
Nintendo has just filed a patent which confirms previous reports that its Switch successor will use AI upscaling.
The patent mentions Nvidia's DLSS upscaling (Deep Learning Super Sampling), which allows the hardware to run games at a higher resolution using AI techniques.
As noted by Laura Kate Dale, the patent lists an example where the system can be used to "explicitly to reduce overall game sizes" to fit a modern game onto "smaller capacity physical media", like Switch game cards.
"The example given is that a game with native 4K textures might need a 60GB download, but a 1080 native version might only need 20GB (which would allow it to fit on a 32GB Switch Cart, the current max size Nintendo produces for Switch 1)," adds Dale. "The idea being to do a 4X upscale on the device in realtime."
[source bsky.app]
Comments 108
AI up-scaling can look okay, but usually it looks bad
Please tell me this isn't real.
Whether true or not, I think there's no doubt at this point that the next system will have much more power. There's lots I can hope for for the new system, but that's the bare minimum that I think it will come with.
@Bluelink45 I think DLSS looks great
I tried games like CP2077 at 4k with DLSS Balanced/Performance and I could barely tell a difference to native 4k, it looks that good imo
DLSS would be a godsend for the Switch 2
I hope it has a built in ssd with lots of storage space. N games are installed to the ssd, rather than played through the cart. So we get that fast load times.
Nintendo must be happy with DLSS. İ hope it is true. DLSS is so good not perfect but so good. 4K is good. NVİDİA is great.
@Bluelink45 If applied properly, you can't tell the difference between upscaled and native 4k without zooming on the image. Digital Foundry has made multiple videos on this technique.
DLSS is just a cop out
@Bluelink45 The difference between DLSS and Native has become almost imperceivable now. DLSS version 1.0 was pretty crappy but version 2.0 onwards is almost perfect. It would take an extremely keen eye to notice the difference between DLSS 3.7 and Native now.
DLSS looks really good if you have it on quality mode. But hopefully this doesn't mean they'll get lazy when it comes to optimizing their games.
As long as it's not in the games, I'm good.
@mikegamer DLSS is how u get high resolution on crappy aged hardware.
The SoC the Switch 2 is using is based on Nvidia Ampere (30 series GPU technology). It came out in 2020 so its about to be outdated by 2 generations when Nvidia launches their new 50 series cards at the end of this month. Nintendo always cutting costs and making do nowadays. It's sad coz they used to have the latest and greatest tech in their machines. NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube - all right up there with the competition in terms of hardware capability. Then ever since the Wii came out they've always been an entire generation behind the competition with regards to horsepower. I miss the days when Nintendo had both great games AND great hardware. It's like they're allergic to doing both now
Not particularly surprising at this point but still, nice to have further confirmation!
Realistically, the Switch 2 only needs to improve in a couple of areas: CPU cores and speed, and more RAM for developers. The GPU will be more powerful simply via the passage of time.
So, it doesn't necessarily need to target resolutions beyond what the current Switch can handle as AI cores handle the final output resolution.
@Ravenmaster
There is a Iwata article on this site somewhere from 2024 from a year 2004 interview, where Iwata predicted 2024, 20 years ago and he were right.
It explains why Nintendo went out of the hardware race.
@Ravenmaster Nintendo gave up on the hardware rat race after it made its most powerful console ever (Gamecube was an absolute beast of a machine for the time) and didn't move the needle in terms of hardware sales (mainly due to the fact Nintendo still wanted to keep "cartridge-like" load times and created the proprietary 1.5GB optical disc rather than use DVD).
Other than the Wii U, Nintendo has found much more success with budget hardware than pushing the cutting edge.
@Bluelink45 current version of DLSS is very good. Sure it’s not native. But only Pixel Peepers are going to notice any difference.
So again a lot of complaining from the likes of Digital Foundry (and the comment section of this website). Who can’t understand that a mobile system is not a PS5.
i'm excited, nintendo's modern strategy is about mastering older hardware as far as game design goes. i'm expecting "switch 2" to be something along the lines of being a updated ps4 similar to how the switch is an updated ps3.
So Paper Mario TTYD on Switch having 4K in the code might have some credibility!
I don’t understand how DLSS works. Like how can it make a game look better?
Currently the best upscaler on the market today.
I don’t care about 4k resolution. I DO care about input latency and ghosting effects from motion.
Hopefully the DLSS is conditional and not actually required to run the games.
where in the patent does it suggest 4k upscaling though? it says output 1080p, also textures cant be upscaled with dlss since they are set fixed resolutions so your claim that they can upscale 1080p textures to 4k with dlss is not true
take these rumors as a grain of salt.
AI upscaling works pretty good if done right
It doesn't really make it look better, it allows to produce a 4k output from a 1080p source. The system needs much less power to generate a 1080p image (4x less pixels) which is really good for a portable system, and as highlighted in the article lower resolution textures can be used, which again is good for a portable system using cartridges (as opposed to Blu-rays). Then dedicated cores upscale the picture to 4k using AI while the system is free to work on the next image.
@swoose same, the switch already adds lag through the dock, wonder if anyone can confirm that AI upscaling truly happens in "real time"
@Toastmaster Thing is, they CAN have both good hardware and great games. But they choose not to. I would happily pay an extra 100 bucks on top of MSRP if it meant they'd put enough horsepower in the Switch 2 to run 4K at 60fps natively. Even a RTX 3060Ti can run BotW at 4K 60fps and those are cheap as chips now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXR5tTpqx4&t=308s
@GamingFan4Lyf They're succeeding purely because their games are good. But at the same time those games could look and play much better at higher res and smoother frame rates if they'd get back into using good hardware
@Bluelink45 DLSS isn't an upscale in the traditional sense. By letting an neural net handle the anti-aliasing of a cleaner, but aliased image, it can actually nearly match a native render. The thing that people haven't mentioned is that with DLSS, you get the best results by using 4K textures and rendering at 1080p, something that people have been conveniently avoiding mentioning since the article implies they're going to DLSS with 1080p textures.
Of course, each game designer can do what they want, and it's not like DLSS with 1080p textures doesn't still look significantly better than regular upscaling.
every single time i have used dlss on my computer it looks like garbage...
i guess switch 2 games wont look and run as good as ps5 and xbox x after all..
@Bluelink45 DLSS is pretty good. FSR is not.
@sanderev
Not even.
Digital Foundry does not complain. They have said multiple times that dlss is great and they definitely understand that switch is a handled.
So really it's just a couple people online who like to think they are tech savvy and think they absolutely need to prove it, mainly to themselves mind you, by saying stuff like this or that version of the game is unplayable because it's not 200fps and they can tell pixel counts just by glancing at a screen.
@Ravenmaster I think current hardware sales would suggest they are quite happy with the approach they have and it's hard to argue against it. Once you are hitting 60fps and 1080p the improvements start becoming less noticeable to the general gaming public so any higher specs would be for a smaller portion of their overall audience
We're lucky Nintendo was already partnered with Nvidia before AI upscaling really took off. DLSS is still the most reliable version of the technique as far as I'm aware.
As someone without a 4K TV, I wonder if this means yet better performance for my 1080P TV. Or at the very least, lower energy consumption?
@Ravenmaster Your benchmark for looking and playing better is the likes of stuff on PC and PS5. You've already stacked the deck.
What Nintendo's continued success and the continued success of games on it outside of their library proves is that the most cutting edge graphics are not necessary for a good game.
Just a good framerate and great style, and good gameplay.
The TV my Switch is hooked up to maxes out at 480i so that’s no problem
I can't wait to get my hands on it 😍
Wow handheld 4K ai scale !!
@johnedwin Not a single person with a realistic outlook on the next Nintendo hardware thought this would be the case.
@StarPoint I hate to be a downer, but man they will totally get lazier about optimization, depending on who “they” are. Grezzo, Square-Enix, and Acquire sure seemed pretty lazy this last year when optimizing Echoes of Wisdom, DQ III, and Brothership. The load times in those last two are just on the side of obnoxious.
@Morph Trouble is there are hardly any 1080p TV's on the market these days. 95% of TV's 42" and above are 4K. It's been this way since 2019. Nintendo needs hardware that can keep up with current gen TV's, not last gen 1080p from 2006. Putting a 1080p image on a 4K screen stretches the picture and causes pixelation. It's unnecessary this late into the 4K era.
@Skullkid87 deep learning super sampling
Taking low res images and upscale them to high resolution per frame using AI at less performance cost
@Ravenmaster Yes, but remember Switch have a media streaming chip from year 2014 designed for 4K/60 video streaming.
It were never designed for gaming, but there are Android 3D Games that ran games at 1080p/60 on that media chip 10 years ago.
It was the best portable chip 10 years ago and is why Nintendo chose it.
You can forget RTX 3060TI in a handheld, because it would melt the handheld and the GPU itself would break to due lack of cooling.
2.) Impossible to fit it inside a handheld.
3.) No room for big cooling ribs and big fans.
4.) 3060TI would be way too expensive for a Nintendo handheld unless you would want to pay 1000$ for a Nintendo handheld.
Not even 1000-1500$ PC Gaming handhelds is as powerful as RTX 3060TI.
This makes me wonder why Nintendo are still using NVIDIA instead of AMD.
Only "consoles" with AMD have price drops and that includes Xbox, PS, PC Handhelds and Laptops.
Nintendo could offer a solid gold Switch with diamond encrusted controls with 6K imagery and people would still bitch and moan about it.
@CutchuSlow That would be so cool. But I feel like that would jack up the price too much for average consumers.
@NinChocolate you need a modern tv lol..
Were people really expecting 4K natively on a mobile device expected to compete with Xbox and PS5?
I just hope there is an option to turn if off as I still game on a plasma TV and will until it dies so no need for upscaling.
I’m pretty ambivalent about this news - continued physical media and access to more, bigger games on modest hardware are good things, but at what cost? Will this introduce lag, drag down performance, and take away that “crunchiness” I like in snappy-playing games? Putting intermediary AI layers between us players and the human talent making the games does not sound appealing to me at all.
@johnedwin The raw power of Switch 2 was never going to be as much as PS5 and Series X. It may have newer tech in some regards that let's it get great results for the power that is in it but a handheld deveice is never going to match the current gen home consoles. That never should have been an expectation.
@Toastmaster You can get an RTX 4060 Ti for £275. It really doesn't cost that much and its low wattage so wouldn't overheat easily. Add it to the other components and you have yourself a very capable hybrid console for around £500. considering most people pay £600-£1000 for a smart phone these days, it's not a big ask.
@Toastmaster
Nvidia tech is better suited than AMD tech for thermally-limited hardware like Switch, and for Switch specifically, they provided a very good graphics API (NVN).
DLSS is also the industry leader in AI upscaling, so that's another huge benefit for Switch 2 and other future Nintendo game systems as we head into a future where gaming hardware will have to rely more-and-more on AI to handle graphics rendering/output.
I think Switch 2 will generally perform comparable to PS4 but will look much closer if not a bit better PS4 Pro when you add on DLSS AI upscaling & some basic ray tracing.
DLSS can look absolutely phenomenal, and is a great way for a small hybrid device to punch above its weight class in terms of image quality.
@Teksette DLSS does not introduce any latency. It does have a performance cost, but that cost is much smaller than rendering the game at much higher resolution. So if you want to render a 4K image (or 1440p more realistically for Switch 2), it will run better with DLSS.
That said, DLSS is not magic. It can upscale sub-720p content but the quality will suffer greatly.
Hopefully this isn't forced and can be turned on/off in game settings.
@johnedwin No one ever expected they would be, not even steam deck can run PS5 games as well as the PS5 can. For an handheld to run like that you're looking at a £1000 device and even then it would have to be bulky as hell and probably have an hours battery life at most.
When making an handheld compromises have to be made.
@Bluelink45 DLSS looks great in most cases and I would doubt most people could even tell the difference. As long as they're starting from a native 1080p then DLSS upscaling to 4K is perfectly fine.
What you've probably seen is FSR and PSSR that have lots of issues such as ghosting, flickering, extremely blurry in motion, among other image instability issues.
@Ravenmaster a 1080p image on a 4k display will display just fine. The difference between a 1080p image on a 1080p screen vs a 1080p image on a 4k screen is negligible in most cases. The TV will upscale the image fine and there wont be any stretching as the dimensions scale up equally.
Now obviously you aren't taking advantage of the additional pixels vs using a native 4k image but how many people using a Switch 2 will really notice the difference between 1080p and 2160p, that's why using DLSS makes the most sense.
I think DSLR looks better then Mirrorless. 😅
@jake1421 What lag ? 0,000001 milisecond ?
@swoose Yes, exactly. If it's a handheld, why would we need 4k resolution? It sounds more like they want 3rd parties and they'll use bad post-processing upscaling and have the console with the weakest ports and worst looking games again.
I doubt we'll see much of it in 1st party titles, unless they've completely lost their minds. Ghosting, smearing, and frame lag in a Mario game will be my last Mario game.
I can't wait for this to drop. I feel so stuck between machines right now with the og switch providing pretty awful performance and the PS5 and Xbox not giving me the flexibility I want to game.
If this is true then it sounds perfect to me and I hope we get retrospective patches on old games to use the new tech. I hope people that bought cloud versions of games get an upgrade to a full version too - but that may be asking a bit much.
Rumour has it that it will be announced on the 8th January.... fingers crossed!
@johnedwin Lol
Removed - unconstructive feedback; user is banned
If this true then this would actually confirm that the supposed Switch 2 is in fact really a Switch Successor.
@Ravenmaster It's not how this works. All components combined have to cost around 250$ at most including controllers, RAM, SSD, OLED screen, Casing, connectors and other things.
A RTX 4060 can't fit inside a tablet or a any tiny console. Stores want money for selling it on top of it.
Wattage have nothing to do with it
This GPU would melt the plastic on a Nintendo handheld without cooling.
This GPU requires a tower casing with a a lot of airflow on top of it's own huge fans.
Ask anyone here, as other.
@premko1
1 frame extra through docked mode. By itself not much but it's the difference between a game feeling pretty good and feeling great.
Unless you mean what lag from upscaling, in which case, I don't know, that's my question.
Yeah slow down let's focus on getting stable 60fps games first lol.
@Toastmaster I can tell you're not a system builder otherwise you'd know of thin and light gaming laptops that easily house a rtx 4060 in a very thin chassis. They use vapour chambers and small fans to stay cool while under load. Such a GPU could fit in a dock. In fact external GPU's have been a thing for years now. Nintendo could do it as an add-on for more horsepower when playing at home in docked mode.
Thats really bad news. I enjoy AI as much as the next person but AI upscaling is pure garbage.
@mariomaster96 Agreed, it usually looks pretty good. There are some games with bad DLSS implementation (no sharpness adjustment and/or artifacting) but most titles I’ve played with it look good.
@Ravenmaster I can tell you are not a system builder since you don't know that if there isn't room for a Laptop GPU inside a huge PC Handheld, 3 times the size of Switch. There is no way it can fit inside a smaller Nintendo handheld.
My PC Handheld are 3 times bigger than a Switch physically, and even then it's too small for a Laptop RTX GPU.
Even if there were room for a "Laptop RTX", good luck with 10 minute battery time on each charge.
Battery life is short even at only 30W.
There is a reason not even the largest PC handhelds have RTX GPU, because NVIDIA don't make any small enough for handhelds.
PC Handhelds either use AMD Extreme or Intel ARC. RTX isn't a option for any handheld as even the giant ones are too small.
Nintendo refuse to add support for external SSD, because they know Soccer Moms will unplug the console while running games from external SSD in the dock, and won't understand why the games will crash.
Wii U were an exception as it were a TV console. You could have 2 x SSD's connected to Wii U at the same time...
There is no way a Nintendo "family" handheld will have eGPU support.
My Legion GO Handheld supports external RTX 4090...
PC handhelds are designed for PC Gamers and not Nintendo gamers, and is why they can support external GPU, SSD etc.
@jake1421 Unnoticable to '" normal " gamer , trust me
@KoopaTheGamer
Thank you for the reassurance! I guess we’ll have to see where this new technology takes us. Though if DLSS deducts from the authentic feel of the arcade, older home console game, and pinball ports I enjoy, going forward I may be gaming more on the OG Switch than I expected.
Ugh. I hope we can turn this crap off. "cAn BaReLy TeLL tHe DiFfErEnCe", yeah, you and countless clowns on YouTube who upload the crappiest of SD-upscaled videos, while the visually impaired praise the clips to high heaven, "Gee! whAt A GrEaT ReMasTeR!" 🤦🏻♂️
Adaptive resolution has been the bane of the current Switch. All I want is consistent, rock-solid 1080p performance (make UHD an option, but not the norm if the hardware cannot handle it in most situations), but too many are so eager to pursue the UHD rat race, however mediocrely it's implemented.
Will this darned this be announced already!
@Bluelink45 I think this is a good thing, Nintendo generally does pretty well with making more out of less...
Every time I see the PS5 in action, I'm amazed at how clear it is and such, but the games aren't any funner and honestly it's a waste of processing power especially when it costs so much to make the game and to buy the system.
So I am really liking the way Nintendo is going with this so far.
"The example given is that a game with native 4K textures might need a 60GB download, but a 1080 native version might only need 20GB (which would allow it to fit on a 32GB Switch Cart, the current max size Nintendo produces for Switch 1)," adds Dale. "The idea being to do a 4X upscale on the device in realtime."
So, will Switch 2 cartridges not only have some sort of distinction from original Switch cartridges (whether it’s an added notch or just different pins) but also have more storage (maybe somewhere at 64GB) and higher speeds?
Nvidia is the market leader in AI technology. Looks smart to partner with them on Switch 2.
I believe Sony and Microsoft have partnered with AMD. As has the "supposed Switch killer" Steam Deck from Valve.
The only thing I care about is being able to play Nintendo games at a good framerate. As long as they deliver that, nothing else really matters.
@Ironcore I guess I'm the exact opposite then. I hate generative AI and believe it doesn't have a place in any pieces of media. However, neural network based upscalers like DLSS are in general very effective.
It's important to make a distinction between AI upscaling videos and AI upscaling videogames. With videos, you only work with video data and the results will be awful. With videogames, upscalers such as DLSS and Intel's XeSS also require motion vectors in addition to the video data. This results in much, much better results.
Nvidia and AMD are about to receive cease and desist notices, it seems.
The only folks criticising this are AMD fans that are stuck on poopoo FSR or folks that haven’t tried DLSS above 1080p. It’s literally indistinguishable at 4K native vs 4K quality on TVs and VERY hard on monitors. Even 1440p DLSS quality can look at times better than bad AA implementation and native.
This is fascinating news.
On page 32, the patent specifically talks about generating data sets on versions of a game that is capable of outputting higher resolutions, for use with versions of the game that output lower resolutions.
Now the obvious application here is to enhance resolutions for older, backwards-compatible titles. This might, however, also be a strategy to future-proof the Switch platform. I.e. continue to train new titles, developed during the next decade or so, on higher resolutions (on developer workstations) and provide game-specific DLSS data sets either with the game itself or through system updates.
I'm thinking about game cards, I want whole games on cards. I don't really care if cards themselves are expensive or not, that's totally not my problem. I have enough of buying incomplete products. 4k? 1080p? I don't care, fit at least 1080p. When it comes to DLSS, it's a must. I can't imagine Switch 2 not having it nowadays, it's a handheld.
@Bluelink45 It looks great when it's native and built in.
@Ravenmaster You don't know what you're talking About. Why don't none of these upper end handheld gaming PCs use the latest tech?
@Toastmaster "My Legion GO Handheld supports external RTX 4090...
PC handhelds are designed for PC Gamers and not Nintendo gamers"
Horse**** XD
PC Handhelds need tinkering sometimes, and Nintendo consoles don't. Switch is idiot proof and PC Handheld's isn't even with a console interface.
Anyways. Legion Go with RTX 4090 here.
https://youtu.be/n-9AdWDCw7c
DLSS (and any other form of AI upscaling) is such a terrible cop out. Most games i play on PC these days barely run well unless i have DLSS on and it looks horrid most of the time. Marvel Rivals, which released very recently, can barely hold a steady 60, and it looks like any other hero shooter from 2016. Whatever happened to proper optimization? Really hope Nintendo isn't going to rely on this trite.
DLSS has been around for years, but the technology is mostly unknown by the masses and a God-send for Nintendo and Switch 2. Nintendo doesn't have to break the bank for next-gen graphics using DLSS and allows them to stick to its identity of gameplay over graphics and power.
Imagine being able to play your entire Switch library in 4k with just a small update. I fear however we may see many, many re-releases at full price with only minor enhancements. For example, I don't want to have to pay another $50 to play Hyrule Warriors in 4k with higher FPS and a couple more characters.
@KoopaTheGamer Check out the AI upscaled films such as alien and PISS function on PS5 for GT7. That's my only exposure to it.
@PtM it works fine it's just a crutch for lazy developers
@Ironcore Yeah, as I mentioned, AI upscaling doesn't work well at all on video. It does work well in videogames if implemented well.
PSSR is still in its early days and will hopefully improve in the future. I think Sony kind of dropped the ball there with either pushing it out too soon in an unfinished state, or not giving developers enough support/documentation on how to implement PSSR in games.
@Skullkid87 It's not necessarily about making the games look better, but about getting better performance (fps).
So for example the game won't actually render in 4k resolution, but AI upscaling will smooth out the edges to make it look as if it were, and the outcome is pretty good.
@Toastmaster "Switch is idiot proof" Except for the constant joycon drift issues that were so bad Nintendo had to offer free repairs instead of facing a mass recall and fixing the problem XD
I must say, I'm completely blown away. With the combination of Nintendo magic with the mysterious power of NVIDIA, the Nintendo Switch 2 would be one of the must buy 4K hybrid system. A definite must by for 2025!
@mikegamer How so? DLSS is the way of life in video games. Not to mention the fact that DLSS is more reliable than AMD's FSR.
@Ravenmaster Because Nintendo tried to save 50 cents by not using hall effect sticks.
Steam Deck, Rog Ally, MSI Claw and everyone else are as cheap as Nintendo. They all use the same low budget sticks as Switch.
Lenovo is the only PC Handheld maker who could afford to pay for hall effect sticks for their Legion Go.
They used a more expensive screen, Faster RAM the other handhelds, more expensive controllers as they are detachable, and also works as a real table PC mouse, Proper Kickstand etc.
I gladly paid 1500$ for my Legion including extra 2.TB SSD, Docking, Steelseries Keyboard + Mouse, MSI 15.6" portable Monitor for it. Remember Lenovo is the only Handheld also designed to be used as a laptop.
1500$ isn't much for a handheld as a premium phone, Laptop and premium TV costs the same...
A lot of people on Reddit paid 2000-2500$ for their Legion Go.
People have too much money nowadays. lol
@Leu10antFalcon Because it's not native resolution, games should be able to render 4K natively without a crutch.
@mikegamer Native or not, it STILL looks good in 4K DLSS and AI upscale technology.
@Leu10antFalcon Right, but devs will use it as a crutch to not optimize games
@mikegamer Never underestimate Nintendo, NVIDIA, or its developers-- First and third parties and indies. Both companies will share information with the devs on making that method.
@Ravenmaster Unfortunately, the RTX 5000 series isn't a new generation, but a poor man's refresh.
@floxi A poor man's refresh that costs around 50% more money than it should
@GamingFan4Lyf GameCube was Superior to a PS4 in some ways. It had 64 bit CPU before that was even a thing
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