually, but for future posts it would be nice if you stuck with 1 currency. I can read dollars or translate Euros, but when they both show up throughout the paragraph (or even sentence) it can get kind of confusing since $1 does not equal 1 Euro.

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Rob_mc_1

294. Posted:

Wow what a change in topic.

archie96 wrote:

Has the announcement of psp2 changed your mind about the 3ds? Will you still get 3Ds? Which do you think will be better?

to

gatygun wrote:

What are you talking about actually with a apple employee? a shop worker? or a company worker ( that creates those stuff on hardware level ) "shitty english cant explain it better". because i quess we got a miscommunication. As your friend is probably a american and not eastern kind of figure.

Talk about derailed. Yet like with any wreckage I can't help but watch.

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Magi

295. Posted:

archie96 wrote:

Has the announcement of psp2 changed your mind about the 3ds? Will you still get 3Ds? Which do you think will be better?

I've preordered a pair of 3DS handhelds. When they arrive, and if the demand faaaar outweighs the supply, I'll relist them on craigs list or ebay for a ridiculous jacked up price and use the money to fund a PSP2/NGP. or if my hands-on experience with a tester model of the 3DS is favorable and the demand <= supply, I'll keep one and return the other for a refund or if my hands-on experience with a tester model is not favorable, I'll return them both.

bring it.

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noblo601

296. Posted:

I have been so excited about the 3ds, but a combination of the region locking, poor battery life and the fact I expect this beast to retail at $400 in Australia has me far less eager now. I still desperately want one, but I think I will try and wait for two years and hope they release a revised edition with longer battery (I game on the go a lot).

The NPG has me really excited, especially with the game they have shown where you move the land using the rear touchpad. The screen is crisp and it already seems extremely polished. However, I am so worried about the price of this as well, I can barely afford either as I need to save for an engagement ring (I can say it in these forums without the gf finding out and going crazy lol) and as a result I am thinking of purchasing the regular PSP and getting a swag of games for it and my current DS lite over the next two years. Games like pokemon take me forever to complete anyway so I should be right,....

I hope...

Conclusion - Both look awesome but mighty pricey...

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CanisWolfred

297. Posted:

@Magi

You're a mad genius.

I think Noblo just summed up my thoughts on this right now. They're both nice, but too expensive.

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WaLzgi

298. Posted:

I think some companies have a weird definition of "affordable"

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Token_Girl

299. Posted:

@Waltz

I believe AT&T and verizon are the ones who actually are in charge of selling the iPhones. I'm not even sure if you can buy iPhones at the apple store. The only way you can buy them new in the US is with a two year contact with one of those cell providers. There is a much higher cancellation fee for iPhone plans as well. I'd guess the companies pay apple in full for the phones and then provide them at an initial loss along with the contract. This has always been a common model in the US.

As for the NGP, I can't see Sony releasing it for less than $350. I'm sure even that will be a loss given the power under the hood. I'm sure the profit margin on PSN downloads is quite good, but it will interesting to see how much retail games cost.

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Phobos

300. Posted:

lz20XX wrote:

I think some companies have a weird definition of "affordable"

I also think some companies have a weird definition of "portable".

Edited on by Phobos

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