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Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

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TheFrenchiestFry

@JaxonH I feel like Nintendo has actively boxed themselves into a corner at this point in regards to the whole power thing with Switch because assuming they do make their next gen console a hybrid as well, I can't see it being any more powerful than maybe the base Xbox One considering if they do try to inch closer to next gen in terms of disparity, all of that will come at the expense of pretty bad battery life, but if they make it extremely meager in comparison like the Switch already is next to the current platforms, it'll come at the expense of dwindling third party support, because let's face it, the next gen platforms are considerably more enticing to most developers at this point than a current gen platform that not only came extremely late into the lifecycle of the other two, but also is just not as technically ambitious, which means developers actively have to try to work around the technical constraints.

MK11 is actually an excellent example. I haven't played it on anything outside PC, but from the Switch footage I've seen, for every legitimately impressive workaround for graphical intensity there is in that port, like using high res character portrait images on the character select instead of the full renders on other platforms, or lowering resolution to prioritize framerate parity in areas such as making the Fatal Blows pre-rendered videos instead of being real time, there's also more glaring stuff that shows the Switch's true colors like the fact the Crypt looks like an area I'd find in an early PS2 title that was hastily ported to Dreamcast.

I feel like at this point if Nintendo wants the big third party stuff on their systems they almost have no choice but to actually make a traditional no frills console that is on par with the competition like they used to up until the GameCube, otherwise I think this perception that they're super unimportant to big name developers like Capcom, Bethesda, EA and Square Enix will further permeate. Will it alienate the people who legitimately liked the hybrid concept, yeah sure. But at the same time the most successful console worldwide at the moment is a TV-tethered one, and considering PS5 and Series X are both going that route as well, despite Japan's stance on mobile and handheld gaming, there's always going to be a place for that stuff that Nintendo realistically shouldn't shy away from.

Edited on by TheFrenchiestFry

TheFrenchiestFry

Switch Friend Code: SW-4512-3820-2140 | My Nintendo: French Fry

Grumblevolcano

@JaxonH @TheFrenchiestFry I think cloud versions will be the Switch's answer to the power gap. 3rd parties end up wanting to support the Switch because it's a gigantic success but don't want to make a massively downgraded version because the Switch is weak so they follow Control and Hitman 3 in making cloud versions. Then future 3rd party support depends on how successful those cloud versions are.

Grumblevolcano

Switch Friend Code: SW-2595-6790-2897 | 3DS Friend Code: 3926-6300-7087 | Nintendo Network ID: GrumbleVolcano

TheFrenchiestFry

@Grumblevolcano I think the cloud thing has potential, and in Japan the infrastructure is already there, but I don't know how successfully it will pan out because when there are consoles capable of running those games natively with no caveats, a lot of people will just go "I'll just get Hitman 3/Control on my PS5 or Xbox Series X"

The world will eventually be on the same page all around, but for now the only people this will really appeal to are just those who only like or own a Switch. Realistically speaking I can see more people just opting to save up and spend the extra cash on consoles or PCs capable of running the games at their absolute best quality with no caveats in place, which is why I think 3rd party is going to be in a really tough spot going forward. Again, the success of the hybrid thing has really boxed them into a corner with this kind of stuff in my eyes. Like if they proceed with business as usual and just keep making hybrids, it'll come at the expense of being behind the other platforms technologically because you can only go so far with power before it eats up battery, and by extension in terms of external developer and publisher support. If they make it a standard console, they potentially risk losing the people who actually found use out of the hybrid concept. If said third parties go all in on the cloud stuff on Switch, there's already people who'd shun it as evidenced by the reaction to Control and Hitman.

Edited on by TheFrenchiestFry

TheFrenchiestFry

Switch Friend Code: SW-4512-3820-2140 | My Nintendo: French Fry

Cotillion

TheFrenchiestFry wrote:

I feel like at this point if Nintendo wants the big third party stuff on their systems they almost have no choice but to actually make a traditional no frills console that is on par with the competition like they used to up until the GameCube, otherwise I think this perception that they're super unimportant to big name developers like Capcom, Bethesda, EA and Square Enix will further permeate. Will it alienate the people who legitimately liked the hybrid concept, yeah sure. But at the same time the most successful console worldwide at the moment is a TV-tethered one, and considering PS5 and Series X are both going that route as well, despite Japan's stance on mobile and handheld gaming, there's always going to be a place for that stuff that Nintendo realistically shouldn't shy away from.

The big thing about this is....is there room for 3 consoles trying to sell based on power alone? Historically speaking, no. Sega and Nintendo dominated, while there were others trying to get in the same space, they never made it. Then Sony and Nintendo (though Sony dominated easily) and Sega was the eventual victim. Then Microsoft and Sony.....Nintendo wasn't killed off, but only because they left that behind and did their own thing. I really believe if Nintendo had stuck to that model post Gamecube they wouldn't be around in the same way they are now.
There's only so much room and we already have 3 options (one of which not being a console, per se).
If you want the absolute bleeding edge, PC is always there. If you want the next best thing, PS and XB are there. It's already a crowded market. Nintendos choice to leave that has worked incredibly well for them 2 out of 3 times (Wii, Wii U, Switch).
I feel like they have positioned themselves very well as less a direct competitor and more of the best choice as the alternate system to those who have other systems. Someone who has a Playstation looking for a second system: get an Xbox which is essentially more of the same, or get a Switch which is a completely different experience. and also has the benefit of Nintendo first and second party games. It's not a bad position to be in at all. And lets be real, if anyone wants the majority of gaming options, they need and do have more than one. This goes back to even the 90s console war. You can never expect to have a full gaming experience limited to one console nor expect everything to be available on it. Given it's been that way forever, it's foolhardy for anyone to think that should or would be the case.

Cotillion

TheFrenchiestFry

@Shadowthrone If anything I think this gen the Series S might actually fill that niche of people looking for a second system better than the Switch.

It's going to be the same price as the flagship Switch model to my knowledge, except it will actually handle the more technically ambitious stuff albeit with compromise that will be considerably more inconsequential than something as demanding as running Outer Worlds on a 7 year old SoC previously used in Android devices. Especially given how much more portable and easy to store it is compared to Series X or PS5, and the advent of Game Pass coupled with xCloud will probably entice the usually handheld-centric JP market, especially since Bethesda's IPs actually have an incredibly strong following there.

I also think post-GameCube Nintendo had the wrong reasons in mind for why they deemphasized on pushing the technological envelope. The Wii was more of a lightning in a bottle trendy kind of console rather than something that felt like an organic success such as the PS2 the previous generation which was also lacking in power but made up for it with incredible exclusives and practical uses as a media player. The motion control craze was just a fad that was only interesting for around maybe 1 or two years and wore out its welcome by the time Sony and Microsoft answered to it.

At this point if Series S is everything it's cracked up to be, the only real incentive I see to buying a Switch as a second console would be if you just really like Nintendo's exclusives. The Switch Lite will be handheld only and that's great, but it puts the flagship Switch in a much more interesting spot as a result next to something as tempting as what is essentially an alternative cheaper next-gen console that will allow you to play the large majority of current and upcoming games.

Edited on by TheFrenchiestFry

TheFrenchiestFry

Switch Friend Code: SW-4512-3820-2140 | My Nintendo: French Fry

JaxonH

@TheFrenchiestFry
There's no demand for a no frills Nintendo console. At that point, they might be able to run the games but nobody is going to buy them, aside from the small faithful following.

The reason Switch is so successful is specifically because its hybrid. Deviating from that wont just alienate some people, it'll alienate the vast majority. Yes, that means it wont ever get full parity support, but that comes with the territory, and everyone understands that. Doesnt mean EVERY game wont be able to run. The support Switch has received has been nuts compared to past Nintendo platforms. And a Switch 2, even at the power of X1, will close the gap even further. Sure, there will still be some games that cant run but the number will be far less than the number now on the current model.

It only gets better from here, as power consoles are fast approaching a very real mathematical limit. Essentially just increasing resolution, raytracing, etc. All Switch needs to do is run a version in full 720p handheld, 1080p docked at solid 30fps. Guaranteed theres not a single next gen game that couldn't do at least that on the VCR Xbox One.

And with the likelihood of DLSS integration next gen thanks to Nvidia technology, provided Nintendo does pursue closing the power gap, running every single next gen game on a hybrid at 1080p docked/720p handheld is a very real possibility. At the very least, the gap is closed even more and we see the % of games unable to run dwindle down even further.

As for battery, technology marches on in that respect also. Just like with the Mariko chip where we saw battery life double. Get better, mini-LED screens that have less power draw, splurge for a 50% larger battery, use a better, more efficient chip that sees a huge power increase, and leverage DLSS, and the next Switch could be on par with X1 with better battery life than the original Switch model. It's not going to get worse, it's going to get better. We're about to see the rise of true hybrid gaming that can actually run the majority of PS5/XSX game without sacrificing HD resolution.

Cloud gaming is just a fill in for games that otherwise couldnt run, and are obviously for Switch only gamers. It's not going to suddenly take over. Especially if the next Switch does what I think it will, and what the evidence is suggesting it will.

I also dont think Series S will have any effect on Switch. PS4 and X1 have been on sale sub-$300 for years, and people still buy Switch. Whatever the reasoning, people still choose Switch. I dont see that changing any time soon, $300 Series S or not. Especially given its low storage and digital only restriction, and the fact Switch will likely see price drops next year too. A $149.99 Switch Lite is gonna mop floors.

Edited on by JaxonH

All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Wages of sin is death. Romans

God so loved the world He sent His only Son- whoever believes on Him has eternal life. Unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Whoever believes, rivers of living water flow within them. John

link3710

@TheFrenchiestFry Thats why Nintendo needs to focus on solutions that bring power hungry games over... While consuming less power. Things like DLSS 2.0, MiniLED/MicroLED, reduced transistor size, and other advancements that can cause significant reductions in the power they consume to do their current tasks are what'll be necessary to allow for them to push past that battery length barrier. As long as they can manage next gen games at 540p, (which isn't out of the question) DLSS 2.0 could create a near perfect 1080p image from that. Below that res DLSS falls off though, so that really needs to be a minimum.

I definitely think it'd be possible to put together something that's impressive on the right budget for the Switch's successor but it won't be easy to engineer.

Edited on by link3710

link3710

Grumblevolcano

@JaxonH Performance on the OG XB1 is really rough for games released after 2017 (I still have one). For the Switch problems to be resolved natively, you'd need somewhere between PS4 and PS4 Pro power which I'd imagine would be possible eventually though don't have a clue how long it would take for technology to get that advanced.

Edited on by Grumblevolcano

Grumblevolcano

Switch Friend Code: SW-2595-6790-2897 | 3DS Friend Code: 3926-6300-7087 | Nintendo Network ID: GrumbleVolcano

TheFrenchiestFry

@Grumblevolcano Considering Nintendo's next console is probably not coming out for at least another 2 or 3 years perhaps it'll be more technologically feasible then, but that's assuming they even do the hybrid thing again. I'd imagine Nintendo being as constantly innovative and experimental as they are will probably do something different next time since they're clearly a company that cares a lot more about each console having a distinct identity, even dating back to when they were pushing things technologically.

Like GameCube was in between PS2 and Xbox, but people also remember the design as being very distinctly Nintendo, as well as for its extremely unique lineup of exclusives.

Edited on by TheFrenchiestFry

TheFrenchiestFry

Switch Friend Code: SW-4512-3820-2140 | My Nintendo: French Fry

JaxonH

Nintendo sticks with what works. They dont have two platforms anymore. They unified. Which means they're definitely not going to roll the dice when they have a perfectly suitable, highly sought after winning formula that has brought them tsunami levels of success. After all, this is what they were going for all along. Be it GameCube/GBA connectivity and a handle on the GC, to the Wii U with it's off TV play. Switch is the final form of Nintendo experimentation. This is it. They've finally found it, and they know it.

Edited on by JaxonH

All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Wages of sin is death. Romans

God so loved the world He sent His only Son- whoever believes on Him has eternal life. Unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Whoever believes, rivers of living water flow within them. John

link3710

@JaxonH There is one thing to take into account though. DLSS 2.0 720p is native 360p, and well... It's okay. But there's definitely serious issues at that res. Chances are mobile mode would still have to target 480p, preferably 540p

As an aside, if we got a successor in 3 years, I'd expect it to be something like this.
8 GB RAM, DDR5 - 1.5GB reserved for OS.
Nvidia custom SOC, built for BC with Tegra X1 and taking some features from Tegra X2 and Xavier, but not quite either. Will likely be billed as part of the X2 family.
AI Cores for DLSS 2.0
GPU at 1.4 TFlops (same as both Xavier and Xbox One)

link3710

JaxonH

@link3710
As long as they can hit 540p theyll be golden. They can then super sample down to 720p and have a better 720p image than native for handheld play. But even 360p with DLSS could look really, really similar to 720p.

It's absolutely imperative Nintendo gets Tensor Cores added to the next gen Switch. Your specs seem reasonable and achievable.

Edited on by JaxonH

All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Wages of sin is death. Romans

God so loved the world He sent His only Son- whoever believes on Him has eternal life. Unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Whoever believes, rivers of living water flow within them. John

Haruki_NLI

Ah yes. The Tegra X1.

That 7byear old SoC released in 2015.

Wait that's not 7...

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TheFrenchiestFry

@Haruki_NLI I'm pretty sure the X1 was technically first introduced for use in the original NVIDIA Shield Portable that came out in 2013

I think the Switch SoC is based on one of the Shield TV models that came out around 2015 or 2016. It's still got a lot more in common with Android tablets regardless spec wise compared to the actual gaming consoles

TheFrenchiestFry

Switch Friend Code: SW-4512-3820-2140 | My Nintendo: French Fry

Ralizah

Nintendo didn't merge their development resources in preparation for Switch just to unmerge them again for some subsequent console that goes back to the previous status quo. Moreover, Nintendo clearly doesn't have the capability to fully support two HD platforms at the same time.

Future Nintendo consoles will almost certainly be hybrids. Anything else is foolishness. It's time to cease experimenting (large-scale experimentation, anyway, where the consoles change radically between generations to accommodate different gimmicks) and start iterating.

Currently Playing: Advance Wars 1 + 2: Re- Boot Camp (NS)

link3710

@TheFrenchiestFry Technically, since the revision in 2019, the Switch has used the Tegra X1+, a variant which dropped from 20nm to 16nm architecture and is about 30% faster than the base X1 if it's uncapped, and uses DDR4 memory instead of DDR3.

I'm not really sure how much of those new features are being used, but the SOC did definitely receive some QoL adjustments for what it's worth.

Interestingly enough the X1+ is only used in the Switch originally and later replaced the original in the Android TV, and was likely made specifically by Nintendo's request. It also includes basically all the improvements of the Tegra X2 over the X1. As such, it's more in line with a 2017 chip in newer revisions than the original 2013 one.

Edited on by link3710

link3710

TheFrenchiestFry

@link3710 The Mariko chip I heard had higher clock speeds and greater efficiency in general that allowed it to have substantially better battery life than even the Switch Lite which came out afterwards. I think they both share the DDR4 memory component though

I think ideally a Pro revision would probably use either another revised X1 or potentially X2. I don't see them going all the way and just stuffing that new Xavier chip though. I doubt Switch Pro will be that much of an upgrade, probably something more incremental

TheFrenchiestFry

Switch Friend Code: SW-4512-3820-2140 | My Nintendo: French Fry

Magician

If NVIDIA and Nintendo didn't go straight from the Tegra X1 to the Tegra Xavier...I'd be surprised.

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JaxonH

@TheFrenchiestFry
Switch Lite also uses Mariko.

But because it's a smaller system, they had to reduce battery size, which is why it doesnt get as good battery life as the normal v2 Switch. But it made the Switch Lite possible. Before Mariko, a Switch Lite would have seen 1.5 - 3 hrs battery life.

All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Wages of sin is death. Romans

God so loved the world He sent His only Son- whoever believes on Him has eternal life. Unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Whoever believes, rivers of living water flow within them. John

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