Topic: Paper Mario: The Origami King

@dionysos283 yea you don't get xp but it doesn't hinder the experience by any means. The battle system is fun as heck, and when you nail some nice combos by creating a perfect line up, it feels rewarding. Its not open world though, so keep that in mind. It such a phenomenal game and I dont think its getting the credit it deserves( based on media reviews).

@JaxonH Believe me, I'm well aware of the anecdotes surrounding the development of Sticker Star.

But there's no reason to think Miyamoto is enforcing anything, or even that anything will change when he retires. More than likely, this decision is something that many of Nintendo's higher ups approved of together, since they likely want to maintain tighter control of how other developers use the Super Mario brand overall.

Frankly, we have very little knowledge about who influences what at Nintendo other than small anecdotes and public statements spread out over the years.

I think it's fine to disagree with the policies, but what is happening with Nintendo's executive decision-making is bigger than any one person, even someone as legendary and imposing as Shigeru Miyamoto.

The man isn't even directly tied to this product. You know what games he IS directly tied to, though? Breath of the Wild. Super Mario Odyssey. The latter more directly, based on what I've gleaned from public statements. So let's no act like the man is poison to every project he touches.

Sent my left joy con in for repair. With no back ups other than a pro and an 8bitdo I might fire up the old 2ds for some sticker star. Havent touched it yet but now might be a good time when im out and about on lunch breaks.

@Ralizah
He may not be poison to everything he touches, but I’d be lying if I said it didn’t seem that way, at least for the games we have evidence he is influencing at the very least. I don’t know of any evidence that he influenced the direction of Mario Odyssey or Zelda BotW. Maybe he did, but I haven’t seen any evidence of that. I know he’s the face of Nintendo and would tend to be in videos showcasing them, because the brands are identified closely to him. But the thing is, and this is just theory, but I suspect Zelda and 3D Mario have become so big and so well received, that he doesn’t hold as much sway over what those creators do. Whereas with smaller franchises that aren’t Nintendo’s golden child, so to speak, he can get away with using his influence to help shape games in the image he sees best. For example, I find it no coincidence Miamoto doesn’t like story in games, and yet just so happens to be the one to tell Tanabe he doesn’t need to focus on story. And I know there was the survey but, do you think Miyamoto didn’t weaponize that to get what he wanted? Cause that’s what it seems like to me.

And, this is completely unfounded, but I can’t help but wonder if Miyamoto intentionally handicapped Tanabe out of insecurity for Paper Mario being so dang good. Since it was credit to someone else, and good enough it actually outclassed Super Mario Sunshine. I read about how Iwata and Miamoto had this jealousy feud back in the day and, it just got me thinking. Maybe these developers have insecurities like that. Maybe Miyamoto didn’t like seeing someone else’s rendition of Mario outclass the mainline games. Maybe he felt insecure seeing the massive success of Super Paper Mario. After all, it was only after the series tripled its sales he paid Tanabe a visit with his “suggestions”. And maybe it wasn’t even intentionally malicious, but perhaps on some subconscious level helped steer the decision to intervene.

And maybe that’s crazy, but it would explain why such inexplicable restrictions were placed on the series handicapping precisely what made it so great. Idk. I’m not saying I buy into that but the thought has crossed my mind and I have wondered on occasion.

In any case, he made Pikmin 3 which was incredible. So I am more than aware he is not poison to everything he touches. And if he ever releases Pikmin 4 I’m sure it’ll be a masterpiece. There’s no doubt the man has the talent to make some of the greatest video games out there. But it does seem like his influence has served to negatively impact game series I love on more than one occasion. And I wrestle with that because I do love Pikmin so much. A lot of my feelings towards him are conflicted. On the one hand he does some amazing things sometimes that results in amazing games I love, while on the other, he does some ridiculous things sometimes that results in amazing games I love going MIA or being altered in a way I don’t like.

Ultimately though, this is my REAL concern:

Dan Adelman Interview:

In many interviews, youve spoken publicly about how difficult it was to pass policies and get things done at Nintendo. For example, in your Kotaku interview you said, “I absolutely did try to fight internally to change whatever I could”. In your IndieGamerchick interview, you said, “Unfortunately, it was hard to get the changes I needed because no one could hear me over the ringing of all the cash registers“.

But why was it so difficult to get things done at Nintendo? Is there a lot of bureaucracy, additional layers of management, and red tape? Is it because NOA offices are not very autonomous, and you need to always report to Japan (NCL)?

Dan Adelman:
Nintendo is not only a Japanese company, it is a Kyoto-based company. For people who arent familiar, Kyoto-based are to Japanese companies as Japanese companies are to US companies. Theyre very traditional, and very focused on hierarchy and group decision making. Unfortunately, that creates a culture where everyone is an advisor and no one is a decision maker but almost everyone has veto power.

Even Mr. Iwata is often loathe to make a decision that will alienate one of the executives in Japan, so to get anything done, it requires laying a lot of groundwork: talking to the different groups, securing their buy-in, and using that buy-in to get others on board. At the subsidiary level, this is even more pronounced, since people have to go through this process first at NOA or NOE (or sometimes both) and then all over again with headquarters. All of this is not necessarily a bad thing, though it can be very inefficient and time consuming. The biggest risk is that at any step in that process, if someone flat out says no, the proposal is as good as dead. So in general, bolder ideas dont get through the process unless they originate at the top.

There are two other problems that come to mind. First, at the risk of sounding ageist, because of the hierarchical nature of Japanese companies, it winds up being that the most senior executives at the company cut their teeth during NES and Super NES days and do not really understand modern gaming, so adopting things like online gaming, account systems, friends lists, as well as understanding the rise of PC gaming has been very slow. Ideas often get shut down prematurely just because some people with the power to veto an idea simply dont understand it.

The last problem is that there is very little reason to try and push these ideas. Risk taking is generally not really rewarded. Long-term loyalty is ultimately what gets rewarded, so the easiest path is simply to stay the course. Id love to see Nintendo make a more concerted effort to encourage people at all levels of the company to feel empowered to push through ambitious proposals, and then get rewarded for doing so.

Just finished Origami King. Overall I thought it was a really great game! Honestly, even as a fan of the original Paper Marios, this is probably up there as one of my favourites. I still miss plenty of things about the original Paper Mario formula, but there's still a lot to love about this game. I figured I'd list my thoughts about a few key things that stuck out for me.

Battle System - This ones kind of a mixed bag. I really like the concept for it, but I don't think it was executed in the best way. Personally, I don't think the timer is necessary, at least for normal fights. Solving the puzzle itself is a good enough challenge (at least later in the game it is), there doesn't need to be a timer on top of that. Yes you can use coins to extend the timer, but when pretty much the only reward for battles is coins, it feels pointless to spend coins so you can earn coins. Only having essentially 2 types of attacks did get a little stale, so I think they should have added in more attacks that require enemies to be in different positions, or allowed more freedom to how you can position enemies. It would make the puzzles more varied. There also needs to be a better reward than coins. At least give something that will make you feel like you're progressing when battling.

Boss Battles - I really love the bosses in this game. Even if the "Things" are a bit silly and overused at this point, all of the boss fights had some really cool mechanics to mix it up the fight each time. I also really appreciate the few "action" paper macho boss battles, they did a great job at keeping the game feel fresh.

Hidden Toads - I love finding these guys, it's honestly one of my favourite parts of the game. Seeing them populate the stands in battle and Toad Town as you find more is also extremely satisfying. The only downside here is the amount of hidden toads drops off by quite a bit later in the game. I don't want every location to have 50 toads, but most late game locations didn't have any. It would have been nice if they added at least one more place like Picnic Road later in the game.

Puzzles - I was really worried all of the puzzles in this game would he brain-dead easy, but luckily a good amount of them actually made you think a bit. It gave me some Zelda vibes, which is great.

Connected world - I much prefer the connected world style instead of individual levels, so I was very happy to find out this changed since the previous 2 games. In my opinion it just makes for a much more immersive experience, even if you have to do a bit of extra backtracking.

Varity of events - There's so many fun little mini-games scattered throughout the story, and I had a lot of fun with pretty much all of them. They changed up the pace, kept me engaged, and didn't feel too out of place.

Stellar Dialogue - Paper mario always has great dialogue, Colour Splash and Super Paper Mario were probably my 2 favourites in terms of dialogue, but I think The Origiami King beats out those two. Colour Splash was mostly silly, and the humor was great, but it was a bit one note. TOK did a great job at keeping the humor while also adding some very touching scenes, so it wasn't just pure silliness. I feel like it struck a good balance.

Overall I think the game was a solid improvement over Colour Splash. I think the only thing I liked better in Colour Slpash was the music. The music in The Origami King wasn't bad, but the tracks don't really stick out in my mind as some of the ones from Colour Splash.

This is my first Paper Mario game, and so far enjoying it.

Yep.

First thing first is it even Miyamoto (note the correct spelling) as he's the most known face people seem to randomly blame everything Nintendo does on him.

Ugh. Just ugh, dude.

Actually, you know what, let's do this: You've already labeled the battle system as "pointless," which initially struck me as odd because you haven't played the game, but then you attached that adjective to the phrase "no XP." Now, seeing as how you haven't played the game, you obviously don't know what the battle system does give you and why that is so important. But if the "no XP" thing is all your brain is gonna focus on and give importance, then no, definitely don't buy this game.

^Also to the add the game isn't open world.

@jump
Lol yea true, so double don't buy this game, @dionysos283. Seriously, you're gonna be disappointed if those two things are high on your list of wants.

(And, in my opinion, you're gonna miss out on one of Nintendo's best games this generation.)

@dionysos283

1) It's not really an open world adventure. The in-game areas are connected, but it's a mostly fairly linear game.

2) There's no XP, but battles are your primary source of coins, and you'll use spend coins on a lot of different things, so I don't really think it's fair to characterize it as pointless. Unless you view battles in any game without an XP system as pointless. You'll also sometimes need to battle enemies to gain confetti in order to advance through certain areas.

@jump
People don’t randomly blame Miyamoto for stuff. They blame him for specific things that he specifically says and does.

.

Specific? You literally made up an entire story filled
with jealousy and sabotage about him.

Edit: why are spoiler tags case sensitive?

I'm on the last streamer right now. Man, I just haven't had a game I've been so stoked to play every day in a long time. Haven't even checked how many hours I have in it, but I'd guess somewhere around 30, easily. I've been trying to get all the collectibles, and there are still plenty of areas I need to go back to when I finish.

Somewhere around the desert the puzzles started to get tougher for me. I'm not a visual puzzle person by any stretch, so I'll admit that sometimes I get a bit frustrated not seeing the solutions. I'll chuck some coins at the toads and then groan when the solution is presented and it should have been so obvious to me. Practice definitely helps, though.

@rallydefault I had the same thing happen to me later in the game, the regular battles started to become a bit stressful because I was worried I wouldn't be able to solve them within the time limit, and if I used too many coins to extend the time I would end the battle with a net loss. I really don't think the battle timer is necessary for regular battles, if you want to spend the time to solve the puzzle your reward is an easier battle, the timer really didn't need to be there. I think the timer is fine for boss battles, but regular battles would have been better off without it imo.

They do tend to re-use similar puzzle techniques though, so maybe if I went to the battle lab to practice more it would have been better.

@Cynas
I agree about the regular battles. I don't know if I'd totally take away the time limit, but maybe offer a really high-priced accessory that would turn off the timer for regular battles.

It does seem that certain enemies have certain lineup patterns, but not always. Goombas are almost always done by rotating the rings, shy guys seem to favor the hammer lineup slightly, koopa troopas are usually done by sliding the sides, etc. But nothing is set in stone and I do like that there seem to be different solutions for a lot of the puzzles.

Is it just me or does the Toad-town theme sound a lot like the theme from Wii sports? And that's no criticism, I like that theme!

@Henmii
I LOVE the music in this game. The Toad Town music is pretty much the theme music for the entire game, right? It's just different instrumentation but the same thing as when olivia transforms and you beat bosses and stuff.