Update For Arrow Time U Improves Overall Game Experience

Ouch, those art assets are worse than mine! But the core gameplay looks kinda fun

If the changes are drastic enough you guys should update your old review and if the overall score is better I may consider it.

A little integrity goes a long way with me. Glad to see they stood by their word, and glad they realize this was not the best they could do, but they want to improve on the next go round. Good luck to them.

There are a disturbing number of "indie" games on the Wii U that are released in some sort of half-assed state, then given their "intended version" later on through updates.

If you guys want to sell your games and get better reviews, maybe you should stop offering "updates coming to make the game good!" and just start releasing finished products in the first place. Some of these indie guys on Wii U make EA and Ubisoft look like they had all their crap in order right from the start.

And it's a Nintendo console. Quit expecting high sales unless you somehow have Mario or Link shoehorned into your game.

@thaantman The changes are actually not very big. If you trust Nintendo Life's original review, then I honestly can't say the game will be any different than what they made it out to be. But for people who happen to pick it up regardless, we hope the game is slightly more approachable and enjoyable. That's all.

@Zodiak13 Thank you for the perhaps undeserved bit of kindness and understanding.

@Quorthon I can't speak for any other developers here, but the update wasn't something we intended to put out from the beginning to fix issues we knew were there. We mostly used feedback that we didn't get during pre-release feedback tests.

Also, we weren't expecting high sales, but despite this game being a budget game, we did still put a lot into it. Just to put things into perspective, we didn't even make up like, 25% of the costs, not including the cost for the dev kit. That's our fault though and we get that. We mentioned the sales as reasoning for not supporting it any further when the game still has a lot of room for improvement: normally, companies might not support a game/series at all if it doesn't sell, but we put out a basic update anyway instead of just focusing on new and better projects. This is the best we can justify.

The sales are completely reasonable and justified (just look at the review scores) and we're not blaming anyone but ourselves. I do hope that people don't misunderstand that.

Anyway, thank you for your time and sorry if we frustrate you, but it is never our intention to release a "bad" game. I certainly hope no developer ever intends that.

@XenoHorizon

I was going to try to PM you, but I guess we can't do that on this site. My team is currently grumbling along through a lotcheck somewhere now (I won't say the name of the team or the console at this point), but have been growing more annoyed by some of what we see encroaching onto gaming from too many indies--that is, lazy releases, obvious shovelware, and games that are practically just a slap to the face of consumers, and too many of them are low-quality trite with promises of "we'll make it good later, just ignore all the piss-poor reviews we rightly incurred prior to this."

By all means, don't take this comment personally, as it is not directed to describe you.

The problems I have are two-fold:

1. The eShop was once a haven for Nintendo fans and indie devs alike--full of promise, rich with great games and experiences. Some of my favorite games of this generation (so far) have been eShop titles like Gunman Clive, Steamworld Dig, X-Type+, and Chain Blaster. The problem with poor-quality games (I haven't played yours, so I'm not judging it in this) is that it damages the reputation of the shop as a whole, and makes it harder for all indies to catch a break therein. How are you supposed to stand out amongst bottom-feeding crap like The Letter or Spikey Walls that clearly have zero artistic integrity, and almost seem to mock the consumer?

2. The consumers and the Indie community. Continue to release substantially low-scoring games, and don't be surprised if you don't have sales or people have nothing nice to say to you about them. Indie gaming once carried with it a hope for gaming, that the creativity and expressive new ideas we don't get in AAA can be found here. When we see even indie devs all-too-happy to produce low-scoring shovelware that earns them a profit just because they price it down to nothing, we're seeing the worst that the industry has to offer. Then it isn't games being offered, it's an empty product, and this will gradually turn consumers away from indie.

Try not to be offended by my "tough some-might-call-it-love" here, but looking at reviews, you did not have very good testers or input in your game. It's not Nintendo's job to tell you if your game is any good, only to check it for a basic technical functionality before releasing it--so that it meets their standards. This is no different than what I tested when I worked at Activision and got to plunge head-first into four Cabela's games.

I'll offer you an easy suggestion: IGDA. If you haven't heard of them, it's the International Game Developers Association, and there is a chapter in pretty much every state in the US, and many worldwide. Talk to the people there, show your game, and get feedback. Prior to releasing our original Android game, my team took our game there, got brilliant feedback, and incorporated pretty much all of it into what is now a very strong game that we're very proud of. We used it as a learning experience so that our next full game will be that much better, and we're eager to do it.

There is something else I learned early on in development of the Android version of our game--you can teach the basic fundamentals of game design, but you can't teach good ideas or creativity. Some people have it, some people don't. If you made your game in Construct 2, and you did it alone, it would appear that you should not do that again, and should find someone to join you to not only bounce ideas off of, but to maintain focus. I don't know what other ideas you have or how creative you are. I have around 40 game ideas in various stages of conceptualization, one in lotcheck, one in a renewed pre-production, and another side project I've been using to tinker with Construct 2 to make something close to the kind of shmups I personally want to play*. You may need to find where you're deficient, admit that deficiency, and find someone to make up for it and compliment the skills you do have. We have brilliant programmers, but they aren't the most creative guys when it comes to basic gameplay or input. We had a 5~7 step process to perform a certain task in the earlier version of our next game, and I was adamant that it needs to be reduced to only a couple button presses, because if the interface is too complicated, it won't work.

By all means, congratulations on getting this far, especially if you did it on your own, but going by the 2/10 review Arrow Time got, you may have squandered a great opportunity. Team Meat worked for years on something that truly had meaning to them. I do not see that in a lot of Web Framework games. I see too many indies living up to the very definition of shovelware. Don't let that become you.

And go to IGDA. The Global Game Jam is coming up at the end of this month. Attend it.

*I also have a card game halfway through design, and a board game my son and I designed together that is largely complete, but we're a little stuck in what to do with it next.

@Quorthon I'll answer paragraph by paragraph, since this is long. First, I understand what you mean. Again, we didn't mean to do that: I would have scratched the game and not released it if I didn't think it was fun (even if that meant losing even more money). But I think my biggest failure here (as the main person responsible in the team) is that I didn't refine and polish the game-play enough for it to be fun to everyone. (That and the graphics, despite being done by a professional, weren't very... enticing.)

Gotcha.

1. I understand. Some quality control (on Nintendo's part, probably) is needed, but at the same time it does hurt potential for developers. This is a bit arrogant of me to say, but I do think I have potential to make fun and successful games, but if I'm not selfish in trying to work my way up to that point, I'll never have the opportunity. In short, Nintendo is giving people opportunities, and there's going to be good and bad about that.

2. You bring up a good point. People want to start with something super small, sell a bit, then make enough money to make something better, etc., again in my case it wasn't my intention to do that because then I'd have just made a clone of some more popular game that would safely make money instead of going for a idea that ended up not scoring with critics (and to some extent, consumers) and losing money. Now, I know you already said you're not necessarily speaking about me here, but I feel the need to take what I can from criticisms, directed towards me or not.

In this case, I think I should go with the mentality of not just finishing a working game with a fair amount of content, getting it out there, and adjusting the price so it fits, but trying to make every game a great game AND making sure the price is good. Which is really tough and is partially why people fail: we don't have the funds, the experience, etc. to do things like that, which is why people are either unsuccessful in finishing a game at all, or they release games that end up... well, not being that good in the eyes of the public.

In response to IGDA: I'm aware of it, but it's not accessible to me. In fact, there's nothing around here that's really accessible to me, so going to conventions or meet-ups or whatever isn't an option, and that's just how it is. I'm sure one opinion is that someone who doesn't have various resources available to them shouldn't be trying to do this in the first place, but I don't like that mentality as I'm not one to give up just because I'm at a disadvantage: I'd rather make up for it with my own hard work, even if it takes longer or the end result is a little less than I'd like. If I keep trying and I keep failing, then fine, I can take a hint, but I won't let just one or two failures stop me.

I actually consider ideas/creativity my strong point, so it's funny you say that, haha. I try not to humor most ideas (on account of actually getting work done) so I only have half a dozen at most and I only work on a couple at once (at various stages of work). Also, I've been taking steps to improve my... work situation. I'm afraid there's little else I can say here. Your words are harsh and condescending in the sense that they show no faith in one's ability to improve and grow, but I appreciate what appears to be concern and willingness to share your own experiences if nothing else.

I don't expect congratulations just for releasing something, haha. It sounds as if though you think I may feel bad that I "worked so hard and long on my own only to get crushed", but that's not the case. Like I said before, I'm not really blaming anyone else or being offended or anything. I -am- a professional, I can and will take critique and move on according to my best judgment. ATU is just one game, and XenoHorizon's first one at that. Nintendo Life's score is just from one review, a review by a very specific individual based on a vague scale with vague criteria (no offense to NL, it's just like most reviewer's scales/rating systems: it is pretty much assigning an arbitrary value to their personal judgment of the game as the gaming industry, unlike other industries, does not have a proper and effective system for critically reviewing games).

Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of your post was, but I tried to be respectful and respond to everything, haha. Note that anything said here was not thought on very hard and should not be quoted as a representation of XenoHorizon's opinion. If anything, it's just my own thoughts as a member of XH at this time, and little more, and they are subject to change as I grow both as a developer and a person.

If you wish to discuss further, please feel free to contact us on our website. (I don't believe linking to a specific site or e-mail would be a good idea as sites usually frown on that for various reasons, e.g. it being considered advertisement.) Again, thank you for taking the time out to share your thoughts and experiences, and best of luck to you in your own endeavors.

@XenoHorizon

I in no way mean to be condescending, but am fully aware that I come off that way. To those that pay attention, I grow on them. To those that offend too easily, well, I guess they can go about their business! At any rate, I try my best to maintain an air of rationality grounded in reality and proudly adopt the Skeptic moniker.

So, view it like this, that which you felt was condescending in having no faith in one's ability to grow, I do have that, but base what I say on current information. You have only one game out, and I can give the benefit of the doubt that things will improve--there is another developer here who has proven that he is not interested in "improving" so much as he's interested in "shoveling" his "wares" to the eShop as quickly as possible for a quick return. Just remember the old saying about first impressions. That's what you'll, unfortunately, be fighting against.

It's unfortunate that you don't have an IGDA near you, but you may still be able to connect with the nearest one in some online capacity, and occasionally plan for a hefty road trip. I may moan and groan and feel exceptionally lazy about going to the monthly IGDA meetings (especially lazy for me as they occur literally 4 blocks away!), but every time I drag my dismal ass down there, I remember the importance of attending the meets and almost always walk away informed and more confident. It was nice that the biggest indie developer in our area (with several 3DS eShop games) complimented our game in that not only didn't it obviously look like "every other Unity game," but they were surprised to find out what engine we used. We must have done something right.

What I'm saying is that the evenings can be extremely valuable, and plan yourself a road trip at some point. Especially of note is the upcoming Global Game Jam.

My point was merely to vent about some of the issues surrounding the eShop, and to give you any pointers that I may know, which I'm sure sound extra condescending as my team's first console port is still in lotcheck! But, we have had our original game in Google Play for two years. Mobile, by the way, sucks unless you're already made of money.

My team maintained as much realism as possible in our first endeavor. We basically just wanted to prove we could complete our task, and chose the most simple of the three concepts I brought to our second meeting (no one else had any concepts) to prove ourselves. We used that to step up to a console, and will use that console to step to the others. We hoped to make money, but didn't plan on it happening because, well, what are the odds? Rovio made something like two dozen games before they stumbled upon Angry Birds and are now suck making that crap forever (I do not like Angry Birds and it's overly luck-based gameplay).

But, we took a familiar concept, and looked to add our own twist and flavor to it, and in that regard, we have something at once recognizable but also different and new--and the gameplay was the most important part of this whole endeavor. Without it, we wouldn't have anything. It's far from the best ideas I have and am eager to work on, but it still means a helluva lot to our team and carries our personalities to it.

Good luck on your next project, and be sure to nail the gameplay first and then pour your heart into everything else. Graphical direction was actually the last thing we put into the game... in part because we didn't have any idea what to theme it around for a long time. It changed three times, and as the graphical designer of the team, that was entirely my fault. But we stumbled upon something we liked in the end that adds a nuanced style and personality to the game.

By the way, I don't care for the idea that just because something like IGDA isn't very accessible to you that you shouldn't make games. One shouldn't make games if they're just going to go about it all lazy and half-assed and just to shovel crap to the audience. I'm of the mindset that games are art in the same way as movies, comic books, and novels, and in that, a game should reflect the voice, views, dedication, and heart of the designer. So whoever says you shouldn't make games just because you don't have that available support structure, screw them. It'll be harder to reach or find, but you can still find those groups. And they're worth it.

I'd still say to find your closest possible IGDA chapter and start talking to them. They may even be able to help you find other nearby developers closer to you that can help you out when you need it.

Good luck!

I think it's SOMETHING that @XenoHorizon actually takes time to smartly reply to others' opinions. This is a long way from Ninja Pig Studios, which I believe came here under @Burgersking or something and was banned after leaving only two comments. Not to mention @Nexisgames, who figured the reason their game was bashed was because it wasn't GTA V or some BS.

@Quorthon I figured as much, I was just sort of pointing it out from an objective standpoint. I have nothing to gain by being slighted by anything, truths and constructive criticism the least of all.

As far as first impressions go: given the extremely limited audience my game has reached, I'm not particularly worried. I also like to think that people can judge a game on it's own worth, and not based on the developer's. Nintendo is famed as a great developer but they make bad games sometimes and companies that receive a lot of hate for their games (like Ubisoft recently) also put out good games. In my case, if I ever do make a hit, most of the people who play it will have never heard of XenoHorizon, haha.

Thanks for explaining the importance of meetings. As someone who hasn't gone to them, I can't pretend to fully understand their benefits. Like I said, it's not something that's possible for me right now due to various reasons (not just the obvious ones like "nothing is close"), but if my circumstances ever change, I will certainly keep my mind open to it.

Ah, fair enough (your "point" and all). I understand your concerns and on a side note, I agree about mobile.

I'd like to think my approach was/is similar to yours, but just isn't quite successful on various accounts, mostly due to my own shortcomings. Again, there's not much I can say here except that I intend to keep trying to improve. Actions speak louder than words, but in game development, it takes a long time for actions to come to fruition.

As gamers first, we like to focus on the gameplay first, though as I mentioned before, ATU fell short in that people found it too hard and unapproachable. Making the gameplay simple and easy to get into, but also have a layer of depth and the ability to be more than just a basic interactive experience, is something that will be a major focal point for the design of our bigger projects. (In some games, the gameplay is simple and straightforward without, and that's just how some games are—that isn't necessarily bad.)

Glad to hear you're open to people striving to make use of what they have. Honestly, if I were just in it to make money and not because I actually enjoy game development, forget making a clone of some game or something, I could have just gone into another business entirely. Most of us have visions of beautiful games we want to make, but the journey to making those a reality is tougher than most people out of the industry have any idea... and perhaps isn't for everyone. But like I said, I won't give up without trying first. If it's still not for me, consumers will let me know by not buying my games, and I'll respectfully walk out at that time.

I'll definitely keep an open mind and look out for any opportunities in my area. Just wanted to let you know your words haven't fallen on deaf ears: I may not be able to do a 360 and launch a game that scores 70 on Metacritic next, but I'm not content with putting out games that people are... well—to be blunt—disgusted at, either.

Lastly, thanks for the good luck wish and have a great weekend.

@xenohorizon I really appreciate your honesty and hope you guys can learn from your mistakes and ultimately make better games for us so its more profit for you. And I do almost always trust nintendo life's reviews I've been using this site since it was Wiiware world to keep an eye on the nintendo indie scene. I've really been supporting the eshop big time because there are quite a few gems and some at awesome budget prices. I'll keep my eye on any future games from xenohorizon and hope you guys become the type of develops that can make gems standout in a trash heap.