Topic: Paper Mario: The Origami King

@Quarth lmao got the part with Bobby, right?

It was sort of a FF7-esque situation for me where I didn't really like the character, so the sacrifice didn't bother me at all.

@Ralizah I was moved by that part mainly because I didn’t expect it. I didn’t really like the character, in fact he was my least favorite partner throughout the game. But it was so unexpected in a game full of laughs.

@NintendoByNature Yeah, it hit kinda hard, which shows Nintendo sure can make relatable characters.

@Ralizah Yes, that's the part. I don't know if you got that little optional dialogue on the ship earlier, where B said something about his kind not living that long, but it made his sacrifice stronger to me.

@Quarth im with you!

I finally beat the game! I actually beat it Sunday but I haven’t gotten around to writing this lately. I don’t feel like giving a full-length review, but if you want to know here it is.

My review: 72/100

Pros:

• Simple but effective battle system
• Expansive and enthralling worlds with Lots of replay value and many collectibles to attain
• Lots of dark and moving scenes will satisfy TTYD players
• Comfortable controls are easy to learn and fun to master
• Beautiful graphics in most areas of the game
• Lots of optional items to help you with your quest

Cons:

• Olivia’s constant talking during the first couple hours can get annoying fast
• Lack of interesting characters, including partners, is a drag
• Gathering coins is incredibly easy, and most weapons are super cheap

Basically, if you’re okay with the cons I’d get it. Lots of hours of playtime. Thanks for all the help in this thread.

@Apportal I agree it was a well-done moment. And I think, via the ship detour and the dialogue on there (to answer your question, @Quarth ), they built up to it well.

So, based on your brief summation there, I take it the game has other similarly dramatic plot shifts in store?

I'm not sure if it'll appeal to TTYD players, though. If anything, it's already sticking to its guns more than TTYD did. If you played that, recall that they find a way to bring TEC back by the end of the game — the only character who stays dead in that game is Bobbery's late wife, who we never get to meet.

@Ralizah well, not as dramatic as the scene you’re talking about, but other characters pass as well, and they don’t actually come back. Definitely not as dark as TTYD but it’s not exactly “yoshi’s crafted world” either. In all, it’s not exactly like TTYD but it closely resembles it in some areas.

@Apportal One thing that annoys me in fiction is when people try to reap the emotional fallout of a character death without actually accepting the narrative consequences of that. It's why, when I see someone "die" or "sacrifice themselves" in a Hollywood film, I'm NEVER moved. Because I know, 90% of that time, it's a fake-out, so I can't emotionally invest myself in it.

So, good on The Origami King for bucking that trend!

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/paper-marios-produce...

An additional interview on what's allowed and what's not.

I'm kind of on the fence with this game. It's look great and the (sort of) open world adventure aspect interests me, but I'm worried about the pointless battle system with no XP. Any advice?

If he's giving an additional interview about that it means Ninty must have realised his original comments went down like a fart in church.

I think I'm missing something in these 'we can't do x, y, z' .... Ah, yes, a sensible reason & explanation for those restrictions! He might have been better off not saying anything at all about them?

People reckon it's because Iwata once saw a survey that no one plays Paper Mario for the story so he decided that all changes to the standard Mario formula must be related to gameplay. So you can't have a Toad that is different unless it's gameplay related, like Captain Toad looks different as he has a backup which makes it too heavy for him to jump.

Miamoto has forced his hand with ridiculous restrictions. You can tell he absolutely despises how his hands are bound and wants to let us know without sounding like he’s saying “that idiot Miamoto made me”. If you read all of his responses in totality he’s basically saying that though. He doesn’t have a choice. It’s not that he doesn’t get what people want, he’s simply not allowed.

Recall Sticker Star was basically identical to TTYD, then Miamoto happened. Ok. What changed? Adventure game, not RPG. No original characters. No changing staple characters. No story. You think that was his doing? He was making a game like TTYD before Miamoto intervened. This is all Miamoto, and whatever other high-level executives agree with him.

This is why I can’t stand Miyamoto and hope he retires as soon as possible. It’s not to say I don’t have love and respect for the man for all he’s created and done. But Pikman was his last great contribution and he can’t even seem to do that anymore. Time and again he’s damaged/ruined franchise after franchise. And I’m sorry, I don’t care how much of a pillar he is to the company or what he’s done to establish Nintendo back in the day- I’m not going to turn a blind eye to the damage he’s doing. It doesn’t earn him a perpetual pass.

That all being said, each game seems to have gotten a little better, and by the time we got TOK, Tanabe figured out a way to make a stellar game despite those ridiculous artificial restrictions. But just imagine if he didn’t have his hands tied. It would be even better (not even changing genres, just having more unique character designs, that alone would make a huge difference).

I did it after 50 hours I finished the game.
I got both endings, and have completely 100%.
(All trophies toads blocks collectibles etc)
I really loved this game and I’m sad its over, yes this game managed to make my eyes wet at times.
Its my second favorite paper Mario game and I’m proud to say, it’s my favorite switch game to date!

@JaxonH I don't know why people act like every decision made by someone in Nintendo goes back to Miyamoto. The man hasn't even been a producer for these games since Sticker Star, right?

You don't understand the chain of decisions happening at Nintendo. Neither do I. Let's stop calling for the heads of random executives with minimal evidence.

I would imagine these types of decisions have to come from a joint decision made by multiple people in Nintendo, since it notably affects so many games. I doubt a single individual like Miyamoto is solely responsible for this type of restriction set by a large company like Ninty.

Seems to date back to 2012 as well, so it's not something that recently happened either

@Ralizah
Not every decision made by someone at Nintendo goes back to Miamoto. Not by any means.

But THIS decision did.

We all know the story. Who was it that told Tanabe to change Paper Mario? It was... you guessed it- Miamoto. I’m not just pulling this out of thin air- it’s well documented. And while we can’t definitively say with proof that the order came from Miyamoto, we can put 2 and 2 together. Tanabe says it’s “no longer POSSIBLE”. Not “no longer my desire”. And when did this thing that’s no longer possible take place? When did the changes occur? After Miamoto’s Mandate.

So let’s see. We know, for a fact, Miamoto upended the table on Tanabe for Sticker Star. We know he, one of the highest ranking executives at Nintendo, “suggested” he make changes (which is no suggestion at all- is he really going to defy Miamoto? Of course not, but the fact he says it’s “not possible” just drives home it was never a suggestion) And changes were made. He now says it’s no longer “possible” to do those things. What other conclusion are we to come to?

No, I don’t understand the chain of decisions happening at Nintendo. Hence why I said “and OTHER executives that agree with him”. It’s not necessarily him exclusively (although it may be- we’ve heard countless stories of him changing the course of development for internal studios, And I don’t think they held roundtable committee meetings over it- he has clearly been given the freedom and authority to shape the direction of game development as he sees fit). But just because there “may” be others with poor judgement also doesn’t absolve him of his own. And just because I don’t know the chain of decisions in general, I do know the chain of decisions that happened with Tanabe, and I know Miamoto made him change course, and I know Tanabe says it’s no longer possible to do otherwise. That’s what I do know. But if it makes you feel better, I also can’t wait for anyone else who may have agreed with him on such restrictions to retire also. Because I don’t care who you are- I judge a tree by its fruit. And anyone who thinks it’s a good idea to tell a game developer they can’t utilize story, can’t utilize new characters, can’t utilize even unique characters, etc, and arbitrarily restricts their creativity to insane degrees while hypocritically allowing countless other internal devs to do those exact same things, they are not helping gamers or Nintendo.

So I will continue to stand on my opinion that Miamoto is now more of a liability than an asset. And it’s not just this one example. It’s many other little things added up that give the full picture. And to be clear, I didn’t “call for his head”. Calling for his head would be saying they need to force him out. I specifically said I can’t wait until he retires (ie. An action taken of his OWN volition). And, I can’t. That’s just the truth. He deserves his spot in the hall of fame, and I hold no ill will toward him. But objectively speaking, he’s a liability and a detriment to the creativity of game developers, nowadays at least. If it weren’t for Pikmin, I wouldn’t be able to name one good game he’s made in the last 20 years. He’s the reason Paper Mario changed and is artificially restrictive. He has gone on record saying he doesn’t want F-Zero to come back because he can’t think of anything “new” (as if you have to make some radical departure to justify something’s existence, a viewpoint I vehemently and fundamentally disagree with). He refused to listen to counsel when co-workers warned him people wouldn’t like Star Fox Zero’s controls... When a man has that much power and control, you can only hope they make good decisions. And regrettably, time and again I read about questionable decisions he makes, and it’s nearly impossible to veto him once he decides something, no matter how poor the judgement, because of his high ranking. I have read that’s started to change a little recently, where some people are starting to at least question his ideas, but as long as he’s around it’s going to be an uphill battle to do anything that defies his wishes.

Am I supposed to just ignore all that because of his prior accomplishments? I can love many of his creations and feel grateful for what he’s done in the 80’s and 90’s, while also disagreeing with him on other things.

@dionysos283 yea you don't get xp but it doesn't hinder the experience by any means. The battle system is fun as heck, and when you nail some nice combos by creating a perfect line up, it feels rewarding. Its not open world though, so keep that in mind. It such a phenomenal game and I dont think its getting the credit it deserves( based on media reviews).

@JaxonH Believe me, I'm well aware of the anecdotes surrounding the development of Sticker Star.

But there's no reason to think Miyamoto is enforcing anything, or even that anything will change when he retires. More than likely, this decision is something that many of Nintendo's higher ups approved of together, since they likely want to maintain tighter control of how other developers use the Super Mario brand overall.

Frankly, we have very little knowledge about who influences what at Nintendo other than small anecdotes and public statements spread out over the years.

I think it's fine to disagree with the policies, but what is happening with Nintendo's executive decision-making is bigger than any one person, even someone as legendary and imposing as Shigeru Miyamoto.

The man isn't even directly tied to this product. You know what games he IS directly tied to, though? Breath of the Wild. Super Mario Odyssey. The latter more directly, based on what I've gleaned from public statements. So let's no act like the man is poison to every project he touches.