Topic: Unpopular Gaming Opinions

@N00BiSH It's still pretty unpopular from what I've seen given that the majority of the community still loves modern Zelda titles. It's just a loud minority of people who genuinely don't like the direction the series has been headed in.

@VoidofLight that's probably true, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm a bit sick of seeing people debate over Zelda's current direction in some form or fashion. Doesn't feel like anyone actually adds anything to the conversation.

@N00BiSH I guess it's because both sides have been argued upon to death. There isn't really anything more to add since there's only three games to talk about at the current, and the rest of the series has been talked about to death as well.

The only way this'll end is when the next big 3D Zelda gets announced and people see what direction they're taking the series. Only for the cycle to continue with the game feeling as if it's just copying and pasting old references to previous games whilst also not committing fully to any of the concepts it presents and somehow shooting itself in the foot mechanically. Either that, or killing the lore once again and killing off all that remains of the Zelda lore enthusiasts (which are dwindling in numbers anyways).

I feel like if you wander forums you can find plenty of all 8 combinations of possible opinions on the recent Zelda games:

BotW +/-
TotK +/-
EoW +/-

Personally, I wasn't a super fan of BotW, am currently undecided on TotK, and EoW is everything I ever wanted in a Zelda game so I guess I am either --+ or -++. Loving 1 of BotW and TotK but not both seems common and opinion on BotW/TotK seems somewhat independent of opinion on EoW since some people just like 2D or 3D games better. And there are definitely plenty of people who love or hate all of them.

Yeah, I'm in the weird space of generally being +-+. Tears Of The Kingdom was such a letdown for me that it left me wondering if I was just ideologically against open Zelda, but then I came away loving Echoes so I think it's just that Tears Of The Kingdom specifically didn't do anything for me. I think Zelda as a series is now in the same position as something like Sonic or the Mario RPGs where the fandom is so fractured between a number of different iterations that we'll probably never get another entry that pleases everyone.

One of my largest gripes with modern Zelda is that the side content is completely meaningless. It isn't really rewarding to do, and a lot of the time the rewards you get for doing it aren't great. BotW and TotK are full of pointless rewards that do absolutely nothing and hold no point. EoW keeps giving you smoothie items that become completely pointless after a while. It creates an off feeling that I genuinely can't bring myself to enjoy.

If I could interject, I think the largest reason for this Zelda debate and the reason most conversations are so non-productive boils down to the dreaded personal preference. Because there really can never be any valid argument for "open world is objectively better than linear" or "linear is objectively better than open world" because they're so inherently different. I never like Zelda before Botw. And I still vastly prefer the open-ended style. However, I understand that many out there don't really like open world games (especially of the extremely open variety Zelda is.) And this is the thing. This debate will always come down to what style people prefer, which is why I think so many struggle to discuss it, because they're unwilling to see it from someone else's perspective. (At least that was the case for myself, I could be way off for everyone else lol.)

For me, I'm tired of Open World games. Everything has to be open world now, and it really hinders what type of experience you can have. Especially in regards to story- where the Open World basically forces you to have a non-linear narrative.

@VoidofLight That interview with Eiji Aonuma where he basically implies people who don't like open world are stupid and that Zelda will stick with open world forever still scares me. The fact that Echoes of Wisdom was fairly linear even though it is technically open world reassured me a little bit, but not for the 3D games.

@FishyS That interview felt like the man is going off the deep end. Made me seriously see that the devs of this series are pretty much only seeing extremes and not nuance. There's a way to do a good "Open world" Zelda with a more linear path. Link Between Worlds is probably the best showcase of that (and it's the first open world Zelda by technicality). The item rental system allows freedom while still making the game feel pretty challenging on it's own right. It still feels like there's something to progress towards- and that you're making useful progress all the while.

For me, Echoes of Wisdom sorta fell apart in terms of progression. The linearity isn't bad, but I didn't really care for any of the storylines happening in the areas of the map- and I didn't really care for the core gameplay loop or the side content either. I feel like 2D Zelda benefits more from having tighter level design, and that it felt like there was too much empty space in EoW.

Another thing that bugs me about BotW and TotK is that it feels like the experience is less hand-crafted. That version of Hyrule is probably my least favorite because of how bland some of the areas genuinely felt. It didn't convey atmosphere in a way that the other games did (outside of the more linear areas). The NPC designs are pretty much less wild and wacky as previous games as well- with most of them being Miis translated into the game's art style instead of uniquely modeled characters like Granny from Majora's Mask, or Tingle, or the Ordon village people from Twilight Princess. We're missing stuff like Malo, and it makes me sad.

If they do another open world, I hope they take a more atmospheric route that follows the likes of Twilight Princess (which gives me the same feeling as Shadow of the Colossus in vibes funnily enough), or something akin to Majora's Mask with a hugely bizarre feel to it all. I don't necessarily want a dark Zelda, but something with more atmosphere or weirdness is overdue at this point imo. I also want a Lost Woods that's actually good again with the theme associated with it.

This is what I'm talking about. Make 3 Zeldas that don't conform and all of a sudden the moon is crashing down again.

@N00BiSH The issue isn't that they don't conform, but rather that the devs only see extremes. They only see either hyper linearity (Skyward Sword) or Open Sandbox (BotW, TotK, EoW). They ignore the two times they actually made an open world game that laid between the two extremes, and act like people only want the old games again.

It would be less worrying if Aonuma didn't put out that interview saying they have no intention to move away from the new formula- or the fact that BotW and TotK are the Ocarina of Time of this new generation for the series. That we're going to be getting tons of games in a style that some are already growing fatigued of.

It genuinely feels like the quality of these games are slipping- and I say this as someone who thought BotW was okay. I don't think the next big 3D game is going to get any better, given the dev's sentiments about the series.

Statler and Waldorf roasting Keighley was hilarious.

"Did you know that Geoff Keighley is friends with Kojima?"

"Yeah...but does Kojima know that?"

**cut to close-up of Kojima**

I mean, if that didn't even get a smile out of you, then there's no hope for you people.

@MontyCircus I love how Kojima looked taken aback by it as well. It feels like a good amount of that wasn't even rehearsed beforehand since even Geoff looked wounded in some parts of that.

Peoples keep arguing about this style Zelda games, that style Zelda games.
I personally prefer Dragons Dawn of New Riders for classic Zelda clones and Oceanhorn 2 for botw replacement.

@VoidofLight Here's the thing about that interview: it's not the first time they've alluded to shifting to the current direction. Back when it was first revealed, Aonuma explained how they've been trying to create Breath of the Wild(or something like it) since they transitioned into 3D(citing Wind Waker as a key example).

That, to me, says it all. Open air Zelda was never meant to replace linear Zelda - it was more or less the goal the whole time and you can see a lot of BotW in a lot of previous Zeldas(OoT's optional order, WW's great sea, LBW's items, SS's collectibles, etc.). Always there, but never fully realized until the time and tech were right. I 100% get why they wouldn't want to backpedal on what they feel is their most fulfilled vision.

And I get it - not everyone is going to vibe with the changes, as others have shown. The kids crave more structure and that's totally fine. But acting like the Zelda team is just going to make BoTW over and over again until they all retire is just the wrong way to look at it. Whatever the next big Zelda is, it probably won't just be BotW 3, but rather something that might properly merge the past and future together, without having to prioritize one over the other.

To me, it's like this: Breath/Tears are Galaxy 1 and 2. What happens next is going to be Zelda's Odyssey.

_{or y'know. It could be Zelda's 3D World. Both things are equally possible.}

Anyways, that's all I'm saying about this. Until we actually see a new Zelda in action, I'm keeping to myself. If this is still going, maybe consider making a separate Zelda Opinion thread or something, I dunno. I just wanna see less derivative Zelda takes here for a while.

@N00BiSH And yet open air Zelda can't deliver a consistent story or interesting dungeons. Instead we get mini puzzle rooms that are meant to take the place of well crafted dungeons, given that everything has to have a solution that can be cheesed in the player's favor. To the point where well crafted puzzles barely even exist anymore. Especially with what they did with Tears of the Kingdom.

I don't have any hopes that the next game will bring back more traditional elements. They've made three games with the sandbox formula, and Aonuma's words makes it sound as if they aim to double down and keep pumping them out similarly to how previous 3D Zeldas were outright copying Ocarina of Time's gameplay loop.

They're dead set on total and complete freedom, so the next games are going to just be that concept but done a slight bit differently. That's all I can see them doing at this point.

@VoidofLight
Just wanted to say, it feels good to read your opinions about Zelda.

Eh, every mainline Zelda in the past 25 years has had its detractors. I don't imagine the fanbase is nearly as fractured as some online discourse might imply. I do imagine having been disappointed by BotW, TotK and then EoW probably doesn't feel great though.

I do think they're due to mix things up again — as someone who loves both the old and new 3D styles, I my ideal would be for them to combine them effectively in the next title. Personally I find EoW got the perfect balance between linearity and exploration so I'm interested to see if any of that is reflected in the next 3D title.

Yeah, online discourse is loud, but sales speak louder. Not liking the newer Zelda's is an unpopular opinion. Lots of people love them and that's why Nintendo is going to follow that formula in the future.