Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

@link3710
My thoughts exactly.

@rallydefault
I actually think the Series X is an amazing bang for buck as far as PC-equivalent power goes. At 12.2 TF, that comes awful close to the 13.4 TF offered by the 2080 ti. And with console optimization it will likely match results pound for pound. The only difference being, a PC with a 2080 ti will run $2k minimum.

And it still has the convenience of being a console, the new instant suspend feature, etc. for someone who’s looking to play modern AAA games with cutting edge graphics, the Series X and PS5 (but more so the Series X) will be a fantastic option.

Now, me personally, I’m not really interested, because 1 I already have a PC that outperforms it (even if it did cost a fortune in comparison), 2 most of Microsoft’s games are on PC now and even Switch, and we’re even seeing some of Sony’s games make the jump one way or another (Horizon Zero Dawn coming to STEAM, Persona 5 playable via RPCS3, etc), but more importantly 3 that PC can map gyro to any game, and I simply refuse to play games without gyro in them now. I can’t stand using the right analog stick without gyro when we have an alternative that’s light years ahead and makes dual analog alone feel like a barbarous relic by comparison.

Still, it’s probably going to be the best value purchase on the market as far as cost/power ratio is concerned. And I acknowledge that. It’s just that power (and even power accounting for cost) isn’t the only factor to consider. And certainly not the decision-making factor for me. Until they incorporate gyro in their controllers and it gets used in all games with aiming, they could literally hand those new consoles out for free and I still wouldn’t play them.

@JaxonH Has the Series One X launch price been announced?

@JaxonH
It's definitely powerful (Series X), but console-to-PC is never an apples/apples comparison like people try to do on paper. The most crucial part for gaming, the gpu, is where the difference lies that isn't always communicated on paper. The Series X is not gonna have a full-size Radeon gpu just stuck inside it; no console does. All console gpus are custom jobs that are nowhere near the full-fat versions you buy for your PC. It's gonna be a "custom" RDNA2 gpu, which is great, but it's not gonna be like the RDNA2 gpus you're gonna be able to buy for PC in the fall. When those puppies come out, you're gonna get the usual: a low-price, a mid-tier (which will be closest to the consoles but still more powerful), and a high-tier that will blow the new consoles out of the water. And like you said, a 2080 already outperforms these new consoles, and that's already been on the PC market. In all actuality, a 2060 overclocked can probably match or even outdo these new consoles, and those can be had on sale for under 300 bucks from time to time.

So yea, I have a Radeon 5700 in my PC right now, and you COULD be like well, that thing costs 300 bucks, and these consoles are only gonna cost 500-600 bucks (which they are, I guarantee), so there's like half the cost. Except you won't mention how my 5700 in my PC can be overclocked and is the full version of itself and not some custom, scaled-down (however slightly) gpu crammed into a console. (And just to note, "scaled down" can take many forms: literally/physically in the size of the card, removing bits of memory, relays, etc. This goes back to your conversation about heat dispersion, which is more a concern in cramped console boxes than large PC towers.)

I think we will see. a lot of changes happen with this new console generation. Physical won't outright die - even if the big publishers effectively pull out I think the likes of Limited Run Games will be enough to keep it alive just for a smaller audience.

I also expect to see a lot more vague release dates. By that I mean more of what EA did with Anthem where depending on what version you pre-ordered and whether you had EA Access, depends on how early or late you can play the game. I see that becoming the new pre-order bonus as special editions I also think will by and large become a thing of the past at least in physical presence. Not sure if it's just me but it does seem that there are much less of them now days than there used to be. Remember when COD used to do them? I don't think they sell that well in an age of everything being digital and people wanting to have less clutter.

I do expect to see prices on digital games go up, something that is already happening at least here in the UK. As physical sales become less important, there won't be a need to keep some kind of price comparison so they'll be free to up the initial launch price because they know damn well people may moan but ultimately just buy the game day one anyway.

And obviously a much bigger focus on smaller unfinished online only games like Anthem tried to be where some kind of roadmap is promised but only of the game sells well out the gate. Too much money to be made from these types of games even if most fail, and you don't need to worry about hiring as many writers and loads of actors etc that are required for single player games.

@FragRed
For sure. The "future" as the big boys see it (profit-wise) is these games-as-services like Anthem, Division 2, Destiny 2, blahblah the list goes on. Release something that's 50% finished and maybe try to garner initial goodwill by only charging 40-50 bucks instead of 60, but then charge for 20-dollar expansions numerous times (as well as microtransactions) as you work over the course of years to actually complete the game.

@rallydefault It definitely is a scary thought. Wasn't it Ubisoft that outright said this was their aim for all future triple A games? Though I find it incredibly funny that EA failed so badly with Anthem but then succeeded with the monster hit Fallen Order, as apparently according to them no one wants single player experiences any more.

@gcunit
I dont think any have been announced, but at most they're $600. I suspect they're gonna surprise people at $500 though. But I'd prepare mentally for $600 just in case. Better to be pleasantly surprised than unpleasantly disappointed.

@rallydefault
Ya, they will be more powerful. For sure. Even my PC is more powerful. But the argument isnt that theyll be more powerful than PC, but rather, that you won't be able to match the same power for the price, even after the next round of GPUs come out and prices fall. Even at $600, theres no way any PC built ground up could match it. I'm sure Digital Foundry will try to build one and determine the equivalent cost at some point.

The 2080 ti GPU alone is $1100. Even after it drops to $600 when new GPUs release, that's still more than the entire console costs. Not even accounting for solid state drive, housing, power supply, RAM, motherboard, CPU and fan, case fans, optical drive... even at bare minimum you're looking at another $500+ ($75 RAM, $75 MB, $75 PSU, $100 housing/fans, $100 CPU, $100 SSD, skipping the optical drive entirely).

Again, that doesnt convince me it's worth it. But for alot of others who can't really scratch together more than $500-600 on a gaming device, and they don't care about gyro (poor souls) or any of the auxiliary benefits of PC (which there are many) and are only looking to get the best gaming experience for their money in a graphical sense, they're better off buying the Series X.

I still advocate it's better to save another $400 and go all in on a $1000 gaming PC, just because the gyro is more than worth it, full button config for every game, expandable SSDs without limit of size or quantity, full GameCube/Wii/PSP/PS2 emulation (and even PS3 with games like Persona 5), multiple controller options, etc.

But I understand not everyone can afford that, and even 600 is a challenge for them.

@JaxonH
Right. I'm just saying it's not an apples-to-apples comparison because of the trimmed down version of lots of the hardware that goes into a console. It's not fair to go on Newegg and price a cpu and gpu and then compare that to a console, because you're working with moderately different components, you know?

For things that aren't much different like storage drives and RAM, console companies get massive discounts on those parts because they're buying in bulk. So yea, ultimately you're right in that building a PC yourself will usually cost more.

But I'd be willing to bet I could build something for around 600 bucks that could come darn close to these new consoles. You can get a decent case for under 50 bucks these days, RAM for right around that if you stay at 3200 (which is still by far the norm) and 16 gigs, power unit for under a 100 bucks, cpu for 150ish, gpu for 200ish, SSD for 50ish, and bingo-bango there's your system that can give one of these new consoles a run for its money.

@FragRed I think we'll see more subscription services too. Game Pass Ultimate and EA Access already exists and are already a big focus of Microsoft and EA respectively but I think we'll see stuff like Uplay+ expand to consoles, NSO gets more expensive, Sony does their own subscription service for PS5 and overall there's more game specific subscriptions along the lines of Mario Kart Tour Gold Pass.

@rallydefault
Mmmm... SSD for 50 seems very low. 1 TB is almost always $100+. So let’s go with that. So an extra $50 there. And while a few cases for $50 do exist, only at the bare minimum quality. But, I’ll grant you that because hey, if it works it works.

And you forgot the motherboard. That’s another $100.

The biggest stretch, I think, is the $200 GPU. Even a 5700 XT costs $350 and is less than 10TF. You’d really need a 2080 Super for a good comparison, and that costs a lot more than $200. In fact, I think the results will match that of the 2080 ti after everything is said and done just because consoles tend to get a little more bang for buck due to optimization. But I’m willing to concede a 2080 Super would be close enough.

At the end of the day, I think you’d need $950 to truly start to see equivalent results. Your $600. Plus an extra $50 for SSD, an extra $100 for motherboard that wasn’t mentioned, an extra $200 for GPU- and that’s assuming you’ve waited until 2021 when prices get slashed from $700 to $400. It adds up. Trying to build one now, would be more like $1250 (and btw, this is also ignoring the optical drive, which should really be included if you want to do the best comparison).

It’s just one of the advantages of consoles. As you said, they buy in massive bulk so they get parts way cheaper than you or I could ever buy them for. On top of that they sign contracts for the CPU/GPUs that gets them massive deals, and then they sell for a loss on top of it, counting on software sales. It’s impossible for you and I to compete with that, even buying parts wholesale.

So there’s 2 advantages to console that will always be prominent- convenience factor (which will be even more pronounced with that instant suspend Series X boasts), and cost/power ratio. Obviously there’s way more than 2 advantages PC has over console, plus, it’s not even worth mentioning because you know I’m all in on PC now once I “saw the light”. But I think it’s important to acknowledge the benefits consoles have (at least, for the uninitiated gyro-naive gamer). My friend at work just bought my old PC because I have a new one now, and I gave it to him for $500, despite the fact it cost $850 to build. And it was about on par with the Xbox one X.

@JaxonH
Whoops, yep, forgot mobo lol yea add 100 bucks for that if you want something mid-tier, 70ish if you're ok with bare bones.

Case for under 50 is no prob. The one I'm using now was like 40 bucks. Yea, the metal is a bit thinner than some bases I've had in the past, but a case is literally just...a case lol Just a mounting point for your mobo and fans (though you want to make sure the case has good reviews for usb ports).

For SSD I'm only going 250-500 gigs. I'm big on cloud storage for literally anything other than games. My new rig only has a 500 gig M.2 SSD for my Windows and online games and a 2TB harddrive for single-player games that I don't really care if they load fast.

For gpu I don't want a 5700, 2060 or higher. I'm only aiming to come relatively close to these new consoles. I think you can get that with even a 5500 XT. Just search for them on Newegg and you can get them on sale under 200 bucks. They're the budget end of AMD's new line of RDNA gpus. If you're really thrifty and good at sales, coupons, I bet you'll start seeing non-super 2060s come down to the 250-dollar range by the fall.

With those parts and some overclocking on ram, cpu, gpu, you can get a pretty similar experience.

@rallydefault
I get what you're saying, I just think if you're going to compare it should be apples to apples as much as possible.

The best comparison will be exact same SSD size, exact same GPU power (or closest to), exact same RAM, exact same CPU power (or closest to), etc.

Obviously if you start trimming in other areas (smaller SSD, less powerful GPU, etc) you can stay reasonably close while cutting costs a fair bit, but when assessing the cost/power value it's appropriate to be as equivalent as possible. Otherwise it's just not a fair comparison.

@JaxonH
If you wanna do exactly the same comparison, then yea, you can't build a PC for the same money. You're not buying in bulk to get discounts on the ram and storage like console makers do, and you're also going up against custom cpus and gpus that you'll never quite know the monetary value of because they'll never be put on the market as standalone things.

The X Series gpu is shaping up to look very good. though, I will say that. I'm reading that it's probably gonna be 12% faster than a 5700, which will translate to either a handful more fps at 4k or allowing for higher graphics at 4k, which is a big deal when this gen is gonna be all about making 4k gaming the norm.

I don't know. I'm not psyched about the new consoles at all. I'm just staying in my PC/Nintendo world. Only thing I can think of is if Sony goes back to their roots and comes out with some insane exclusives - then I'll consider a PS5.

@rallydefault
There’s only a small handful of Sony exclusives I really want- namely Persona 5 and Final Fantasy VII.

I can play Persona 5 on PC right now (and I bet it comes to Switch eventually), and Final Fantasy VII is a multiplatform title that’s only temporarily exclusive due to moneyhatting. It’ll come to PC next year. Not that I’ll play it then- I want the full game to be out before I play it. Point being though, I can play on PC.

So there’s not really any games that I feel I have to own a console for besides PC/Switch. Sure, there are some other exclusives that interest me- God of War and Spider-Man we’re pretty good, and Horizon, but I stopped playing them after a few hours (plus Horizon is coming to PC anyways). Liked The Last of Us also, but it was kind of like Quantum Break for me. A pretty solid game in a sea of pretty solid games. Something I’d buy if I had the console, but not something that I would buy a console for. So ya, there may be a few games I ultimately miss out on, but I’m perfectly OK with that because there’s so many amazing games that I’ll be playing instead. I can’t even keep up with all the Switch/PC releases as is.

And MS, they’re basically all in on PC anyways.

But ultimately, lack of gyro has become a dealbreaker for me. I just can’t do it. I won’t. I can’t stand playing games with those dated control schemes other consoles have. They might as well have you using dual d-pads it’s so prehistoric. Series X controller doesn’t even have gyro. So it doesn’t matter how powerful it is or how cheap it is, it’s not worth it if you have to play games with ancient control schemes. And while the PS5 does have gyro (in fact I think the controller is pretty awesome) Games don’t actually utilize it so it’s an utter waste. I mean, it’ll make for a great PC controller- don’t get me wrong. But as far as owning the system goes, there’s just no point. No gyro = no bueno = no buy.

The first console to add system level gyro mappable to the right analog is the system that sells me on traditional console gaming again. Until that day comes... PC and Switch will account for 99% of the games I want, all while offering better graphics and performance than consoles, better versatility via hybrid portability, and gyro across the board.

In truth, it’s why I don’t really play GPD Win 2 anymore. No gyro is a serious dealbreaker now, and even more so on handhelds. It’s still great for games that don’t require aiming (like JRPGs) but so many of the games I could run on the Win 2 are now out on Switch or coming soon anyways.

@JaxonH
Yea, I find very little reason, especially with Microsoft almost all on PC as well.

I am glad I have my old PS4 for stuff like FF7 Remake and Last of Us (one of my favorite games). I have like 5 hours in God of War and it's just not clicking for me. I'm a much bigger fan of the original games. This one just kind of feels like it was given the "modern action adventure game" treatment with requisite combat feel and all that.

Nintendo's games and approach to gaming is just so fresh to me. I really don't care how much power the new consoles are getting if the games either suck or are the same ol' contemporary game design that I can't stand.

@rallydefault
Switch (and to a lesser extent, PC) has taught me patience.

I used to buy any game that came to another system initially because I thought “Oh, well I guess I have to play it on this system” even if I would have preferred playing on a different platform. Then a year later it would release on Switch, or PC, or sometimes both. Over and over and over again this happened, and every time I would double or triple dip. It got so bad that 80% of the games I was buying on PS4/X1 wound up landing on Switch or PC afterward.

And that has taught me to be patient and just wait for the game to come to the platform I really want to play it on. And that has helped make it easier to accept not buying any other console for this next generation. Because a lot of games get timed exclusivities or late ports, or, as we’re now seeing, are making their way to PC or Switch despite being originally exclusive or by historical precedent (Ori on Switch, Cuphead on Switch, Horizon Zero Dawn on PC, Death Stranding on PC, Final Fantasy VII will 100% come to PC, Valkyria Chronicles 1/4 on Switch, Dragon Quest Builders 1/2 on Switch, Ni No Kuni on Switch/PC, Legend of Heroes 3/4 on Switch/PC, YS VIII on Switch/PC, Yakuza on PC, Catherine Full Body on Switch, Final Fantasy X/X-2 and XII on Switch/PC, Nioh on PC and certainly Nioh 2 is next, etc)

It all comes to Switch and PC. And I’m betting that trend only increases.

And even patience with regard to Epic Store exclusivity. Borderlands 3 came over to STEAM. Control is coming to STEAM. I’m not buying anywhere other than STEAM, because I’ve learned to be patient and wait for the platform I really want to own it on. If it ain’t on STEAM, I’m not buying (as far as PC releases go).

For me, I'm skewing more towards my XB1 but that is a result of my Switch backlog being rather limited and the next upcoming Switch game I'm looking forward to being over a month away meanwhile on the XB1 front I have a massive backlog. Pretty much 2019 all over again but this time with Q3 and Q4 being completely unknown instead of mostly known.

Anyway in other news, the mythical 10.0 update is out now. Adds AC icons, the ability to move games/updates/DLC between system memory and microSD card. Also the option to remap controller buttons.

@Grumblevolcano
Wait, say what?!!!

I can remap buttons on a system level?!!

I can finally move games between the system and SD without redownloading?

FINALLY!!!

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System undergoing maintenance. We’re sorry for the inconvenience. Please try again later.

Grrr.

@JaxonH
I think that will remain true until a good year or so into the next "gen." I do the same thing. Like when the Spyro remakes came out, I wanted to get it day one, but I knew that game would eventually come to Switch (I mean...3D platformer...you're crazy if you don't put your game on Switch), and I much prefer having anything on Switch for the portability.

I do think once we get a year or so into the next gen and developers have well and truly moved to the beefier hardware, AAA ports to the Switch will become exponentially tougher for anything moderately demanding. But by that point we'll probably be getting teases about Switch 2 or whatever they're gonna do.

(On that note - I read in a review that Ori and Will of the Wisps was nearly unplayable on regular Xbox One/One S without a patch. Framerate was horrendous with lots of stutters. I wonder if that had to do with lack of power or something else, because I'm really hoping that game comes to Switch.)