@Andrew_R_2000 5 Guys making a burger... There's a joke hidden in there somewhere... @NEStalgia So, basically, the American version of progress is... regress?
All kidding aside, though, there does seem to be a MASSIVE difference between American quality products and European quality products, at least as far as I can gather from the couple of times that we've now had food-related discussions. Greenfields and Black Angus really IS high quality, freshly ground beef over here, and it isn't allowed to be sold in stores or establishments unless it meets all the required, and VERY strict standards, so no unnatural additives or colorants, to name but a few.
@ThanosReXXX "So, basically, the American version of progress is... regress? "
EXACTLY!!!
Somewhere along the line we took "new and improved", which always means "different and made worse, with less value" as a synonym for "progress" and ran with it as far as we could.
I suppose the easiest way to think about it is in the US "European style" is a marketing gimmick....and it always means "something really expensive and premium", and often times means "really expensive and styled in a premium visual appearance out of the same Chinese junk we were selling you last month." In food that often means emulating European format, content, appearance, product quantity, at a price actual Europeans would riot over (because it's European and therefore high end, it's something done for status here). Five Guys isn't European style though (much else in food, is)...it's a DC-originated chain (says it all, right?) that's SUPPOSED to be a throwback to 50's style. Except like everything we do it's the Disneyland themed streamlined corporate equivalent of 50's style in a polished, groomed, and manufactured ideal version without any of the reality involved, with automatic double price tags for the theme. And higher quality than the lowest quality competitors, but not close to the quality of actual 50's shops.
Or put another way, if actual Italian cafes charged what American cafes charge for Italian style coffee, Italy would be famous for it's tea houses.
Oh, Black Angus Brand(TM) absolutely has requirements and is a high quality product. But the only difference between Black Angus Brand(TM) and "the other stuff" is the company happens to be one with standardized quality control. The actual Black Angus breed cattle they hang their marketing on tastes no different and offers no advantage in terms of leanness or usable meat than any other market breed of cattle raised the same way. So yes, the vendor is a high quality vendor, but it wouldn't really matter if they were using Black Angus, Hereford, or Longhorn cattle. Better than Holstein - they're bred for dairy, not for meat attributes.
@Anti-Matter - For me, the actual food at Arby’s is merely a vessel to deliver as much Arby’s sauce as possible into my mouth. Did you ever have a jamocha shake, or did you get different flavors? I think they were the place that had an orange creamsicle shake when I was young that tasted vaguely like kids vitamins.
@NEStalgia - Blame accepted. I’m sure I’ve done something. Just yesterday, I misjudged a green left turn arrow, had a chance to stop, but plowed ahead anyway and did a jerkish, holding up traffic left turn maneuver. I don’t usually pull those kinds of stunts.
@NEStalgia I'm now suddenly visualizing a meat factory's conveyor belt, ground beef patties traveling over it, and then the alarm going off, and a manager coming in to scold the employee, telling him that he should have used the "European mold" to form the patties for this particular batch...
But in all seriousness, man... I'm sure as hell NEVER going to touch a Black Angus beef burger or steak, whenever I'll finally reach US shores again. Nothing of what you're telling me about it holds up in my local situation. Black Angus (which over here, is just a species/breed, NOT a brand) are a high bred, free roaming breed over here, vs the regular meat cows, that are just kept in cramped quarters, in which they can't even turn around. Black Angus cows have large pastures and eat specialized foods. Heck, even the grass in these pastures is of a higher quality than normal. I wouldn't even be surprised if they'd drink sparkling spring water, instead of regular tap water, like the normal cows...
@bimmy-lee Something tells me "coffee flavor" in the coffee growing paradise of Indonesia for which java was named wouldn't be a terribly popular product to offer. It would be like offering "corn flavor" in Indiana. Are people pretty much oblivious to the existence of coffee there at this point, @Anti-Matter?
@ThanosReXXX That's pretty realistic. The "European mold" would consist of 8 "premium" 3.75oz patties instead of 10 normal 4oz patties, and cost $4.99/lb versus $3.29/lb, and comes on a black styrofoam tray with a clever resealable package versus the regular one on a white foam tray with regular cling wrap. It may be sold in more exclusive stores such as Whole Foods instead of Walmart and Albertsons. Seriously, I'm only making up the details but the actual overall concepts are actually solid and real....it's one of those cases the joke is only slightly different from the reality.
I may have been unclear: The Black Angus Brand(TM) is more or less a certification vendor and distributor (probably same as there), and they do require the cattle to be Black Angus breed per their marketing, however, outside the company by that name having the requirement, I only meant there's no actual difference in the meat from that breed versus any other breed. If they renamed themselves "Super Beef Company" and started accepting any breed, it would be the exact same meat. But yes, regardless of whether they used that particular breed or not, the free roaming etc is still true. It's just that there's not an actual need for it to be that particular breed that's used. That odd distinction is pure marketing. If it were Hereford Brand(TM) beef with the same protocols using only Hereford cows it would be the same meat. But you can feel safe ordering Black Angus here, it should be the same product. In both cases it's raised differently. I only meant that the fact they raise them differently is what makes a quality difference - the actual cattle breed is irrelevant for that, despite the branding effort.
Feeding cows sparkling spring water? That sounds so European! I'm starting a beef brand, selling it in Whole Foods, and charging $15.99/lb!!
@NEStalgia - I’d tell you what kind of LAN I like, but you’ve probably never heard of it. Think underground, but then, like... three levels below that. You’re probably right about the Jamocha shake thing. The signature Arby’s shake in Anti land was probably neon blue, salted, and included a fruit I thought previously only exists in Hyrule.
@ThanosReXXX - I get that ampersand comment all the time. At this point, I assume it must just be me.
@NEStalgia I think we're talking past each other again, albeit slightly this time.
Allow me to elaborate on the factualities of the "over here" situation, since I can't say anything sensible about the Stateside affair of things:
Black Angus is NOT sold as a brand here
It is ONLY a breed
that breed is like cow royalty, vs normal, peasant beef cows (your basic, European white and black spotted cows), so it's not just how they're bred/fed, they actually ARE better/more expensive cows, basically thoroughbred.
Because of that difference, the quality in meat is probably 4 to 5 times as good/tender, and as such, obviously more expensive. (although not in equal measures: probably 2 or 3 times)
So, even when free roaming, normal cows will STILL never be as good quality wise, where the meat is concerned
According to strict European (or maybe even specific Dutch) laws and/or rules and regulations, there DEFINITELY needs to be a distinction for what kind/breed of cow is what. You are NOT allowed, under ANY kind of circumstances, to sell normal cow meat as high quality beef. You can label and market it as free roaming, but at the end of the day, it's still regular cow meat, and not prime beef, like Black Angus is.
There's no branding effort, as mentioned before. Black Angus beef is just a kind of meat, it is sold by various suppliers, each with their own brand name, which is NOT simply "Black Angus"
@HobbitGamer No need for sorry's, man. I was just slightly confused, but NES already cleared it up, so we're good.
@bimmy-lee All the time? You probably got one of them cheap Czechoslovakian keyboards then, huh?
'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'
@NEStalgia I’m with you on the 50s diner being the way to go. It’s about 10-12 bucks for the typical cheeseburger with fries at one here. The meat isn’t thin like at those fast food places, but not too large like many burger places now. It’s equivalent to a ground meat recipe I’d make at home, since it has the chopped onions mixed in.
I’m not too experimental when it comes to fast food. I just want a place that is reasonably priced and can give me what I’m familiar with. I’ve seen Five Guys but I’ve never stepped inside. It’s possible I’m missing out, not sure.
There’s also a Greek place with excellent Shawarma and a Vietnamese Pho place that are in the same 10-12 price range. Those places are honestly some of the best quality food around for the price.
@bimmy-lee I didn't know you spoke fluent millennial! That's totally radical, dude!
Yeah, i figure if the signature drinks here are all coffee flavored, and coffee is a fairly exotic import, then for anti, it's probably flavored like Indiana corn. . But yeah there's a definite obsession with eating blue things there it appears!
@ThanosReXXX phone typing sucks so we'll talk some more BS (bull statistics) tomorrow
"You probably got one of them cheap Czechoslovakian keyboards then, huh? "
He'll have to go Czech.
@NotTelevision Five guys and the like are certainly good, but still far short of the real deal and generally much more expensive. The little holes in the wall are always where it's at. Cheaper, better food, and more of it! The Vietnamese Pho places are starting to appear, but always in pricy new Wave restaurant format. The 1970s Chinese places are where the good food and good prices are! I was devastated when one of the two great ones closed. Owners retired.
@NEStalgia Yeah we have some of those new Vietnamese places here as well. Usually they have some punny name like “Pho You”, and offer all kind of weird options like roasted green pepper Pho and roasted tofu. They aren’t bad but I usually go to this place called Frosty’s which has been serving Vietnamese and Bubble Tea for at least 20 years. The price is better and flavor of the broth is more complex. I actually even prefer it to a lot of the noodle shops I ate at in Hanoi. Beef in Vietnam can act be quite rubbery, so I preferred eating the chicken noodles last time I went there.
I have a mixed track record with a lot of old school Chinese restaurants. I certainly like some fried rice and an egg roll from time to time, but I’m not a fan of all the varieties of “fried chicken and sweet and sour” on the menu. I guess the food most closely resembles a lot of the “Tea Canteens” in Hong Kong, but it’s disappointing to order Sichuan food like Kung Pao and not see a single peppercorn in the dish. I’m not a food elitist at all as I often get down and dirty with McDonald’s value menu and a bag of Utz, but I just think it’s a bit disappointing what the Chinese American menu offers. For a value meal with the whole family, you can’t go wrong with some takeout though.
@MarioLover92 Thanks, I'll consider trying Super Metroid on my SNES Mini.
I got my SNES for Christmas, I remember we rented a lot of games for it, I do remember Super Mario Kart was the first Mario game I've ever played. I know what you mean, I'm not big on sports either, but I'll play stuff like the Mario & Sonic Olympics and Sega Superstars Tennis. The fun kind of sports games, still need to get Mario Tennis Aces, had fun with the trial Switch Online had awhile back.
I never had PS2, my brother had the original Xbox at the time, and I would play that. It was certianly a surprise when Sonic came to Nintendo. Everyone I knew at the time associated him with Sega consoles. Fun part, nowadays I know more who played Sonic Adventure 2 Battle over the Dreamcast original, I've actually played the original game on Dreamcast shortly after launch.
The resident Trolls superfan! Saw Trolls Band Together via early access and absolutely loved it!
@NEStalgia Haha, thanks, but no thanks. I think it's safe to say that we've already established that what something means in Europe, is not the same as what it means in the US, and vice versa, in this case where it concerns high quality cow meat, so all we'd be doing is exchanging cow semantics. Your reality isn't mine, and I'm quite happy to say that I actually CAN trust that I get premium beef for my money, and not just "any cow that could be bred/raised the same way" possibly yielding the same quality meat, which is obviously never true.
That would basically mean that a street dog is the same as a pedigree one, which is of course also not true.
But I do have to add that perhaps you may not be familiar with box calves or crate cows, or whatever the right English term for it is. Like I mentioned before, it's cows of various ages, from young to adult, being kept in a one-way box, in which all they can do is stand, eat and poop, and nothing else. They can't move, they can't turn around, they aren't kept in daylight, and so on. And they get some kind of high energy/protein rich food, making them fat, to yield more meat, but it's just the super market meat kind, not the quality butcher meat kind.
And that's all there is to it. Well, over here at least.
@HobbitGamer Over here, the rules and regulations for human meat are pretty simple: it's forbidden.
Although in some cases, and with mutual consent, parts of the human body can be used as pacifiers...
@NotTelevision I didn't know you'd been to Vietnam as well. You sure get around!
Huh, I think I have better luck with the old school Chinese places than you. The ones from the 70s and 80s, or what I consider "The Asian Invasion" period (likened to the British Invasion of the 60's) all seem mostly authentic. It's mostly Hong Kong and Taiwan based mostly. Sure they have all the "fried chicken/sweet & sour" etc. But the core staples generally seem to be the "real deal" - certainly it's at least to a degree "Chinese American" rather than native, but it's to varying degrees, and I tend to prefer the more native choices over the Americanized fare. I'm not quite ready for chicken feet, but otherwise on the "not quite so ethnic" scale, I prefer the traditional dishes. My places use peppercorns, darnit
@ThanosReXXX Haha as it relates to cows, I don't think it's as different as you keep think I'm saying it is The main difference appears to be that there the government regulates beef varieties...here there is no such thing (which is probably for the better), so a company took up that role. Any place that says black angus, generally has this brand: https://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/ (Certified Angus Brand(TM)) which more or less is a certification company that does what your government is doing. Otherwise the product is basically the same.
My point was just that the idea that Black Angus breed cattle are special is absurd, no matter the continent. They aren't. If they are raised specially, that's the difference, not the actual breed. If Black Angus breed cows went extinct tomorrow and the farmers that used to farm it were to buy a bunch of Herefords instead, and raised them the same way, they'd be raising the same meat.
Factory cows are another thing entirely, and yes, that accounts for most meat. That being said, however, most cows are purebreds. Few would be foolish enough to crossbreed their cows, it would make no sense. Not even the factories, they are purpose-bred for specific traits that improve their value. A mongrel cow wouldn't be as profitable. So even the factory cows are generally going to be purebred longhorns, herefords, etc. Not so much Holsteins (the black & white spotted, which originated in NED) Holsteins are bred through and through for maximum milk output. As meat they're good for so-so ground beef at best. There are meat breeds and dairy breeds, and what's good for one generally isn't for the other.
If anything, the bigger difference is that it sounds like over there you guys may actually use dairy cattle as meat cattle, which would just be weird here. Sure it happens, mostly for bottom tier meat such as McD's or Walmart lowest price meat (got to get rid of the bull calves from the dairy herds one way or another, otherwise you're in trouble!), but not even in the cages are they intentionally bred for the meat industry. Factory and butcher cows are going to be mostly Hereford and Longhorns here - bred for beef, for better or worse. Angus is "premium" for no particular reason but that branding association (even in Europe, but you don't have it as a brand but a government certification.) But a farmer raising angus gets more money per head just because "angus" is associated as "better" even though it isn't - it's the farming process that makes it better.
I.E. There's no such thing as "normal" cows here. There's purebred dairy cows, and purebred meat cows. Mutts would be exceedingly uncommon to the point of error, regardless of free roaming or factory cage. The dairy cows (excess bulls, aged milking cattle) may be used for low price meat and food manufacturing grade meet, but wouldn't be sold even as moderate priced steaks/ground beef. The purebred meat cows are going to be effectively identical, be it angus, longohorn, hereford, etc. They may have somewhat different attributes, certain cuts better from one than another, and of course different farming needs in terms of ideal pasture, size, temperament, etc. I.E. if a quality farmer raised your T-Bone via a Black Angus, or via a Longhorn, you steak will be just as good if it was raised the same way. Being from an Angus cow doesn't actually affect it.
Though Black Angus cows are quite fluffy which makes them cute and endearing. Another reason they're popular is they naturally don't have any horns (cheaper/safer to maintain.) Though an Angus steer tried to kill me once...... That was decades ago, back before the farm there was 200 luxury homes starting at the low $700,000s!
EDIT: Though many of the breeds and dairy farming techniques used here were brought here by the Dutch, so I'd be shocked if it were much different at all there....
@NEStalgia Yup, like I said: your reality vs mine. Your picture might be and/or is valid in the States only.
I don't know how thick that metal plate in your skull is, though...
I'm trying to explain to you the FACT that OVER HERE, what I say is absolutely, 100% factual. I don't care about other countries, continents, whatever.
And to say that Black Angus, which AGAIN: is NOT a brand over here, just a high bred species of cow/bull/bovine/walking collection of beef steaks.
And there IS a big difference, as per what I already tried to hammer into your head over the last couple of comments. Maybe not in the States, or in your idea, but in MY reality, and MY world, it IS, period, which is why I actually also wanted to say thanks but no thanks to a continuation of this specific topic, because it's just going to be a back and forth of the same two different views/truths/realities/situations, which is never going to change on my side, because I know for a fact that it is true over here, and the same might be valid for you, so that's not going to change either.
This here is simply the situation as it is where I live, and there's no if's and's or but's about it: Black Angus need to be specially bred, and are subject to stricter/harsher rules and regulations than the poor, space-deprived ordinary cow, so they're not just ordinary cows with a different color and/or without horns. They are pedigree vs the bog standard dairy and meat cow. Think of the street dog vs pedigree comparison that I mentioned earlier.
There's also FAR less of them than from the ordinary cow. Now, that may be a situation that's artificially maintained by breeders and/or suppliers, keeping the prices the way they are, so I'll give you that one, but at least you do also get your money's worth.
It's a thoroughbred species of cow, that cannot and will not be intermixed with other cow breeds, ESPECIALLY not the ordinary home and garden cow, which is the box crate cow I was talking about earlier, that produces meat that you can buy at a massive discount per kilo at your local mega-supermarket dump store. There's simply no reality on this Earth where this could be anything even remotely similar, unless farmers and/or meat producing companies in the States are all lying through their teeth.
And if you even remotely knew the Dutch and their mindset, then you'd know that they don't take those kinds of shenanigans. Over the last decade or so, dozens of companies have been closed down due to scandals which were revealed by the public, and subsequently (and quite vehemently) protested against, to a point where the government and regulatory instances had no other choice but to legally shut these companies down. Meat factories included. Some of these concerned scams like cheap meat being sold off as more expensive meat, which seems like and appropriate example in this case, albeit that it was horse meat sold off as prime steak. (over here, it's forbidden to sell any kind of horse meat)
Either way, let's archive this one and talk about more entertaining things. It's weekend, and this week has already given me enough of a headache as it is. I don't want to get to a point where I would even prefer to be talking about trains...
'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'
Cows are the ones that go Oink, right? I love those things.
@ThanosReXXX I feel you about the weary week. Work has been a never ending stream of unmitigated consciousness from folks needing things. Folks that know how to get what they need, but seemingly thought requesting things from me would go smoothly. It has not, for most of them. Then executive team wanted input... I'm perfectly content with laying in bed tonight with some twizzlers, cola, and Fallout.
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