Another old game from the WiiWare and 3DS eShop coming soon, this time Retro City Rampage DX. And you wonder why they're dragging their heels over Shakedown: Hawaii...
@NEStalgia
4k not expected to grow "all that rapidly"?? "the theater enthusiast crowd is early adopting"?? Dude, it's 2017, not 2014 anymore. 4k is taking off. You can get a decent 55-inch 4k set for around 700 bucks, less on sale. MUCH less if you want to go smaller than 55-inch. These things don't cost 1,000+ dollars anymore, not even near it.
All of Netflix's recent original stuff is available in 4k now. Ultra Blu-Rays are being made for many, many popular movies. And Microsoft and Sony are finally dipping their toes into what-will-soon-be the present base level of entertainment spec.
You guys can put your blinders on as much as you want, but you're fools if you're unwilling to see the forest for the trees.
@rallydefault Game developers will have a higher chance to go bankrupt. Nowadays, game developing isn't cheap because of advancing technology, and 4K gaming is no different. More resources = higher development cost. If that game fails, then so does the developers.
Making promise is easy. The hard part is keeping it.
Switch Friend Code: SW-3533-1743-6611 | My Nintendo: azooooz
@rallydefault Hmm...you sound like you're talking more in hope than expectation. HD is the industry standard - the basic & most popular format. 4K...isn't. What happens when 8K hits the market? Do you expect 4K to become the norm? ..it won't. HD will remain, 4K will become obsolete & 8K will take over the high-end market. Unless the average TV channel becomes '4K+ only', forcing people to upgrade to a new minimum standard, it'll remain niche. For something to become the new standard, it takes Governments to convince entire populations to upgrade (each time with diminishing gains) - and that kind of thing has only happened twice since the TV was invented (B&W to CRT, CRT to digital/HD)...I doubt there is any appetite to discard HD any time soon - and even less appetite to make the soon-to-be-surpassed 4K the new standard - it just isn't going to happen.
@NaviAndMii What? You sound like those people that said 480p is the norm and won't change, and then the same thing happened to 720p. 4K TVs are being adopted faster than HD TVs at this rate. 4K TVs become cheaper every year. Why wouldn't you upgrade to a 4K TV if you're looking for a new one?
@Octane That's not what I'm saying - the long and short of it is this: the Switch, X1S & PS4 can be played on an average households TV set - the X1X and PS4P can't. The former trio can reach a wider audience and will continue to outsell their higher-end counterparts unless 4K becomes the new norm...which I can't see happening.
Switch sold 31,906 units this week in Japan. People getting their handhelds early in anticipation of Splatoon 2. 3DS also saw a sales rise thanks to Hey! Pikmin and the launch of the New 2DS XL model. That alone sold in excess of 40,000.
@Octane Well, to be honest - I have in the past upgraded my TV just to get the most out of my games console, so I'd probably do it again if it felt like a worthwhile thing to do - but, for a games console to really shift the market, it'd have to convince the masses to make the jump...I believe that we're fast reaching a point where anything above (I believe) 8K will be beyond the limit of human optical perception and won't offer any reasonable return for the additional investment - so my money would be on 'true 8K' being the next (and perhaps final) industry standard.
I could be wrong - and I'll be the first to hold my hands up if I am - but I think that Sony and Microsoft have launched these mid-generation 4K consoles as a stop gap to tide people over until the leap to 8K (PS5/X2)
TV tech is improving so rapidly that I can see 4K TV's being a thing of the past before we know it - especially if 8K is indeed the limit that the human eye can really register...we could be at a point in, say, 5-or-so years where 8K TV's are relatively cheap and offer 'maximum definition' - at which point I could see that becoming the new norm.
@NaviAndMii I think you're overestimating how fast the industry moves. 8K gaming won't happen on the PS5 and next Xbox. 8K TVs (at a reasonable price) is still a decade or so away.
@Octane Dell has a 31.5in 8K monitor (UP3218K) available for just US$4999 apparently? (quite what benefit there'd be to having an 8K display on a monitor that small is, I don't know - but, price wise, it's not too prohibitive - and will only fall further with time) ..but, yeah, to get the most out of 8K, you'd probably want a pretty sizable set - and they're pretty darn expensive at the moment! (choice: TV or a Supercar?!)
The Tokyo 2020 Olympics will be broadcast in 8K though (at least on their domestic NHK network) - so maybe Japan is planning on using the Olympic games to promote their cutting edge tech to a global audience? The image from an 8K TV is apparently of such high-quality that you can put your nose to the screen and not see between the pixels - and zooming in will not affect the quality of the image because of the extreme pixel-density...I just feel that, if anything, 8K is best placed to become the 'new standard', with 4K as a mere stepping-stone.
@rallydefault Most market forecasts are pegging around 35% adoption rate of 4k in the US (the largest TV market in the world) by 2020. The numbers are lower in the EU and much lower in Japan. Additionally the HDR tech isn't quite there yet with current "HDR" TVs is meeting less than 65% of the actual range target in the HDR spec, which will keep a percentage of the informed/enthusiast group (including myself) off the market for a number of years until they get that straightened out.
In the US, where broadband lags the world, the amount of people with the internet capacity to even stream 4K content (even HD content!) is below par. This stuff is AVAILABLE. It is growing. At some point it will be standard. At some other point it will be obsolete. But where we are right now is it's still a new emerging technology in it's growth phase, and far from standard.
There's a difference between a growing tech that appears set to become the standard over a length of time versus the rapid adoption of D-HD that was forced by governmental intervention in cutting off non-HD TV signals. That was an extremely different situation than the natural upgrade path to higher resolution. That was an overnight shift in the standard, versus allowing adoption to take place for a less essential tech over a period of time.
For gaming, HD is still, far and away the standard and will remain so for some time. The standard model consoles can't handle stable framerates at 1080p at the LoD most developers are using. Those will by (by far) the best selling models, as the mfrs own forecasts indicate. The premium models are for those inclined to buy premium TVs. Even there, the machines are going to fail to meet stable framerates at 4k. PS4 Pro technically doesn't even do actual 4k...it's a simulated 4k kind of like how the MP3 audio format heuristically presents "CD-quality" audio at low bitrates by basically cutting out the parts the human ear is less likely to notice. Heck, even high powered PCs can't handle many games with maxed settings at 4k with stable framerates. We're a long long way from a 4k standard in gaming even after the not-particularly-imminent 4k standard in video is achieved.
PS4 Pro and X1X are premium products for the premium (much smaller) market. Sony and Microsoft have even directly said so themselves. If you want to believe X1X is a new base model and 4K is an imminent standard, despite their own vendors and industry groups estimate, I surely won't try to stop you
@NaviAndMii 4Pro and 1X can be played on a 1080p TV just fine (and 720.) There's no HARM getting a 1X/Pro if you have an HD TV, and there are benefits (more stable framerates on some games using the better processing, or some games give you an option of either 60fps, or higher detail graphical effects and the same 30fps.) It's just that it's MOSTLY about delivering that 4k benefit, so it's on a minor benefit without 4k.
@Octane Be careful lf how you read the way people are reading/presenting numbers. Mr. Shapiro is peddling snake oil...of course he represents the industry group promoting the technology propagation, so doing so is his job. The numbers are real, but the conclusions he's trying to draw and how he's grouping them are dishonest at best. Notice, particularly, that his comparison vs HD cuts off at 2006. The DRA05 was ratified in 2006 with an announced NTSC/ATSC cutover for 2019. That 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 window was when HDTV sales exploded and the majority of existing TVs were replaced rapidly as people realized they had little choice. He's comparing the luxury 4k sales to what had been luxury HD sales, and insinuating eclipsing the mandatory HD adoption, while cutting off his numbers right around the mandatory part of that was ANNOUNCED. Given the year's he's showing, he's mostly comparing it to the 720p adoption rate! 1080p was EXCEEDINGLY rare, and VERY expensive during the time before 2007.
That's not to say 4k is doing poorly or won't become a standard, but he's going out of his way to move numbers around until they display an unparalleled freight train of transition instead of the normal gradual evolution of tech that it actually is. The actual industry/retail groups still peg about 35% adoption by 2020 in the US, less elsewhere (particularly low in Japan, allegedly as most TVs there are very new already.) Seems to be a pretty well agreed upon number.
@NaviAndMii Yeah....PS5/X2 at 8k would be pretty impossible considering even PC is nowhere close yet. That's a good long time away. (You'll see some super high end TVs around that time, fur the HT enthusiast market, but video at 8k would still be scarce let alone rendering 30-60fps at 8k (which would far far surpass the actual texture resolutions unless we want 1.5+TB game installs) PS5 would be a huge upgrade to just do actual 4k rather than pretending like the Pro of course, PC monitors don't even do HDR yet....and most TVs with HDR don't actually fully support HDR...it's a "half HDR, we'll take your money now and tell you you didn't get the REAL one until later" approach. As Sony keeps saying HDR is a bigger deal than 4k.....that's a problem for gaming.
Of course then there's the OTA broadcast problem. 4k OTA isn't practical. Not everyone has fiber plugged into their homes. Some won't for another decade or more. In fact many won't. that's a different ugliness in waiting.
All that said, this all started as a clarification on why the X1X has nothing to do with interfering in Switch's market. And FWIW, the Switch is known to be able to output 4k video (should it get a media app), it just can't render games at 4k. Amusingly, technically, neither can PS4 Pro.
@NaviAndMii
lol...thanks for that...but no. 4k is going to be standard for entertainment and gaming in about 2 years. In the modern era, 2 years is a LONG time when it comes to tech. What planet are you living on, man? It also sounds to me like you don't do much in the PC gaming space, where 4k has also rather steadily become accessible to more than just the top-tier enthusiasts. Most modern graphics cards tout 4k capability as their very first selling point. Your response is puzzling and sounds like it's being written from an extremely insulated perspective.
@NEStalgia
You're ascribing an insane amount of ideas to me that I never even said, and frankly, it's pretty frustrating. There's a difference between you using the charged word of "imminent" and me saying 2 years. BIG difference. (4k becoming standard) I also NEVER stated the One X was going to become the "base" model of the Xbox. I DID say that 4k is going to become the "base" or standard of entertainment in the next 2 years. Again, BIG difference. I have to deal with enough rhetorical twisting in my politics - I don't need it on here, thanks lol
And talking adoption rates is ridiculous. You can links articles saying one thing; I can link articles saying another. (I Googled phrases like "4k TV adoption rates, "4k TV sales rates," etc. and found a few articles predicting 50% or more adoption in U.S. households by 2020; a far cry from the data you provided). I am on Nintendolife, right? The site where its users pride themselves on NOT believing what most industry analysts like Pachter forecast for hardware/software sales? I mean... come on, bro, you can't have it both ways: believe whatever analyst you want because it supports YOUR wanted outcome, but toss out any analyst that says otherwise. So if you want to go into that mud pit, by all means, duke it out with yourself, because it's a useless quagmire of people interpreting data in different ways.
The Switch will live or die on its ability to be a handheld. End of line. Bottom of the story. Because as we move into increasingly demanding games on the other consoles over the next couple years, and more and more games are made with Pro and One X specs in mind, Switch versions will either be nonexistent OR "alternative" experiences due to lack in power. And no, that doesn't necessarily means 4k rendering. The Pro can't even rightfully handle that. But it does means rock-solid HD rendering for demanding graphics. And when 4k reaches a good saturation rate and gamers start to expect it... Nintendo's totally out of luck when it comes to home gaming. Solely its portability will be what can give it a chance. (Which I enjoy, for the record, and I do hope it is successful in the long term.)
@rallydefault Like I say though, Japan's state broadcaster NHK is planning on broadcasting the 2020 Olympics domestically in 8K - so, you're saying that 4K will become standard in 2019, then surpassed in 2020? Hmm..
4K doesn't solve any of the problems of HD - you still lose image quality when you zoom, you can still see individual pixels if you're too close - it's an improvement, but not a revelation...
8K solves both of those problems - extreme pixel density means that there'll be no noticeable drop in image quality, even if you zoom or sit with your nose to the screen - so, unlike 4K, it actually has a couple of huge benefits...and Japan are going to be promoting this new tech to the world in just 3 years time!
I'm sorry, but I see 4K as a mere stepping stone to get to 8K - it won't gain full market penetration because people won't see it as a big enough improvement over what they already have...as @NEStalgia pointed out, there are a few other hurdles to overcome before 8K can get there that I hadn't considered (transmitting an 8K signal, file sizes, infrastructure etc.) - but it is happening, it's on the horizon and it actually offers a tangible (and perhaps unsurpassable) improvement over the current standard. 4K is nice and all, but it'll be redundant before you know it...
Just for clarity, what I mean is 'which format will become the average TV set in the average household?' - not what people are buying, what they have (the average family only buys a new TV once every 7-8yrs) I'm not saying that 4K isn't good tech...I'm just saying that, for something to become a 'new standard' that the masses buy in to, it has to offer a tangible improvement - and I don't think 4K does & it's in danger of being surpassed before too long. There are hurdles to overcome for 8K but, if anything is going to become a new standard it has to solve the problems of the current standard - and 4K doesn't.
You can only talk to players when you're in the waiting room of a game or the game itself, and nowhere else, despite the service running through your phone.
Unlike almost any other chat app, if you swipe out of the app and back to your home screen or open a different app, you will lose the ability to voice chat.
Not only does your Nintendo app have to stay open for voice chat to work, but your screen has to stay on, making this a substantial battery drain on your phone.
@rallydefault I'm not attributing anything to you. 2 years would be imminent. The industry gives 3 years for a 35 % adoption in the largest consuming country, less elsewhere, and declares it a good steady success. 35% in one country is not a standard. And 2020 is not 2 years. We can agree it WILL become a standard. But if the people bankrolling a couple billion into this are very happy with 35% in the biggest market in 3 years, I'm more likely to trust their opinion than yours which believes "standard in 2 years." I'm not quite sure why you seem so offended at the idea that 4k will become a standard over a longer duration of time than what you believe it will, and will take longer for gaming.
I'm not sure what you're saying about 1S in regard to 4k becoming the standard though. If 1S sales far eclipse 1X sales as even MS expects, would that not mean that 4k is NOT the standard on XBox?
HDTV just reached 81% last year! Adoption takes time. The reports you're talking about suggesting 50% are suggesting the presence of 4k in 50% of homes. The 35% figure is the adoption rate of the total install base of TVs (most US households have more than one TV.) The 50% estimates also don't specify if they are also including PC monitors and laptops in that equation or not. By that standard, I already have two myself.
Again, I'm not sure why you seem so vested in this. The initial point was that X1X is hitting a different market with a different price point and doesn't intersect Swich much at all, and in fact doesn't intersect much of the industry itself at all right now. 1S is Microsoft's more meaningful competing product in that space. Somehow it turned into a weirdly impassioned focus on how you think 4k will become the standard faster than the industry thinks it will... Fine if you think so, but I'm still not sure how it's worth getting so seemingly bothered about it. The only argument here is about the rate of adoption and timeline for it to replace 1080p as the primary standard.
As for Switch, of course its portability is key. I don't think anyone, least of all Nintendo said otherwise. It really doesn't matter if you're comparing a PS4, a 1X, or a triple-SLI quad-Xeon....Switch going from TV to portable and back again is what makes it different and desirable. Always has been. Though since all 1X games have to run on 1S as well, Switch ports of the 1S version still remain pretty viable for the foreseeable future.
Forums
Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread
Posts 14,881 to 14,900 of 69,785
Please login or sign up to reply to this topic