Wario, I see your six paragraphs and read you two. Seriously, you need to at least bold some key points or include a "Wario's Notes" paragraph at the end of your posts. I love our conversations, but I want to have time to read other threads, too. My post was two paragraphs at you and one at Dragon, really just combining two different posts in one.
But to respond to what I read, I see some big problems with the idea that generic consoles are bad. Yes, Nintendo has a specific vision that each controller and console is designed to fit within... but that is Nintendo's vision only, not the vision of third parties. The Playstation was more pliable for each developer's purposes. If N64 was not designed for 2D games, why include the D-Pad? Financial success doesn't really matter to me since I'm not part of the company, but driving away third parties does matter significantly. I'm only recently finding out what I missed out on with the Street Fighter Alpha series, Symphony of the Night (best game ever? quite possibly), FF Tactics, etc., and I have only scratched the surface.
The pay off for this bizarre controller and outdated media type (both financially for Nintendo, and the ramifications for consumers) really does not outweigh the downsides. Obviously, if you're in it almost exlusively for first-party stuff, then that's not an issue... but it never was to begin with if that was the case. But if every developer had a console and controller designed for itself, we've all be bankrupt trying to keep up with it. For me, I'll take a versatile controller with wide support over a specialized one with dwinding support any day. That is in no way less significant than what Nintendo is doing, even if the goals are different.
How can you hate a thread with information and pictures and intelligent debates and all that? Would you guys rather talk about Ponies and have threads full of spam?
my wii number: 8754-9981-5119-6538
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles number: 1290-4359-9435
PlayStationNetworkID: odd69
To the comments about Natal making you look stupid, people said the same thing about the Wii... and I still say it about the Wii. Whether you have a controller or not, you will look crazy swinging your arms around in front of a TV. Of course, some games like Warioware make that the point of it, but if you're playing something serious like swinging a sword or whatever, you will look like a fool, like it or not.
To the comments about Natal making you look stupid, people said the same thing about the Wii...
they were right! i always have to shut the window when i'm playing wii sports resort. it's just that the xbox has the potential for so much more stupidity now that it's getting your entire body involved. plus, you don't have a controller in your hand, so if someone does by chance see you through the window they'll have no idea what the hell is wrong with you. sounds like fun to me
Here goes... in my last abode, one time I must have played Mario Kart for two hours straight, leaning forward and fighting with my awesome pretend wheel, before realizing there where three nice ladies watching me through a window across the road, they even had a glass of wine each ffs. The ladies moved quickly when I spotted them, and I promptly closed the curtains in shame and didn't play again that night.
I play some third-party games, but I am indeed in it primarily for 1st party (easily 90% of what I buy), because I never even seem to get to all of those that I still have on my list, and then they're already out there releasing more. But I certainly agree that there needs to be at least one "generic" console with powerful hardware out there, it just doesn't interest me as much, and I have other reservations concerning the way Microsoft and Sony's game divisions are subsidizing their huge losses via other parts of the companies, in order to ramp up the hardware past its currently-marketable price point, something that fundamentally goes against everything I believe about products and tech (which I've ranted about before, so no need to rehash, even though I am warioswalls). In any case, there have been and continue to be great games on all the consoles, but Nintendo is doing something that to me is absolutely unique, and that would darken the world of gaming much more were it to cease than the demise of either Sony or Microsoft.
Anyhow, I suppose the original topic in this thread was not generic Sony vs. Nintendo, but the question of how much Nintendo has innovated over the years, and it irritates me greatly when someone will just point out that device X was already made by some other company in a different context, etc. Innovation is about putting together a well designed, cohesive product with a clear vision for taking its genre or subject in a different direction. You can have all the patents in the world, but if you can't put together a product with a well-unified form, functionality, design, and interface for a price point that will appeal to consumers, it's all just paper. Nintendo managed to do that worldwide with the Wii at a level of success for which any company would give up its entire R&D staff. The reason I bring up Apple is that the most closely analogous product in recent history was the iPod; the Wii made people rethink their idea of gaming and its role in the living room, just as the iPod (while not containing any one technical marvel) completely reshaped the way customers thought about music.
wariosnotes - Sony's a'ight, but there's no basis for begrudging Nintendo their well-deserved status as historically the boldest innovator in gaming, no matter how many unused patents or failed prototypes you dig up.
Nintendo does indeed make bold moves, but they aren't technical innovators necessarily. Controller design isn't exactly what the topic is, as far as I understood, but tech.
Nintendo likes to act like motion controllers that come after the Wii remote are copycats. Just because Nintendo was first to market doesn't mean they were the first to plan it. They made technical sacrifices to get it out there first while their competitors worked at perfecting the devices first, rather than adding the celebratory one millionth controller extension to rip what little cash was left out of our wallets and still end up with a rather finicky product, in my experience, that is not as capable as the other "controllers" will be (theoretically, I've heard disparate reports on Natal, but Sony's tech sounds much more... sound).
The Wii remote has had its moments, but it is not the alpha and omega of motion controllers. In fact, it is neither alpha nor the omega, but it is certainly an extremely important moment in the history of motion control as it was the first to gain popular acceptance.
TBH, apart from Sony's wand, which is obviously a wiimote ripoff, none of these look like rip offs. Sure there's similarities, but that's it. Just because someone thought of the analog stick first, does that mean no other company is allowed to use it?
So let me get this straight - correct me if I'm mistaking your argument.
You're saying that a controller that was press-hyped and patented about two years before the wiimote was ever revealed to the public is an obvious rip-off, yet controllers that adopted iconic input mechanisms from other controllers just bear a passing resemblance and that's it?
TBH, apart from Sony's wand, which is obviously a wiimote ripoff, none of these look like rip offs. Sure there's similarities, but that's it. Just because someone thought of the analog stick first, does that mean no other company is allowed to use it?
So let me get this straight - correct me if I'm mistaking your argument.
You're saying that a controller that was press-hyped and patented about two years before the wiimote was ever revealed to the public is an obvious rip-off, yet controllers that adopted iconic input mechanisms from other controllers just bear a passing resemblance and that's it?
Well, excuse me, as that is a fault of my own. As I mentioned, I hate Sony, so I had no idea they patented their remote first.
The best strategy in the game: go up stairs and pause balls.
No, the Playstation was not a Nintendo console. Sony was the one building the CD expansion for the SNES, but they built it, not Nintendo. They inherited the SNES controller design from Nintendo (adding the extra shoulder buttons that Nintendo has only finally caught onto with the Classic Pro and eventually the well-placed thumbsticks), but they inherited the CD architecture from themselves.
No, the Playstation was not a Nintendo console. Sony was the one building the CD expansion for the SNES, but they built it, not Nintendo. They inherited the SNES controller design from Nintendo (adding the extra shoulder buttons that Nintendo has only finally caught onto with the Classic Pro and eventually the well-placed thumbsticks), but they inherited the CD architecture from themselves.
That is like saying Metroid Prime series isn't Nintendo because Retro made it for them.
Nintendo did not build it, true, but they hired Sony to build it for them. What was supposed to be the SNESCD IS the PSX. Nintendo was (and still is) afraid of piracy so they held off discs for a while, and just told Sony to scrap it.
The Game.
Is it after 9PM EST? You should probably ignore the above post.
Nintendo was (and still is) afraid of piracy so they held off discs for a while, and just told Sony to scrap it.
I've always wondered how the industry would have played out if they hadn't jibbed Sony, and sometimes wish they hadn't. SEGA would have continued in the hardware market for starters. Microsoft?! Who knows.
@RWP Uh, no, that's like saying that because I asked you to build a chair, you build said chair, then I don't want it and yet still say it's mine. I didn't make it, own it, or use it. It's not mine. The Playstation is Sony's creation and Sony's product. It is distinctly Sony's. Your analogy is completely inaccurate because Nintendo does in fact own the Metroid series and did in fact publish the game.
@Machu I agree. They're the only two guys to ever get it right, in my opinion. I'd have loved to see what the two could have done together.
Uh, no, that's like saying that because I asked you to build a chair, you build said chair, then I don't want it and yet still say it's mine. I didn't make it, own it, or use it. It's not mine. The Playstation is Sony's creation and Sony's product. It is distinctly Sony's. Your analogy is completely inaccurate because Nintendo does in fact own the Metroid series and did in fact publish the game.
Did they develop the game? No. It wasn't originally Sony's console, it was made for Nintendo, by the request of Nintendo. At one point is was owned by Nintendo, before we knew it even existed.
The Game.
Is it after 9PM EST? You should probably ignore the above post.
granted, it's not sony themselves making it, but.... is there any doubt who's copying who?
and it's also not entirely clear when exactly nintendo created the wiimote. reggie said recently that they begin work on the next console as soon as the last is out the door, meaning that they probably were looking into motion control within a few years of the gamecube's release. it's entirely possible they still had their remote at the same time as, or before sony's.
A hardware expansion is not the same as a complete, self-fulfilled console. The Playstation did not exist while Sony was consulting Nintendo, and Nintendo did not actually own the hardware or they would never have let it go. They would have scrapped the design documents and left Sony with nothing if it had been theirs. But the Playstation's continued existence with Sony's name tattooed on the side proves that it is in fact Sony's, not Nintendo's. I would think this would all be quite obvious. It was a partnership, not the same as ownership. Nintendo asked "Can you make CD-based hardware for us?" That's it. That does not mean it is some distinctly Nintendo product. Sony came up with it, and it is Sony's. Everything that was Nintendo about it was removed, more was developed after the lapse of contract, and courts ruled in their favor.
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Topic: Nintendo's frustrating history of being endlessly ripped off: a retrospective
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