This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard in video game history. Of all of the company, why does it have to be 2K Sports to publish it? The manage to produce masterpieces such as Bioshock for the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360, but they have yet to publish a decent Wii game. This concludes that 2K Sports is one of the worst major third-party companies. I haven't heard of a good game published by them and I know I won't hear of one in the near future. If all there going to produce on the Wii is shovelware, they should just stop making Wii games at all. What about EA Sport of Ubisoft? At least they are willing to produce well-received casual games. In the end, it'll be a horrible game and in the worst Wii games. Ignore it and prehaps it won't sell like hotcakes for being "casual".
Name some 'casual' games that have sold like 'hotcakes'...there are VERY FEW! Some people just like to make their own myths, and be damned with the facts...but that is the myth, that somehow Wii is a white hot success because of 'casual' games, when in fact origional Nintendo IP's are far and away the driving force - just as they would most certainly be in a parralel world where Nintendo sells their games on a 360 or PS3........
In fact one of the few top selling 'casual' games is Carnival Games - from this publisher......
Also how can you give Ubisoft and EA props? Oh my. Well recieved 'casual' games? What does that mean? they get a 7.5 instead of a 5 or a 6? Please.
My last comment is, that I doubt this board CAN ignore it......
Hardcore, casual = marketing. The real divide is between arcade and narrative games.
Last I checked, Wii Sports, Wii Music, Wii Play, and Wii Fit were all pretty casual, and those are Nintendo's original IPs, all selling like hotcakes -- well, probably better than hotcakes, though personally I'd prefer a hotcake to Wii Music.
There is a differnece between 'casual' and mass market.....well, maybe not, everone has their own defintion of casual....
But if you mean to say those games are easy, or dumbed down, or forgiving, you are mistaken.
Look back at the foundation games of the early 1980's, Donkey Kong, Space Invaders, PAC MAN, I think you will find a ocmmon thread. Nintendo's genius was to dump narrative and offer stripped down games that were bright and beautiful like those classics. Gameplay. The answer was in arcade gameplay, and it threw the industry - striving for photorealism and swimming still deeper in the waters of ironic literalism, on its head.
How many FPS have 'regenerating' health bars - lol! How many have auto aim or auto assist?
Wii Sports Golf has none of that bt means of example, Miss a putt by an inch, and you miss by an inch, there is no game 'forgivness', no free lunch. You may well be a victim of perception and bias.
Hardcore, casual = marketing. The real divide is between arcade and narrative games.
Except that Wii Sports is really easy anyway, I'd say (and almost everyone else would). Still, if your definition of casual is "easy," you might be better off just saying "easy" because that's not what anyone means by casual. Casual just means widely accessible, which very much applies to all the "Wii ____" titles.
And even if we were working with that definition and for some reason thought Wii Sports and Wii Play were hard, Wii Music and Wii Play definitely are casual games in any definition you use, both of which are Nintendo games, and both of which sold well. Also, Animal Crossing fits the same bill, now that I think of it, though I don't think it sold quite as well (though still good enough).
What is you best score, cowboy? Do you get 3 hole in ones per 9 holes? Not with you there. Golf is a great physics game. It has no handicap or gimmes. When you go pro, than climb to 2000 points - is that easy?
Wii Music is a very hard game. Because it is much more than just rythm.....You need creativity and imagination. Search youtube for some of those videos, man, those guys are on another planet, they are amazing....lets see you make an 'easy' vid like that.
Animal Crossing is not comprably to these other games, because that is about community, virtual or otherwise. The titles I am talking about are arcade games of skill......and that is VERY hardcore....
Your definition of casual is very flawed. From my vantage point, it just seems to target games that are successful and lack CG/and or violence, etc.
Hardcore, casual = marketing. The real divide is between arcade and narrative games.
How is that flawed? It's not my definition. It's the industry's most accepted definition. It's just a word; their should be no preconceived notions of how it should or should not be defined. If you see it as "successful and without CG or violence," okay. What's wrong with that? Of course, not all casual games are successful, but Nintendo's tend to be.
If you want to define games as difficult or easy, there are already words for that: difficult and easy. But even then, you aren't talking about games that are difficult; you're talking about games that are difficult to perfect, which goes for just about any game.
My vantage point was referring to your definition, not mine. I see it as a marketing term. A game that must reach into differnet media comfort zone to promote and sell it.
i.e. - Putting a Nascar license on you Kart racer to pull in a audience as opposed to drawing on an origional game franchise. (NASCAR Wii Racing v MArio KArt Wii - whcih invented the genere)
i.e. Building platfrom games out of the latest dreck Computer genrated animated film with celebrity voices, with the only justification to make money off of a familiar brand. (Kung Fu Panda v Mario Galaxy)
i.e. Making a videogame version of a popular board game or card game title.
These would be just a few examples of true casual games - games that define their idenity outside of the orgional and exclusive world of gaming. If a game has no reference beyond a game console, such as Wii Sports or Wii Fit, it cannot be casual, because their is no familiarity hook outside of of its life on a videogame console.
It is possible for a literal non gamer to enjoy Kung Fu Panda, Poker, and Nascar without ever playing a game console. They cannot enjoy Wii Sports or Wii Fit outside of playing a game console. Therefore it cannot be casual, it can only appeal to those with a knowledge and interest in video gaming.
Hardcore, casual = marketing. The real divide is between arcade and narrative games.
You are just inventing new definitions for words that already have too many definitions. Someone who hasn't played games before can enjoy Wii Sports as much -- well, probably more -- than Kung Fu Panda. "Casual" in no way equals "licensed," even if there is cross-over between the two. But even if we accepted this new definition, why should it be possible for a "literal non gamer" to enjoy Poker or Nascar, but not Baseball, or Tennis, or Exercise? Wii Sports and Wii Fit, as well as Wii Music, have the exact same appeal. Sports and exercise are not restricted to the world of game consoles in any way, certainly not more than poker or children's movies are. They definitely have an appeal well beyond those with a knowledge and interest in gaming. Maybe some people think these stories are made up, but I have an aunt and uncle well into the latter halves of their lives who've never touched games before and bought a Wii for Wii Fit. There is definitely a broad appeal to the so-called casual audience.
Nintendo invents gaming properties....they do not lean on 'real world' crap very often.
If EA had made Wii SPorts, it would not have had Mii's - it would have had Tiger Woods, Andre Agassi, Some dumb bowler guy, etc, etc.
Nintendo took Dr. Kawaski when they made Brain Age - but lets face it 99% of peeps who bought that game in NA had no idea who Dr. Kawaski was.....so even that would not be a true casual game.....
I am not inventing definitions, I just think critically, instead of buying uinto media groupthink. Not say you do, neccessarily, but -
Hardcore, casual = marketing. The real divide is between arcade and narrative games.
Haha, it's Kawashima, not Kawasaki. He's a neuroscientist, not a jet ski.
Definitions have nothing to do with "groupthink." Or rather, it is a prime example of groupthink, except it isn't a negative thing. Words are defined by how they are most commonly used. If the most widely accepted definition of "casual" means a game that is widely accessible to people beyond the traditional gamer demographic, then that is what it means. It has nothing to do with thinking critically.
Wii Sports is casual by the accepted definition. If you want to redefine the word, that's great for you, but it has no bearing on the previous discussion because that is not how anyone else was using the word. It makes no sense to argue against something if you're going to change the meanings of other people's words. You'd just be turning the argument into whatever you want it to be.
If the most widely accepted definition of "casual" means a game that is widely accessible to people beyond the traditional gamer demographic
THis is where you fail. You steryotype - it is not a definition but a steryotype. The traditional gamer demographic has its roots in arcade gamers, who paved the way for home console gaming, which in its early days was built off of ports of arcade games or arcade type games, and further more, so called narrative games are also built off of arcade game building blocks.
So anyone who buys games IS the traditional target demographic.....hell, they made Donkey Kong a hit how many years ago and Wii Sports a hit today.
You are simply buying into media driven steryotpes that are perpetuated to make the pigeons of our industry feel special, chosen, and exceptional....
Hardcore, casual = marketing. The real divide is between arcade and narrative games.
You're just saying the same thing I said in different words. Of course anyone who buys games is the target audience. But before these casual games -- or arcade games, whatever le mot de jour is -- that audience was much smaller. Wii Sports expanded that audience with its more casual game play. And the word fits here by its dictionary definition: the game does is not overly serious or realistic, nor does it require much time or effort to play. You can play it very casually. You can't say the same for EA sports games where you have to memorize a million button combinations to know how to move the ball down the field, and you have to manage your teams and review player attributes / statistics due to having actual players licensed rather than generic Miis.
Miis are not generic - unless you are generic. Perhaps your Mii is generic, lol. Just teasing!
Wii Sports is difficult to play well. You are imagining things if you think the typical EA game is 'harder' simply because it uses more buttons. ALso it has multiplayer, 2 people locked in combat in Wii SPorts and Wii PLay would not be playing casualy, they are in to cut jugualrs! I have been their, bra! No game is more casual than Madden Football - my word! Who would buy it every year were it not for the football season hype, and upgraded rosters? Nintendo makes origional properties, there is no yearly reiteration pull in!
Wii Sports did not expand the audience anymore than any quality game would, be it Ms PACMAN or Space Invaders or Super Mario Brothers. Your arguments are political nonsense. Mainstream does not equal casual! Arcade classica does not equal casual!
Is MS PACMAN less hardcore than Madden 2025? It only uses a direction pad to play afterall......how 'casual' of it!
And Mario only has run and jump buttons! The casual ass primitive NES controller! If only Sony had taken a vested interest in bundling Betamax with a game machine, and released a controller with twice as many buttons! If only!
If Brain Age, Wii Sports, Wii Play, etc, had been released in the Non-political NES gaming era, they would be looked back at today as the fun, arcade fundamentaly sound classics they are - with reverence! Reverence! Classic gaming does not die, it cannot be supplanted by any movement, especially a quasi-realisitic literal and/or narrative movement that is collapsing under its own weight in licensing and unnneccesary CG expenditures!!!
Hardcore, casual = marketing. The real divide is between arcade and narrative games.
The reason Nintendo refers to the game as audience expanding is because it is simple to pick up and play. It requires no explanation. You want to swing the bat? Well, swing the bat. You don't have to go to a page of multiple control configurations like for an EA game on another console where there are twenty buttons with multiple uses depending on context. That is why the game was so successful. People who were previously intimidated by game controllers and overly serious graphics were able to connect with a casual game like Wii Sports. If the game were simply good, it would have attracted people who were already gamers. But because it is more than just a good game, it expanded the audience of video games.
Also, why on earth are you comparing Pacman to Madden? You have this way of changing the subject to prove completely different points. If you want to say Pacman is hardcore because it is challenging or deep or simply classic, that's fine! But in the context of this conversation, that is not what it meant at all. The post you were referring to used "casual" to mean "accessible." Pacman is more accessible because it is simple and easy to play. Madden requires the player to learn the game, which is becoming harder and harder with each new entry to the franchise.
Whatever you think of the definitions of these words, that's fine. I was just explaining what the earlier poster was getting at, but you've turned this into a semantic argument that is no longer interesting. I'm not going to change your mind on how to use a particular word or two, and have no reason to want to. But that is not how the majority of people use the words, so you should get used to it.
Actually that's a great definition. Mainstream=something that appeals to a large group of people. Casual gaming=games that appeal to a large group of people, many of which may not often game. I know you'll somehow disagree, but I think you were accidentally onto something here.
[21:14] pixelman: I blame fheblackdragon
[21:15] pixelman: That's not an f by the way, it's a fancy t.
[21:15] Objection: Tales of Graces "fancy t"
[21:15] Objection: Tinal Tantasy
[21:15] theblackdragon: lol OB
[21:15] pixelman: OB knows what he's asking about.
People who were previously intimidated by game controllers and overly serious graphics were able to connect with a casual game like Wii Sports. If the game were simply good, it would have attracted people who were already gamers. But because it is more than just a good game, it expanded the audience of video games.
THis is more political B.S. that you are buying into.
Why ASSUME! that people are intimidated by Madden? That is laughable. Perhaps they are BORED by realistic literal games - BORED by the realisitc literal game movement -and PREFER the Nintendo way of doing GAME business.....No one who is 'uninterested' in gaming would buy a Wii. I know several people who are uninterested in gaming, and are uninterested in Wii, and are uninterested in any kind of game or game system....! Wii Sports is certinly a great influence into buying a game console - a very well designed game that has no foolish story to bore you, a skill based escape from the real world, with semi comic Mii integration to complete the independent origional game intelectual property....
Madden is successful in any case, but not near as successful as Wii Sports. Wii Sports is fresh, and has better game design....Any fool can play madden with only using a couple of buttons anyway....you do not have to 'learn' anything, just do what ever you feel or 'ask Madden'! IT is foolish to never punt in MAdden right - to go for it every 4th down, and throw bombs nearly every play? This is how my brother plays, and he makes a fool out of your realistic game - the only player he cares about is brett favre, were it Nintendo he could play with a favre mii....how hardcore is he?
Hardcore, casual = marketing. The real divide is between arcade and narrative games.
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